VC10er
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Why No Non-stops From Asia To GRU? (plus)

Mon Nov 21, 2011 1:53 am

Isn't it now possible to connect "any" 2 points on the globe non-stop with the right aircraft (and by the way what ac has the range?)

But all these new flights to Brazil seem to all go through Madrid, right? Is there a non-stop I'm unaware of? Is it a matter of not filling one ac without an extra stop to help fill it? I know VARIG didn't seem to make money to Tokyo (I have no facts to back that up) even with a stop in LA. But that was then. Why no ANA or TAM to Tokyo or Cathay to GRU with a GIG tag? In fact out of curiosity how do GIG bound pax get from GRU to GIG?

And can someone buy a ticket in Madrid on SQ (or others) to GRU?
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oksman
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RE: Why No Non-stops From Asia To GRU? (plus)

Mon Nov 21, 2011 1:57 am

I usually fly TK with a very convenient connection at IST. And I guess only 77L and A345 would have the legs to go to Asia non stop from GRU.
 
steex
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RE: Why No Non-stops From Asia To GRU? (plus)

Mon Nov 21, 2011 2:02 am

Quoting VC10er (Thread starter):
Isn't it now possible to connect "any" 2 points on the globe non-stop with the right aircraft (and by the way what ac has the range?)

No, not with a profitable load. That's why nobody flies Europe-Australia non-stop either.

Quoting VC10er (Thread starter):
Is there a non-stop I'm unaware of?

There is not.

Quoting VC10er (Thread starter):
In fact out of curiosity how do GIG bound pax get from GRU to GIG?

A connection via codeshare, interline, or separate ticket.

Quoting VC10er (Thread starter):
And can someone buy a ticket in Madrid on SQ (or others) to GRU?

Yes, the routes to GRU have fifth freedom rights and would almost certainly not be flown without them. In reality, the airline usually makes more profit out of filling the same seat twice at SIN-BCN and BCN-GRU O&D fares than it would for a through SIN-GRU fare. If they couldn't get BCN-GRU passengers, that sector wouldn't be viable.
 
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RWA380
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RE: Why No Non-stops From Asia To GRU? (plus)

Mon Nov 21, 2011 2:07 am

Wouldn't a non-stop to GRU, operate more easily from SIN than NRT? I'm not really sure....
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RE: Why No Non-stops From Asia To GRU? (plus)

Mon Nov 21, 2011 2:13 am

You are really stretching the range of the aircraft and profitable load factors - though SIN is about a 1,240 nm shorter flight than from NRT.

SIN-GRU - 8,644 nm
NRT-GRU - 9,984 nm

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=rjaa-sb...ss-kewr&MS=wls&DU=nm&SG=454&SU=kts

Current longest world commercial flights - EWR-SIN - 8,285 nm

Note the extreme range distorts the route on any flat map projection, even a great circle projection.

The EWR-SIN flight is only profitable because it is a specially configured B777 with a smaller passenger load to allow the distance. Also - the aircraft is a premium aircraft for business customers. There are no economy class tickets sold - only business class.

Could SIN-GRU fill the seats with business class in both directions every day?

[Edited 2011-11-20 18:15:12]
 
steex
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RE: Why No Non-stops From Asia To GRU? (plus)

Mon Nov 21, 2011 2:13 am

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 3):
Wouldn't a non-stop to GRU, operate more easily from SIN than NRT? I'm not really sure....

Yes. NRT-GRU is actually about 800nm longer than LHR-SYD, which probably also has larger demand and is not flown. That said, even SIN-GRU would be the new longest flight in the world by 359nm at 8,644nm.
 
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RE: Why No Non-stops From Asia To GRU? (plus)

Mon Nov 21, 2011 2:15 am

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 4):
The EWR-SIN flight is only profitable because it is a specially configured B777 with a smaller passenger load to allow the distance. Also - the aircraft is a premium aircraft for business customers.

