LAXintl
Topic Author
Posts: 20183
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

Frontier Applies For Additional Mexico Routes

Mon Nov 14, 2011 10:28 pm

As part of its upcoming Apple Vacations partnership, Frontier Airlines has filed with the DOT for several additional traffic authorities to Mexico.

Philadelphia – Cancun – 6x weekly A320 effective February 1, 2012

Cleveland – Cancun – 4x weekly A320 effective February 1, 2012

Rockford – Cancun – 3x weekly A319 effective February 1, 2012.

All routes will be operated on seasonal basis and listed as schedule service, with capacity allocated to Apple Vacations.

OST-2011-TBA
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
point2point
Posts: 2080
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2010 10:54 pm

RE: Frontier Applies For Additional Mexico Routes

Mon Nov 14, 2011 11:05 pm

.... Ole...... and interesting...


Throw in DEN-HUX, and they'll pretty much have the beach resorts covered....
 
mikefrommke
Posts: 221
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2011 12:32 am

RE: Frontier Applies For Additional Mexico Routes

Mon Nov 14, 2011 11:12 pm

Cool! Definitely interested to see how the Apple Vacations partnership evolves.
 
smoot4208
Posts: 595
Joined: Mon Feb 01, 2010 4:39 am

RE: Frontier Applies For Additional Mexico Routes

Mon Nov 14, 2011 11:20 pm

Quoting point2point (Reply 1):
Throw in DEN-HUX, and they'll pretty much have the beach resorts covered....

I think that could be a decent route for F9. Sun Country applied for 1 x weekly service there from MSP back in 2005, but it never ended up starting
 
point2point
Posts: 2080
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2010 10:54 pm

RE: Frontier Applies For Additional Mexico Routes

Mon Nov 14, 2011 11:28 pm

Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 3):
I think that could be a decent route for F9. Sun Country applied for 1 x weekly service there from MSP back in 2005,

I believe that U5 (Apple) did it from ORD, so Apple already knows the territory. If it's good or not, I guess that's another matter.....
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 18114
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: Frontier Applies For Additional Mexico Routes

Tue Nov 15, 2011 12:05 am

Quoting point2point (Reply 4):
I believe that U5 (Apple) did it from ORD, so Apple already knows the territory. If it's good or not, I guess that's another matter.....

Frontier will be flying ORD-HUX for Apple.

http://www.applevacations.com/flight-schedule/mdw-midway_ord-ohare/

A few years ago, Frontier used to fly DEN-HUX, purely as a charter for Apple, it was never scheduled service. But Apple pulled it all back to ORD.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
G500
Posts: 1252
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2011 11:45 pm

RE: Frontier Applies For Additional Mexico Routes

Tue Nov 15, 2011 12:18 am

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
As part of its upcoming Apple Vacations partnership, Frontier Airlines has filed with the DOT for several additional traffic authorities to Mexico.

Philadelphia – Cancun – 6x weekly A320 effective February 1, 2012

Cleveland – Cancun – 4x weekly A320 effective February 1, 2012

Rockford – Cancun – 3x weekly A319 effective February 1, 2012.

slowly but surely Cancun is making a come back. I remember back in 2004-2005, airlines would announce new Cancun services what seemed on a weekly basis. That place grew out of control
 
yellowtail
Posts: 3709
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2005 3:46 am

RE: Frontier Applies For Additional Mexico Routes

Tue Nov 15, 2011 12:35 am

Quoting g500 (Reply 6):
That place grew out of control

Still out of control. I don't know how anyone makes any money there.
When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
 
mikefrommke
Posts: 221
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2011 12:32 am

RE: Frontier Applies For Additional Mexico Routes

Tue Nov 15, 2011 12:52 am

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 7):
Still out of control. I don't know how anyone makes any money there.

At least this is just a shift in servce (From U5 to F9) so it doesn't represent an increase in the number of seats flown to CUN.
 
smoot4208
Posts: 595
Joined: Mon Feb 01, 2010 4:39 am

RE: Frontier Applies For Additional Mexico Routes

Tue Nov 15, 2011 1:23 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 5):
A few years ago, Frontier used to fly DEN-HUX, purely as a charter for Apple, it was never scheduled service. But Apple pulled it all back to ORD.

What year was this, and is there some time of link or website where this was announced (not that I'm doubting you; just for my own curiosity)
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 18114
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: Frontier Applies For Additional Mexico Routes

Tue Nov 15, 2011 1:31 am

Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 9):
What year was this, and is there some time of link or website where this was announced (not that I'm doubting you; just for my own curiosity)

It began in 2007 and - from memory - I think it flew for a couple of seasons:

F9 To Fly To HUX For Apple Vacations (by NZblue Jan 5 2007 in Civil Aviation)

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
User avatar
enilria
Posts: 6173
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:15 pm

RE: Frontier Applies For Additional Mexico Routes

Tue Nov 15, 2011 1:40 am

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
As part of its upcoming Apple Vacations partnership, Frontier Airlines has filed with the DOT for several additional traffic authorities to Mexico.

