kl692
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Why No 747, A380 Or A340 For Air Canada?

Sun Nov 13, 2011 5:00 pm

I was just going to through my spotting pictures and it hit me AC don't have any of the mention A/C, is there a reason why don't have any? I know they used to have 747 in the past!
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VonRichtofen
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RE: Why No 747, A380 Or A340 For Air Canada?

Sun Nov 13, 2011 5:11 pm

They had both A340-300's and A340-500's until a few years ago.
 
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Stitch
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RE: Why No 747, A380 Or A340 For Air Canada?

Sun Nov 13, 2011 5:20 pm

They likely do not need the capacity of the 744 or A388. They are 77W operators, which are as big as the earlier model 747s they used to fly.

And as noted, they did have the A340-300 and A340-500, but retired them in favor of the 777-200LR.
 
trintocan
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RE: Why No 747, A380 Or A340 For Air Canada?

Sun Nov 13, 2011 5:36 pm

AC also had 747-400s in the past, albeit just 3 Combis which did some Pacific sectors. They acquired a few more when they merged with CP in 2000. The Jumbos were too large for AC's present day operations hence their withdrawal around 2003. At that time they concentrated their long-haul fleet on the A330-300, A340-300 and 767-300 with the A340-500s (just 2) in for the very longest services. The arrival of the 777-200LRs and 777-300ERs about 4 years ago led to the withdrawal of the A340s but the A330s and 767s soldier on.

AC, like most North American airlines have no need for anything as large as the 747, let alone A380. Also note that their last indigenous 747-400s as Combi models would have had a capacity comparable to a 777-200 in any case.

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saloman
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RE: Why No 747, A380 Or A340 For Air Canada?

Sun Nov 13, 2011 5:38 pm

More to do with the population of Canada being so widely spread across a large area. This has lead to direct international long-haul for most major cities in Canada. If the population was concentrated in one or two main cities we'd likely see AC using VLAs.
 
YVRLTN
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RE: Why No 747, A380 Or A340 For Air Canada?

Sun Nov 13, 2011 10:46 pm

AC did also have A340-600's on order along with the 500's, but never took them, I assume in favor of the 77W.

Back when the 747's were ordered, like many airlines they were required for their range and 4 engines, not necessarily capacity. Now with the ETOPS and the efficiency of twins for sectors over the Arctic & Pacific particularly in AC's case, the aircraft is no longer required.

The 77W/77L not only does everything AC used the A340 family and 744 better and then some, but due to the amount of cargo they can uplift it allowed AC to terminate various ACMI cargo agreements plus made the 74M redundant. They had a DC10/MD11 (from Gemini IIRC) under permanent contract at one point. Plus they lost the domestic Canada Post contract to Kelowna Flightcraft which reduced the need for cargo capacity.

I personally think AC could make 5-8 A380's work, but I dont think they would actually make any more money than they do with the current arrangement.
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Viscount724
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RE: Why No 747, A380 Or A340 For Air Canada?

Sun Nov 13, 2011 11:26 pm

AC has no requirement for anything larger than the 77W and even it is probably slightly too big for much of the year considering the extreme seasonality of many AC markets.
 
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RE: Why No 747, A380 Or A340 For Air Canada?

Sun Nov 13, 2011 11:52 pm

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 5):
I personally think AC could make 5-8 A380's work, but I dont think they would actually make any more money than they do with the current arrangement.

Which routes command the level of demand to make an A380 justifiable? Even as such, I'm sure it would reduce frequencies, which would not benefit AC.
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RE: Why No 747, A380 Or A340 For Air Canada?

Sun Nov 13, 2011 11:58 pm

Didn't AC get those 744's from CP?
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RE: Why No 747, A380 Or A340 For Air Canada?

Mon Nov 14, 2011 12:03 am

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 8):
Didn't AC get those 744's from CP?

They got CP's 4 all-passenger 744s. AC had 3 744M combis of their own.
 
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RE: Why No 747, A380 Or A340 For Air Canada?

Mon Nov 14, 2011 12:25 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 9):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 9):
They got CP's 4 all-passenger 744s. AC had 3 744M combis of their own.

