747400sp
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Did HA Make A Mistake In Ordering 763s?

Sun Nov 20, 2011 12:27 am

Back in the early 2000s, when it was time for Hawaiian Air to replace their aging fleet of DC10s, they order 767 300s for this job. Ten years later, HA plans to replace their almost new 767 300s with A332s. A332s are pretty much the same size as DC10s, so I would think that it would have been the better choice in the early 2000s, as a DC10 replacement. Also A332s have better range than a 767s and much better cargo capacity. So do you think HA made a mistake in ordering 767 300s, to replace their DC10s, instead of A332s in the early 2000?




PS: Please forgive me if I wrong, but I believe HA bought those 767 300s Brand new.
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Did HA Make A Mistake In Ordering 763s?

Sun Nov 20, 2011 12:32 am

I believe HA got some 763s from DL...
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flyguy89
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RE: Did HA Make A Mistake In Ordering 763s?

Sun Nov 20, 2011 12:41 am

I don't think they were in a financial position to order the A332 at the time. The 767's were relatively cheap, around the same capacity as their DC10's, hell of a lot more efficient...it just made sense for them and they did their job well I'd say as HA is now very profitable. I think what's making them look at the A332 now is that they're going beyond just the West Coast-Hawaii market with all their new, longer stage Asian routes and recently announced JFK route.
 
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1337Delta764
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RE: Did HA Make A Mistake In Ordering 763s?

Sun Nov 20, 2011 12:51 am

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 2):
I don't think they were in a financial position to order the A332 at the time. The 767's were relatively cheap, around the same capacity as their DC10's, hell of a lot more efficient...it just made sense for them and they did their job well I'd say as HA is now very profitable. I think what's making them look at the A332 now is that they're going beyond just the West Coast-Hawaii market with all their new, longer stage Asian routes and recently announced JFK route.

I personally think the 764ER would have been the ideal choice for HA to replace their DC-10s at the time. The 764ER has about the same passenger capacity, has slighty more cargo capacity, and has a little more range than the DC-10. After all, Boeing specifically designed the 764ER to meet the L-1011 and DC-10 replacement needs of DL and CO, respectively.
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aloha73g
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RE: Did HA Make A Mistake In Ordering 763s?

Sun Nov 20, 2011 1:58 am

Hmmm.....the 10 years since they started flying the 767s have been the most profitable & successful 10 years in HA's history.

The 767 is smaller than the DC10, but HA's strategy at the time was to start nonstop flights to smaller west coast cities without HNL service (SMF, SJC, SAN, as well as OGG-SEA & PDX)....all routes for which the A332 is likely too big & routes that will continue to see 767 service from HA for years to come.

Quoting 747400sp (Thread starter):
PS: Please forgive me if I wrong, but I believe HA bought those 767 300s Brand new.

SOME of the 767s were delivered new to HA, others are much older.

3 (580, 581 & 582) were ordered by Ansett but picked up by HA after they went bust. They were delivered new to HA on lease and purchased outright by HA recently.
4 (583, 584, 585, 586) were leased from LTU and are older.
7 (587, 588, 589, 590, 591, 592 & 593) were leased from Boeing & delivered new to HA. These are the most likely to leave the fleet soon as Boeing is placing them with carriers like AC.
4 (594, 596, 597 & 598) were purchased from DL in 2006 and are older.

Atleast 7 of the 767s are owned by HA and will not be leaving the fleet for a while.

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tdscanuck
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RE: Did HA Make A Mistake In Ordering 763s?

Sun Nov 20, 2011 4:24 am

Quoting 747400sp (Thread starter):
Ten years later, HA plans to replace their almost new 767 300s with A332s.

If they're 10 years old, they're not "almost new", that's about 50% of the design life.

Quoting 747400sp (Thread starter):
So do you think HA made a mistake in ordering 767 300s, to replace their DC10s, instead of A332s in the early 2000?

No. In addition to the issues already covered, Airbus is a long way from Hawaii and, at that time, has essentially zero presence on the islands. Boeing and Douglas, on the other hand, were sitting right there at two of HA's biggest locations on the mainland. Spares support alone probably covered it.

Quoting 747400sp (Thread starter):
Also A332s have better range than a 767s and much better cargo capacity.

But they didn't need more range at the time. More cargo would have been useful if they'd been able to fill it but there's no particular guarantee that would have been the case.

Tom.
 
AR385
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RE: Did HA Make A Mistake In Ordering 763s?

Sun Nov 20, 2011 4:35 am

Another thing to consider is that at the time, Hawaii was a two airline dominion. Don´t forget Aloha. So in that market environment, the A332 was too big.
 
