Ruscoe
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Are Engines Pacing 787 Deliveries?

Fri Nov 18, 2011 12:55 am

We all know ad nauseum about the delays in the 787 program.

Despite being years late the Gen X and RR are still not delivering engines with the promised performance.

It raises two questions in my mind

1. How much of the current low delivery rate is due to engines, not just the travel mwork?
2. If the 787 had been on time, would the engines have been ready anyway?

I would be interested if anyone has any thoughts or knowlefge on this.

Thanks

Ruscoe
 
BoeingVista
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RE: Are Engines Pacing 787 Deliveries?

Fri Nov 18, 2011 1:12 am

Quoting Ruscoe (Thread starter):
We all know ad nauseum about the delays in the 787 program.

Despite being years late the Gen X and RR are still not delivering engines with the promised performance.

It raises two questions in my mind

1. How much of the current low delivery rate is due to engines, not just the travel mwork?
2. If the 787 had been on time, would the engines have been ready anyway?

I would be interested if anyone has any thoughts or knowlefge on this.

Thanks

Ruscoe

RR are delivering Package A engines, according to flightglobal the first package B is due for delivery to ANA on aircraft 31 in either November or December.

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...-in-testing-r-r-and-boeing-362584/

Engines are available for the 787, maybe not up to spec but available. It would be up to the customer to decide if they wished to decline delivery on this basis but as Boeing cannot currently deliver the frames its kind of a moot point.

The real mystery is why the GeNX 787 has still not been certified.
BV
 
JoeCanuck
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RE: Are Engines Pacing 787 Deliveries?

Fri Nov 18, 2011 1:21 am

The engine makers have been a huge contributor to 787 delays and customer dissatisfaction, and will continue to be for some time to come.

Both RR and GE are promising amazing things for future engines yet they are still having trouble making spec they promised they would achieve 4 years ago with the current models.
What the...?
 
tdscanuck
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RE: Are Engines Pacing 787 Deliveries?

Fri Nov 18, 2011 1:36 am

Quoting Ruscoe (Thread starter):
1. How much of the current low delivery rate is due to engines, not just the travel mwork?

Given that there are undelivered 787's sitting around Everett with engines hanging off them, I'm going to go with "none".

Quoting Ruscoe (Thread starter):
2. If the 787 had been on time, would the engines have been ready anyway?

Define "ready". The Trent 1000 certified on time so they were "ready" in the sense they could have been delivered. They would have been less up to spec than they are now though.

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 1):
The real mystery is why the GeNX 787 has still not been certified.

According to a recent Boeing update on flightglobal, they haven't finished ETOPS/F&R. F&R has to be complete for certification (ETOPS doesn't).

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 2):
The engine makers have been a huge contributor to 787 delays

How so? The engines were ready *way* before the airplanes. Boeing did say some public stuff about a delay due to an engine redesign but, given the apparent production rate, I can't see how that actually delayed anything.

Tom.
 
mffoda
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RE: Are Engines Pacing 787 Deliveries?

Fri Nov 18, 2011 1:37 am

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 1):
The real mystery is why the GeNX 787 has still not been certified.

Hell... where have you been?

"GE has received type certification from the U.S Federal Aviation Administration on its Performance Improvement Package (PIP) I for the GEnx-1B engine that will power the Boeing 787 Dreamliner. The Part 33 certification was issued on August 12. "

And,

"GE anticipates the PIP II to certify next year with entry into service by early 2013. "

http://www.geaviation.com/aboutgeae/...resscenter/genx/genx_20110823.html
harder than woodpecker lips...
 
BoeingVista
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RE: Are Engines Pacing 787 Deliveries?

Fri Nov 18, 2011 2:09 am

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 2):
Both RR and GE are promising amazing things for future engines yet they are still having trouble making spec they promised they would achieve 4 years ago with the current models.

The whole 787 programme made spec and time promises that could not be delivered, it was a great marketing exercise that engineers have been struggling to fulfill.

Quoting mffoda (Reply 4):
Hell... where have you been?

Maybe read before responding....