Thanks, I did not know that, what route or routes was AC buying & using them to operate, Just the Pacific?
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RE: Why No 747, A380 Or A340 For Air Canada?

Mon Nov 14, 2011 12:42 am

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 10):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 9):
They got CP's 4 all-passenger 744s. AC had 3 744M combis of their own.

Thanks, I did not know that, what route or routes was AC buying & using them to operate, Just the Pacific?

The CP 744s were mainly used to Asia and in their latter years of service the AC combis were almost exclusively used to Europe.
 
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RE: Why No 747, A380 Or A340 For Air Canada?

Mon Nov 14, 2011 1:30 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 9):
AC had 3 744M combis of their own.

AC always used to send 747s into LHR (along with L1011s) back when I were a lad - were they 747 Combis?
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kl692
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RE: Why No 747, A380 Or A340 For Air Canada?

Mon Nov 14, 2011 6:06 am

Can we See AC Getting into the B787 in the near future? As I am sure sooner or later they gonna have to replace some of their Fleets!
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RE: Why No 747, A380 Or A340 For Air Canada?

Mon Nov 14, 2011 6:18 am

Quoting kl692 (Reply 13):

If I remember correctly, I read somewhere that AC have ordered 37 787-8 which will enter service in 2014
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kl692
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RE: Why No 747, A380 Or A340 For Air Canada?

Mon Nov 14, 2011 6:20 am

Quoting byronicle6 (Reply 14):

That would be a very welcoming news if it turns out to be true
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RE: Why No 747, A380 Or A340 For Air Canada?

Mon Nov 14, 2011 6:26 am

At the end of 2002, I flew from Vancouver to Honolulu on a 747-400, an ex-Canadian bird and I don't believe it was a combi...it was also used later on that same evening to go from Honolulu to Sydney. So that's one example of how some of those birds were used.

I did fly AC to Narita from Vancouver twice on a 767 a year later, so I don't know if they were used to Tokyo or not prior to that time.
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richcandy
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RE: Why No 747, A380 Or A340 For Air Canada?

Mon Nov 14, 2011 7:06 am

Quoting BAViscount (Reply 12):
AC always used to send 747s into LHR (along with L1011s) back when I were a lad - were they 747 Combis?

When I was a lad they operated charter services in the summer months from YYZ to BFS & DUB with 747-100/200 not sure which ? and L1011's. So I guess they had 747's that were not combis. This would of been 1987-90 sort of time scale.

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RE: Why No 747, A380 Or A340 For Air Canada?

Mon Nov 14, 2011 7:25 am

Quoting kl692 (Reply 15):
That would be a very welcoming news if it turns out to be true




Oh, it is true. I mean the AC 788 order. It happened during the "we don't care if we ruin the company, but we'll get rid of Airbus" management period (Milton, Brewer). I had a picture of a 77W and 788 in AC livery flying in formation set as my wallpaper for several years.
Now, when exactly will AC receive the 788's is a different story.

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 5):
The 77W/77L not only does everything AC used the A340 family and 744 better and then some,



Does it really? The 77W has way better CASM than the 343, however, on many routes AC has a problem to fill them. In these cases the lower trip cost of the 343 would be probably advantageous. As far as the 77L is concerned, AC currently doesn't have a route that really requires it. YVR-SYD is within the reach of 77W.
I can't help it, I have a feeling that 77L's are redundant in AC's fleet and AC should have gone a different way - using a 77W/333 combo. But who am I to talk about it...
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RE: Why No 747, A380 Or A340 For Air Canada?

Mon Nov 14, 2011 7:32 am

Air Canada had 747-200s as passenger aircraft as well, back in the 70s they were with the first operators of the 747. I flew often FRA-YYZ AC871 which was, over the years, anything from various DC8 models to L1011 to 747-200.
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Burkhard
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RE: Why No 747, A380 Or A340 For Air Canada?

Mon Nov 14, 2011 7:36 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 6):
AC has no requirement for anything larger than the 77W and even it is probably slightly too big for much of the year considering the extreme seasonality of many AC markets.

