Speedbird741
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BBC Documentary On First 747-400 Delivered To BA

Wed Nov 16, 2011 8:22 pm

I believe some of you will enjoy this little documentary as much as I did. Although I would like it to have focused more on the delivery of the aircraft, it is still very interesting. Enjoy looking at those gracious birds, which today are unfortunately being retired.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWgvEHEycFw - Part one

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MzqcWBsDJY&feature=related - Part two

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OW-Jfa5MRPg&feature=related - Part three

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zE7n...lb4CA&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL - Part four

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CFy5P...F_OkI&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL - Part five

Speedbird741
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AV8AJET
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RE: BBC Documentary On First 747-400 Delivered To BA

Wed Nov 16, 2011 8:45 pm

Thanks for sharing! The BA 747-400's have always been some of my favourite 744's to travel on.
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theginge
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RE: BBC Documentary On First 747-400 Delivered To BA

Wed Nov 16, 2011 9:01 pm

Interesting in Part 5 where they talk about lack of investment in runway capacity......

Only in the UK could nothing change 20 years later!!
 
warden145
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RE: BBC Documentary On First 747-400 Delivered To BA

Wed Nov 16, 2011 9:14 pm

I have said it before, and I will say it again...in my eyes, there is no aircraft gracing today's skies (with the possible exception of N707JT) that's more beautiful than a Speedbird 747-436. The Union Jack on the tail can look a bit odd on other aircraft, but in my opinion it fits the 747's tail perfectly. I've had the opportunity to fly on 4 of these wonderful ships, and hope that I'll have many more opportunities before the last one leaves the skies.

Thank you for posting the video...I'm saving all 5 parts to my computer for posterity. I know that the day's coming sooner rather than later, but there will be tears in my eyes when the last one is retired...
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shamrock321
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RE: BBC Documentary On First 747-400 Delivered To BA

Wed Nov 16, 2011 9:31 pm

@theginge you have no idea how untrue that comment is!
 
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shamrock604
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RE: BBC Documentary On First 747-400 Delivered To BA

Wed Nov 16, 2011 10:08 pm

Quoting theginge (Reply 2):
Quoting shamrock321 (Reply 4):
@theginge you have no idea how untrue that comment is!

Yup, he's right! Meet your brothers across the Irish sea.... we have a problem with that here too! Planning, enquiry, planning, dithering, enquiry, planning.......
 
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RE: BBC Documentary On First 747-400 Delivered To BA

Wed Nov 16, 2011 10:27 pm

Quoting shamrock321 (Reply 4):
theginge you have no idea how untrue that comment is!

Where has the investment been then? MAN got a second runway, LCY popped up, but apart from that?


Dan  
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shamrock604
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RE: BBC Documentary On First 747-400 Delivered To BA

Wed Nov 16, 2011 10:41 pm

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 6):
Where has the investment been then? MAN got a second runway, LCY popped up, but apart from that?

We're just making the point that it is not only the UK that suffers from the complex of taking years to get anything done!  
 
vv701
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RE: BBC Documentary On First 747-400 Delivered To BA

Thu Nov 17, 2011 12:36 am

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 6):
Where has the investment been then? MAN got a second runway, LCY popped up, but apart from that?

Well before them there was always LGW. Their runway was opened in July 1958. Of course back then LHR had its third operational runway.

We must not be greedy.
 
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RE: BBC Documentary On First 747-400 Delivered To BA

Thu Nov 17, 2011 12:39 am

Quoting shamrock604 (Reply 7):
We're just making the point that it is not only the UK that suffers from the complex of taking years to get anything done!

Ahh my apologies -I got wrong end of the stick there  
Quoting VV701 (Reply 8):
We must not be greedy.

Well we'll soon be getting a four runway super airport in the Thames anyway  
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AeroWesty
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RE: BBC Documentary On First 747-400 Delivered To BA

Thu Nov 17, 2011 12:53 am

Quoting Speedbird741 (Thread starter):
Enjoy looking at those gracious birds, which today are unfortunately being retired.

Thanks for posting these links. My first trip on BA 747s was LAX-LHR-LAX in early '92, with the 747(100? 200?) outbound, with a then brand-new 744 returning. Amazing that it's been so long now, that a few of the early 744s are already scheduled for break-up.