Philadelphia – Cancun – 6x weekly A320 effective February 1, 2012

Cleveland – Cancun – 4x weekly A320 effective February 1, 2012

Rockford – Cancun – 3x weekly A319 effective February 1, 2012.

All routes will be operated on seasonal basis and listed as schedule service, with capacity allocated to Apple Vacations.

Well, only some of the capacity is allocated to Apple...otherwise they wouldn't need traffic rights. They intend to sell tickets on the F9 brand. I would hope/assume that Apple just puts that revenue against their bill.
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 18114
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: Frontier Applies For Additional Mexico Routes

Tue Nov 15, 2011 1:59 am

Quoting enilria (Reply 11):
Well, only some of the capacity is allocated to Apple...otherwise they wouldn't need traffic rights. They intend to sell tickets on the F9 brand. I would hope/assume that Apple just puts that revenue against their bill.

As has been posted before, several of the Mexican routes are flown "in conjunction" with Apple, as is DEN-LIR.

MKE-CUN is - or was - operated in conjunction with Funjet, who guarantee a certain capacity purchase. Airtran has Apple on that route, at the moment.

mariner

[Edited 2011-11-14 18:13:20]
aeternum nauta
 
LAXintl
Topic Author
Posts: 20183
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

RE: Frontier Applies For Additional Mexico Routes

Tue Nov 15, 2011 2:46 am

They are filing for the authority as the flights will be shown as "scheduled service", the same manner many USA 3000 flights for Apple existed prior.

Anyhow for reference, pure charter flights are also run by the DOT - to Charter Office which maintains copies of contracts with bond information and intended schedules.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 18114
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: Frontier Applies For Additional Mexico Routes

Tue Nov 15, 2011 2:58 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 13):
They are filing for the authority as the flights will be shown as "scheduled service", the same manner many USA 3000 flights for Apple existed prior.

I'm told that Frontier will take over much of the remaining USA3000 flying as the airline winds down.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
mikefrommke
Posts: 221
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2011 12:32 am

RE: Frontier Applies For Additional Mexico Routes

Tue Nov 15, 2011 3:13 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 14):
I'm told that Frontier will take over much of the remaining USA3000 flying as the airline winds down.

I wonder if this means they may move from MDW to ORD or if some of U5's ORD routes could move to MDW or MKE. I'd sure love to see MKE-PUJ or MKE-PUJ.
 
Okie
Posts: 3533
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2003 11:30 am

RE: Frontier Applies For Additional Mexico Routes

Tue Nov 15, 2011 3:13 am

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
All routes will be operated on seasonal basis and listed as schedule service, with capacity allocated to Apple Vacations


I just wonder how many seats are Apple's and how many F9 has to fill?
That would be an interesting contract.

Okie
 
User avatar
mke717spotter
Posts: 1947
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 9:32 am

RE: Frontier Applies For Additional Mexico Routes

Tue Nov 15, 2011 3:33 am

Quoting mikefrommke (Reply 15):
I'd sure love to see MKE-PUJ

Don't know if you mean in general or just F9, but FL is flying MKE-PUJ for Funjet Vacations this winter and I'm pretty sure they flew it last year as well.
Will you watch the Cleveland Browns and the Detroit Lions on Sunday? Only if coach Eric Mangini resigned after a loss.
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 18114
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: Frontier Applies For Additional Mexico Routes

Tue Nov 15, 2011 3:44 am

Quoting mikefrommke (Reply 15):
I wonder if this means they may move from MDW to ORD or if some of U5's ORD routes could move to MDW or MKE. I'd sure love to see MKE-PUJ or MKE-PUJ.

I suspect most of the "pure Apple" flying, the charter stuff, will stay at ORD and I'm not sure they would split the operation.

When the third Chicago-CUN authority became vacant, Frontier applied for it as MDW-CUN, but, from memory, it went to USA3000 for ORD-CUN.

The airline has a few of interesting authorities, some of which were renewed just a few months ago - June - which is a bit odd, since by that time they must have known it was going to close.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 15222
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

RE: Frontier Applies For Additional Mexico Routes

Tue Nov 15, 2011 3:48 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 14):
I'm told that Frontier will take over much of the remaining USA3000 flying as the airline winds down.

Haven't we "been told" this for years?
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 18114
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: Frontier Applies For Additional Mexico Routes

Tue Nov 15, 2011 4:01 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 19):
Haven't we "been told" this for years?

Not by me.

I've only ever considered it since Frontier signed the new seven year contract with Apple and Mr. Bedford has spoken about it.

I dunno what others have said.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
XA744
Posts: 630
Joined: Sat Mar 13, 2004 11:40 am

RE: Frontier Applies For Additional Mexico Routes

Tue Nov 15, 2011 1:28 pm

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 7):
Still out of control. I don't know how anyone makes any money there.

Yes, you maybe right, to a certain extent...

Now, I pretty know yields may not be as good as desired, but definitely, the number of additional seats being offered to the destination from the USA/Canada, Europe and South America, is only good news to everyone in the Mayan Riviera.

Cancún is, again, gaining momentum, but eventually, market conditions will stabilize and come back to control.