Long term it looks to me that either A358/A359 or all B789 are the way to go for AC, the 77L is very ineffient and the 77W too big.
 
connies4ever
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RE: Why No 747, A380 Or A340 For Air Canada?

Mon Nov 14, 2011 7:41 am

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 7):
Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 5):
I personally think AC could make 5-8 A380's work, but I dont think they would actually make any more money than they do with the current arrangement.

Which routes command the level of demand to make an A380 justifiable? Even as such, I'm sure it would reduce frequencies, which would not benefit AC.

On what routes indeed. As well, what about the inherent higher cost of adding another type to the fleet, particularly a type in small numbers.

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 10):
Thanks, I did not know that, what route or routes was AC buying & using them to operate, Just the Pacific?

Generally the -400s were used to NRT & HKG from YVR, and the 74Ms from YYZ/YUL to LHR, CDG, and FRA.
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kl692
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RE: Why No 747, A380 Or A340 For Air Canada?

Mon Nov 14, 2011 7:56 am

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 18):
Oh, it is true. I mean the AC 788 order. It happened during the "we don't care if we ruin the company, but we'll get rid of Airbus" management period (Milton, Brewer). I had a picture of a 77W and 788 in AC livery flying in formation set as my wallpaper for several years.

You right, I see that they order 37 of them and can't wait to see them in AC Lively. In terms of routes AC just needs to expand. It seems like they are comfortable being were they are and don't want to try different things. On the other hand I see WestJet as of the airlines to keep an eye on. And I am wondering if they will ever get into the cross Atlantic side.
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RE: Why No 747, A380 Or A340 For Air Canada?

Mon Nov 14, 2011 8:17 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 6):
AC has no requirement for anything larger than the 77W and even it is probably slightly too big for much of the year considering the extreme seasonality of many AC markets.

They are moved around contiously depending on where its peak season, around now they will be put on routes like YYZ-SCL-EZE and YYZ-GRU and taken off of routes like YYZ-CDG and a 763 or an A333 will be swapped in on routes like YYZ-LHR and YYZ-FRA.

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 18):

Does it really? The 77W has way better CASM than the 343, however, on many routes AC has a problem to fill them. In these cases the lower trip cost of the 343 would be probably advantageous. As far as the 77L is concerned, AC currently doesn't have a route that really requires it. YVR-SYD is within the reach of 77W.

AC has the 77L for cargo IIRC. For example on YYZ-HKG CX uses a 77W on it and it is weight restricted on how much cargo can be taken while AC has no such restrictions.

Also these routes require 2 for a daily service and AC only has 6 77L's
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connies4ever
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RE: Why No 747, A380 Or A340 For Air Canada?

Mon Nov 14, 2011 8:25 am

Quoting kl692 (Reply 22):
You right, I see that they order 37 of them and can't wait to see them in AC Lively. In terms of routes AC just needs to expand.

I'm sure a lot of AC staff feel the same way. The 788s allow for a 1-to-1 replacement of 763s plus a little growth. I believe there are options as well, which could become 789s.

For new routes, I'd expect something along the lines of:

YYZ/YVR - BOM/DEL
YYZ - GIG
YUL - BEY
YVR - CAN

As a reach, I'd also nominate as possibles:
YUL - HKG
YYC - HKG
YYZ - SVO
YVR - SIN
YYZ - JNB/CPT (but I doubt it)

Of course, with the proposed LCC spin off, AC might look considerably different in five years' time. Would the LCC take the old 763s, revamped with an all-Y/Y+ cabin, for example ?
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ORDJOE
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RE: Why No 747, A380 Or A340 For Air Canada?

Mon Nov 14, 2011 10:57 am

The total population of Canada is about 35 million I believe. That really is not all that much especially for a country that size.
 
katanapilot
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RE: Why No 747, A380 Or A340 For Air Canada?

Mon Nov 14, 2011 1:19 pm

'The total population of Canada is about 35 million I believe. That really is not all that much especially for a country that size.'

It's a lot of people when you consider it's thousands of kilometres from any country but the US and 90% of the population is spread in a narrow ribbon thousands of kilometres across. Aviation is big business in Canada, it's the only efficient way to get around the country and the world.
 
bavair
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RE: Why No 747, A380 Or A340 For Air Canada?