The return flight was only memorable that due to either a de-rated take-off or us simply being full to the gills, we had such a long take-off roll the guy behind me was prompted to let out a "Come on, baby, FLY!" before we got into the air.
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Independence76
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RE: BBC Documentary On First 747-400 Delivered To BA

Thu Nov 17, 2011 12:38 pm

Interesting programme....

I have to be honest, and I might sound crazy, but I would love to see that Landor livery back in the sky...
 
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garpd
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RE: BBC Documentary On First 747-400 Delivered To BA

Thu Nov 17, 2011 12:57 pm

Quoting Independence76 (Reply 11):

I have to be honest, and I might sound crazy, but I would love to see that Landor livery back in the sky...

No, no, not crazy at all. There are quite a few of us with similar wishes. Only way it'll happen is in the form of a retrojet though, and that is a long shot as it is.
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qf002
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RE: BBC Documentary On First 747-400 Delivered To BA

Thu Nov 17, 2011 2:37 pm

Just finished the first part -- oh so much has changed in 20 years   
 
Eirules
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RE: BBC Documentary On First 747-400 Delivered To BA

Thu Nov 17, 2011 3:23 pm

Great to look back on what was considered "the future", 20 years ago.

Whatever happened to Air Europe? How did the giant that was AA and the little brother that was BA have such different experiences that have led them to the airlines that they are today? The disappearance of TW and PA etc

But some things never change - VS and their small fry world against us attitude and their jack russel of a chairman. BD worried about being swallowed up by a larger carrier. And of course the AA mad dogs still flying...

Excellent documentary though
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Gingersnap
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RE: BBC Documentary On First 747-400 Delivered To BA

Thu Nov 17, 2011 5:13 pm

Quoting EIRules (Reply 14):
Whatever happened to Air Europe?

They went bankrupt in 1991, party due to a downturn in traffic and overextended financial costs.
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gothamspotter
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RE: BBC Documentary On First 747-400 Delivered To BA

Thu Nov 17, 2011 6:44 pm

Quoting theginge (Reply 2):
Only in the UK could nothing change 20 years later!!

See also: The US.
 
baw217
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RE: BBC Documentary On First 747-400 Delivered To BA

Thu Nov 17, 2011 7:20 pm

I saw this last night. It is a good documentary.


AA in the 1980's wanted Europe and LHR to be opened up for them and other US carriers.

AA gained LHR access after buying TWA. However the then AA chief exec said if they could get the rights to fly onwards to another destination then they would have no problem with BA (in this case) to flying internal US routes.

So now Europe is open to the American carriers, why isn't the US open to the European carriers? One flight a day between say LAX/SFO and HNL on BA or LH metel is not going to affect U.S. carriers and all the major alliances will just codeshare on any additional flights whilst updating thier ATI's to cover US internal flights.

The above is probably to dicuss in another thread at another time, but it just got me thinking.
 
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FlyCaledonian
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RE: BBC Documentary On First 747-400 Delivered To BA

Thu Nov 17, 2011 8:09 pm

Oh dear, no crystal balls were present in part 5! It talks of how civil aviation is growing in a world where there was no major threat of war. Within two years of this we'd had the First Gulf War and a major recession, which severely hit air travel wolrdwide!

Seeing AA and BA linked up as they are today, it's almost hard to believe they were so against each other back then. However, also think of all the deals BA was thwarted from pulling off in the 1990s - merger/acquisition - with SN, KL, CO and UA at different times.

Crandall's arguement about LHR access is also interesting - at this time only one UK carrier (BA) and two US carrieres (PA and TW) had LHR access. When UA and AA acquired the LHR rights from PA and TW respectively, the UK government negotiated an amendment to Bermuda II to allow a second UK carrier access from LHR to the USA, namely VS. Given that BA also had domestic and then European competition from LHR in the form of BD, it can't be said that the UK was that uncompetitve given the situation in a lot of other European countries prior to the single aviation market in 1992.
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Someone83
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RE: BBC Documentary On First 747-400 Delivered To BA

Thu Nov 17, 2011 8:13 pm

Quoting BAW217 (Reply 17):
So now Europe is open to the American carriers, why isn't the US open to the European carriers?

American carriers doesn't have any more access to Europe than vice verca. Neither can fly within the other continent
 
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RE: BBC Documentary On First 747-400 Delivered To BA

Thu Nov 17, 2011 8:16 pm

Quoting BAW217 (Reply 17):
AA gained LHR access after buying TWA.