As a side note, it would be very intersting to know, how much of the traffic arriving in Cancún is taking side trips to wonderful Mayaland in Central America, especially, Belize, Guatemala and Honduras.

Best regards
No matter how you fly...just never get your wings clipped !
 
Pe@rson
Posts: 16001
Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2001 6:29 pm

RE: Frontier Applies For Additional Mexico Routes

Tue Nov 15, 2011 1:30 pm

Anyone know which routes from CUN to the USA used to exist but no longer do? Thanks.
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
User avatar
enilria
Posts: 6173
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:15 pm

RE: Frontier Applies For Additional Mexico Routes

Tue Nov 15, 2011 2:43 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 12):
Quoting enilria (Reply 11):
Well, only some of the capacity is allocated to Apple...otherwise they wouldn't need traffic rights. They intend to sell tickets on the F9 brand. I would hope/assume that Apple just puts that revenue against their bill.

As has been posted before, several of the Mexican routes are flown "in conjunction" with Apple, as is DEN-LIR.

MKE-CUN is - or was - operated in conjunction with Funjet, who guarantee a certain capacity purchase. Airtran has Apple on that route, at the moment.

mariner
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 13):
They are filing for the authority as the flights will be shown as "scheduled service", the same manner many USA 3000 flights for Apple existed prior.

I was only making the point that Apple isn't buying all the seats since the services will be scheduled not charter. I'm not saying it is a new concept for them or anyone else.

Quoting okie (Reply 16):
I just wonder how many seats are Apple's and how many F9 has to fill?

My guess is that it will be flexible and inventory managed by flight. Hopefully, Apple buys the whole plane and then uses F9's distribution to sell the number of seats that they think are excess. I would hope F9 does not have risk because the seats that Apple can't sell are by definition less desirable. For example, there are probably no seats available in March and plenty for sale in April.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 19):
Quoting mariner (Reply 14):
I'm told that Frontier will take over much of the remaining USA3000 flying as the airline winds down.

Haven't we "been told" this for years?

I'm also hearing that F9 is working on a transaction that would allow USA3000 to close up earlier by effectively taking the remaining USA3K airplane into the F9 fleet through a swap with the lessor.
 
point2point
Posts: 2080
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2010 10:54 pm

RE: Frontier Applies For Additional Mexico Routes

Tue Nov 15, 2011 4:04 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
Rockford – Cancun – 3x weekly A319 effective February 1, 2012.

Question here.....

Is Rockford considered part of Chicago, like ORD and MDW would be considered the same when applying (or counting) some of these route authorities when dealing with Mexico? Or is it considered its own separate, or different market here, like the way, say maybe, Omaha and Des Moines would?

Just curious to know this myself, so if anyone can answer please here......

 
 
point2point
Posts: 2080
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2010 10:54 pm

RE: Frontier Applies For Additional Mexico Routes

Tue Nov 15, 2011 4:21 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 23):
I'm also hearing that F9 is working on a transaction that would allow USA3000 to close up earlier by effectively taking the remaining USA3K airplane into the F9 fleet through a swap with the lessor.

Interesting.... I guess one could think that F9 (RAH) is acquiring another airline..... ?? It sure does look like it, taking over first a lot of the routes and now the planes......

More airline mergermania.....?

With all of this, maybe Apple will be one of the "investors" into the new, separated F9?



[Edited 2011-11-15 08:23:24]
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 18114
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: Frontier Applies For Additional Mexico Routes

Tue Nov 15, 2011 5:47 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 23):
I was only making the point that Apple isn't buying all the seats since the services will be scheduled not charter. I'm not saying it is a new concept for them or anyone else.

And I wasn't arguing with you.

This is the first extension of the Apple/Frontier contract beyond charter, so I was making the point - for those here who don't know - how it has been functioning.

I think it's also mildly interesting that the PHL is the first new route for Republic's Frontier that goes directly against US, even though it isn't "new" competition for them.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
User avatar
enilria
Posts: 6173
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:15 pm

RE: Frontier Applies For Additional Mexico Routes

Tue Nov 15, 2011 6:12 pm

Quoting point2point (Reply 25):
Interesting.... I guess one could think that F9 (RAH) is acquiring another airline..... ?? It sure does look like it, taking over first a lot of the routes and now the planes......

In fact, the additional A320 that F9 announced in the earnings call would be taken in January is a USA3000 airplane, but there is apparently a deal for another airplane in the works that would finish off USA3000. I would assume there is a broader transaction going on between Apple Vacations (owner of U5) and F9 beyond just the charter work that could equal something akin to a merger of U5 and F9, but I don't know if these are all just incremental decisions or part of a broader deal. It's also interesting that F9 is basically moving to U5's A320 seating config.

Quoting mariner (Reply 26):
I think it's also mildly interesting that the PHL is the first new route for Republic's Frontier that goes directly against US, even though it isn't "new" competition for them.

Did USA3000 sell those tickets direct to the public? Also, I would not write off the possibility of a response from US if only because F9 is taken more seriously than U5 was.