GeNX certified, Yes

GeNX powered 787 certified, No

Why?
BV
 
tdscanuck
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RE: Are Engines Pacing 787 Deliveries?

Fri Nov 18, 2011 3:01 am

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 5):
GeNX powered 787 certified, No
Why?
Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 5):
Maybe read before responding....
Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 3):
According to a recent Boeing update on flightglobal, they haven't finished ETOPS/F&R. F&R has to be complete for certification (ETOPS doesn't).

Tom.
 
BoeingVista
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RE: Are Engines Pacing 787 Deliveries?

Fri Nov 18, 2011 4:24 am

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 6):

Funny Tom,

I did read your response others didn't

The question of what the hold up on F&R remains unanswered though, they finished the RR certification flying and gained FAA 787 certification in September so whats the hold up with the GeNX?
BV
 
tdscanuck
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RE: Are Engines Pacing 787 Deliveries?

Fri Nov 18, 2011 4:30 am

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 7):
Funny Tom,

Sorry, the setup was too good to resist.

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 7):
The question of what the hold up on F&R remains unanswered though

I'm not sure it's held up...they've been flying the wings off ZA006:
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/BOE6

They seem really busy, they're just not done. F&R is pure hours so there isn't really a way to speed it up.

Tom.
 
JoeCanuck
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RE: Are Engines Pacing 787 Deliveries?

Fri Nov 18, 2011 6:05 am

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 3):

How so? The engines were ready *way* before the airplanes. Boeing did say some public stuff about a delay due to an engine redesign but, given the apparent production rate, I can't see how that actually delayed anything.

The GENx 787 still isn't certified, (which we can assume is an engine specific delay since the RR 787 is certified), and RR still isn't up to spec. They wouldn't even have been fitted onto wings at promised EIS and RR certification came 3 years after original EIS. PIP 2 still isn't on any aircraft in service. PIP2 for the GE will make it 5 years after original EIS before offering promised specs.

RR had a specific delay last year stemming from their test failure and their inability to supply engines.

Boeing promised engine spec based on what the engine makers said they could do and the makers couldn't pull it off...at least not when they said they could do it.

The fact is they really weren't ready way before the airplanes....marginally before the airplanes at best...and still really aren't ready today...at least not ready to provide promised spec performance.

They won't offer on spec performance until after 4 or 5 years after they said.

While they were not the only reason for EIS and certification delays, they have contributed.

As far as I can tell, there are no clean hands in regards to the massive 787 delays...Boeing or suppliers.
What the...?
 
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ADent
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RE: Are Engines Pacing 787 Deliveries?

Fri Nov 18, 2011 8:00 am

The GeNX engine was originally certified on March 31, 2008.

They would have been ready to deliver flight worthy engines years ago, just no need. Now they wouldn't have been close to meeting spec performance, but it turns out the airframes they were to be hung on don't meet spec performance either.
 
Nicoeddf
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RE: Are Engines Pacing 787 Deliveries?

Fri Nov 18, 2011 8:27 am

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 9):
The fact is they really weren't ready way before the airplanes....marginally before the airplanes at best...and still really aren't ready today...at least not ready to provide promised spec performance.

So in that sense, the 787 itself is not really ready...at least not ready to provide promised spec performance?
 
ferpe
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RE: Are Engines Pacing 787 Deliveries?

Fri Nov 18, 2011 10:26 am

Quoting nicoeddf (Reply 11):
So in that sense, the 787 itself is not really ready...at least not ready to provide promised spec performance?

In all fairness, this is no difference to other new A/C. Mention one that met weight spec at first EIS? Some might have met engine spec but not many...
Non French in France
 
JoeCanuck
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RE: Are Engines Pacing 787 Deliveries?

Fri Nov 18, 2011 11:18 am

Quoting ADent (Reply 10):
They would have been ready to deliver flight worthy engines years ago, just no need. Now they wouldn't have been close to meeting spec performance, but it turns out the airframes they were to be hung on don't meet spec performance either.

The engines were certified as safe for flight...not certified as a component of the 787. The Genx first flew on a 787 about a year and half ago and still isn't certified for the application...and has been pointed out, won't perform to spec until 2013.