EWR-SIN is flown with an A340-500, not a B777. Also note that the aircraft originally flew the route with greater seating capacity and the route was terminated (along within SIN-LAX) due to an inability to operate profitably. SQ actually tried to move the aircraft, but finding no takers, they instead reconfigured the birds to the current premium layout and reinstated the routes.
 
something
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RE: Why No Non-stops From Asia To GRU? (plus)

Mon Nov 21, 2011 2:17 am

There are no real 'financial centers' in South America other than GRU and maybe EZE. The shortest flights to money-Asia (ie SIN) would still be around the 10000nm mark and would only be viable with a 77L or A345 in special configuration. Apparently, there is just not enough super-high-yield demand on the route to warrant such a flight next to the various one stop alternatives in place. It would not be a real advantage for anybody travelling beyond SIN either.

So while it's practical in theory, they're unfeasible in practice.
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RE: Why No Non-stops From Asia To GRU? (plus)

Mon Nov 21, 2011 2:43 am

if asia-gru is not possible, what about syd-gru nonstop? would it be feasible? is it much farther than any route in asia?
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RE: Why No Non-stops From Asia To GRU? (plus)

Mon Nov 21, 2011 2:53 am

INTERESTING! the reason I mentioned Tokyo was the size of the Japanese Brazilians but that certainly would be more about connecting 2 financial centers, same with SIN or HK.

I wonder if SQ looked at a non-stop similar to EWR. With the hyper growth of Brazil I know of nobody in business who does not have an investment or interests there. I could easily see myself doing one of my big triangle trips...NYC, GRU, SIN, NYC. I haven't done a triangle with Brazil and Asia, but I have many time did NYC, EUROPE, GRU, JFK. It's just a matter of time before I need to do Brazil / Asia then home.
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qf002
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RE: Why No Non-stops From Asia To GRU? (plus)

Mon Nov 21, 2011 3:12 am

I'm not sure that the market is there for a daily nonstop... As it is, all the other flights between Asia and South America have fifth freedom rights which help support loads and profits. Without having those rights, I doubt that the traffic would exist to make such a service profitable.

Quoting leonardoq (Reply 8):
if asia-gru is not possible, what about syd-gru nonstop? would it be feasible? is it much farther than any route in asia?

Would be possible, the only aircraft capable would be the A345 (have to have 4 engines for ETOPS which eliminates the 77L). AKL-GRU is much more likely IMO.
 
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RE: Why No Non-stops From Asia To GRU? (plus)

Mon Nov 21, 2011 3:57 am

I still think we will see some non- stops in the future with 787 or A-350's, it will be a while though.
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RE: Why No Non-stops From Asia To GRU? (plus)

Mon Nov 21, 2011 4:01 am

Quoting VC10er (Thread starter):
Isn't it now possible to connect "any" 2 points on the globe non-stop with the right aircraft (and by the way what ac has the range?)

No, it's not possible. When people started commenting that any 2 points on the globe would be connected was with a US perspective, because any commercially feasible route can be reached from any point in the US.

Besides, you seem not to be considering DOH and DXB as Asia.

[Edited 2011-11-20 20:03:11]
 
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RE: Why No Non-stops From Asia To GRU? (plus)

Mon Nov 21, 2011 4:41 am

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 12):

I don't think DOH or DXB as being Asia. What did I write that led you to think that? I guess I focused my attention on Asia and Brazil as both are on my itinerary often.

I was not aware that "any 2 points in the world" meant only from the USA. If so why did Boeing use a 777 from Sydney to London, via the Pacific (the long way) to make the point? They could have just as easily flown to South Africa from Seattle (if that would be the more than half the world)? I always figured it was to boost international attention.
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qf002
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RE: Why No Non-stops From Asia To GRU? (plus)

Mon Nov 21, 2011 4:58 am

Quoting VC10er (Reply 13):
I don't think DOH or DXB as being Asia.

I agree that for the purposes of Aviation, the ME isn't really Asia. The geographical location is vastly different, so while they're technically Asian nations in continent, in terms of Aviation I'd place them as Middle East/North Africa.

Quoting VC10er (Reply 13):
I was not aware that "any 2 points in the world" meant only from the USA. If so why did Boeing use a 777 from Sydney to London, via the Pacific (the long way) to make the point? They could have just as easily flown to South Africa from Seattle (if that would be the more than half the world)? I always figured it was to boost international attention.

