jayeshrulz
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American Eagle Fined $900,000 For Tarmac Delays

Mon Nov 14, 2011 1:42 pm


Washington: The Department of Transportation said Monday it has fined a regional affiliate of American Airlines $900,000 for keeping hundreds of passengers cooped up for hours on planes in Chicago earlier this year, a clear warning to airlines on the eve of the holiday travel season that similar incidents won't be tolerated.

American Eagle Airlines had tarmac delays of more than three hours on 15 flights arriving at O'Hare International Airport on May 29, the department said in a statement. A total of 608 passengers were aboard the delayed flights.

The airline must pay $650,000 of the fine within 30 days, the department said. But up to $250,000 can be credited for refunds, vouchers, and frequent flyer mile awards provided to the passengers on the 15 flights, as well as to passengers on future flights that violate the three-hour rule, the department said.

The department implemented a new rule in April 2010 limiting tarmac delays on domestic flights to three hours. After that, airlines must either return to a gate or provide passengers who wish to leave planes with some other means of safely getting off. Airlines that violate the rule can be fined as much as $27,500 per passenger.


http://www.ndtv.com/article/world/am...0-for-lengthy-tarmac-delays-149766

Another slap on AA's face?
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ckfred
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American Eagle Fined $900,000 For Tarmac Delays

Mon Nov 14, 2011 1:52 pm

Love to see what happens to B6 flight for the flight stuck at BDL for 7 hours last month.
 
norcal
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American Eagle Fined $900,000 For Tarmac Delays

Mon Nov 14, 2011 2:14 pm

Quoting jayeshrulz (Thread starter):
Another slap on AA's face?

Slap on the wrist perhaps, if the DOT had followed this to the letter it would have been over a $10 million fine, probably a lot more.

This occurred because Eagle was trying a more efficient ramp staffing model (read less rampers) and they got backed up and unable to move airplanes. This isn't unique to AMR it happens at a lot of airlines (not this particular scenario but inefficiencies in the operation like this). When employees see stuff like this on a daily basis they are reluctant to give out concessions. There are millions in potential fuel savings alone if we never had to wait on rampers when we came to airports. When you multiply the fuel wasted by sitting short of a gate for a few minutes (even with only one engine running) across hundreds of flights a day it adds up.
 
AWACSooner
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American Eagle Fined $900,000 For Tarmac Delays

Mon Nov 14, 2011 2:51 pm

What money will they be paying this fine with, exactly?
 
mhkansan
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RE: American Eagle Fined $900,000 For Tarmac Delays

Mon Nov 14, 2011 4:49 pm

Eagle has plenty of unrestricted cash and from my understanding they budget a reserve amount for fines each year - I hope every airline does it, it would be nearly impossible to do everything correctly all the time in this industry.
 
ckfred
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RE: American Eagle Fined $900,000 For Tarmac Delays

Mon Nov 14, 2011 4:57 pm

Was the weather bad that day? I know that Chicago had a lot of storms in June and July, but I can't remember what the weather was like that day.
 
nomadd22
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RE: American Eagle Fined $900,000 For Tarmac Delays

Mon Nov 14, 2011 4:58 pm

If the fines went to the passengers I bet they'd be in a lot better mood during those prolonged delays.
Anon
 
rfields5421
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RE: American Eagle Fined $900,000 For Tarmac Delays

Mon Nov 14, 2011 5:08 pm

Quoting ckfred (Reply 1):
Love to see what happens to B6 flight for the flight stuck at BDL for 7 hours last month.

This fine must be creating a lot of concern in the B6 headquarters.
 
N62NA
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RE: American Eagle Fined $900,000 For Tarmac Delays

Mon Nov 14, 2011 5:57 pm

While in general I don't like to see airlines fined, in the case of these 3+ hour hostage situations I think it is quite appropriate. Looking forward to the upcoming B6 BDL fine.
 