Quoting nicoeddf (Reply 11):
So in that sense, the 787 itself is not really ready...at least not ready to provide promised spec performance?

Yes...since the 787's that have been delivered indeed don't meet promised spec. The airlines have chosen to take these aircraft and do the best they can with them, but they can't perform all the tasks for which they were originally ordered.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge fan of the 787...not so much of the history of the program. It annoys me to no end when vendors of any ilk make fantastic promises, (and suck some of us into believing them), and they're still struggling to fulfill them half a decade later than they said they could.

Still, it's all been hashed out before and no amount of griping is going to change a thing.

Quoting ferpe (Reply 12):

In all fairness, this is no difference to other new A/C. Mention one that met weight spec at first EIS? Some might have met engine spec but not many...

Justifying screw ups by comparison with other screw ups is something of a copout. I really hope somebody can make some aircraft on time and on spec just to show everyone else how it's done. The industry is in obvious need of somebody blazing, what should be, a very obvious trail...unfortunately.
What the...?
 
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lightsaber
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RE: Are Engines Pacing 787 Deliveries?

Fri Nov 18, 2011 5:49 pm

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 1):
The real mystery is why the GeNX 787 has still not been certified.

I'm hearing that there are nacelle/engine issues. Note: This is just my rumor mill. From a buddy at Boeing flight test...
So the engine is ok for delivery (if off spec), but the propulsion system isn't.   

And the 787 engines are being delivered as propulsion systems (excluding Boeing doing the pylon, IIRC)...

Lightsaber
"They did not know it was impossible, so they did it!" - Mark Twain
 
danwoodman00
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RE: Are Engines Pacing 787 Deliveries?

Fri Nov 18, 2011 5:51 pm

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 13):
Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge fan of the 787...not so much of the history of the program. It annoys me to no end when vendors of any ilk make fantastic promises, (and suck some of us into believing them), and they're still struggling to fulfill them half a decade later than they said they could.

I went looking in the archives, and didn't find anything, so this might be a new thread. But...

Does Embraer have a better/worse record that Airbus or Boeing as regards on-time / on-spec delivery?

I know that EMB compete below the large NB and WB space, but they have grown up more than a little. Given that A and B are the only "real comps" for each other, and both have had a lot of bad publicity in the last decade, I'm curious if the up-and-comers like E are using "on time, on target" to differentiate themselves.

It would make an interesting competitive strategy for taking on the brutally-competitive 125+ seat NB range.

Thoughts?
 
ikramerica
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RE: Are Engines Pacing 787 Deliveries?

Fri Nov 18, 2011 5:54 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 14):
I'm hearing that there are nacelle/engine issues. Note: This is just my rumor mill. From a buddy at Boeing flight test...
So the engine is ok for delivery (if off spec), but the propulsion system isn't.   

And the 787 engines are being delivered as propulsion systems (excluding Boeing doing the pylon, IIRC)...

Lightsaber

This makes sense, because despite Boeing catching up on rework, some of those planes are scheduled to sit for months before delivery. This didn't make much sense. If there are issues with propulsion systems and performance both, it may be that Boeing won't release some aircraft until it is sorted, or customers simply won't accept them without improvements.

Boeing is taking the brunt of the criticism, but if you look at the 748F issue with Al Baker, it was GE that was the culprit. Boeing just isn't about blaming others. They are a business that needs those partners, no matter how inept they seem to be.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
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ER757
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RE: Are Engines Pacing 787 Deliveries?

Fri Nov 18, 2011 6:06 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 14):
I'm hearing that there are nacelle/engine issues. Note: This is just my rumor mill.

I would think the 747-8 nacelle/engine arrangement is similar enough to the GE 787 engine that if it wasn't an issue for 747 it shouldn't be for the 787. But apparently not??
 
steffenbn
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RE: Are Engines Pacing 787 Deliveries?

Fri Nov 18, 2011 7:52 pm

Quoting ferpe (Reply 12):
In all fairness, this is no difference to other new A/C. Mention one that met weight spec at first EIS? Some might have met engine spec but not many...