Mon Nov 14, 2011 1:53 pm

Quoting katanapilot (Reply 26):
It's a lot of people when you consider it's thousands of kilometres from any country but the US and 90% of the population is spread in a narrow ribbon thousands of kilometres across. Aviation is big business in Canada, it's the only efficient way to get around the country and the world.

The other thing is that you have to remember that a lot of people living in Canada aren't Canadian. Especially in Vancouver there are a lot of Asians etc. that definitely ought to drive the aviation business a bit.
 
jfk777
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RE: Why No 747, A380 Or A340 For Air Canada?

Mon Nov 14, 2011 3:05 pm

The 777 fleet replaced the 744 and A340 fleets. The A330 are still flown by AC, primarily on the Atlantic.
 
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RE: Why No 747, A380 Or A340 For Air Canada?

Mon Nov 14, 2011 3:37 pm

Quoting kl692 (Thread starter):
I was just going to through my spotting pictures and it hit me AC don't have any of the mention A/C, is there a reason why don't have any? I know they used to have 747 in the past!

I think if Air Canada had greater ambitions in building hubs at either Toronto or Montreal large planes could be justified but in my view Air Canada has not made the most of those airports potential. I think both could very well function as hubs for connections into the US from Europe. But this should have been created in a better way long time ago. Air Canada is a quality airline europeans think of only when going to Canada i presume and then they need basically what they have.
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cmf
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RE: Why No 747, A380 Or A340 For Air Canada?

Mon Nov 14, 2011 4:18 pm

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 5):
Back when the 747's were ordered, like many airlines they were required for their range and 4 engines, not necessarily capacity.

Often stated as truth but history does not support it.
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Stitch
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RE: Why No 747, A380 Or A340 For Air Canada?

Mon Nov 14, 2011 4:24 pm

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 5):
Back when the 747's were ordered, like many airlines they were required for their range and 4 engines, not necessarily capacity.
Quoting cmf (Reply 30):
Often stated as truth but history does not support it.

I would think airlines replacing 747-100s and 747-200s with DC-10s and L-1011s when those airframes became available should be enough historical proof that capacity alone did not drive 747 sales in the 1960s and 1970s.
 
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RE: Why No 747, A380 Or A340 For Air Canada?

Mon Nov 14, 2011 5:03 pm

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 20):
the 77L is very ineffient

Hello Burkhard, I am not trying to contradict you or anything, but I'd like to know how you concluded that the 77L is inefficient. Thanks.
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RE: Why No 747, A380 Or A340 For Air Canada?

Mon Nov 14, 2011 5:37 pm

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 24):

I'm sure a lot of AC staff feel the same way. The 788s allow for a 1-to-1 replacement of 763s plus a little growth. I believe there are options as well, which could become 789s.

For new routes, I'd expect something along the lines of:

YVR - BOM/DEL
GIG
YUL - BEY
YVR - CAN

As a reach, I'd also nominate as possibles:
YUL - HKG
YYC - HKG
SVO
YVR - SIN
JNB/CPT (but I doubt it)

Of course, with the proposed LCC spin off, AC might look considerably different in five years' time. Would the LCC take the old 763s, revamped with an all-Y/Y+ cabin, for example ?

From YUL the most widely rumored Asian destination is Beijing not Hong Kong. It's on the Airport's short term list of preferred destinations to serve, Hong Kong is a medium term wish according to them. Shanghai & Seoul a long term goal. From all accounts I've heard the volume of passengers to Beijing from Montreal far outstrips any other Asian destination. (See pg 12 of the PDF in the link below. in French but the city names listed are easily understood)

http://www.admtl.com/UploadedFiles/A...lleDePresse/Industrie_tourisme.pdf

[Edited 2011-11-14 09:38:44]
 
katanapilot
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RE: Why No 747, A380 Or A340 For Air Canada?