People frequently say, "what does Enilria think F9 is supposed to do going forward?" and I think WN's schedule change re-affirms my opinion that they should pick up the pieces that WN leaves behind. They should leap into the Florida stuff WN just abandoned before G4 announces it. That stuff was good enough for FL to keep and there is no real reason why it can't be just as good for F9. They should probably also look at where DirectAir is flying and see if they can muscle them out of the way with truly scheduled service.
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 18114
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: Frontier Applies For Additional Mexico Routes

Tue Nov 15, 2011 6:32 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 27):
Did USA3000 sell those tickets direct to the public? Also, I would not write off the possibility of a response from US if only because F9 is taken more seriously than U5 was.

I believe so. USA3000 had (has?) held a scheduled authority for some time, and I am interested in the mechanics of that.

The Big Plum is that it holds ORD-CUN as scheduled, and it can't - to my knowledge - just transfer it to Frontier. I believe the authority has to go up from grabs again. Since all three available CHI-CUN authorities are presently taken, there's no leeway for Frontier to move.

I suppose Frontier could acquire the USA3000 AOC when the airline is wound up, but would it be worth it?

Quoting enilria (Reply 27):
They should leap into the Florida stuff WN just abandoned before G4 announces it.

We agree there. I'd like to see Frontier add BMI/CRW/TYS-MCO.

But the bigger Florida puzzle to me comes back to USA3000. RSW used to be a big station for the airline/Apple, but the last three routes (STL, ORD, CLE) go in January and I don't see anyone replacing that flying.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
LAXintl
Topic Author
Posts: 20183
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

RE: Frontier Applies For Additional Mexico Routes

Tue Nov 15, 2011 7:36 pm

Yes being scheduled service on many routes, USA3000 does offer seat only sales on its Cancun flying. But since they are a wholly owned by Apple it really did not matter as the money went into the same pot at the end of the day.

How the F9-Apple deal is structured I don’t have a clue, however one model I have seen was used with ATA and Pleasant Holidays in its Hawaiii L-1011 flying where Pleasant would take the commercial risk and essentially own the whole airplane, but ATA could remarket seats itself and pay Pleasant a fee (was about $75 eachway at one time). In later years, the model was flipped around where ATA took the full commercial risk, with PHH paid ATA a fee for each seat it sold.

I doubt F9 would take any commercial risk on this flying, so I suspect by former example is much more likely than the latter one. But how many if any seats that F9 can or will opt to sell is unknown to me.


Speaking of Chicago-Cancun, now with SWA going international I could easily see them try to seek a CUN link from MDW if the opportunity arose.

[Edited 2011-11-15 11:47:09]
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
flyingcat
Posts: 339
Joined: Tue May 29, 2007 10:33 am

RE: Frontier Applies For Additional Mexico Routes

Tue Nov 15, 2011 8:10 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 29):
Speaking of Chicago-Cancun, now with SWA going international I could easily see them try to seek a CUN link from MDW if the opportunity arose

There is a two issues MDW does not have customs and Mexico does not have preclearance facilities.
 
LAXintl
Topic Author
Posts: 20183
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

RE: Frontier Applies For Additional Mexico Routes

Tue Nov 15, 2011 8:18 pm

Quoting flyingcaT (Reply 30):
There is a two issues MDW does not have customs and Mexico does not have preclearance facilities.

   

I guess I must have been dreaming when having passed through.

MDW does certainly have FIS facilities - nice ones at that which opened in 2002.

Airlines like ATA in the past, and today Volaris utilize the facility on a daily basis.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
luv2fly
Posts: 11056
Joined: Tue May 13, 2003 2:57 am

RE: Frontier Applies For Additional Mexico Routes

Tue Nov 15, 2011 8:19 pm

Is Frontier going to operate these flights in reverse order? Say with an aircraft arriving in CUN from a scheduled flight now operating say CUN to CLE and then CLE back to CUN and then that same aircraft continuing its scheduled service. That way they do not have to reposition an aircraft? Especially to CLE where it does not fly to begin with.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 18114
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: Frontier Applies For Additional Mexico Routes

Tue Nov 15, 2011 8:47 pm

Quoting luv2fly (Reply 32):
Is Frontier going to operate these flights in reverse order? Say with an aircraft arriving in CUN from a scheduled flight now operating say CUN to CLE and then CLE back to CUN and then that same aircraft continuing its scheduled service. That way they do not have to reposition an aircraft? Especially to CLE where it does not fly to begin with.

Some will operate that way, some are repositions. At the moment, an A320 flies the short hop PHL-BWI for the BWI Apple flights, but that may change as the (Apple) frequencies increase in December.

The big one is BOS, which, presently, has the longest reposition. So Frontier will be flying a 1 x week scheduled DEN-BOS on Fridays and BOS-DEN on Sundays. Oddly, the first few flights seem to be booked okay.

Again, any or all of this is subject to change as new Apple service is added.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
yellowtail
Posts: 3709
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2005 3:46 am

RE: Frontier Applies For Additional Mexico Routes

Tue Nov 15, 2011 9:06 pm

Quoting XA744 (Reply 21):
As a side note, it would be very intersting to know, how much of the traffic arriving in Cancún is taking side trips to wonderful Mayaland in Central America, especially, Belize, Guatemala and Honduras.