777? Just to name one 

-Steffen
A330, A319, 737,738,752,763,763ER,764ER,777-200LR
 
jsquared
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RE: Are Engines Pacing 787 Deliveries?

Fri Nov 18, 2011 8:05 pm

Quoting steffenbn (Reply 18):
777? Just to name one

Didn't the 77W outperform the design spec?
 
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Stitch
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RE: Are Engines Pacing 787 Deliveries?

Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:02 pm

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 16):
This makes sense, because despite Boeing catching up on rework, some of those planes are scheduled to sit for months before delivery.

And because Boeing spent resources getting those GEnx-powered birds ready for delivery, that was resources they could not spend on getting additional NH birds ready.

So Boeing doesn't have enough resources available to get any more than two NH birds delivered by year's end, but also cannot deliver the GEnx birds they made ready because the propulsion system is not certified and looks like it will not be until early next year.

The net result is only four 787 deliveries, all to NH and all with Trent 1000 power.
 
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RE: Are Engines Pacing 787 Deliveries?

Fri Nov 18, 2011 11:35 pm

Quoting ER757 (Reply 17):
I would think the 747-8 nacelle/engine arrangement is similar enough to the GE 787 engine that if it wasn't an issue for 747 it shouldn't be for the 787.

It is an issue with the 748.    There is certified and then there is performing as intended... and nacelles flying with rolls of high speed tape and RTV trying to improve the flow path...

I cannot say more...   So just consider this idle rumor mill junk...

Disclaimer: I do not work for Boeing. I just have friends in the industry.   

Quoting steffenbn (Reply 18):
777? Just to name one

The initial 777 performed well. But oh was there 'hidden weight' in the joints... Some excess weight has been removed, some still needs refining (and won't be refined if the 777X has a rewing).

Lightsaber
"They did not know it was impossible, so they did it!" - Mark Twain
 
JoeCanuck
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RE: Are Engines Pacing 787 Deliveries?

Sat Nov 19, 2011 1:34 am

Quoting danwoodman00 (Reply 15):
It would make an interesting competitive strategy for taking on the brutally-competitive 125+ seat NB range.

I don't recall hearing about significant delays in the E-Jet program, not that I'm in any loops. Until the 380 and the 787, I don't think delays were significant for either Airbus or Boeing. It is relatively recently that the wheels came somewhat off of the cart.

Given the longer lead times that both are offering for their current programs, there should be less in the way of delays from future programs. The 350, for example has a more conservative timeline than the 787 and should not suffer nearly the delays. It's also an advantage having someone else take a hit so lessons can be learned at someone elses expense.

The CSeries and the 350 are the next major projects scheduled to fly. We'll know how well those projects were planned in the near future.
What the...?
 
BoeingVista
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RE: Are Engines Pacing 787 Deliveries?

Sat Nov 19, 2011 2:12 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 14):
I'm hearing that there are nacelle/engine issues. Note: This is just my rumor mill. From a buddy at Boeing flight test...
So the engine is ok for delivery (if off spec), but the propulsion system isn't.
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 21):

It is an issue with the 748. There is certified and then there is performing as intended... and nacelles flying with rolls of high speed tape and RTV trying to improve the flow path...

I cannot say more... So just consider this idle rumor mill junk...

Interesting rumour mill junk though...

So.. flow path disruption... Reduced engine stall margin? PIP 1 had a major stall during testing if I recall and ended up being certified at a lower thrust level, so the maybe this PIP was a failed attempt to solve a fundamental engine / nacelle flow issue    the amount of time that GE is projecting for the introduction of PIP's seems unusually long considering that they are meant to bring the engine to spec which should surely be a priority.

Does your idle rumor mill indicate as to whether this has any effect on the operating envelope of the 787 or 748?
BV
 
tdscanuck
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RE: Are Engines Pacing 787 Deliveries?