Mon Nov 14, 2011 6:17 pm

i also expect to see more service from YOW to europe with a 788....probably AMS and/or CDG. Right now they only serve LHR and FRA from YOW, but the region has grown to over 1.5 million in the last few years and taking a bus or driving to YUL is getting annoying.
 
cmf
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RE: Why No 747, A380 Or A340 For Air Canada?

Mon Nov 14, 2011 6:28 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 31):
I would think airlines replacing 747-100s and 747-200s with DC-10s and L-1011s when those airframes became available should be enough historical proof that capacity alone did not drive 747 sales in the 1960s and 1970s.

If they were only interested in the range and not the capacity they could have ordered 707-320B instead.

No doubt many airlines bought 747 for the wrong reasons, especially in the early days. But lumping it together to that much 747 sale happened only because airlines needed the range is a misleading statement and the purpose in most cases seems to be to create artificial support for the market for smaller long range models.
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ac033
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RE: Why No 747, A380 Or A340 For Air Canada?

Mon Nov 14, 2011 6:30 pm

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 20):

77L is insufficient?????? I bet the DC8 is!!!!!!!

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 24):

Maybe not YVR-CAN, since its already operated by CZ. But YYZ-CAN with the 788 sounds good. YYZ definitely can serve up to 3x weekly with CX picking up all the YYZ-HKG-CAN traffic, they obviously can go steal some.
 
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RE: Why No 747, A380 Or A340 For Air Canada?

Mon Nov 14, 2011 6:38 pm

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 24):
For new routes, I'd expect something along the lines of:

YYZ/YVR - BOM/DEL
YYZ - GIG
YUL - BEY
YVR - CAN

These all seem very likely. Although I'm unsure about BEY (simply because I know very little of this market), and GIG (they were once before and terminated the route).

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 24):
Would the LCC take the old 763s, revamped with an all-Y/Y cabin, for example ?

I highly doubt the proposed LCC would take the older 763s. I'm certain this LCC will begin as a domestic-only service, and the 763s are far too large for this. If you look at most LCCs around the world, they typically operate 737/A320s, so I can see AC allocating at least a handful of their A320s to this new carrier.

If they revamp any aircraft, it will be in all-Y configuration. A LCC with a Y+ option isn't really a LCC is it?

Finally, Rovinescu keeps suggesting he is hoping this LCC takes off in 2012. I think he's off his rocker. This new airline is subject to the AC unions allowing pilots and FAs to work at a lower pay-grade.....and we all know how much the union leaders just looove that idea  
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RE: Why No 747, A380 Or A340 For Air Canada?

Mon Nov 14, 2011 6:46 pm

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 18):
I have a feeling that 77L's are redundant in AC's fleet and AC should have gone a different way -

They explained at the time why they purchased them . It was because of the incremental cargo capacity. In fact they changed some 777F's when it became clear how much payload the 77L could do trans-pacific.. A 77L will haul max. volume limited payload of about 49t over a 7600nm ESAD sector . No slouch in my books!
 
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RE: Why No 747, A380 Or A340 For Air Canada?

Mon Nov 14, 2011 6:56 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 11):
The CP 744s were mainly used to Asia and in their latter years of service the AC combis were almost exclusively used to Europe.

I remember seeing them at FRA... Such a beautiful sight to see all those 744s from various airlines parked at FRA... Thai, LH, JL, NH, UA, QF, AI, AC etc...
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connies4ever
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RE: Why No 747, A380 Or A340 For Air Canada?

Mon Nov 14, 2011 7:00 pm

Quoting katanapilot (Reply 34):
i also expect to see more service from YOW to europe with a 788....probably AMS and/or CDG

AMS is a low yield destination, but CDG is a possibility.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 37):
If you look at most LCCs around the world, they typically operate 737/A320s, so I can see AC allocating at least a handful of their A320s to this new carrier.

Well, AirAsiaX seem to be operating nothing but widebodies. Scoot will do the same.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 37):
If they revamp any aircraft, it will be in all-Y configuration. A LCC with a Y+ option isn't really a LCC is it?

There are LCCs and then there are LCCs. WestJet for example seem to be oving away from the classic LCC model. I don't see any contradiction in having a Y+ as well as Y - it's all in the same cabin.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
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RE: Why No 747, A380 Or A340 For Air Canada?

