klwright69
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CO's EWR-ATH

Thu Nov 17, 2011 11:18 pm

Has it been previously announced that CO/UA is not returning to EWR-ATH market in 2012? I notice it is not in the timetable. Given the current situation it's not surprising. But in the summer there are always plenty of tourists even in bad times.
 
sulley
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RE: CO's EWR-ATH

Thu Nov 17, 2011 11:41 pm

Yes, the route is temporarily suspended for now. However they've done this a few times, so it will probably come back. Hopefully Greece recovers soon.
In thrust we trust!
 
skyduster
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RE: CO's EWR-ATH

Wed Nov 23, 2011 5:25 am

Agreed with Sulley, I wouldn't be surprised if the route did return for 2012. If the route depends more on Americans traveling to ATH, rather than Greek nationals to the US, then the route shouldn't be affected by the financial crisis. Tourism arrivals to Greece were on a major upswing during the 2011 season, with cruises (popular with Americans) being a major contributor to that growth. So, I can see CO returning to ATH, but we'll have to wait and see to know for sure.

However, if there's other factors in 2012 (US economy affecting American travelers or competition with other carriers, etc), then that would be a different story.

[Edited 2011-11-22 21:29:38]
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AA737-823
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RE: CO's EWR-ATH

Wed Nov 23, 2011 5:34 am

Quoting skyduster (Reply 2):
If the route depends more on Americans traveling to ATH, rather than Greek nationals to the US, then the route shouldn't be affected by the financial crisis.

As a general rule, I avoid leisure travel to countries that are experiencing violent riots, as Greece was this year. Things there seem to have calmed down, but the next year is about as predictable for Greece and other Euro countries as.... an earthquake.
 
skyduster
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RE: CO's EWR-ATH

Wed Nov 23, 2011 5:57 am

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 3):
As a general rule, I avoid leisure travel to countries that are experiencing violent riots


You already live in one.

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 3):
...as Greece was this year. Things there seem to have calmed down


No, things were calmer this year than last. And the media's images of a violent demonstration once every 6 months in a small area (a few city blocks) of central Athens are not reflective of every single day, in an entire country the size of Pennsylvania with 30+ airports. It would be like European tourists avoiding Florida because of the Occupy violence in Oakland.

But you've perfectly demonstrated how selective media images trump rational thought, regarding a country/region/place that you're not familiar with,

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 3):
....Things there seem to have calmed down, but the next year is about as predictable for Greece and other Euro countries as.... an earthquake.


But your personal travel preferences and perceptions are irrelevant because they're evidently not shared by a lot of people, and will therefore not affect Continental's decision-making. The country experienced a tourism upswing this year, and there's a predicted surge next year as well. For Delta, Air Canada, Air Transat, Royal Caribbean, etc (who plan to stay in GR in 2012), "predictability" isn't an issue.

[Edited 2011-11-22 22:36:11]
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AA737-823
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RE: CO's EWR-ATH

Wed Nov 23, 2011 7:01 am

Wow, sir, your arguments do more to harm your views than support it. Fortunately, it's relevant to the original thread, so here:

Quoting skyduster (Reply 4):
You already live in one.

Valid point, but what are you suggesting? That I MOVE to Greece?

Quoting skyduster (Reply 4):
in an entire country the size of Pennsylvania with 30+ airports.

So, I should fly from New York to..... Thessaloniki?

Quoting skyduster (Reply 4):
Florida because of the Occupy violence in Oakland.

You just said that Greece is the size of Pennsylvania, and then said it's like avoiding Florida for protests in California? Which is more like saying I'll avoid Portugal because of protests in Moscow.... No sense.

Quoting skyduster (Reply 4):
But your personal travel preferences and perceptions are irrelevant because they're evidently not shared by a lot of people, and will therefore not affect Continental's decision-making.

Apparently, MY PERCEPTIONS ARE SPOT ON, because Continental has chosen to TERMINATE SERVICE.
That would be my favorite of your points.


Bottom line, it's no longer economically viable for CO to serve Athens, shame as it is, so they're not going to. Airlines fly to lots of risky places, if they can make a buck (everyone served Cairo right up until the bitter end of the regime, to name one...). But CO can't make money at ATH, so.... Sayonara. Or whatever they say in Greece.
 
JU068
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RE: CO's EWR-ATH

Wed Nov 23, 2011 7:07 am

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 5):
Apparently, MY PERCEPTIONS ARE SPOT ON, because Continental has chosen to TERMINATE SERVICE.
That would be my favorite of your points.