By buying TWA's LHR routes, not TWA.

Quoting BAW217 (Reply 17):
So now Europe is open to the American carriers, why isn't the US open to the European carriers? One flight a day between say LAX/SFO and HNL on BA or LH metel is not going to affect U.S. carriers and all the major alliances will just codeshare on any additional flights whilst updating thier ATI's to cover US internal flights.

The US, like almost all countries (with rare exceptions like the European single market for European carriers only), will never agree to cabotage. US carriers do not have cabotage rights within any European countries. They only have 5th freedom flights on international routes, just like European carriers have 5th freedom rights beyond the U.S., subject to haing the same rights from the 3rd country involved.

[Edited 2011-11-17 12:18:10]
 
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shamrock604
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RE: BBC Documentary On First 747-400 Delivered To BA

Thu Nov 17, 2011 9:07 pm

Quoting gothamspotter (Reply 16):
See also: The US.

Hmmm... perhaps its an English speaking "thang".  
 
shankly
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RE: BBC Documentary On First 747-400 Delivered To BA

Thu Nov 17, 2011 9:41 pm

What an interesting historical perspective, more so in that there was absolutely no reference to some of the big issues which dominate civil transport today:

1. Low cost airlines as we know them now - SWA in US and Easy/Ryanair in Europe
2. The emergence of the Middle Eastern hub giants
3. Alliances, which effectively negate the need for the landing rights so hotly contested by AA and BA back then
4. The subsequent collapse of many of the European state airlines

Interestingly also saw only one Airbus in all those clips...The Dan Air A300
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MaverickM11
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RE: BBC Documentary On First 747-400 Delivered To BA

Sat Nov 19, 2011 7:25 pm

Quoting BAW217 (Reply 17):

So now Europe is open to the American carriers, why isn't the US open to the European carriers?
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 20):
The US, like almost all countries (with rare exceptions like the European single market for European carriers only), will never agree to cabotage

I will never understand why EU carriers want access to the domestic market. It's like a cancer patient wanting more cancer. EU carriers would get absolutely annihilated in the US--0they're a solid decade behind the US carriers in terms of deregulation.

Quoting someone83 (Reply 19):
American carriers doesn't have any more access to Europe than vice verca. Neither can fly within the other continent

US carriers can and (rarely) do fly within Europe, but the results are so dreadful that tags are avoided as often as possible. Why would the EU want that?
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jcs17
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RE: BBC Documentary On First 747-400 Delivered To BA

Sat Nov 19, 2011 8:12 pm

Very cool. What was the date of delivery for the first -400?
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lhr380
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RE: BBC Documentary On First 747-400 Delivered To BA

Sat Nov 19, 2011 8:23 pm

Great viewing. Never knew BNLC was the first 400 for the carrier.
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shamrock604
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RE: BBC Documentary On First 747-400 Delivered To BA

Sat Nov 19, 2011 8:27 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 23):
I will never understand why EU carriers want access to the domestic market. It's like a cancer patient wanting more cancer. EU carriers would get absolutely annihilated in the US--0they're a solid decade behind the US carriers in terms of deregulation.

Not all of them - i would suggest Irish and British Carriers are significantly ahead of the curve.
 
tcasalert
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RE: BBC Documentary On First 747-400 Delivered To BA

Sat Nov 19, 2011 10:12 pm

Great programme, very interesting viewing. I wish they made interesting documentaries like this these days.

Quoting lhr380 (Reply 25):
Great viewing. Never knew BNLC was the first 400 for the carrier.

It wasn't. They took LA on 30/06/1989, LC on 21/07/1989 and LB on 31/07/1989.
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Speedbird741
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RE: BBC Documentary On First 747-400 Delivered To BA

Sat Nov 19, 2011 10:22 pm

Quoting TCASAlert (Reply 27):
It wasn't. They took LA on 30/06/1989, LC on 21/07/1989 and LB on 31/07/1989.

I am not certain of this, so please do correct if I wrong, but I believe LC entered into revenue service prior to LA or LB.

Speedbird741
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FlyCaledonian
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RE: BBC Documentary On First 747-400 Delivered To BA

Sat Nov 19, 2011 10:53 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 23):
I will never understand why EU carriers want access to the domestic market. It's like a cancer patient wanting more cancer. EU carriers would get absolutely annihilated in the US--0they're a solid decade behind the US carriers in terms of deregulation.
Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 23):
US carriers can and (rarely) do fly within Europe, but the results are so dreadful that tags are avoided as often as possible. Why would the EU want that?