Mon Nov 14, 2011 7:08 pm

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 37):
I highly doubt the proposed LCC would take the older 763s. I'm certain this LCC will begin as a domestic-only service, and the 763s are far too large for this. If you look at most LCCs around the world, they typically operate 737/A320s, so I can see AC allocating at least a handful of their A320s to this new carrier.

The proposed LCC will not fly domestically.

It is proposed to fly vacation and low yield international destinations. The initial fleet plan is for A319s and B767-300s, all in an all Y-Class tight cabin configuration a la Transat. Currently in the fleet there are 132Y A319s and 264Y B767s flying to vacation destinations. These aircraft would go to the LCC.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 37):
This new airline is subject to the AC unions allowing pilots and FAs to work at a lower pay-grade

The LCC would not be flown by current AC F/As, as their new agreement does not include it. In fact, it is rumoured that the LCC would not be operated by any current AC employees, other than the pilots. And ... while there was a slight reduction is wages for this carrier, the main gains were in places other than wages.
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RE: Why No 747, A380 Or A340 For Air Canada?

Mon Nov 14, 2011 7:19 pm

Quoting cmf (Reply 30):
Often stated as truth but history does not support it.

On the contrary, history supports this proposition very strongly. As soon as smaller aircraft with the range of the 747 (A340, MD-11, 777) became available, 747 passenger sales, previously quite strong, fell through the floor.

AC happens to be a great example. They operated early 747s for intercontinental range, in the days when the market was more forgiving of low load factors. Yet a 747-8 or A380 would be a nightmare for them because they just don't need that much capacity.
 
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RE: Why No 747, A380 Or A340 For Air Canada?

Mon Nov 14, 2011 7:53 pm

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 42):
As soon as smaller aircraft with the range of the 747 (A340, MD-11, 777) became available, 747 passenger sales, previously quite strong, fell through the floor.

DC-10 was available long before those models and 747-400 sold about half of all 747. The 747-400 alone outsold contemporary A340 and MD-11 put together.

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 42):
They operated early 747s for intercontinental range

They had options already when they placed the first order. More options when they placed following orders.

I do not find historical support for your statementS.
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connies4ever
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RE: Why No 747, A380 Or A340 For Air Canada?

Mon Nov 14, 2011 8:35 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 41):
Currently in the fleet there are 132Y A319s and 264Y B767s

The all Y A319s are the ones leased to Mexicana ? And the all-Y 763s are from HA, correct ? Would the LCC offer a Y+ in the front part of the cabin, perhaps 32" leg room, 1 comp drink ,something like that ? Probably only 4-5 seat rows.

But the LCC to places like AMS, DUB, ATH, BCN, perhaps a couple of newer destinations like LYS & NCE (previously served), LIS, WAW, + the Caribbean makes some sense to me. Tehre will likely always be premium traffic to some sun destinations, like BGI (but then look at the accomodation rates there!), but the majority of the traffic will be seeking the lowest fares.

If AirAsiaX can make it work, and Scoot to come, and whatever Jetstar morphs into, that seems to be the way it is going.
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WestJet747
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RE: Why No 747, A380 Or A340 For Air Canada?

Mon Nov 14, 2011 9:05 pm

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 40):
Well, AirAsiaX seem to be operating nothing but widebodies. Scoot will do the same.

AirAsia X was born from AirAsia, who has always and continues to operate A320s. I've read very little into Scoot; what types will they be flying?

Quoting longhauler (Reply 41):
The proposed LCC will not fly domestically.

It is proposed to fly vacation and low yield international destinations. The initial fleet plan is for A319s and B767-300s, all in an all Y-Class tight cabin configuration a la Transat. Currently in the fleet there are 132Y A319s and 264Y B767s flying to vacation destinations. These aircraft would go to the LCC.

Thanks for the insight longhauler. I expected the configuration, but I definitely didn't expect it to be purely international.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 41):
The LCC would not be flown by current AC F/As, as their new agreement does not include it. In fact, it is rumoured that the LCC would not be operated by any current AC employees, other than the pilots. And ... while there was a slight reduction is wages for this carrier, the main gains were in places other than wages.