These planes will fly connect any two points on the globe. The point that C010T3 was making is that the US is the only place where all areas of the world can be economically reached in passenger service. A 77L/A345 SYD-LHR service is possible, but with very few passengers. However from the United States there are only a couple of major destinations that would be hard to serve (such as PER).
 
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RE: Why No Non-stops From Asia To GRU? (plus)

Mon Nov 21, 2011 5:32 am

Quoting something (Reply 7):
There are no real 'financial centers' in South America other than GRU and maybe EZE.

That is actually false. Cities like Rio de Janeiro and Santiago both boast robust and growing financial and banking centers. Many well-known corporations have offices and are undergoing mega projects in the financial districts of these two cities and are also expanding their presence in places like Lima, Bogota, many others in Brasil. If there were no "financial centers" in Latin America, then why would US and European carriers be dead-set launching new routes to cities in Chile, Peru, Colombia, etc and continually clamoring for increased access to restricted markets like Brasil? (and I'm not just talking about GRU) from cities like London, New York, Miami, Frankfurt, etc. etc.

Just because yes, it doesn't make financial sense to deploy an aircraft on an ULH route from Asia to South America doesn't mean you can make sweeping statements about the continent in its entirety. There are also tons of other commercial ties between Asia and Latin America outside of finance and banking, not to mention tourism and VFR traffic which does exist as well (particularly between Japan and Brasil) that drive the travel demand between the two regions.

How is that relevant to the discussion anyway??
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RE: Why No Non-stops From Asia To GRU? (plus)

Mon Nov 21, 2011 7:50 am

GRU (23°25'55"S 46°28'10"W) BOM (19°05'19"N 72°52'05"E) 82.1° (E) 7431 nm
GRU (23°25'55"S 46°28'10"W) SIN (1°21'01"N 103°59'40"E) 123.7° (SE) 8644 nm
GRU (23°25'55"S 46°28'10"W) NRT (35°45'55"N 140°23'08"E) 336.4° (NW) 9984 nm
GRU (23°25'55"S 46°28'10"W) PVG (31°08'36"N 121°48'19"E) 50.1° (NE) 10033 nm
(thanks www.gcmap.com )

Well, BOM is Asia, not "Middle East/North Africa", GRU-BOM distance is shorter than GRU-SIN, but neither Indian nor Brazilian airlines seem to be interested to operate that route anytime soon. And worth to mention, GRU-BOM wouldn't be a market for those SQ SIN-EWR configuration aircraft type to fly.

Even some route like BOG-NRT linking Northern South America major city with Japan would be too much of a stretch and hardly profitable without the right aircraft, configuration and regional economics..
BOG (4°42'11"N 74°08'18"W) BOM (19°05'19"N 72°52'05"E) 52.6° (NE) 8398 nm
BOG (4°42'11"N 74°08'18"W) SIN (1°21'01"N 103°59'40"E) 15.8° (N) 10424 nm
BOG (4°42'11"N 74°08'18"W) NRT (35°45'55"N 140°23'08"E) 324.3° (NW) 7704 nm
BOG (4°42'11"N 74°08'18"W) PVG (31°08'36"N 121°48'19"E) 338.2° (N) 8475 nm
(thanks www.gcmap.com )
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airbazar
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RE: Why No Non-stops From Asia To GRU? (plus)

Mon Nov 21, 2011 1:19 pm

Quoting steex (Reply 2):
Quoting VC10er (Thread starter):
Is there a non-stop I'm unaware of?
There is not.
Quoting VC10er (Reply 13):
I don't think DOH or DXB as being Asia. What did I write that led you to think that? I guess I focused my attention on Asia and Brazil as both are on my itinerary often.

But you should. No offense but DOH and DXB are in Asia so the statement that there are no non-stop connections between GRU and Asia is totally false. To say that Dubai is not Asia is like saying that Kiev in not in Europe or that Panama is not in South America, or that Morocco is not in Africa. Ridiculous.
 
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RE: Why No Non-stops From Asia To GRU? (plus)

Mon Nov 21, 2011 1:23 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 17):
Panama is not in South America

Well, Panama technically isn't.
 