Tags were a lot more common 20 years ago than today. For BA it had PA and TW operating tags from London, and it also saw PA operating a mini hub at Frankfurt and TW had some European tags from Paris. As is pointed out in the documentary, BA was privatised in the 1980s but many of its European competitors were still state owned. It took over the private BCal in 1988, but still had some significant competition from British Midland, Air Europe and the then-still upstart Virgin Atlantic. BA was looking for opportunities to grow, and it didn't see why all the US carriers should gain access to LHR, when BA would get pretty much nothing in return (i.e. if Bermuda II was changed). As I pointed out in an earlier post, the only real change affected under Bermuda II was to allow VS access to LHR (for USA services) when AA and UA acquired the rights from TW and PA respectively to operate into LHR.

In the 1990s BA tried a whole host of things to break into Europe. It set up Deutsche BA to continue operating German internal services after reunification of Germany ended the rights of BA and PA to operate the German services to/from Berlin; it acquired a stake (and eventual ownership) of TAT European in France; it tried to merge with Sabena and KLM at different times; and it tried to take on the LCCs from the UK by setting up Go Fly. In many ways it was thwarted in the ambitions, either through the competitive environment or by government resistance. By the 2000s, BA was struggling in some ways, both due to the economic conditions and the stong competition in the UK/European market. Its European experiments failed and were sold off, whilst it then saw AF and LH pull off some key mergers and acquisitions - the loss of KL to AF (through merger) and LX to LH (through acquisition) can both be said to have been major losses for BA. I think the creation of IAG when BA and IB merged was good, but that grouping would have benefited from either KL or LX being part of the mix too. Europe is going the way the USA has with deregulation - hub operations for legacy carriers, with LCCs mopping up in the point-to-point market. BA has been further restricted by its hub been slot constrained (hence why I think the loss of KL was a blow).

Would BA want domestic US rights now? Not really, espeially as it has its partnership with AA. However, if BA had got those rights in the early 1990s, and given it has its own terminal at JFK, I wouldn't have been surprised to see BA operating JFK-LAX and JFK-SFO if it gotten the chance!
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UAL747
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RE: BBC Documentary On First 747-400 Delivered To BA

Sat Nov 19, 2011 11:19 pm

It's interesting to see the Thai 742 at DFW in the footage in part 5. Very interesting documentary indeed. Love the fact that AA and BA were at it at that time and now are buddy-buddy.

Also, is the Sabre headquarters still in a bunker in TUL? Very interesting that Crandle said he would sell the airline before he sold Sabre.

Also, who else misses that classic British Landor scheme? Nothing seemed more British than that.

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modernArt
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RE: BBC Documentary On First 747-400 Delivered To BA

Sun Nov 20, 2011 12:30 am

All of those beautiful American 727-200s.

I wish part three of this series was available...dealt with airline hubs and a visit to Atlanta.
 
shufflemoomin
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RE: BBC Documentary On First 747-400 Delivered To BA

Sun Nov 20, 2011 1:18 am

Thanks for posting this. I thoroughly enjoyed watching it. I also enjoyed the arrogance of American Airways wanting to attack the "flag carriers of Europe, especially BA" and become a major player. That worked out well, didn't it?  
 
A340600
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RE: BBC Documentary On First 747-400 Delivered To BA

Sun Nov 20, 2011 3:28 am

Great documentary. BNLC is one of the few registrations I remember working on. I worked a flight LAX-LHR on it back in 2008, nearly 20 years after that footage; the 747-400 is such a fantastic aircraft.
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American 767
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RE: BBC Documentary On First 747-400 Delivered To BA

Sun Nov 20, 2011 3:43 am

Quoting ModernArt (Reply 31):
All of those beautiful American 727-200s.

And DC-10s. At that time American still had a large fleet of 727s and DC-10s. The footage is from 1990.

Quoting shufflemoomin (Reply 32):
I thoroughly enjoyed watching it.

So did I. I enjoyed looking at the huge flaps and wing canoe fairings, makes one see what a masterpiece of engineering the Boeing 747 is. Also interesting to hear is how long the wiring in the airplane measures: 130 miles! The detailed technical drawing of the electrical systems is impressive.

Also nice to see was the Concorde.