Actually just finished a study on it.....and it is time of the year dependent but about 8% of the traffic that needs to fly in/out of Belize (for only Belize, not as part of a larger mundo maya multi country package) is using CUN.....more Belize VFR than tourism but both markets use it. The EU traffic to Belize eager to avoid the visa issues also uses it. I would guesstimate each and every BA flight carries 10 BZE bound pax.

Sidetrips...not very many.

Package tours (esp Archaeology) that do Yucatan, Riveria Maya, Belize, Guatemala....is a bout 10pax per day.

"Backpackers" that do some form of multicountry that use CUN as the starting point STRICTLY because of the airfare advantage there is (at least the ones that make it to Belize) is about 20pax per day.

So as you can see...not huge....but very sizable.
When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
 
point2point
Posts: 2080
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2010 10:54 pm

RE: Frontier Applies For Additional Mexico Routes

Tue Nov 15, 2011 10:14 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 33):
Again, any or all of this is subject to change as new Apple service is added.

More service is going to be added?

So much speculation of F9 needing a codeshare partner, or that it would be best taken over by UA or WN, or that it should merge with (take your pick here) VX, NK, B6, US, AS, HA, AA, DL (anyone that I forgot to list?... oh, SY) but then what does little ol' F9 do?


................................................ It seems like it's taking over U5 ...........................................



Quoting LAXintl (Reply 29):
How the F9-Apple deal is structured I don%u2019t have a clue, however one model I have seen was used with ATA and Pleasant Holidays in its Hawaiii L-1011 flying where Pleasant would take the commercial risk and essentially own the whole airplane, but ATA could remarket seats itself and pay Pleasant a fee (was about $75 eachway at one time). In later years, the model was flipped around where ATA took the full commercial risk, with PHH paid ATA a fee for each seat it sold.

Actually, one would think that airlines and travel agencies are really an ideal match for each other, but it's not really there.

G4 is the only U.S. ariline doing that, and how well are they doing? Maybe G4 could use some competition?

I suppose that right now, F9 is seeing what the world of Apple (Travel) can offer to it, and likewise Apple is looking to see what the world of F9 can offer back. Or maybe it's gotten to be more than that at this point?

And as an airline, even with two 800 pound gorillas on the loose, F9 has shown that it does do well in DEN, I don't think anyone can really argue that, other than yes.... something like the all the eggs in one basket one.

But if there is a lot of Apple Travel involved, suddenly all of the eggs aren't in one basket, are they? And it could make it harder for competition to take revenge in these instances......

  

Hmmmmm? Is maybe something more stirring here?
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 18114
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: Frontier Applies For Additional Mexico Routes

Tue Nov 15, 2011 10:50 pm

Quoting point2point (Reply 35):
More service is going to be added?

Sure. The contract is in its very early days (a month?) from only two destinations with limited frequency. In December/January, it all bumps up and more cities/frequencies are added.

That's this winter and USA3000 is still around, especially at ORD. In the middle of 2012, it goes away and someone has to fly all that ORD stuff. Since BB has said it will grow considerably next winter ("almost double") I have to assume that the ORD flying will be at least part of it.

There's also the Airtran contract - it is still flying all Apple stuff at at least PIT and MKE, and I don't know what happens to that. Will Southwest want it? I doubt it can match the Airtran - or Frontier - costs.

Sun Country does work for Apple, too - LAN and DFW eg - but I don't know how long that contract runs or what will happen to it or to the JetBlue/Apple JFK/LRM.

Here's the Apple schedule for PHL - but there's a wee box top right which will take you to all the other airport schedules (except, oddly, SWF). It will show you who is flying what for Apple this coming winter:

http://www.applevacations.com/flight-schedule/phl-philadelphia/

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
usairways85
Posts: 3537
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2001 11:59 am

RE: Frontier Applies For Additional Mexico Routes

Tue Nov 15, 2011 11:00 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 27):
Did USA3000 sell those tickets direct to the public? Also, I would not write off the possibility of a response from US if only because F9 is taken more seriously than U5 was.
Quoting mariner (Reply 28):
I believe so. USA3000 had (has?) held a scheduled authority for some time, and I am interested in the mechanics of that.

While U5 may have scheduled authority they have backed off over the years (at least from PHL). I vaguely remember PHL with 3 or 4 U5 destinations and now it's 2. Who knows what F9 wants to do with the service.

As far as a response from US goes, I doubt you'll see much. They already run 3-4 frequencies during the winter (one on the 762).
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 18114
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: Frontier Applies For Additional Mexico Routes

Tue Nov 15, 2011 11:06 pm

Quoting usairways85 (Reply 37):
While U5 may have scheduled authority they have backed off over the years (at least from PHL). I vaguely remember PHL with 3 or 4 U5 destinations and now it's 2. Who knows what F9 wants to do with the service.