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RE: Why No Non-stops From Asia To GRU? (plus)

Mon Nov 21, 2011 2:18 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 17):
or that Panama is not in South America

OMG.. get an Atlas ASAP...

Rgs,

Neo
 
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RE: Why No Non-stops From Asia To GRU? (plus)

Mon Nov 21, 2011 2:25 pm

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 4):
The EWR-SIN flight is only profitable because it is a specially configured B777 with a smaller passenger load to allow the distance. Also - the aircraft is a premium aircraft for business customers. There are no economy class tickets sold - only business class.

Singapore Air flies a A340-500 with 100 J class seats nonstop from SIN to EWR.

Dubai and Qatar have nonstops to Sao Paulo and Rio. Those are the most direct flights for Asian passengers. Johannesburg may be the second most direct from SIN, HKG and Bangkok to GRU.
 
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RE: Why No Non-stops From Asia To GRU? (plus)

Mon Nov 21, 2011 2:54 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 17):
But you should. No offense but DOH and DXB are in Asia so the statement that there are no non-stop connections between GRU and Asia is totally false. To say that Dubai is not Asia is like saying that Kiev in not in Europe or that Panama is not in South America, or that Morocco is not in Africa. Ridiculous.

As others have mentioned, Panama is not in South America (but rather North America), so be careful about how demeaning you are toward the OP.

Regardless, when I replied indicating that there aren't any non-stops, I was replying to the spirit of his question rather than the letter. He only mentioned eastern Asian airlines, so I addressed the question as such.
 
incitatus
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RE: Why No Non-stops From Asia To GRU? (plus)

Mon Nov 21, 2011 2:58 pm

Quoting VC10er (Reply 13):
I don't think DOH or DXB as being Asia



There is no other alternative. Not in Europe, not in Africa. Not an island. There is not a continent called Middle East.
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qf002
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RE: Why No Non-stops From Asia To GRU? (plus)

Mon Nov 21, 2011 3:40 pm

Quoting incitatus (Reply 22):
There is no other alternative. Not in Europe, not in Africa. Not an island. There is not a continent called Middle East.

Asia isn't referred to as a continent in this discussion, but rather as a region. In terms of regions, Asia is vastly different compared with the Middle East.
 
leftyboarder
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RE: Why No Non-stops From Asia To GRU? (plus)

Mon Nov 21, 2011 3:45 pm

Quoting qf002 (Reply 23):
Asia isn't referred to as a continent in this discussion, but rather as a region. In terms of regions, Asia is vastly different compared with the Middle East.

Well I always thought Asia was the continent, and South Asia, Southeast Asia, Central Asia and so on were regions. That is like saying Europe is a region in Europe.
 
FlyingHollander
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RE: Why No Non-stops From Asia To GRU? (plus)

Mon Nov 21, 2011 3:50 pm

Quoting incitatus (Reply 22):
There is no other alternative. Not in Europe, not in Africa. Not an island. There is not a continent called Middle East.

Off course DXB and DOH are in Asia.

However, Asia is so spread out that the Middle East (lets say TLV) and East Asia (lets say NRT) are complete different markets in aviation. For example: TLV is only a 4hour flight away for most of Europe, NRT however, is a half a day of flying. This is why usually at least the ME is defined as a separate region.

Back to to the question asked: The fact that LHR-SYD isn't operated nonstop pretty much says it all. In this day and age we don't have suitable aircraft for these kind of ultra ultra long haul flights.
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airbazar
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RE: Why No Non-stops From Asia To GRU? (plus)

Mon Nov 21, 2011 4:59 pm

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 18):
Well, Panama technically isn't.

Ahahah, oops. The coffee hadn't kicked in yet. I meant to say Paraguay.

Quoting steex (Reply 21):
As others have mentioned, Panama is not in South America (but rather North America), so be careful about how demeaning you are toward the OP.

Regardless, when I replied indicating that there aren't any non-stops, I was replying to the spirit of his question rather than the letter. He only mentioned eastern Asian airlines, so I addressed the question as such.

I wasn't being demeaning, simply stating a fact. The OP mentioned SQ which is NOT and Eastern Asian airline. As someone who's lived in Singapore I'm pretty sure it is in Southeast Asia.