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MaverickM11
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RE: BBC Documentary On First 747-400 Delivered To BA

Sun Nov 20, 2011 3:50 am

Quoting FlyCaledonian (Reply 29):

Would BA want domestic US rights now? Not really, espeially as it has its partnership with AA. However, if BA had got those rights in the early 1990s, and given it has its own terminal at JFK, I wouldn't have been surprised to see BA operating JFK-LAX and JFK-SFO if it gotten the chance!

Even then I just couldn't see it as a viable option. Could you imagine if they got anything up and running? By the time they got remotely big enough to be relevant they'd be just in time for a shellacking by B6.
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qf002
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RE: BBC Documentary On First 747-400 Delivered To BA

Sun Nov 20, 2011 4:31 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 35):
Even then I just couldn't see it as a viable option. Could you imagine if they got anything up and running? By the time they got remotely big enough to be relevant they'd be just in time for a shellacking by B6.

This is pre-Alliances. It wouldn't have been a big scale operation -- probably just a hub in New York or someone similar on the East Coast flying on to 5-6 major cities as tags to the transatlantic flights. They could have offered Concorde flights across North America, which would have made them a fortune I think...

Anyway, come the late 1990s and Oneworld, BA would have shut their operation down and passed pax over to AA.
 
EDICHC
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RE: BBC Documentary On First 747-400 Delivered To BA

Sun Nov 20, 2011 5:47 am

How can anyone call this great viewing? First of all this was part of the BBC series Airline made during the height of what became known known as 'Dirty Tricks' though wasn't publicly known at the time. Teflon coated Sir Colin Marshall prominent of course. It amounted to a licence fee funded advert for BA for 6 weeks on prime time TV.

Very interesting was the brief interview with Air Europe chairman Harry Goodman given that at the time this documentary was made, two unnamed senior BA pilots wrote to Goodman alerting him to the fact that BA management were already trying to undermine Air Europe by (quote) "discrediting by rumour". Within weeks rumours were rife in the industry that Air Europe could not pay fuel, were on the verge of cancelling all future aircraft orders and were facing financial collapse. None of this was true at the time, in fact the company was about to post a 13 million pound profit. In July 1989 British Telecom cancelled a previously agreed 300k contract to install a new telephone reservation system at Air Europe's head office due to rumours of the company's perilous financial state. The BT executive involved admitted the (false) rumours originated from BA. All in all BA's rumour campaign cost Air Europe 15million, wiping out thier profits for that year. Furthermore BA continued with it's rumourmongering leaving Air Europe (and it's parent company International Leisure Group) finding it harder and harder to secure credit and undermining confidence in the company with it's bankers. Air Europe's problem was that it didn't have the reserve capital to weather this artificial and falsely created storm and within a year had folded. BA had it's second victim.

It is ironic that they portray AA as 'the enemy' given future events, they didn't seem to keen in a tie-up then with AA. In actual fact were BA not trying to press a case for being allowed to acquire a holding in UA at that time?
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mikey72
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RE: BBC Documentary On First 747-400 Delivered To BA

Sun Nov 20, 2011 8:08 am

Quoting EDICHC (Reply 37):
How can anyone call this great viewing?

I thought it was fantastic viewing. The rise of a wonderful airline. The airline industry has always been 'dog eat dog''. Never more so than now. Let the world beware.

Sir Colin Marshall and Lord King were visionaries who turned a loss making nationalized company into literally 'The Worlds Favourite Airline'. I'm afraid you don't do that without being ruthless AND taking risks yourself. The huge order for 744's was a gamble and milestone for BA and transformed its network opportunites from London. Much as EK is doing now with its '''state''' funded' order book. Don't hear you moaning about them EDICHC ??

A magic wand was waved over the Concorde operations turning them into a huge money spinner brimming with charisma which catapulted the aircraft to icon status. (Prompting the whinging from others)

Record breaking multi-million dollar advertising campaigns were embarked upon.

Quoting EDICHC (Reply 37):
It is ironic that they portray AA as 'the enemy' given future events

If I remember correctly AA's Don Carty later said AA would wipe BA off the North Atlantic...so yes it is indeed ironic and they were seen as the enemy.

[Edited 2011-11-20 00:47:55]
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EDICHC
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RE: BBC Documentary On First 747-400 Delivered To BA

Sun Nov 20, 2011 10:36 am

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 38):
Don't hear you moaning about them EDICHC ??