It's been winding down everywhere. Here's the route map of what is left today today:

http://www.usa3000.com/wherewefly.htm

By the end of January, it will be down to only Chicago/ORD - and not even all of that.

mariner

[Edited 2011-11-15 15:08:29]
aeternum nauta
 
point2point
Posts: 2080
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2010 10:54 pm

RE: Frontier Applies For Additional Mexico Routes

Tue Nov 15, 2011 11:36 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 38):
It's been winding down everywhere. Here's the route map of what is left today today:

http://www.usa3000.com/wherewefly.htm

Out of my own curiosity, would anyone happen to have easy accessed info on routes/schedules that U5 flew some 3-4 years ago or so, and if so, when compared with today's (or this arriving season's) Apple public charters schedule, easily figure out how much of a rough percentage is this now being flown by F9? By the other airlines?

I guess that I could go a do a lot of digging (which it would be) to find this out, but if anyone has easy access to this info (like old timetables) or knows how best to do this, this info could be enlightening.....

But at any rate, would it be safe to speculate that F9 could probably be doing more than half the flying here on old U5 routes this winter/spring season?

 
 
usairways85
Posts: 3537
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2001 11:59 am

RE: Frontier Applies For Additional Mexico Routes

Tue Nov 15, 2011 11:46 pm

Quoting point2point (Reply 39):
Out of my own curiosity, would anyone happen to have easy accessed info on routes/schedules that U5 flew some 3-4 years ago or so,

This looks something like U5 back at the peak. Though, I am not sure of the exact time fram of this route map.

http://www.airlineroutemaps.com/USA/USA3000.shtml
 
XA744
Posts: 630
Joined: Sat Mar 13, 2004 11:40 am

RE: Frontier Applies For Additional Mexico Routes

Tue Nov 15, 2011 11:56 pm

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 34):
Actually just finished a study on it.....

Hey, Yellowtail, thanks for the input... very enlightening and useful info, indeed !!!

Best regards
No matter how you fly...just never get your wings clipped !
 
point2point
Posts: 2080
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2010 10:54 pm

RE: Frontier Applies For Additional Mexico Routes

Wed Nov 16, 2011 12:05 am

Quoting usairways85 (Reply 40):
This looks something like U5 back at the peak. Though, I am not sure of the exact time fram of this route map.

http://www.airlineroutemaps.com/USA/USA3000.shtml

Oh WOW! I had no idea that this was so BIG!

And as for the time frame, that would be helpful as well, although I don't see one listed on the site. And I would also think that this is older than 3-4 years ago? And there hasn't been nearly as many cities/routes/flights as on this timetable as of - let's just say here - winter season of 2007, correct?


edit added - I'm looking at the U.S. page of the website and - TransMeridian Airlines (2005)? LOL, this one came out of nowhere......

[Edited 2011-11-15 16:09:01]
 
Mexicana757
Posts: 2633
Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2001 3:21 pm

RE: Frontier Applies For Additional Mexico Routes

Wed Nov 16, 2011 1:53 am

Quoting mikefrommke (Reply 15):
I wonder if this means they may move from MDW to ORD or if some of U5's ORD routes could move to MDW

I was thinking about that the other day. If Frontier ends up taking over U5 routes would they end up moving their ops to ORD from MDW ... But at ORD they wouldn't have any gate space unless they do what U5 is doing and have all their flights at T5.

Quoting mariner (Reply 18):
I suspect most of the "pure Apple" flying, the charter stuff, will stay at ORD and I'm not sure they would split the operation.

When the third Chicago-CUN authority became vacant, Frontier applied for it as MDW-CUN, but, from memory, it went to USA3000 for ORD-CUN.

I too believe F9 will just fly the Apple charters out of ORD. But F9 in the past did show interest in flying out of ORD. I believe the pdf document showing F9s interest in the early 2000's is still available at www.flychicago.com. And you are correct F9 was the other airline along with U5 to apply for Chicago-CUN authority after ATA ceased ops.

Quoting point2point (Reply 24):
Is Rockford considered part of Chicago, like ORD and MDW would be considered the same when applying (or counting) some of these route authorities when dealing with Mexico?

I believe RFD is considered as a separate city.

Quoting mariner (Reply 28):
The Big Plum is that it holds ORD-CUN as scheduled, and it can't - to my knowledge - just transfer it to Frontier. I believe the authority has to go up from grabs again. Since all three available CHI-CUN authorities are presently taken, there's no leeway for Frontier to move.

I suppose Frontier could acquire the USA3000 AOC when the airline is wound up, but would it be worth it?

WIll be interesting to see what F9 does with this route. Will they take up U5's AOC or let it go and reapply for it knowing that others will want to have it. If they do get it, would be nice to have them operate that out of MDW instead of ORD. Last airline to operate schedule CUN flights out of MDW was ATA. IIRC in the last two year of ops the flight was flown 5X weekly.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 29):
Speaking of Chicago-Cancun, now with SWA going international I could easily see them try to seek a CUN link from MDW if the opportunity arose.

I would also include on that list Spirit. With their expansion at ORD I'm sure they would like to get their hands on this authority.

If Frontier doesn't purchase U5's AOC I see a three way battle to get this route authority; F9, NK and WN/FL.