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readytotaxi
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RE: American Eagle Fined $900,000 For Tarmac Delays

Mon Nov 14, 2011 6:26 pm

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 7):
in the case of these 3+ hour hostage situations I think it is quite appropriate.

if a passenger(s) were to open the door and slide down the shute after x hours, what is the penalty they face in the US?
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Acey559
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RE: American Eagle Fined $900,000 For Tarmac Delays

Mon Nov 14, 2011 6:39 pm

Quoting AWACSooner (Reply 3):

What money will they be paying this fine with, exactly?

While AA hasn't exactly been doing well as of late, I have been told by a number of people that MQ is indeed profitable and has a good amount of money in the bank (relative to our size).
 
mhkansan
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RE: American Eagle Fined $900,000 For Tarmac Delays

Mon Nov 14, 2011 7:21 pm

AA has $5.1 Bn in unrestricted cash, and MQ is still wholly owned. MQ has a positive, profitable margin, yes. As I stated earlier, this fine was probably already accounted for.
 
norcal
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RE: American Eagle Fined $900,000 For Tarmac Delays

Mon Nov 14, 2011 8:39 pm

Quoting ckfred (Reply 5):

Nope. New "more efficient" ramp staffing model known as dynamic manning. Basically management somehow decided less rampers could somehow cover the ramp with zero delays. Big mistake.
 
adh214
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RE: American Eagle Fined $900,000 For Tarmac Delays

Mon Nov 14, 2011 9:33 pm

Quoting jayeshrulz (Thread starter):
A total of 608 passengers were aboard the delayed flights.

Wait a second 608 passengers held for at least 3 hours in an RJ and they ONLY get a $900,000 fine. My calculation shows $27,500 * 608 is $16,720,000. Why is the FAA not charging the full fine? Did some congressman make a phone call to the FAA?

I am sick of airlines holding passengers hostage. If you can't operate the flight (including disembarking at the destination) don't operate the flight.
 
mikect
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RE: American Eagle Fined $900,000 For Tarmac Delays

Mon Nov 14, 2011 9:50 pm

Quoting N62NA (Reply 8):
While in general I don't like to see airlines fined, in the case of these 3+ hour hostage situations I think it is quite appropriate. Looking forward to the upcoming B6 BDL fine.


Didn't it come out that B6 wasn't entirely responsible? One particular pilot was heard on the radio practically begging for a gate, stairs, anything.

That being said I don't know if it was ground handling that B6 was responsible for causing this problem, or the airport authority. If the airport was at fault here, I don't think the airline should be held responsible.
 
N62NA
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RE: American Eagle Fined $900,000 For Tarmac Delays

Mon Nov 14, 2011 10:11 pm

Quoting MikeCT (Reply 14):

Didn't it come out that B6 wasn't entirely responsible? One particular pilot was heard on the radio practically begging for a gate, stairs, anything.

Yeah, I listened to the tape. The captain also said something to the effect of "our company has abandoned us, anything you could do would be appreciated."
 
yeelep
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RE: American Eagle Fined $900,000 For Tarmac Delays

Mon Nov 14, 2011 10:19 pm

Quoting adh214 (Reply 13):
Why is the FAA not charging the full fine? Did some congressman make a phone call to the FAA?

Its not the FAA, its the DOT.
 
N62NA
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RE: American Eagle Fined $900,000 For Tarmac Delays

Mon Nov 14, 2011 10:37 pm

Quoting nomadd22 (Reply 6):
If the fines went to the passengers I bet they'd be in a lot better mood during those prolonged delays.

I missed that first time around. I agree! Too bad the law wasn't written so that the actual hostages got the money.
 
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aerorobnz
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RE: American Eagle Fined $900,000 For Tarmac Delays

Mon Nov 14, 2011 11:46 pm

Quoting adh214 (Reply 13):
I am sick of airlines holding passengers hostage. If you can't operate the flight (including disembarking at the destination) don't operate the flight.

Airlines are damned if they do and damned if they don't.

If Airlines operate the flight, which then gets held on the ramp they are fined, if they don't operate the flight or return to gate to allow passengers off then the passengers will still complain and they still have to compensate the passengers anyway

Add any civil suits for not getting the passengers where they need for the holidays/business appointments etc. In other words the flight becomes completely unsustainable and unprofitable to operate because the costs are worth much more than the revenue of operating the route at certain tumultuous times of the year.