BMI727
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RE: Did HA Make A Mistake In Ordering 763s?

Sun Nov 20, 2011 4:49 am

Quoting 747400sp (Thread starter):
Ten years later, HA plans to replace their almost new 767 300s with A332s. A332s are pretty much the same size as DC10s, so I would think that it would have been the better choice in the early 2000s, as a DC10 replacement. Also A332s have better range than a 767s and much better cargo capacity. So do you think HA made a mistake in ordering 767 300s, to replace their DC10s, instead of A332s in the early 2000?

Considering Hawaiian's position back then and the presence of Aloha, the 767 was probably the best way for them to go. Had Aloha been gone when the replacement was done, they might have looked at 767-400s, A330s, or 777s.

And remember that the A330s were for expansion as much as they were to replace 767s, at least up until the recent order for five more. Now that may have changed.
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CV880
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RE: Did HA Make A Mistake In Ordering 763s?

Sun Nov 20, 2011 8:02 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 1):
I believe HA got some 763s from DL...

HA got some non ER's from DL

Quoting 747400sp (Thread starter):
PS: Please forgive me if I wrong, but I believe HA bought those 767 300s Brand new.

Some were new and some leased.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 3):
I personally think the 764ER would have been the ideal choice for HA to replace their DC-10s at the time.

Doesn't work from OGG where HA has or will have nonstops to more mainland cities (Short runway). Much more could be done from OGG(including flights to Japan) if the Locals would extend the runway which had previously been approved over 10 years ago.
 
ghifty
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RE: Did HA Make A Mistake In Ordering 763s?

Sun Nov 20, 2011 9:16 am

The 767-400ER does come to mind, considering that it was designed for DL/CO to replace the L10/DC10. Of course, it should be considered just what DL/CO used those aircraft for.. in which the 764 quickly loses favor.

I do love the 767-400ER though, my favorite. 2-3-2, and raked winglets all the way!   

Quoting CV880 (Reply 8):
Doesn't work from OGG where HA has or will have nonstops to more mainland cities (Short runway). Much more could be done from OGG(including flights to Japan) if the Locals would extend the runway which had previously been approved over 10 years ago.

In that case the 757 would have been nice.    I kid, of course. Wouldn't having a mixed fleet of 767-400's and 767-300's (if they can land at OGG, that is) been okay/ideal? I'd imagine it'd be cheaper to have two aircraft of the same family, than two aircraft from two different manufacturers!
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hiflyer
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RE: Did HA Make A Mistake In Ordering 763s?

Sun Nov 20, 2011 2:23 pm

I agree the 763 did and still does a great job for them....great aircraft to grow a market for the bigger a330. Freight is where the a330 shines...standard size (ld3) ulds loaded side by side instead of one per row....full size pallets loaded width wise instead of length wise...makes the cargo pit far more a money maker than the narrower 767 family....especially for interchange from other carriers. One of the original intents of the 787 was to be a 767 replacement...first thing was that it would be standard widebody width for freight...not the narrower 767....no aircraft after the 767 has used that narrower barrel...for for a reason....I agree with missing the y 2-3-2 configs as a customer.....
 
HNLPointShoot
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RE: Did HA Make A Mistake In Ordering 763s?

Sun Nov 20, 2011 2:45 pm

Quoting aloha73g (Reply 4):
7 (587, 588, 589, 590, 591, 592 & 593) were leased from Boeing & delivered new to HA. These are the most likely to leave the fleet soon as Boeing is placing them with carriers like AC.

591 and 593 have already left the fleet; both are now with Air Canada.

HNL RareBirds on 591 leaving
HNL RareBirds on 593 leaving

They're now registered C-GHPE (591) and C-GHPN (593).
 
something
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RE: Did HA Make A Mistake In Ordering 763s?

Sun Nov 20, 2011 3:42 pm

It's an interesting discussion, but the only actual argument that's been made has been

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 2):
I don't think they were in a financial position to order the A332 at the time. The 767's were relatively cheap, around the same capacity as their DC10's, hell of a lot more efficient...it just made sense for them and they did their job well I'd say as HA is now very profitable.

I have no insight to the fleet planning of HA, obviously, and therefore can only speculate as to the reasons why the 763s were preferred over A332s back then. However, saying that ''the 763 can do almost the same, just not as good, but still sufficient'' is not a real selling point.

So I too would assume it had something to do with funding, availability and a Boeing preference due to more cockpit commonalities. Maybe they were also lacking the appropriate mx facilities and found the 767s to be the cheaper/easier alternative at the same.