Well if the market was that bad Delta would not be flying there. Plus the fact that so many European and Middle Eastern airlines have added capacity to Greece proves you wrong.
Don't forget that Athens handles about 16 million passengers per year, that's quite a lot.
 
odafz
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RE: CO's EWR-ATH

Wed Nov 23, 2011 9:21 am

@skyduster

On behalf of Greek a.netters thank you for explaining the situation and shedding a true light on the Greek situation.

Having said the above, CO/UA has not the best record in maintaining the EWR link to Athens.For the last ten years, the flight has been operating seasonally. Even DL is stopping ATL-ATH as their strategy to decrease capacity ( other cuts include PVG, TLV and other cities)

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 3):
As a general rule, I avoid leisure travel to countries that are experiencing violent riots, as Greece was this year.

Greece is not Athens ..... most tourists visit the islands , there were no riots in Rhodes, heraklion Santorini and Mykonos... you shouldn't watch too much Fox ... It is detrimental to the intelligence of people. As a side note, I have avoided visiting New York to celebrate my anniversary because of the OWS protests and the force that has been used by the police. I have been told also that you assassinate Gay guys and a local association called the 3K are torching black people and a famous university has allowed some perverts to molest children.......

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 5):
Valid point, but what are you suggesting? That I MOVE to Greece?

Definitely, at least our airports are nice, the local TSA is not as invasive as yours, nice city and socialized health care

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 5):
So, I should fly from New York to..... Thessaloniki?

Why not and experience the Greek hospitality aboard Aegean or Olympic... with no hassle

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 5):
You just said that Greece is the size of Pennsylvania, and then said it's like avoiding Florida for protests in California? Which is more like saying I'll avoid Portugal because of protests in Moscow.... No sense.

The last I check Florida and California are in the USA, your answer would have had a sense if Moscow was part of Portugal which is not. your point is as valid as Hermann Cain's position on Libya.

[quote=AA737-823,reply=5]Apparently, MY PERCEPTIONS ARE SPOT ON, because Continental has chosen to TERMINATE SERVICE.
for which we do not have any clue, it is certainly not for the risk reasons you are invoking . I will see a combination of economic reasons and the strategy of US airlines to decrease capacity as DL is doing it
 
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jfklganyc
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RE: CO's EWR-ATH

Wed Nov 23, 2011 4:44 pm

The greek population is huge in NYC. Centered around astoria queens and spreading out to bayside whitestone douglaston and little neck in queens. Then eastward to long island and north into westchester.

Long story short if you get a map jfk is the right airport for this flight, newark is the wrong airport. These vfr travellers are the backbone of deltas flight since the pan am days. It is worth noting that delta likes to make euro routes out of jfk seasonal...they don't do this with athens
 
tommy767
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RE: CO's EWR-ATH

Wed Nov 23, 2011 4:53 pm

CO is rather conservative with some of these secondary long haul destinations from EWR (out of the 757 range.) If there is an inkling of doubt, a route has a chance of being cancelled. Note how they dropped Cairo as soon as turmoil started last year (announced, never flown.) There are plenty of safe cities that UA/CO will never drop like MXP, FCO, TLV etc.

I think UA/CO really needs to start looking at flying to DME, PRG, WAW from EWR.

Quoting ODAFZ (Reply 7):
Having said the above, CO/UA has not the best record in maintaining the EWR link to Athens.For the last ten years, the flight has been operating seasonally. Even DL is stopping ATL-ATH as their strategy to decrease capacity ( other cuts include PVG, TLV and other cities)

Actually I only recall CO starting to fly EWR-ATH within the last few years -- maybe since 2007. Delta has been operating JFK-ATH for many, many years however. I think the route was inherited through the Pan Am demise.
"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
 
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STT757
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RE: CO's EWR-ATH

Wed Nov 23, 2011 5:09 pm

Quoting TOMMY767 (Reply 9):
Note how they dropped Cairo as soon as turmoil started last year (announced, never flown.)

That's an understandable case, both CO and DL dropped CAI. DL also dropped Amman in light of the Arab spring.

Quoting TOMMY767 (Reply 9):
There are plenty of safe cities that UA/CO will never drop like MXP, FCO, TLV etc.

CO has stuck with the Tel Aviv route even during the worst days of the intifada which had DL running for the exists. DL added and then quickly dropped TLV in response to the violence, they brought the route back about 8 years later.
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panamair
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RE: CO's EWR-ATH

Wed Nov 23, 2011 5:23 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 10):

CO has stuck with the Tel Aviv route even during the worst days of the intifada which had DL running for the exists. DL added and then quickly dropped TLV in response to the violence, they brought the route back about 8 years later.