Sat Nov 19, 2011 4:55 am

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 9):
The GENx 787 still isn't certified

Yes, they're still doing F&R according to the last Boeing update.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 9):
which we can assume is an engine specific delay since the RR 787 is certified

In the sense that you have to do seperate tests for the different engine/airframe combinations, yes, but that's different than saying the engine is responsible for the delay. The GE engine was certified way before the GE-powered 787 was ready to fly.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 9):
Boeing promised engine spec based on what the engine makers said they could do and the makers couldn't pull it off...at least not when they said they could do it.

True, but totally irrelevant to the delays because being on spec has nothing to do with certification.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 13):
Quoting ferpe (Reply 12):
In all fairness, this is no difference to other new A/C. Mention one that met weight spec at first EIS? Some might have met engine spec but not many...

Justifying screw ups by comparison with other screw ups is something of a copout.

It's not a screwup, it's just how aircraft work. Weight spec is the one that is essentially never met.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 13):
I really hope somebody can make some aircraft on time and on spec just to show everyone else how it's done.

It has never happened before, I'm not sure why we think it will happen in the future.

Quoting steffenbn (Reply 18):
Quoting ferpe (Reply 12):
In all fairness, this is no difference to other new A/C. Mention one that met weight spec at first EIS? Some might have met engine spec but not many...

777? Just to name one

You're thinking of the 777-300 or the -200ER...the original 777, though on time, was not on spec.

Tom.
 
tepidhalibut
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RE: Are Engines Pacing 787 Deliveries?

Sat Nov 19, 2011 12:51 pm

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 13):
It annoys me to no end when vendors of any ilk make fantastic promises, (and suck some of us into believing them), and they're still struggling to fulfill them half a decade later than they said they could.

That's Business. Airframe sales folk sell the product that they want to sell, and the spec go out to appropriate areas (internal and external). Problem is that these specs always include an element of "Stretch".

Lets say Boeing Tailplane Factory are told that the company wants a tailplane that's 10% cheaper, 10% lighter, and 10% stronger than current technology allow. And it's needed in 5 years. Will BTF say "No. Cancel the whole 797 programme, we can't do it"? Unlikely. They'll sign up, and hope that their research and improvements over the next 5 years will deliver such a tailplane. Sure, 10% feels like a stretch, but it might just be possible.
Fast Forward 5 years, and BTF deliver a tailplane that's 8%, 8%, 8% better. Very commendable, and a far better product than todays....but It Missed Spec By 2% on Everything !

When you add in competition between OEMs....and the competition between A and B. It's inevitable that there will be shortfalls in some aspects.

Just my 2Kr worth.   
 
JoeCanuck
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RE: Are Engines Pacing 787 Deliveries?

Sat Nov 19, 2011 1:14 pm

Quoting tepidhalibut (Reply 25):

I certainly understand how these commitments get broken. It's why compensation is written into contracts. One does ones best but it's entertaining when a customer puts a producers feet to the fire when deadlines get broken.

Commercial customers are way less forgiving than military. Many won't hesitate to jump ship if they feel their getting the brown end of the stick...which is a good thing. After all, the best way to keep a vendor honest is by using his bank account as leverage.
What the...?
 
Ruscoe
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RE: Are Engines Pacing 787 Deliveries?

Sat Nov 19, 2011 11:32 pm

Could this from Bloomberg in July:

GE Plugs Boeing 787 Engines’ Fuel Vapor Leak, Preventing Further Delays


By Rachel Layne and Susanna Ray - Jul 27, 2011 5:19 AM GMT+1000 .

General Electric Co. (GE) agreed to modify engines on Boeing Co. (BA)’s 787 Dreamliner by the end of 2012 to stop fuel-vapor leaks, avoiding the possibility of further delays to the new plane.

still be causing problems?

Ruscoe
 
ferpe
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RE: Are Engines Pacing 787 Deliveries?

Wed Nov 30, 2011 10:55 am

The 787 GEnx delivery delays are detailed in this Flightglobal update:

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...ification-to-slide-to-2012-365407/

Now if FAA requires part of the testing to be done on a production aircraft this should have been clear to B since years shouldn't it? Why this sudden inability to have a reworked GEnx frame ready to complete engine-frame certification?