Their choice to go A332 today may also have had different influences. A330s have become more efficient over the past 11 years and the demand for them is quite high. Next to having lower operating costs, providing a capacity increase and opening up new markets, the 763s will soon become unsellable while the second hand market for the A330s has several years left to it. I would assume the annual depreciation of a new A332 vs an old B763 to be lower over the coming years (until the A350s arrive), and the efficiency edge large enough to offset the associated costs (capital, fleet introduction, training etc.)

Why they chose A350s over B787s is a much more interesting question though..
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BMI727
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RE: Did HA Make A Mistake In Ordering 763s?

Sun Nov 20, 2011 4:10 pm

Quoting ghifty (Reply 9):
The 767-400ER does come to mind, considering that it was designed for DL/CO to replace the L10/DC10. Of course, it should be considered just what DL/CO used those aircraft for.. in which the 764 quickly loses favor.

It would be interesting to compare how a combination of 757s and 767-400ERs could have done for Hawaiian, but they are a fairly small airline and the lack of commonality probably made the 767-300ER a better overall package. Same with a combination of 737NGs and 767s.

Quoting something (Reply 12):
So I too would assume it had something to do with funding, availability and a Boeing preference due to more cockpit commonalities.

Cockpit commonalities with what? 767s are the first real Boeings Hawaiian ever had.

Quoting something (Reply 12):
the 763s will soon become unsellable while the second hand market for the A330s has several years left to it.

I think most of the current and future fleet is leased.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
aztrainer
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RE: Did HA Make A Mistake In Ordering 763s?

Sun Nov 20, 2011 4:33 pm

I agree with others as it was the bets fit for the time and allowed them to expand.

I know that they just added 5 more 330's, but what is the replacement scheduled for the 767's? The ones that they own, will they be keeping them past their next D checks and using them on the west cost destinations?

Also, as cargo has been discussed heavenly, what is the most profitable cargo destination? I would assume (my theory only) as it would be SFO and LAX as they see the 330 now.
 
HNLPointShoot
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RE: Did HA Make A Mistake In Ordering 763s?

Sun Nov 20, 2011 4:40 pm

Quoting something (Reply 12):
Why they chose A350s over B787s is a much more interesting question though..

IIRC, it's because HA's RFP in 2007 asked for two separate aircraft to fulfill medium and long-term fleet needs. Boeing responded by offering more 767s in the medium-term and 787s in the long-term, while Airbus offered the A330 in the medium-term and the A350 in the long-term. HA found that the 787 and the A350 were substantially similar as far as their needs were concerned, but liked the greater capabilities offered by the A330, so they went with Airbus' proposal.
 
aztrainer
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RE: Did HA Make A Mistake In Ordering 763s?

Sun Nov 20, 2011 4:53 pm

Quoting HNLPointShoot (Reply 15):
IIRC, it's because HA's RFP in 2007 asked for two separate aircraft to fulfill medium and long-term fleet needs. Boeing responded by offering more 767s in the medium-term and 787s in the long-term, while Airbus offered the A330 in the medium-term and the A350 in the long-term. HA found that the 787 and the A350 were substantially similar as far as their needs were concerned, but liked the greater capabilities offered by the A330, so they went with Airbus' proposal.

Would this be why Boeing is taking back the leased 767's to give to AC?
 
Viscount724
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RE: Did HA Make A Mistake In Ordering 763s?

Sun Nov 20, 2011 4:54 pm

Quoting 747400sp (Thread starter):
I believe HA bought those 767 300s Brand new.

Boeing doesn't show any 763s ordered directly by HA. I think they were a mix of new aircraft obtained from leasing companies and used aircraft obtained from DL and German charter carrier LTU (now part of Air Berlin). One fleet list shows 4 ex-DL and 5 ex-LTU. I'm sure those aircraft were much cheaper than new A330s and there were few if any used A330s available when HA acquired their 763s.
 
bobnwa
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RE: Did HA Make A Mistake In Ordering 763s?

Sun Nov 20, 2011 5:09 pm

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 3):
I personally think the 764ER would have been the ideal choice for HA to replace their DC-10s at the time. The 764ER has about the same passenger capacity, has slighty more cargo capacity, and has a little more range than the DC-10. After all, Boeing specifically designed the 764ER to meet the L-1011 and DC-10 replacement needs of DL and CO, respectively.

How did we all know that this comment would be coming.  
 
HNLPointShoot
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RE: Did HA Make A Mistake In Ordering 763s?

Sun Nov 20, 2011 6:01 pm

Quoting aztrainer (Reply 16):
Would this be why Boeing is taking back the leased 767's to give to AC?

No, it's more likely that Boeing didn't want to renew the leases so they could have the 767s available to compensate for 787 delays.
 
roseflyer
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RE: Did HA Make A Mistake In Ordering 763s?