Quoting flyingcaT (Reply 30):
There is a two issues MDW does not have customs and Mexico does not have preclearance facilities.
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 31):
MDW does certainly have FIS facilities - nice ones at that which opened in 2002.

Airlines like ATA in the past, and today Volaris utilize the facility on a daily basis.

As LAXint said, MDW does have FIS gates. The airport has two FIS gates, A2 and A3. Airlines using the FIS facilities are Porter, VivaAerobus and Volaris.
 
User avatar
enilria
Posts: 6173
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:15 pm

RE: Frontier Applies For Additional Mexico Routes

Wed Nov 16, 2011 2:25 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 28):
The Big Plum is that it holds ORD-CUN as scheduled, and it can't - to my knowledge - just transfer it to Frontier.
Quoting mariner (Reply 28):
I suppose Frontier could acquire the USA3000 AOC when the airline is wound up, but would it be worth it?

There is certainly precedent for carriers purchasing int'l route authorities. The DOT would have to approve. I don't know why Mexico should be different from Pan Am's Pacific division or Eastern's Latin ops.

Quoting mariner (Reply 28):
Quoting enilria (Reply 27):
They should leap into the Florida stuff WN just abandoned before G4 announces it.

We agree there. I'd like to see Frontier add BMI/CRW/TYS-MCO.

  

Quoting mariner (Reply 28):
RSW used to be a big station for the airline/Apple, but the last three routes (STL, ORD, CLE) go in January and I don't see anyone replacing that flying.

Well, I do know the story on that. So, Allegiant made one key decision differently than Apple/U5. Apple leased new-ish airplanes and G4 didn't. Apple thus couldn't afford to only fly them when demand was at its peak like G4 does. So, to utilize them in off-times it began flying to Florida. They were disadvantaged right off the bat because the best times went to the Apple ops and Florida got the leftovers. While they were mostly able to fill that stuff up it was extremely low yield and had no tour product attached to it to subsidize losses. As fuel went up the losses flying to Florida went from maybe 1/2 the profits of the Apple flying to much more than the Apple flying profits. They began trying to exit the owned airline side of the business and have been ever since. Bottom line, U5 lost a lot of money on the Florida ops. I do not expect anybody to grab them. OTOH, FL did very well in the markets it was flying. The main reasons WN is exiting those routes are: 1) small station costs, 2) overall CASM increase FL>WN, and 3) the looming loss of bag fee revenue which is a huge deal for Florida since it is leisure/low fare/and has few elites to opt out of paying.

Quoting mariner (Reply 36):
Quoting point2point (Reply 35):
More service is going to be added?

Sure. The contract is in its very early days (a month?) from only two destinations with limited frequency. In December/January, it all bumps up and more cities/frequencies are added.

I'm told it will use 6 lines of flying in peak, probably only partial use of those 6 lines, though.

Quoting Mexicana757 (Reply 43):
I believe RFD is considered as a separate city.

When all these old bilaterals were written these newer alternates were not considered.
 
point2point
Posts: 2080
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2010 10:54 pm

RE: Frontier Applies For Additional Mexico Routes

Wed Nov 16, 2011 10:43 pm

Quoting Mexicana757 (Reply 43):
I believe RFD is considered as a separate city.
Quoting enilria (Reply 44):
When all these old bilaterals were written these newer alternates were not considered.

Thanks both for the info. I think that is the case as well, that they are separate markets, in that ORD and MDW are about 15 or so miles apart, as where RFD and the Chicago airports are about 65+ miles apart.

Quoting mariner (Reply 36):
Here's the Apple schedule for PHL - but there's a wee box top right which will take you to all the other airport schedules (except, oddly, SWF). It will show you who is flying what for Apple this coming winter:



http://www.applevacations.com/flight-schedule/phl-philadelphia/
Quoting mariner (Reply 38):
It's been winding down everywhere. Here's the route map of what is left today today:

http://www.usa3000.com/wherewefly.htm

By the end of January, it will be down to only Chicago/ORD - and not even all of that.
Quoting point2point (Reply 39):
But at any rate, would it be safe to speculate that F9 could probably be doing more than half the flying here on old U5 routes this winter/spring season?

I looked at all of this new info, and having some non-busy time sitting at my computer, this is the info that I could get from the current season:

There are 19 U.S. cities listed this season, which we can call the origination cities. I have them listed here, along with the number of non-stop destinations offered from them this season.

BWI - 2, BOS - 2, ORD - 9, CVG - 2, CLE - 2, CMH - 1, DFW - 4, DEN - 6, DET - 2, IND - 1, JFK - 1, LAN - 3, MKE - 6, MSP - 8, PIT - 2, PHL - 2, RFD - 2, SLC - 1, STL - 4

Now there are the 10 destination cities, and following them is the number of non-stop cities of origin to them.

CAN -18, SJD - 3, LIR - 4, COZ - 5, PVR - 4, ZIH - 4, PUJ - 14, HUX - 1, MJB - 6, LRM -1,

I think this is correct, because if we add the number of non-stops served from the origination cities (60) and then the number of non-stops with the destination cities (60) they add up... good sign that something is going correctly.