What the rules should require from the airlines is that they issue a warning at check in/before boarding that there may be weather related gate delays of xxx hours and anyone wishing to offload themselves for rebooking on another flight now can do so free of charge and that by boarding you waive the right to compensation if the flight is within the delay time specified by the airline and DOT.

Besides, Airports are the ones who control the infrastructure ultimately and it is their airport planning that has failed. If you travel to a properly designed airport in most parts of the world, they have far more gates than they do flights, plenty of airstairs, buses and enough space to store extra aircraft safely without stuffing up the operation too much. This is where things can be fixed, not this punitive damages nonsense. If airports cannot increase these requirements then they should have to reduce movements at the airport until they get to a figure that allows them to provide the required percentage of surplus facilities without expanding.

Obviously the increased cost to Airports should be passed on to airlines and passengers ultimately, as it is for them that they would be providing the service. User pays, and air travel is still unsustainably cheap.

Either Passengers should suck it up and accept it as a compromise in order to get lower fares, or pay the extra cost on fares to get the facilities they demand. In much of the third world, long hours aboard crowded transport is commonplace and perfectly acceptable - Passengers who know the way things are, know they won't be fed etc should always be looking after themselves by bringing their own rations anyway, and they are just as negligent as the airlines for not preparing adequately IMO.
Flown to 120 Airports in 44 Countries on 73 Operators. Visited 55 Countries and counting. Wanderlust is like Syphilis, once you have the itch it's too late for treatment.
 
Jpax
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RE: American Eagle Fined $900,000 For Tarmac Delays

Mon Nov 14, 2011 11:58 pm

Quoting MikeCT (Reply 14):
I am sick of airlines holding passengers hostage. If you can't operate the flight (including disembarking at the destination) don't operate the flight.


We can't foresee how big of a sh*tshow a day can turn into. We board our planes and push off the gate in hopes to get out of limbo. As an EWR based pilot, I'm a frequent visitor of the ballpark/penalty box/dog house/etc. If there are no gates, there are no gates. If there is no equipment to assist you, there is no equipment to assist you. Despite everyone's best efforts, sometimes the fury of mother nature overwhelms an airport and everybody loses. The most you can do is try make the best of a bad situation. Keep yourself hydrated, have a snack if possible, put on your iPod, and we'll keep you updated from up front, even if that means there is no news.

[Edited 2011-11-14 16:09:49]
 
spyglass
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RE: American Eagle Fined $900,000 For Tarmac Delays

Tue Nov 15, 2011 12:28 am

The obvious answer is to add several dozen gates at the big hubs to be used solely for weather delays, spend a few millions on extra tugs, bag carts, busses and emergency situation personnel to handle this. If you could stop time and keep the ensuing flights & pax from continuing to show at the airport, and the planes didn't hafta be somewhere else to operate more flts, it'd be easy. But it's like waves to the shore....the flow never stops, even if the flts do.

The anathema in all this is, as mentioned, that the "government" gets the fines, and no entity on earth is more fiscally foolish than the US govt and its branches. Better if it went to the pax....
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: American Eagle Fined $900,000 For Tarmac Delays

Tue Nov 15, 2011 12:36 am

People are such babies sometimes. If sitting 3 hours in a plane is "being held hostage" your life if probably wayyyyy to pampered...
Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
 
Jpax
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RE: American Eagle Fined $900,000 For Tarmac Delays

Tue Nov 15, 2011 12:37 am

Quoting spyglass (Reply 20):
The obvious answer is to add several dozen gates at the big hubs

Obvious answer until you find out there is no room for a few extra gates, nonetheless several dozen.
 
flymia
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RE: American Eagle Fined $900,000 For Tarmac Delays

Tue Nov 15, 2011 12:44 am

Quoting adh214 (Reply 13):
Wait a second 608 passengers held for at least 3 hours in an RJ and they ONLY get a $900,000 fine. My calculation shows $27,500 * 608 is $16,720,000. Why is the FAA not charging the full fine? Did some congressman make a phone call to the FAA?

You can't be serious? These fines are dumb and insane enough. 16,720,000 for that would never hold up in court anyway.