Sun Nov 20, 2011 6:54 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 17):
Boeing doesn't show any 763s ordered directly by HA. I think they were a mix of new aircraft obtained from leasing companies and used aircraft obtained from DL and German charter carrier LTU (now part of Air Berlin). One fleet list shows 4 ex-DL and 5 ex-LTU. I'm sure those aircraft were much cheaper than new A330s and there were few if any used A330s available when HA acquired their 763s.

Hawaiian had some creative ways for getting the 767 fleet which likely led to some significantly lower acquisition costs. The new build 767s were leased from Ansett Worldwide and Boeing Capital Corp. The leasing and getting them used likely favored the 767 as deals like that were possible since the 767 fleet was quite large in the early 2000s, especially with airlines shrinking in service after the Asian Financial Crisis and Dot.com bust. The A330-200 at that time was just entering service and airlines had not really started utilizing the plane heavily.
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JAAlbert
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RE: Did HA Make A Mistake In Ordering 763s?

Sun Nov 20, 2011 8:21 pm

I've flown HA SAN-HNL and SAN-OGG on several occasions. The SAN-HNL flights have always been full - a few seats empty at the rear. Th OGG flights have always had a few empty rows in the rear, which leads me to believe that the 767 is sized right for the San Diego market. Anything larger might be too much plane for them -- certainly for the OGG route.

I remember seeing the instructions in German in one of planes!
 
phatfarmlines
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RE: Did HA Make A Mistake In Ordering 763s?

Sun Nov 20, 2011 8:28 pm

Quoting aloha73g (Reply 4):
Hmmm.....the 10 years since they started flying the 767s have been the most profitable & successful 10 years in HA's history.
Quoting AR385 (Reply 6):
Another thing to consider is that at the time, Hawaii was a two airline dominion. Don´t forget Aloha. So in that market environment, the A332 was too big.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 7):
Considering Hawaiian's position back then and the presence of Aloha, the 767 was probably the best way for them to go.

Agreed. HA is in a much better financial shape now and it even helps their position moreso when DL/AA/CO/UA have cut capacity to Hawaii in the past decade. The 763 was certainly not a mistake.
 
PGNCS
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RE: Did HA Make A Mistake In Ordering 763s?

Sun Nov 20, 2011 10:03 pm

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 18):
How did we all know that this comment would be coming.

No kidding...how did we know?  

If they wanted the 764 they would have bought it.
 
BMI727
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RE: Did HA Make A Mistake In Ordering 763s?

Sun Nov 20, 2011 11:06 pm

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 23):

The big issue with the 764 would be that it would likely have struggled mightily flying out of OGG necessitating a second type and the 763 doesn't have enough commonality to make it worthwhile for a small airline.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
SEA
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RE: Did HA Make A Mistake In Ordering 763s?

Sun Nov 20, 2011 11:17 pm

The current 332X is a lot more efficient a machine than the 332 that was on offer when HA were replacing their DC-10s. From a performance standpoint, I'm not sure if it would have been able to do the routes that the 763 can do without weight restrictions. Many of the Hawaiian Islands have runways that are juuuust barely long enough for the original A330, but roomy enough for a 763,
 
woodsboy
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RE: Did HA Make A Mistake In Ordering 763s?

Mon Nov 21, 2011 3:36 am

At the time of the fleet transition away from the DC-10 and towards the 763 HA was in no financial position to order up to around 20 new 764s which would have been the only option for the 764 since they were a new type, not yet in service and there was no existing "used" 764s available. I agree that the 763, at the time was the best fit for HA. 764s have, over the years shown themselves to be somewhat more flexible than we thought it would be but still unable to carry cargo containers like the A332/333. The 763 was available from a number of sources in a mixture of new-ish, used and quite used conditions which allowed HA to acquire the number they needed and get them online quickly and plan for their useful lives at that time. It was a whole new universe in Hawaii as far as the airline business goes back in 1999/2000 than it is now. Who would have thought that HA would become the regional powerhouse that it now is??
 
HNLPointShoot
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RE: Did HA Make A Mistake In Ordering 763s?

Mon Nov 21, 2011 5:47 am

Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 21):
I remember seeing the instructions in German in one of planes!

That's how you know you're on an ex-LTU plane.    
Quoting woodsboy (Reply 26):
It was a whole new universe in Hawaii as far as the airline business goes back in 1999/2000 than it is now. Who would have thought that HA would become the regional powerhouse that it now is??

Heck, 10 years ago, no one would've thought that AQ would basically cease to exist (unless they merged with HA, which came up from time to time).

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