Sounds very unprofessional to me, if I was JAL or GE (gives the GE 787 bad light) I would be very upset by now (unless the nacelle problems as detailed by Lightsaber is the cause for a changed FAA demand).
Non French in France
 
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Revelation
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RE: Are Engines Pacing 787 Deliveries?

Wed Nov 30, 2011 1:49 pm

Quoting tepidhalibut (Reply 25):
Just my 2Kr worth.

+8%!  
Quoting ferpe (Reply 28):
Why this sudden inability to have a reworked GEnx frame ready to complete engine-frame certification?

It's been a consistent inability for the 787 program to deliver anything in a timely fashion. It seems frame 25 is caught up in the tidal wave of incomplete aircraft knocking around KPAE. You would think that they should have some fairly decent data about how much time it takes to do the various rework tasks by now, and could come up with some better forecasts about when they will actually be able to complete things, especially since the earliest rework issues have been known for years now.
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Stitch
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RE: Are Engines Pacing 787 Deliveries?

Wed Nov 30, 2011 2:16 pm

Quoting ferpe (Reply 28):
Now if FAA requires part of the testing to be done on a production aircraft this should have been clear to B since years shouldn't it? Why this sudden inability to have a reworked GEnx frame ready to complete engine-frame certification?

I'm sure it has been obvious to Boeing for years. After all, they did pull in one of NH's production standard birds to complete the RR Propulsion System certification.

But there have been a shedload of changes that have needed to be incorporated and this has clearly delayed availability of a "production standard" airframe for the GE Propulsion System certification.

I'm guessing LN23 / JA805A is not available (last I heard it was in PAE having it's interior installed) since it has completed all of it's change incorporation. So LN25 / VT-ANA must be the next farthest-along airframe and it is still apparently having final change incorporation completed.

On the flip side, we now know why Boeing has been expending resources to get a GEnx bird completed, as opposed to using those resources to get NH more 787s.
 
tdscanuck
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RE: Are Engines Pacing 787 Deliveries?

Wed Nov 30, 2011 2:59 pm

Quoting ferpe (Reply 28):
Now if FAA requires part of the testing to be done on a production aircraft this should have been clear to B since years shouldn't it?

Not necessarily. F&R testing is somewhat unique in that it the way the regulations are written preserves the FAA's ability to add any "testing as deemed necessary" at any time. Since F&R is the final "all up" airplane test prior to issuance of type certification, it's the FAA's last chance to address anything they still have any concerns about or want to see more of. F&R programs can change in mid-stream based on what the regulator wants to see. It's unlikely that Boeing or the FAA knew "years ago" exactly what any F&R program would look like.

Quoting ferpe (Reply 28):
Sounds very unprofessional to me, if I was JAL or GE (gives the GE 787 bad light) I would be very upset by now

If I were JAL or GE I'd already be really upset by now...probably really upset for several years.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 30):
So LN25 / VT-ANA must be the next farthest-along airframe and it is still apparently having final change incorporation completed.

Flightblogger says it's LN35, not LN25.

Tom.
 
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Stitch
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RE: Are Engines Pacing 787 Deliveries?

Wed Nov 30, 2011 3:03 pm

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 31):
Flightblogger says it's LN35, not LN25.

Sorry, was going off Revelation's comment about "Frame 25". That being said, it stands to reason LN35 would have needed less reconfigure work than LN25.
 
NYC777
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RE: Are Engines Pacing 787 Deliveries?

Wed Nov 30, 2011 3:44 pm

L/N 35 is out on the Boeing flightline and Flightbloger says that it should start the final F&R/ETOPs testing by mid December so look for tis 1st flight at that point. Since some of the 300 hours for F&R/ETOPs has been done with ZA005/ZA006 it stands to reason that Boeing would not have to fly that many hours on L/N 35 to finsih certification flight testing on the GEnx powered 787s.
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RE: Are Engines Pacing 787 Deliveries?

Wed Nov 30, 2011 3:47 pm

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 23):
the amount of time that GE is projecting for the introduction of PIP's seems unusually long considering that they are meant to bring the engine to spec which should surely be a priority.