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 18):
What the rules should require from the airlines is that they issue a warning at check in/before boarding that there may be weather related gate delays of xxx hours and anyone wishing to offload themselves for rebooking on another flight now can do so free of charge and that by boarding you waive the right to compensation if the flight is within the delay time specified by the airline and DOT.

Great idea. I think it is insane that the airlines are getting fined with trying to provide a service. I also think it is insane since the government (county,state,federal) are the ones who control the airports to begin with. Maybe if the FAA would update their ATC system already the delays would not be so long. Airlines will just have to start canceling more flights that might get to their destinations if these outrageous fines continue. And of course than the airline loses again, angry passengers. It is a lose lose for airlines.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
T5towbar
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RE: American Eagle Fined $900,000 For Tarmac Delays

Tue Nov 15, 2011 12:55 am

Quoting spyglass (Reply 20):
The obvious answer is to add several dozen gates at the big hubs to be used solely for weather delays, spend a few millions on extra tugs, bag carts, busses and emergency situation personnel to handle this. If you could stop time and keep the ensuing flights & pax from continuing to show at the airport, and the planes didn't hafta be somewhere else to operate more flts, it'd be easy. But it's like waves to the shore....the flow never stops, even if the flts do.

That won't work. You can't designate gates because there isn't enough of them in the first place. No one wants to be held hostage, but on weather days, things happen. Damned if you do, and damned if you don't. Airstairs are the same. You have to worry about lawsuits if someone slips down an icy step. Also people watch the news and the airline is saying that the flight is still going out on time. It's a crapshoot when you get there and find that the flight is delayed and may or may not fly out. So what does a pax do?

Quoting Jpax (Reply 19):
As an EWR based pilot, I'm a frequent visitor of the ballpark/penalty box/dog house/etc. If there are no gates, there are no gates.

The Ball Park really gets filled up fast on weather days. Most of the deicing is done there, I think. They don't want to block the alleyways. And its a crazy situation on the ramp on weather days too.

Quoting norcal (Reply 12):
Nope. New "more efficient" ramp staffing model known as dynamic manning. Basically management somehow decided less rampers could somehow cover the ramp with zero delays. Big mistake.

Sounds like the old "staff management" we used to have. Some suit upstairs thinks up this stuff and it never works. Granted we do a lot with less, but when the delays start racking up because we are short, then the idiots upstairs figures it out.
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fat-g4
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RE: American Eagle Fined $900,000 For Tarmac Delays

Tue Nov 15, 2011 12:56 am

I would pull the slide after sitting on the Tarmac for 3 hours. Let alone 7. Do everyone a favor!
 
c680
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RE: American Eagle Fined $900,000 For Tarmac Delays

Tue Nov 15, 2011 12:57 am

Quoting spyglass (Reply 20):
The obvious answer is to add several dozen gates at the big hubs to be used solely for weather delays

Or a handful of stairs and busses, a snowplow, and couple of big guys to carry handicaped down the stairs....
My happy place is FL470 - what's yours?
 
N62NA
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RE: American Eagle Fined $900,000 For Tarmac Delays

Tue Nov 15, 2011 12:58 am

Quoting Jpax (Reply 19):
As an EWR based pilot, I'm a frequent visitor of the ballpark/penalty box/dog house/etc.

Just curious... about what % of the time do you visit the penalty box (both at EWR and at the originating airport when flying into EWR).
 
thrufru
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RE: American Eagle Fined $900,000 For Tarmac Delays

Tue Nov 15, 2011 1:09 am

Quoting adh214 (Reply 13):
I am sick of airlines holding passengers hostage. If you can't operate the flight (including disembarking at the destination) don't operate the flight.

Funny you should say that. A direct result of these new rules as reported by NBC news this evening (among other sources) is a significant increase in cancelled flights exactly so airlines don't run the risk of extended delays leading to these fines. As one of the previous posters stated.... "Damned if you do, damned if you don't."