Since when have EK tried to illegally drive out of business (at least) 3 competitors? Rather than having a dig at me (again) try addressing the issues I have raised that are based on facts and are a matter of public record.

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 38):
A magic wand was waved over the Concorde operations turning them into a huge money spinner brimming with charisma which catapulted the aircraft to icon status.

A magic wand? That magic wand was the NYPA permitting operations into JFK, nothing magic about it. Being practically given the hardware for nothing, at the expense of the UK tax payer no doubt helped as well. When has there ever been an airline operation that has virtually zero depreciation of capital assets over a 35 year period?

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 38):
I thought it was fantastic viewing. The rise of a wonderful airline.

At a time when it was conducting in anti-competitive and illegal activities. It appears then we are talking about the fictional Gordon Gekko's definition of wonderful. Sorry Mikey but the Thatcherite "greed is good" era is long gone.

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 38):
The huge order for 744's was a gamble and milestone for BA and transformed its network opportunites from London.

There was no gambling involved for BA in the late 80's, the Thatcher government always looked after 'it's airline'.
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RE: BBC Documentary On First 747-400 Delivered To BA

Sun Nov 20, 2011 11:42 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 35):
Quoting FlyCaledonian (Reply 29):

Would BA want domestic US rights now? Not really, espeially as it has its partnership with AA. However, if BA had got those rights in the early 1990s, and given it has its own terminal at JFK, I wouldn't have been surprised to see BA operating JFK-LAX and JFK-SFO if it gotten the chance!

Even then I just couldn't see it as a viable option. Could you imagine if they got anything up and running? By the time they got remotely big enough to be relevant they'd be just in time for a shellacking by B6.

You're looking at that with the benefit of hindsight. Back in 1990 who would have predicted the rise of B6 at JFK, or U2 and FR in Europe? At that time BA was competing internationally out of JFK with TW and PA, and it probably thought that it could take on UA and AA on the transcons if given the rights. A BA international 3-class aircraft against UA and AA back then? I think BA would have gone in fighting.

Equally, the point about tags was that it didn't want to have aircraft sat on the ground for several hours, and to make tags work it wanted to carry domestic passengers too.

Quoting qf002 (Reply 36):
This is pre-Alliances. It wouldn't have been a big scale operation -- probably just a hub in New York or someone similar on the East Coast flying on to 5-6 major cities as tags to the transatlantic flights. They could have offered Concorde flights across North America, which would have made them a fortune I think...

Exactly, BA weren't looking at creating a major operation within North America.
Let's Go British Caledonian!
 
mikey72
Posts: 1439
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2009 1:31 pm

RE: BBC Documentary On First 747-400 Delivered To BA

Sun Nov 20, 2011 11:44 am

Quoting EDICHC (Reply 39):
Since when have EK tried to illegally drive out of business (at least) 3 competitors? Rather than having a dig at me (again) try addressing the issues I have raised that are based on facts and are a matter of public record.

It's business, it happens, it still happens, it will always happen. Legally or illegally. I don't CARE what BA did I still think they're a great airline and so do many on here EDICHC.

Quoting EDICHC (Reply 39):
A magic wand? That magic wand was the NYPA permitting operations into JFK, nothing magic about it. Being practically given the hardware for nothing, at the expense of the UK tax payer no doubt helped as well. When has there ever been an airline operation that has virtually zero depreciation of capital assets over a 35 year period?

BA weren't that keen in taking them on. What else were the government suppose to do with the aircraft. Only two airlines in the world ended up operating them and only ONE made a success of it through brilliant marketing and management.

Quoting EDICHC (Reply 39):
Sorry Mikey but the Thatcherite "greed is good" era is long gone.

You believe that do you ?

Quoting EDICHC (Reply 39):
There was no gambling involved for BA in the late 80's, the Thatcher government always looked after 'it's airline'.

And BA are unique in this ? Don't think so. LH, AF etc etc
Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
 
vv701
Posts: 5780
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RE: BBC Documentary On First 747-400 Delivered To BA

Sun Nov 20, 2011 5:00 pm

Quoting lhr380 (Reply 25):
Never knew BNLC was the first 400 for the carrier.

It was the second delivery - see below - but the first in service - also see below.

Quoting TCASAlert (Reply 27):
It wasn't. They took LA on 30/06/1989, LC on 21/07/1989 and LB on 31/07/1989.