But back to the topic at heand. No current commercial aircraft can make money flying non-stop between eastern Asia and GRU.
 
Markam
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RE: Why No Non-stops From Asia To GRU? (plus)

Mon Nov 21, 2011 7:10 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 17):
Panama is not in South America

I'm afraid that Panama is indeed NOT in South America. It is in Central America, which if one has to choose is usually considered part of North America, NOT South America.

Edit:

Quoting airbazar (Reply 26):
Ahahah, oops. The coffee hadn't kicked in yet. I meant to say Paraguay.

Just saw your correction, glad that the coffee kicked in!  Big grin

[Edited 2011-11-21 11:12:55]
 
staralliance85
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RE: Why No Non-stops From Asia To GRU? (plus)

Mon Nov 21, 2011 8:23 pm

At the moment, the stops in Europe and North America are sufficient for flights from South America- Eastern Asia. Maybe we will see LANTAM start a GRU-LAX-NRT route like Varig, back in the day.
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incitatus
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RE: Why No Non-stops From Asia To GRU? (plus)

Mon Nov 21, 2011 8:35 pm

Quoting leftyboarder (Reply 24):
That is like saying Europe is a region in Europe.



Europe is not a continent. Europe is a peninsula of Eurasia - same applies to Arabia / Middle East, or SE Asia.

Europe has continent status because of human activity.
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dellatorre
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RE: Why No Non-stops From Asia To GRU? (plus)

Mon Nov 21, 2011 9:55 pm

Moving on from the whole Asia, Middle East discussion, and focusing on the topic, I don't believe we're close to a non-stop flight from GRU to Asia (China, Korean, Japan, Thailand, Singapore etc.). In order for that to happen we would need a new aircraft design capable of flying much faster and with greater range. Something like 12 hour flight between GRU and NRT.
That would be a game changing airplane in the Aviation industry.

Right now, it is just a utopic.
 
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AirPacific747
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RE: Why No Non-stops From Asia To GRU? (plus)

Mon Nov 21, 2011 10:03 pm

Quoting incitatus (Reply 29):
Europe is not a continent. Europe is a peninsula of Eurasia - same applies to Arabia / Middle East, or SE Asia.

I've always been teached that there are 7 (seven) continents

Africa
Antarctica
Asia
Australia(Oceania)
Europe
North America
South America

Isn't it always just a matter of human activity no matter what you think is correct?
 
airbazar
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RE: Why No Non-stops From Asia To GRU? (plus)

Mon Nov 21, 2011 10:58 pm

Quoting Dellatorre (Reply 30):
Moving on from the whole Asia, Middle East discussion, and focusing on the topic, I don't believe we're close to a non-stop flight from GRU to Asia (China, Korean, Japan, Thailand, Singapore etc.). In order for that to happen we would need a new aircraft design capable of flying much faster and with greater range. Something like 12 hour flight between GRU and NRT.

I wouldn't bet against it. If SQ choses to transfer their A345 product to the B789 (all J class), they could conceivably fly non-stop SIN-GRU. SQ is the one airline that could make an all-business 789 subfleet work, for non-stop flights to NYC/LAX/GRU. In fact I think they almost have no choice but to do it in order to stay competitive in the growing S.American market.
 
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RE: Why No Non-stops From Asia To GRU? (plus)

Tue Nov 22, 2011 12:00 am

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 31):
I've always been teached that there are 7 (seven) continents

Lets not restart that argument please. What is a continent depends on where you live, where & when you were educated and what sort of definition you are using. There is NO one definition of "continent" that will satisfy everybody on this list or in the real world.

Gemuser

PS: AirPacific its "taught" not "teached". English inconsistency strikes again!
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Markam
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RE: Why No Non-stops From Asia To GRU? (plus)

Tue Nov 22, 2011 12:25 am

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 31):
I've always been teached that there are 7 (seven) continents

Africa
Antarctica
Asia
Australia(Oceania)
Europe
North America
South America

Isn't it always just a matter of human activity no matter what you think is correct?