And... I'd also like to know why B6 wasn't the first carrier to be fined, seeing as this whole new process was instituted in response to a situation with them several years ago.
 
norcal
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RE: American Eagle Fined $900,000 For Tarmac Delays

Tue Nov 15, 2011 1:49 am

Quoting fat-g4 (Reply 25):

Those slides probably cost close to half a million each to reinstall not mention lost time and revenue in mx. Plus a passenger could break a leg or injure themselves more seriously on a slide. That is a serious law suit waiting to happen. Terrible idea to pop the slides.
 
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aerorobnz
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RE: American Eagle Fined $900,000 For Tarmac Delays

Tue Nov 15, 2011 2:34 am

Quoting norcal (Reply 29):
That is a serious law suit waiting to happen

Not to mention in breach of FAA law, so there would be a major fine/prison time and some serious time on the passenger blacklist if the airline pushed for all the charges to stick. Air Rage, endangerment of life, Non compliance with Cabin Crew - you name it they would make it stick. DOT regulations are secondary in importance to FAA laws, so you would never win trying to argue you were trying to help out passengers. It's like Shooting someone in the head because you think they MIGHT be shoplifting.
Flown to 120 Airports in 44 Countries on 73 Operators. Visited 55 Countries and counting. Wanderlust is like Syphilis, once you have the itch it's too late for treatment.
 
Okie
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RE: American Eagle Fined $900,000 For Tarmac Delays

Tue Nov 15, 2011 2:47 am

Quoting thrufru (Reply 28):
Funny you should say that. A direct result of these new rules as reported by NBC news this evening (among other sources) is a significant increase in cancelled flights exactly so airlines don't run the risk of extended delays leading to these fines. As one of the previous posters stated.... "Damned if you do, damned if you don't."


Well I can just tell you that for someone that spends considerable time in the air that generally speaking the airlines are doing a pretty good job. It is ironic though when after you have spent a few hours flying a few thousand miles half way across the country that you are spending a few hours on the taxiway waiting to get a few thousand feet to your gate. The longest time I have spent was around two hours so I can understand the frustration with waiting 7 hours.

The main issue I have with the cancelled flights is that most flights are booked near full these days and it is hard to get another flight with an empty seat in a reasonable time frame without some creative routing.

So we are back to Damned if you do, Damned if you don't.

Quoting spyglass (Reply 20):
The obvious answer is to add several dozen gates at the big hubs to be used solely for weather delays, spend a few millions on extra tugs, bag carts, busses and emergency situation personnel to handle this. If you could stop time and keep the ensuing flights & pax from continuing to show at the airport, and the planes didn't hafta be somewhere else to operate more flts, it'd be easy


I was looking for a smiley or something after that, I guess not.
That sure does not sound like any business model I have ever heard of, does that equate to about maybe and additional $250 per passenger.

Okie
 
T5towbar
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RE: American Eagle Fined $900,000 For Tarmac Delays

Tue Nov 15, 2011 2:52 am

Quoting thrufru (Reply 28):
Funny you should say that. A direct result of these new rules as reported by NBC news this evening (among other sources) is a significant increase in cancelled flights exactly so airlines don't run the risk of extended delays leading to these fines. As one of the previous posters stated.... "Damned if you do, damned if you don't."

Exactly.
You will see tons of cancellations. The past couple of snowstorms earlier this year (and Xmas of last year) showed that. Better to pre-cancel the flight, than try to send it out.
A comment from an Ex CON: Work Hard.....Fly Standby!
 
rfields5421
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RE: American Eagle Fined $900,000 For Tarmac Delays

Tue Nov 15, 2011 3:03 am

Quoting adh214 (Reply 13):
My calculation shows $27,500 * 608 is $16,720,000.

The fine amount is UP TO $27,500 per passenger. It is not a set in stone amount. The authorities are able to make the fine amount based on several factors just like judges do in criminal cases.

Quoting MikeCT (Reply 14):
Didn't it come out that B6 wasn't entirely responsible?

Does not matter. The law and regulations make the airline solely responsible. Period.
 
Mir
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RE: American Eagle Fined $900,000 For Tarmac Delays

Tue Nov 15, 2011 3:29 am

Quoting adh214 (Reply 13):
If you can't operate the flight (including disembarking at the destination) don't operate the flight.