Next, 7 different airlines are on these routes, and listed below is the airline, and the number of city-pairs they are involved with, and the percentage. The sum of all the airlines is 72, because there is on some routes more than one airline here....

F9 - 26 - 34.21%
U5 - 17 - 22.37%
SY - 15 - 19.74%
FL - 12 -15.79%
B6 - 3 - 3.95%
AM - 2 - 2.63%
AS - 1 - 1.32%

Okay, I know that this isn't the best measurement, because there is also frequency, which I have given no consideration here, and that was just too cumbersome for me to do it that way for now. But I do think that this is a least a start of a basis to see how Apple is using other airlines for their vacation packages.

And with the above, F9 is on just over a third of the routes. Another trend here that I noticed is that as the U5 flights are being discontinued, it is F9 almost in every instance stepping in and taking over the route.




 



[Edited 2011-11-16 15:03:46]
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 18114
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: Frontier Applies For Additional Mexico Routes

Wed Nov 16, 2011 11:33 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 44):
There is certainly precedent for carriers purchasing int'l route authorities. The DOT would have to approve. I don't know why Mexico should be different from Pan Am's Pacific division or Eastern's Latin ops.

That's true. I don't know.

To the best of my knowledge, USA3000 still holds PHL-CUN and CLE-CUN and yet Frontier is making a new application rather than asking for those authorities to be transferred.

I'm sure LAXIntl knows the process better than I.

Quoting enilria (Reply 44):
So, Allegiant made one key decision differently than Apple/U5. Apple leased new-ish airplanes and G4 didn't.

Good point. That problem of low summer/high winter is the reason Apple is making these moves. For Frontier, the problem is reversed, which is why - I think - this is a happy marriage.

I'm still puzzled about RSW, though.

Quoting point2point (Reply 45):
Another trend here that I noticed is that as the U5 flights are being discontinued, it is F9 almost in every instance stepping in and taking over the route.

Yes. I am told that process will continue but again, I don't know how long the contracts with other airlines run.

But I assume that Frontier will take over the bulk of the ORD flying and - I think - it is an interesting back door for the airline into ORD.

I'm happy to let it play out as it will.  

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
LAXintl
Topic Author
Posts: 20183
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

RE: Frontier Applies For Additional Mexico Routes

Thu Nov 17, 2011 3:26 pm

Sure route authorities can be transferred by financial transactions – that is essentially what happened earlier this year with CO’s authorities folded into to UA , and just yesterday DOT approved SWA acquiring FL’s international authorities.

However there is a fine line the DOT has walked between things like mergers and wholesale acquisitions of networks ala PA-UA Pacific deal versus a single route transfer. Part of this is the huge grey area the department calls “public interest”.

So yes I surely believe F9 could acquire some of U5 authorities (however virtually all are free to be had, so no need to spend cash) it would likely have been better to do so a year ago when the airline was being wound down then today.
I’m sure a proposed transfer today – of a popular route like Chicago-Cancun might get a carrier or two to raise an eyebrow and argue such a transfer is not in the public interest, and that a limited entry market should be put up for a full carrier selection process instead by the DOT.


While on this topic though – I do wonder what the plan for the Brendan Airways (USA 3000) certificate is. It certainly does have some value - to a start up at the very least, so to simply wind it down and turn the lights off and walk away seems a bit bizarre.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 18114
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: Frontier Applies For Additional Mexico Routes

Thu Nov 17, 2011 5:59 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 47):
Sure route authorities can be transferred by financial transactions – that is essentially what happened earlier this year with CO’s authorities folded into to UA , and just yesterday DOT approved SWA acquiring FL’s international authorities.

But that's my point - that to my knowledge, it requires the purchase of the AOC.

Enilria's point was more sophisticated - as he reminded me, I don't think any other airline had to buy the Pan Am AOC in order to acquire some of their international routes - the Pacific division, for example.

As to Mexico, there was a case when Delta tried - through the DOT - to transfer a LAX-GDL authority to a Connection carrier and Frontier challenged it and said that if Delta didn't want the authority for itself, it should be open to all.

Delta withdrew the application.

I cannot think that the DOT would simply let Brendan transfer ORD-CUN to Frontier - but if Frontier were to buy the Brendan AOC, there wouldn't be a problem.

So - as I said before - is that AOC worth it to Frontier?

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
point2point
Posts: 2080
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2010 10:54 pm

RE: Frontier Applies For Additional Mexico Routes

Thu Nov 17, 2011 6:13 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 47):
I do wonder what the plan for the Brendan Airways (USA 3000) certificate is. It certainly does have some value - to a start up at the very least, so to simply wind it down and turn the lights off and walk away seems a bit bizarre.

I don't know how much it would be worth but...

Quoting mariner (Reply 48):
I cannot think that the DOT would simply let Brendan transfer ORD-CUN to Frontier - but if Frontier were to buy the Brendan AOC, there wouldn't be a problem.

So - as I said before - is that AOC worth it to Frontier?

With the Apple Vacations and F9 relationship growing and getting tighter, I could imagine that there has already been discussion here about this certificate? Maybe the Brendan certificate be used in exchange for stock for this new F9, at least some shares?