Then why has the union fought tooth-and-nail with Rovinescu on this? I've read numerous reports in which they quote him saying that the new LCC can't take off without union approval.

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 40):
I don't see any contradiction in having a Y+ as well as Y - it's all in the same cabin.

Well if longhauler's above comments are indeed correct, then yes I can see this being true on the long haul routes.
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RE: Why No 747, A380 Or A340 For Air Canada?

Mon Nov 14, 2011 11:19 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 41):
It is proposed to fly vacation and low yield international destinations.

So the rumor that AC apply for traffic right to ACC could be true and the route will be serve once they get this LCC going?
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aircanada014
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RE: Why No 747, A380 Or A340 For Air Canada?

Mon Nov 14, 2011 11:44 pm

Don't forget AC believe pax prefer frequency over onestop daily B747-8 or A380 to LHR or to FRA.
We know AC offers at least 4 dailies to LHR from YYZ and 2 dailies to FRA from YYZ. Both can do 747 or A380 if it's only 1 daily service and no longer frequencies.. Also require more fuel on 4 engines vs 2 engines so there's a big savings on fuel bill.
 
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seabosdca
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RE: Why No 747, A380 Or A340 For Air Canada?

Tue Nov 15, 2011 12:10 am

Quoting cmf (Reply 43):
DC-10 was available long before those models and 747-400 sold about half of all 747. The 747-400 alone outsold contemporary A340 and MD-11 put together.

The DC-10, even the DC-10-30, never had the range of any 747 (-200B or better).

Most of those 747-400 passenger sales came about before the A340 was widely available. The MD-11 likely would have taken a few more of them than it did, had it performed to spec.

By the time the 777-200ER was available, 747-400 orders had slowed to a trickle, even though the big bird still had a CASM advantage.

This is not as OT as it seems... it's all by way of arguing that fewer airlines need VLA capacity than a lot of people think, and that AC is not (and has never been) one of them.

[Edited 2011-11-14 16:12:12]
 
YVRLTN
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RE: Why No 747, A380 Or A340 For Air Canada?

Tue Nov 15, 2011 1:51 am

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 18):
Does it really? The 77W has way better CASM than the 343, however, on many routes AC has a problem to fill them. In these cases the lower trip cost of the 343 would be probably advantageous. As far as the 77L is concerned, AC currently doesn't have a route that really requires it. YVR-SYD is within the reach of 77W.
I can't help it, I have a feeling that 77L's are redundant in AC's fleet and AC should have gone a different way - using a 77W/333 combo. But who am I to talk about it...

I dont have all the figures available to me the bean coutners do. I know there was a school of opinion at the time that the A340's should be kept as lease payments would be cheaper and wait until the next generation and increase the A330 fleet meanwhile. Im not sure the downturn was predicted to be as severe as it was when the T7's were ordered, but I have heard that LF's these days are pretty good. I am willing to be corrected if wrong. With the amount of fleet rotation that goes on at AC, I would like to think that overall in the grand scheme of things the T7's are better performers. As I said, dont forget about the the cargo uplift.

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 21):
Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 7):
Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 5):
I personally think AC could make 5-8 A380's work, but I dont think they would actually make any more money than they do with the current arrangement.

Which routes command the level of demand to make an A380 justifiable? Even as such, I'm sure it would reduce frequencies, which would not benefit AC.


On what routes indeed. As well, what about the inherent higher cost of adding another type to the fleet, particularly a type in small numbers.

Making it work is not the same as it is a good idea. I agree the A380 is too much metal for AC. That being said, they have a small sub fleet of A333's, YYZ itself is a huge market and the potential for more transit pax, while talked about a lot, could Im sure be worked on. Who knows if it will still be the case in 5 years, but there is no question pax would consider transiting YYZ with AC if they could fly on an A380 rather than a US 757 or AA 767 (just as random examples).

Some potential routes

YYZ - LHR
YVR - HKG
YUL - CDG
YYZ - FRA
With a few YYZ - YVR flights like currently operated with the 77W/L.

As I said, they could make it work, but the current arrangement is better.
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