Long PIP times imply major changes. The biggie is increasing the blade count of the low turbine. Translation: A *new* low turbine. It isn't a redesign, it is a different concept. I've heard rumors of fan and low compressor improvements too.

In effect, the low spool is going to advance a half generation while taking a weight penalty (due to the increased blade count). This will also impact maintenance costs (more parts means more labor too). I suspect the cost of low turbine overhaul will go up 20% to 25%.  
Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 23):
Does your idle rumor mill indicate as to whether this has any effect on the operating envelope of the 787 or 748?

   In particular economics for hot/high takeoffs. Some of the 'fixes' disable the thrust reverser.   

However, I'm also hearing rumors that the improvements are generating new interest in the 748I. Just hope or reality I do not know.

Do recall GE promised 2% lower fuel burn than RR.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 30):
But there have been a shedload of changes that have needed to be incorporated and this has clearly delayed availability of a "production standard" airframe for the GE Propulsion System certification.

This is a larger 'shedload' heading down the pipeline...

Lightsaber
"They did not know it was impossible, so they did it!" - Mark Twain
 
ferpe
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RE: Are Engines Pacing 787 Deliveries?

Wed Nov 30, 2011 4:49 pm



Quoting lightsaber (Reply 34):
Do recall GE promised 2% lower fuel burn than RR.

When the 787 program got underway everyone assumed that GE would deliver on their promises   and the RR would be the "usual" couple of percent short on SFC   .

So when RR announced they were not making us disappointed this time either everyone was "didn't I tell you so"   . Only for GE to be in more dire straits  Wow! . Wonder if they took their eyes of the ball after the 77W GE90-115 home-run    .

[Edited 2011-11-30 09:15:23]
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ferpe
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RE: Are Engines Pacing 787 Deliveries?

Wed Nov 30, 2011 5:27 pm

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 31):
F&R programs can change in mid-stream based on what the regulator wants to see.

OK, so it might have changed but given that this is not the first frame that B certifies and the FAA and B work side by side for years on getting the certification I'm pretty sure B got a heads up that FAA wanted to change to a production frame and it must have been a border case for quite some time. Now any professional managment team trying to finally get the product including it's primary options out the door would have had a production GEnx 788 being brought up to the appropriate rev level just in case. Something must have happened that was not easy to foresee.

Yet I wonder why the new BCA 787 team fall into those same traps as the guys they replaced, time in time out. Fancher must have been chosen because he normally delivers on promises .

The 787 must be one hell of a program to manage    .
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Stitch
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RE: Are Engines Pacing 787 Deliveries?

Wed Nov 30, 2011 6:20 pm

Quoting ferpe (Reply 35):
When the 787 program got underway everyone assumed that GE would deliver on their promises   and the RR would be the "usual" couple of percent short on SFC   .

The SFC miss on the baseline GEnx (2-3%) was about half that of the Trent 1000 (4-5%) per Airbus' competitive analysis of the 787 program.

At the time they announced it, GE expected PiP1 for the GEnx1B to recover all of the SFC miss, but that does not appear to be the case based on results from testing on ZA005. So they're working on a second PiP for the GEnx1B and a first PiP for the GEnx2B (as that engine already incorporates some of PiP1 for the GEnx1B).

NH's next two airframes are reported to have the Trent 1000 Package B engines, which were said to bring the Trent 1000 to within 1% of spec (per a December 2009 article in AW&ST), though a demonstrator engine in August 2010 provided better than spec SFC improvements (by 0.5%).
 
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kanban
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RE: Are Engines Pacing 787 Deliveries?

Thu Dec 01, 2011 2:02 am

Quoting ferpe (Reply 28):
Now if FAA requires part of the testing to be done on a production aircraft this should have been clear to B since years shouldn't it? Why this sudden inability to have a reworked GEnx frame ready to complete engine-frame certification?



Only the FAA knows why the test requirements changed and they needed a production a/p .. at least when approved, no one can say they skimped on test requirements
 
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RE: Are Engines Pacing 787 Deliveries?