You seem to be under the assumption that airlines send flights out knowing that they're not going to have to sit on the ground for hours on end. But that's not the case.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 21):
People are such babies sometimes. If sitting 3 hours in a plane is "being held hostage" your life if probably wayyyyy to pampered...

   First world problems....

Quoting Jpax (Reply 22):
Quoting spyglass (Reply 20):
The obvious answer is to add several dozen gates at the big hubs

Obvious answer until you find out there is no room for a few extra gates, nonetheless several dozen.

Never mind the money it would take to build and maintain those gates.

Quoting thrufru (Reply 28):
A direct result of these new rules as reported by NBC news this evening (among other sources) is a significant increase in cancelled flights exactly so airlines don't run the risk of extended delays leading to these fines.

A similar article here: http://www.ajc.com/news/nation-world...airline-fine-may-send-1225431.html

Yes, the number of flights stuck on the ground for a while is way down. That does not mean that the rule is working. Given the choice between sitting on the plane for four hours and having my flight cancelled (and thus having to deal with getting another seat on ever-fuller flights), I'll take the four hour sit any day (especially if the airline has stocked the plane appropriately, so that they don't run out of water and limited snacks).

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
N62NA
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RE: American Eagle Fined $900,000 For Tarmac Delays

Tue Nov 15, 2011 3:39 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 34):
Given the choice between sitting on the plane for four hours and having my flight cancelled (and thus having to deal with getting another seat on ever-fuller flights), I'll take the four hour sit any day (especially if the airline has stocked the plane appropriately, so that they don't run out of water and limited snacks).

Not me. There's got to be a better system than finding out within minutes of departure - after everyone is sitting on the plane - that there's going to be a delay of 2 or 3 hours.

I believe the current system is that the flight gets it's "release" or "slot" or whatever it's called from ATC about 30 minutes before scheduled departure, which unfortunately is just the time when most boarding starts. So if there's the usual 3 hour and 22 minute delay going into EWR and the new "wheels up" time is 2 hours and 50 minutes from now, then don't board the flight!.
 
fat-g4
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RE: American Eagle Fined $900,000 For Tarmac Delays

Tue Nov 15, 2011 3:50 am

I remember a flight in June, from MCO to DFW there was a delay after we already started taxing because of military activity over the gulf. Had it real restricted. It was a 2 hour delay. Miami Center had to know that before we started boarding.
 
Mir
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RE: American Eagle Fined $900,000 For Tarmac Delays

Tue Nov 15, 2011 4:42 am

Quoting N62NA (Reply 35):
There's got to be a better system than finding out within minutes of departure - after everyone is sitting on the plane - that there's going to be a delay of 2 or 3 hours.

First of all, the delays mentioned in the article are arrival delays, which are a different story. Second of all, I doubt the airline would have boarded and pushed just to wait 2 or 3 hours. When you push off the gate, you're burning fuel to run the engines or APU, you're paying the crew - all extra cost that the airlines would rather not incur. There are two reasons to board and depart - either you need the gate for another aircraft (easier to work around, unless you're really packed for space the rest of the day), or you figure that you might be able to get the delay reduced if you're ready to go. Delay reductions do happen, and if there's a decent chance of it, I don't have a problem with waiting it out on the plane. Being stuck in the gate area is not a whole lot better.

Quoting fat-g4 (Reply 36):
I remember a flight in June, from MCO to DFW there was a delay after we already started taxing because of military activity over the gulf. Had it real restricted. It was a 2 hour delay. Miami Center had to know that before we started boarding.

Perhaps they expected it to be over, but whatever activity was going on there got extended. I'm not sure why people assume that there's no communication going on behind the scenes.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
N62NA
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RE: American Eagle Fined $900,000 For Tarmac Delays

Tue Nov 15, 2011 6:48 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 37):
Second of all, I doubt the airline would have boarded and pushed just to wait 2 or 3 hours. When you push off the gate, you're burning fuel to run the engines or APU, you're paying the crew - all extra cost that the airlines would rather not incur.

This happens all the time with AA at MIA on flights to LGA and EWR. I've lived it.