Not quite correct. DL dropped JFK-TLV after 9/11. They went back into TLV in 2006 from ATL, and then from JFK in 2008.
 
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jfklganyc
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RE: CO's EWR-ATH

Wed Nov 23, 2011 5:24 pm

"CO has stuck with the Tel Aviv route even during the worst days of the intifada which had DL running for the exists. DL added and then quickly dropped TLV in response to the violence, they brought the route back about 8 years later."


Yeah, TLV really works from NY/NJ.

Often, back in the 90s and 2000s DL had the mind set of ATL ATL ATL. Seems to have changed a bit.

I remember when they were flying ATL TLV and not JFK . . . what an opportunity missed AND it allowed CO to jump into the market as the only US carrier from NYC.

Meanwhile, TWA flew that thing to the bitter end, so did Tower, and El Al has several flights a day from both EWR and JFK.
 
staralliance85
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RE: CO's EWR-ATH

Wed Nov 23, 2011 5:32 pm

CO started EWR-ATH in 2007 when the airline industry started to make money again. ATH is now a dead market, due to their failing economy. Within a year you are going to see more airlines drop out of ATH, like TG has just done. It makes alot more sense for UA/CO to start a EWR-IST route than keep ATH because their partner TK has a huge hub there. IST has great connections to Greece and the Middle East so there is no need for UA/CO to start service to places like CAI or AMM. EWR-TLV is a very popular and they even have two daily non stops so that route is here to stay. FCO, MXP and MAD are very safe and will be untouched. I feel that they might downgrade BCN to seasonal service due to Spain's terrible economy and BCN is more of a summer destination.
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tommy767
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RE: CO's EWR-ATH

Wed Nov 23, 2011 5:54 pm

Quoting staralliance85 (Reply 13):
I feel that they might downgrade BCN to seasonal service due to Spain's terrible economy and BCN is more of a summer destination.

I mean they fly it year round with a 757. I don't see it really dropping to anything below that. UA/CO has been established on that route for quite a while now.

Quoting staralliance85 (Reply 13):
It makes alot more sense for UA/CO to start a EWR-IST route than keep ATH because their partner TK has a huge hub there.

they can, and they should. UA/CO needs to upgrade EWR to having some routes to Africa as well.
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codc10
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RE: CO's EWR-ATH

Wed Nov 23, 2011 6:03 pm

Quoting TOMMY767 (Reply 9):
Note how they dropped Cairo as soon as turmoil started last year (announced, never flown.)

The problem with Cairo is that it was a new route for the 2010 summer, so early bookings were necessarily going to be slow due to a lack of awareness of the route, not to mention the fact that it was to operate with a 777... a lot of seats to fill. Most summer leisure passengers book their travel in the spring, and no doubt reconsidered their trips to the pyramids once they turned on their televisions around March.

The coup also negatively impacted business traffic between New York and Cairo, so the decision was, in retrospect, the right one.

Quoting panamair (Reply 11):
They went back into TLV in 2006 from ATL

Which was later dropped.

Quoting staralliance85 (Reply 13):
CO started EWR-ATH in 2007 when the airline industry started to make money again. ATH is now a dead market, due to their failing economy. Within a year you are going to see more airlines drop out of ATH, like TG has just done. It makes alot more sense for UA/CO to start a EWR-IST route than keep ATH because their partner TK has a huge hub there.

Agreed 100% about EWR-IST.
 
UALWN
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RE: CO's EWR-ATH

Wed Nov 23, 2011 6:22 pm

Quoting staralliance85 (Reply 13):
I feel that they might downgrade BCN to seasonal service due to Spain's terrible economy and BCN is more of a summer destination.

The state of Spain's economy (and calling it terrible might be a little bit of an exaggeration) is pretty inconsequential to the Americans going on a cruise, who seem to constitute the majority of the passengers travelling between EWR and BCN.
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STT757
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RE: CO's EWR-ATH

Wed Nov 23, 2011 6:24 pm

Quoting UALWN (Reply 16):
is pretty inconsequential to the Americans going on a cruise, who seem to constitute the majority of the passengers travelling between EWR and BCN.

BCN is one of PMCO's most successful launches, and it's peak season is actually October. They regularly upgauge to 764s to handle the cruise traffic.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
UALWN
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RE: CO's EWR-ATH

Wed Nov 23, 2011 6:30 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 17):
BCN is one of PMCO's most successful launches, and it's peak season is actually October. They regularly upgauge to 764s to handle the cruise traffic.