Thu Dec 01, 2011 3:20 am

Quoting ferpe (Reply 36):
I'm pretty sure B got a heads up that FAA wanted to change to a production frame and it must have been a border case for quite some time.

Even if that's the case, Boeing has been scrambling to get production frames out the door as fast as they can for years...knowing they need a GE one wouldn't necessarily have accelerated anything.

Quoting ferpe (Reply 36):
Now any professional managment team trying to finally get the product including it's primary options out the door would have had a production GEnx 788 being brought up to the appropriate rev level just in case.

That's exactly what they're doing. The lead time on production is at least 6 months, you can't just randomly decide to jump a GE airframe forward in the production system.

Quoting ferpe (Reply 36):
Something must have happened that was not easy to foresee.

That would adequately describe the entire 787 program to date.

Tom.
 
ferpe
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RE: Are Engines Pacing 787 Deliveries?

Sun Dec 11, 2011 7:06 pm

It seems the nacelle issues on the GEnx powered 788 takes some time to fix, JAL now expects delivery mid-Feb 2012:

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/gener...Slips%20To%20February&channel=comm
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tdscanuck
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RE: Are Engines Pacing 787 Deliveries?

Sun Dec 11, 2011 9:53 pm

Quoting ferpe (Reply 40):
It seems the nacelle issues on the GEnx powered 788 takes some time to fix, JAL now expects delivery mid-Feb 2012:

I see the mid-Feb 2012 dates in the article you linked, but how are you tying that to any nacelle problem? That's not mentioned anywhere.

Tom.
 
ferpe
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RE: Are Engines Pacing 787 Deliveries?

Sun Dec 11, 2011 10:39 pm

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 41):
I see the mid-Feb 2012 dates in the article you linked, but how are you tying that to any nacelle problem? That's not mentioned anywhere.

Reply 21
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tdscanuck
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RE: Are Engines Pacing 787 Deliveries?

Mon Dec 12, 2011 1:24 am

Quoting ferpe (Reply 42):
Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 41):
I see the mid-Feb 2012 dates in the article you linked, but how are you tying that to any nacelle problem? That's not mentioned anywhere.

Reply 21

That's identified as a 747-8 issue...the two aircraft don't have the same nacelle. So how does a 747-8 nacelle problem tie back to a 787-8 JAL problem?

Tom.
 
Ruscoe
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RE: Are Engines Pacing 787 Deliveries?

Mon Dec 12, 2011 1:03 pm

I see the Trent 1000 B only received EASA approval today.

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ferpe
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RE: Are Engines Pacing 787 Deliveries?

Mon Dec 12, 2011 4:05 pm

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 43):
That's identified as a 747-8 issue...the two aircraft don't have the same nacelle. So how does a 747-8 nacelle problem tie back to a 787-8 JAL problem?

My bad, I read Lightsaber's post wrongly. So what is the reason for another months slip (mid Jan to mid Feb).
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ssteve
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RE: Are Engines Pacing 787 Deliveries?

Mon Dec 12, 2011 6:38 pm

Quoting ferpe (Reply 45):
My bad, I read Lightsaber's post wrongly. So what is the reason for another months slip (mid Jan to mid Feb).

You read it right the first time. His original post indicted the 787, and the post you quoted seems to suggest the issue is also present on the 747-8. But it is entirely a rumor.

JAL is in bankruptcy reorganization. It's possible they don't mind the delay.
 
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RE: Are Engines Pacing 787 Deliveries?

Mon Dec 12, 2011 8:15 pm

Quoting ferpe (Reply 45):
My bad, I read Lightsaber's post wrongly. So what is the reason for another months slip (mid Jan to mid Feb).

It's pretty normal for EIS to take place a month after TC. The initial TC is for a generic airplane, usually with a zero passenger interior. An additional pile of paper is required for a customer airline Certification with actual seats..
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
 
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Stitch
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RE: Are Engines Pacing 787 Deliveries?

Mon Dec 12, 2011 8:17 pm

Is JL's full cabin on site and ready for installation?

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