Quoting Mir (Reply 37):
you figure that you might be able to get the delay reduced if you're ready to go.

I guess that's the thinking but you still sit out there midfield at MIA waiting, and waiting, and waiting...
 
Mir
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RE: American Eagle Fined $900,000 For Tarmac Delays

Tue Nov 15, 2011 7:08 am

Quoting N62NA (Reply 38):
This happens all the time with AA at MIA on flights to LGA and EWR. I've lived it.

I'm not saying it doesn't happen - I live in NYC, I know it can be difficult sometimes to get in. I'm saying that AA (or any other airline) doesn't leave planes sitting on the ground just for the hell of it. There are legitimate operational reasons to do it.

Quoting N62NA (Reply 38):
I guess that's the thinking but you still sit out there midfield at MIA waiting, and waiting, and waiting...

That's why it's might be able to get the delay reduced and not will.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
N770WD
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RE: American Eagle Fined $900,000 For Tarmac Delays

Tue Nov 15, 2011 10:52 am

Quoting norcal (Reply 2):
Slap on the wrist perhaps, if the DOT had followed this to the letter it would have been over a $10 million fine, probably a lot more.
Quoting adh214 (Reply 13):
Wait a second 608 passengers held for at least 3 hours in an RJ and they ONLY get a $900,000 fine. My calculation shows $27,500 * 608 is $16,720,000. Why is the FAA not charging the full fine? Did some congressman make a phone call to the FAA?
Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 33):
The fine amount is UP TO $27,500 per passenger. It is not a set in stone amount.

DOT says they can fine up to $27,500 per passenger. But it's very debatable whether they can.

As DOT said on Monday in the consent order with American Eagle:

"Because the purpose of [the tarmac rule] is to protect individual passengers from being forced to remain on aircraft for more than 3 hours in the case of domestic flights without the opportunity to deplane, [DOT] takes the position that a separate violation occurs for each passenger who is forced to remain on board an aircraft for longer than the set amount of time without the opportunity to deplane. Pursuant to 49 U.S.C. § 46301, violations of [the tarmac rule] subject a carrier to civil penalties of up to $27,500 per violation."

DOT says enforcement here is pursuant to 49 USC 46301, which it is.
However this is how 49 USC 46301(a)(2) actually defines a violation:

"A separate violation occurs under this subsection for each day the violation (other than a violation of section 41719) continues or, if applicable, for each flight involving the violation (other than a violation of section 41719)."

(Section 41719 involves termination of air service and is not relevant here)

Congress gave DOT the authority to prosecute violations "for each day" or "if applicable, for each flight" and NOT "per passenger". That means DOT does not have the statutory authority to enforce the rule on a per passenger basis, no matter how they interpret the intent of the rule. Notably, the rule itself defines tarmac delays on a per aircraft basis and never on a per passenger basis.
 
NorthstarBoy
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RE: American Eagle Fined $900,000 For Tarmac Delays

Tue Nov 15, 2011 11:45 am

Just curious, do E145s come with built in air stairs? If so, why not use them to get the pax off and have the flight attendants/pilots/rampers walk them to the nearest gate?
Yes, I'd like to see airbus go under so Boeing can have their customers!
 
rfields5421
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RE: American Eagle Fined $900,000 For Tarmac Delays

Tue Nov 15, 2011 2:03 pm

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Reply 41):
Just curious, do E145s come with built in air stairs?

Some do and some don't.

American / American Eagle have been moving toward no air stairs because they like to board the CRJ and ERJ aircraft at jetways rather than having pax on the ramp.

I don't know exactly how much of the fleet is which way, but my most recent experiences lead me to believe almost all the American Eagle fleet is configured for jetways.
 
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jfklganyc
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RE: American Eagle Fined $900,000 For Tarmac Delays

Tue Nov 15, 2011 2:09 pm

Eagle RJs have no stairs built in
 
N62NA
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RE: American Eagle Fined $900,000 For Tarmac Delays

Tue Nov 15, 2011 8:25 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 39):
There are legitimate operational reasons to do it.

And those operational reasons may be not the most ideal in the eyes of the hostage, er, passenger.