Yes. 'LA and 'LC were photographed nose to nose at PAE on 30 June 1989 at the official delivery of 'LA to BA. But 'LC had only made its first flight two days before and was not bought, delivered and registered to BA until three weeks later. But his was before 'LB was delivered.

Quoting Speedbird741 (Reply 28):
I am not certain of this, so please do correct if I wrong, but I believe LC entered into revenue service prior to LA or LB

Correct. 'LC arrived at LHR on its delivery flight on 22 July 1989. It entered service six days later on 28 July when it operated LHR-PHL-PIT. This was the first BA Boeing 747 436 revenue flight.

Although the 744s were purchased primarily to operate the ultra long haul routes to the likes of BKK, HKG, NRT and SIN, the aircraft were initially used on shorter routes, partricularly those with add-ons like both LHR-PHL-PIT and LHR-YUL-DTW, to maximise the number of take-offs and landings during the early flight crew familiarisation and training period.

At the date of the inaugural revenue flight by 'LC, 'LA was still dedicated to crew training.
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19046
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: BBC Documentary On First 747-400 Delivered To BA

Sun Nov 20, 2011 5:18 pm

Quoting qf002 (Reply 36):
They could have offered Concorde flights across North America, which would have made them a fortune I think...

How do you figure that? Supersonic flights over U.S. have long been prohibited. You will recall that Braniff operated leased BA and AF Concordes sub-sonically as tag-ons between IAD and DFW for a couple of years. Those flights were never profitable. They saved 10 or 15 minutes compared to the much more convenient and frequent regular flights on that route.

[Edited 2011-11-20 09:19:39]

[Edited 2011-11-20 09:20:26]
 
qf002
Posts: 3092
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RE: BBC Documentary On First 747-400 Delivered To BA

Sun Nov 20, 2011 5:29 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 44):
How do you figure that? Supersonic flights over U.S. have long been prohibited. You will recall that Braniff operated leased BA and AF Concordes sub-sonically as tag-ons between IAD and DFW for a couple of years. Those flights were never profitable. They saved 10 or 15 minutes compared to the much more convenient and frequent regular flights on that route.

I'm not 100% in the know re restrictions etc, but I'm sure that doing proper transcontinental flights (I'm thinking LAX in particular here) with a significant enough time saving would have been possible. And considering that AA/UA are offering premium service on these routes today, it's clear that the market for those flights is a strongly premium one that would have appreciated the speed/luxury of Concorde... But hey, I don't know. It was just an idea...
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19046
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RE: BBC Documentary On First 747-400 Delivered To BA

Sun Nov 20, 2011 5:32 pm

Quoting qf002 (Reply 45):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 44):
How do you figure that? Supersonic flights over U.S. have long been prohibited. You will recall that Braniff operated leased BA and AF Concordes sub-sonically as tag-ons between IAD and DFW for a couple of years. Those flights were never profitable. They saved 10 or 15 minutes compared to the much more convenient and frequent regular flights on that route.

I'm not 100% in the know re restrictions etc, but I'm sure that doing proper transcontinental flights (I'm thinking LAX in particular here) with a significant enough time saving would have been possible. And considering that AA/UA are offering premium service on these routes today, it's clear that the market for those flights is a strongly premium one that would have appreciated the speed/luxury of Concorde... But hey, I don't know. It was just an idea.

Concorde fuel consumption at subsonic speeds was very high. Leaving aside the cost, I doubt they would have even had the range to operate nonstop US coast-to-coast subsonic service on routes like JFK-LAX.
 
mikey72
Posts: 1439
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2009 1:31 pm

RE: BBC Documentary On First 747-400 Delivered To BA

Mon Nov 21, 2011 10:46 am

Quoting EDICHC (Reply 55):
It does not however give you the right to try to silence me when I exercise my right to express a contrary opinion.

Nobody is trying to silence you EDICHC. I respect your opinion, I'm just exercising my right to express 'my' contrary opinion.

Quoting EDICHC (Reply 55):
Another constructive contribution to the debate....not!

  

It was a constructive thread (NOT a debate about corporate criminal activity) until you (predictably) waded in with....


Quoting EDICHC (Reply 37):
How can anyone call this great viewing? First of all this was part of the BBC series Airline made during the height of what became known known as 'Dirty Tricks' though wasn't publicly known at the time. Teflon coated Sir Colin Marshall prominent of course. It amounted to a licence fee funded advert for BA for 6 weeks on prime time TV.