True. Sometimes CO runs two daily 752s. In the summer AA has two daily 763s from JFK, DL a daily 333 from JFK, plus another from ATL, and US a 332 from PHL.
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N1120A
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RE: CO's EWR-ATH

Wed Nov 23, 2011 6:52 pm

UA/CO is in the process of retrofitting CO aircraft with Economy Plus, flat bed seats and From the Flight Deck (Channel 9). The first set of long haul aircraft undergoing this retrofit are the 764s, which are also the aircraft that run this route. It is entirely possible that they have pulled this route in anticipation of being an aircraft short.
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klwright69
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RE: CO's EWR-ATH

Thu Nov 24, 2011 2:40 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 10):
Quoting TOMMY767 (Reply 9):
Note how they dropped Cairo as soon as turmoil started last year (announced, never flown.)

That's an understandable case, both CO and DL dropped CAI. DL also dropped Amman in light of the Arab spring.

DL dropped AMM due to low-yields, and being a long and thin seasonal route. RJ has AMM covered from multiple US gateways with connections in AMM. It had nothing to do with the Arab spring. Jordan experienced no uprisings. I have lived in the middle east the last 3 years. It's not all one place.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 16):
Quoting staralliance85 (Reply 13):
I feel that they might downgrade BCN to seasonal service due to Spain's terrible economy and BCN is more of a summer destination.

The state of Spain's economy (and calling it terrible might be a little bit of an exaggeration) is pretty inconsequential to the Americans going on a cruise, who seem to constitute the majority of the passengers travelling between EWR and BCN.

BCN is a large enough market for CO/UA to go year round with at least a 757. It has even been upgraded, so that's a real good sign it's a keeper (unlike BRS and CGN).

It could just be CO/UA just has larger fish to fry, and going seasonal to ATH is not worth the trouble, when the aircraft can go somewhere else and be there year round.
 
EWRCabincrew
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RE: CO's EWR-ATH

Thu Nov 24, 2011 3:44 pm

Quoting panamair (Reply 11):
Not quite correct. DL dropped JFK-TLV after 9/11

Had nothing to do with 9/11 as it was before 9/11. A bomb went off in a night club across the street from the DL crew hotel, killing, IIRC, about 20 or so teenagers/young adults.

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/MFAArchive...t%20the%20Dolphin%20disco%20-%201-

http://wwww.airliners.net/aviation-f...general_aviation/read.main/487741/

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/archive/t-579442.html
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STT757
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RE: CO's EWR-ATH

Thu Nov 24, 2011 3:49 pm

A lot of DL supporters always cite 9/11 for a lot of DL's problems around 2000/2001 (JFK Terminal project aborted launch, TLV , NRT being dropped etc..) However as pointed out many of these happened prior to 9/11, the JFK terminal project for example was supposed to be under construction (according to their time lines) four months prior to 9/11. By 9/11/01 DL had not even submitted a plan to the Port Authority board to review. And TLV was dropped prior to 9/11, as pointed out it was due to the intifada.
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panamair
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RE: CO's EWR-ATH

Thu Nov 24, 2011 5:07 pm

Quoting EWRCabincrew (Reply 21):
Had nothing to do with 9/11 as it was before 9/11. A bomb went off in a night club across the street from the DL crew hotel, killing, IIRC, about 20 or so teenagers/young adults.

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/MFAArchive...t%20the%20Dolphin%20disco%20-%201-

http://wwww.airliners.net/aviation-f...general_aviation/read.main/487741/

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/archi....html

Sorry, but did you read the links you posted? The nightclub bombing caused DL96/97 to be cancelled for a few days only. Service then resumed for the rest of the summer until 9/11.

From another a.net post in December 2001 announcing the non-resumption of JFK-TLV originally scheduled for March 2002:

Delta Won't Renew Israel Flights (by El Al 001 Dec 7 2001 in Civil Aviation)

"....Following the terror attacks in the US, Delta suspended its flights to Tel Aviv, Munich, Dublin, Zurich, Cairo, Aruba, Dubai, Shannon (Ireland), Tokyo and Brussels. Flights to Stockholm were permanently halted...."

Basically, Delta cancelled a whole bunch of transatlantic flights after 9/11, including JFK-TLV; many were supposed to resume in March 2002, but were eventually cancelled.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 22):
A lot of DL supporters always cite 9/11 for a lot of DL's problems around 2000/2001 (JFK Terminal project aborted launch, TLV , NRT being dropped etc..)
Quoting STT757 (Reply 22):
And TLV was dropped prior to 9/11, as pointed out it was due to the intifada.

As above, read the links. JFK-TLV was dropped in 2001 AFTER 9/11. There were cancellations for a few days after the bombings, but then service resumed.