Quoting Mir (Reply 39):
That's why it's might be able to get the delay reduced and not will.

Yeah, I know. It's "delay roulette."
 
rcair1
Crew
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RE: American Eagle Fined $900,000 For Tarmac Delays

Tue Nov 15, 2011 8:42 pm

Quoting AWACSooner (Reply 3):
What money will they be paying this fine with, exactly?

Your money - either from ticket sales or gov'mt bailouts.

Quoting nomadd22 (Reply 6):

If the fines went to the passengers I bet they'd be in a lot better mood during those prolonged delays.

Oh no - this is Obama (or fill in the current head of state) money.
Of course - the 'credit' for helping passengers is kind of your money.

Quoting adh214 (Reply 13):
Wait a second 608 passengers held for at least 3 hours in an RJ and they ONLY get a $900,000 fine. My calculation shows $27,500 * 608 is $16,720,000. Why is the FAA not charging the full fine? Did some congressman make a phone call to the FAA?

It would be criminal to charge this. Do you think each and every person sitting on that plane deserves $9166 an hour? Or rather the government deserves to confiscate $9166 per hour for _your_ time?

Quoting spyglass (Reply 20):
The anathema in all this is, as mentioned, that the "government" gets the fines, and no entity on earth is more fiscally foolish than the US govt and its branches. Better if it went to the pax....

  

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 21):

People are such babies sometimes. If sitting 3 hours in a plane is "being held hostage" your life if probably wayyyyy to pampered..

Ahhh - yeah.
rcair1
 
Jpax
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RE: American Eagle Fined $900,000 For Tarmac Delays

Tue Nov 15, 2011 9:14 pm

Quoting T5towbar (Reply 24):
The Ball Park really gets filled up fast on weather days. Most of the deicing is done there, I think. They don't want to block the alleyways. And its a crazy situation on the ramp on weather days too.

Yup, The C guys head over to the ballpark. A and B ops have their own place to do it.

Quoting N62NA (Reply 27):
Just curious... about what % of the time do you visit the penalty box (both at EWR and at the originating airport when flying into EWR).

It varies greatly, couldn't put a percentage on it. Getting out and back in last night and today was a piece of cake, straight to the gate, but just last week I spent three hours for two flights in the ballpark. Most of the time, the ballpark is bypassed. If we do end up heading there, it's typically only for a few minutes as the aircraft occupying our gate buttons up and pushes back.

Quoting N62NA (Reply 44):
And those operational reasons may be not the most ideal in the eyes of the hostage, er, passenger.

They are free to stay behind, but good luck getting rebooked on a flight when all hell breaks loose!   No seats, no hotels, no vouchers, etc. It's a fun time, let me tell you.   
 
N62NA
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RE: American Eagle Fined $900,000 For Tarmac Delays

Tue Nov 15, 2011 9:28 pm

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 45):

It would be criminal to charge this. Do you think each and every person sitting on that plane deserves $9166 an hour? Or rather the government deserves to confiscate $9166 per hour for _your_ time?

It's hard to put a dollar amount on how much one's time is worth, especially in a hostage situation.

But I do think that instead of the money going to the government, it should be going to the victims.
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: American Eagle Fined $900,000 For Tarmac Delays

Tue Nov 15, 2011 9:57 pm

This rule also causes very stupid situations. My dad is a DL 757/767 captain and he runs into this rule sometimes. I forgot the exact details, and I may be wrong, but I believe he had to DIVERT his flight and land at a different airport because the situation on the ground when he landed would have exceeded the 3 hour rule. I think it was JFK. There needs to be common sense in this rule. Poor passengers had to land at the wrong airport, but at least they didn't have to sit in the airplane for a while!  
Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
 
N62NA
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RE: American Eagle Fined $900,000 For Tarmac Delays

Tue Nov 15, 2011 10:15 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 48):
I believe he had to DIVERT his flight and land at a different airport because the situation on the ground when he landed would have exceeded the 3 hour rule. I think it was JFK. There needs to be common sense in this rule. Poor passengers had to land at the wrong airport, but at least they didn't have to sit in the airplane for a while!

That's actually good - I'm glad he did that.

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