It's so transparent what you 'attempt' to do with any thread about BA. You carry on. It's actually becoming quite entertaining now.
Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
 
shankly
Posts: 1199
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2000 10:42 pm

RE: BBC Documentary On First 747-400 Delivered To BA

Mon Nov 21, 2011 12:51 pm

Quoting EDICHC (Reply 37):
Air Europe's problem was that it didn't have the reserve capital to weather this artificial and falsely created storm and within a year had folded


Air Europe's problem was that it wanted to be a man for all seasons and in doing so added itself to the list of the worlds badly managed ex-airlines. Air Europe created its own storms....you remember the Dan-Air scandal and BCal fiasco and badly managed fleet planning?

In just over 10 years it went from a successful little IT charter company to a basket case, charter, long, medium and short haul schedule operator.
L1011 - P F M
 
EDICHC
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RE: BBC Documentary On First 747-400 Delivered To BA

Mon Nov 21, 2011 10:25 pm

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 46):
Nobody is trying to silence you EDICHC.

You were not but someone else was, it was fairly obvious in the content of their post.

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 46):
It was a constructive thread (NOT a debate about corporate criminal activity) until you (predictably) waded in with....


Quoting EDICHC (Reply 37):
How can anyone call this great viewing? First of all this was part of the BBC series Airline made during the height of what became known known as 'Dirty Tricks' though wasn't publicly known at the time. Teflon coated Sir Colin Marshall prominent of course. It amounted to a licence fee funded advert for BA for 6 weeks on prime time TV.

And I stand by my remarks. This series (made with MY licence fee cash as I was UK resident at the time) was nothing but a BA gushfest. As I have repeatedly pointed out this 'documentary' was made when BA were....

Illegally accessing VS reservations data.
Calling VS customers, misrepresenting as VS staff and advising they were victims of overbooking and offering rebooking on BA
Employing private investigators to rake through rubbish bins of VS senior management, to try to obtain sensitive documents.
Spreading false rumours of impending insolvency of competitors to suppliers, aircraft manufacturers and merchant banks.
Carried out a campaign of harassment, threatening and criminal behaviour towards one of it's own shareholders.
Employed in a senior management position, a person who was a member of an illegal paramilitary organisation in Northern Ireland.
There is more....

Of course none of the above got the slightest mention in the 'documentary'. That is why it is relevant to the thread as there have been repeated posts saying how great it is, while all the time it ignores the seedier and unpalatable side of BA. I have said to many before, I will continue to challenge any 'BA is wonderful' gushfest by consistently dealing in FACTS. If you choose to ignore the facts that's your choice, but don't blame others for questioning why. In a slightly tongue in cheek manner I'll suggest why you don't like my posts and facing the truth, or rather I'll let ol' Jack suggest for me..
http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6041/6379200617_7c18da6800_b.jpg

 
Quoting mikey72 (Reply 41):
Legally or illegally. I don't CARE what BA did I still think they're a great airline and so do many on here EDICHC.

Legally or illegally you don't care, so you condone corporate crime?

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 41):
Quoting EDICHC (Reply 39):
Sorry Mikey but the Thatcherite "greed is good" era is long gone.

You believe that do you ?

Yes I do. Businesses that disregard ethics are dinosaurs now...that is part of what has prompted the Occupy Wall Street and similar protests.
A300/319/320/346 ATR72 B722/732/3/4/5/6/8/742/4/752/762/3/772/3 BAC111 BAe146 C172 DHC1/6/8 HS121 MD80 PA28
 
lhr380
Posts: 2453
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RE: BBC Documentary On First 747-400 Delivered To BA

Mon Nov 21, 2011 10:37 pm

Quoting EDICHC (Reply 37):
How can anyone call this great viewing?

Because it was, so far you are the only one to think it is not. It was nice to see the delivery, what goes on during it, and what was going on in the industry at the time and how much it has changed.

Quoting EDICHC (Reply 37):
It is ironic that they portray AA as 'the enemy' given future events, they didn't seem to keen in a tie-up then with AA. In actual fact were BA not trying to press a case for being allowed to acquire a holding in UA at that time?

And? Cant things change, or do things have to stay the same no matter what has happened.
How much has the industry changed since that was made? Now look at how close BA and AA are.
(The views on this site are my own and no one elses)