Not that it matters, but since you mention this, the count of continents is indeed not so clear cut, e.g. in some educational systems it is taught that there are not 7 continents, but 6 (North America and South America are merged into America). From a maximum of 7 to a minimum of 4, you take your pick.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continent#Number_of_continents
 
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RE: Why No Non-stops From Asia To GRU? (plus)

Tue Nov 22, 2011 12:26 am

Quoting airbazar (Reply 17):

I did not and never did intend for this post to devolve into accurate lines of what is factually Asia or how sometimes regions of the world are carved up. I am very happy to hear about other seemingly impossible to fly P2P destinations as they relate to GRU. I have only been to Dubai twice in my life, but as I mentioned in one of my posts, I often have to do "triangular" ultra long haul trips. I live more than half my life in NYC and the rest in Rio (actually not GRU) but given I go to SIN, NRT, HKG often, I was hoping, in the sake of the new amazing jet liners, that I could do Asia in one shot. Forgive me for not originally counting the Middle East. I am in marketing and almost all global clients call that region (right or wrong) EEMA (Eastern Europe, Middle East and Africa) Frankly I don't know when it happened but Oz seems a relatively new and popular moniker for a region. If I offended anyone I can assure you 100% that I didn't mean to.

For all to be clear from GRU and airplanes that can fly P2P ....are there, will there be, if so why not...can a profitable flight make it to Asia or beyond. I have learned a lot.

And just for good measure: going and seeing the tails you see today at GRU vs just 5 years ago is heartening. Totally awesome sight!
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dellatorre
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RE: Why No Non-stops From Asia To GRU? (plus)

Tue Nov 22, 2011 12:45 am

Quoting VC10er (Reply 35):
For all to be clear from GRU and airplanes that can fly P2P ....are there, will there be, if so why not...can a profitable flight make it to Asia or beyond. I have learned a lot.

I guess the proposal for such a topic was achieved then........
 
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RE: Why No Non-stops From Asia To GRU? (plus)

Tue Nov 22, 2011 1:38 am

Quoting Dellatorre (Reply 36):

Sim, Obrigado!
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Motorhussy
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RE: Why No Non-stops From Asia To GRU? (plus)

Tue Nov 22, 2011 2:39 am

Quoting incitatus (Reply 29):
Europe is not a continent. Europe is a peninsula of Eurasia - same applies to Arabia / Middle East, or SE Asia.

Oh come on now, it's widely accepted that the Occident and the Orient are separate continents divided by the geographic borders of the Caucasus and Ural Mountains and the Caspian, Black and Aegean seas. By your argument, India would be part of Australia/Oceania as it's on the same tectonic plate and the Middle East would be its own continent.

Back to topic, what passenger would ever want to be on board an aircraft non-stop for that amount of time in the confines of Economy class, which is where 80% of us travel.

Also, am looking forward to NZ starting flights to South America (any of SCL, EZE & GRU) and creating an alternative bridge between South America and East Asia as well as Australia. Bring on the 789.

Regards
MH
come visit the south pacific
 
LipeGIG
Posts: 5050
Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 7:33 am

RE: Why No Non-stops From Asia To GRU? (plus)

Tue Nov 22, 2011 4:26 am

The basic concept is the distance together with the lack of historical, business or language ties. As said, you can expect 110J flying SIN-NYC, but you would never expect that to Brazil.
As more one stop services become available (soon for example EK to GIG and TK to EZE), more the non-stop become even more impossible.

Quoting leonardoq (Reply 8):
if asia-gru is not possible, what about syd-gru nonstop? would it be feasible? is it much farther than any route in asia?

Limited business market.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 15):
That is actually false. Cities like Rio de Janeiro and Santiago both boast robust and growing financial and banking centers. Many well-known corporations have offices and are undergoing mega projects in the financial districts of these two cities and are also expanding their presence in places like Lima, Bogota, many others in Brasil

Agreed 100%
And they don't need to be financial centers to justify demand. Rio is the largest oil market in Latin America just behind Houston in the Americas and if it's not a financial center, it's an important financial city (i would say as Boston is related to investment funds, we would say Rio is on the same situation). Santiago is a core mining market, plus government and in some degree regional financial center.
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
User avatar
AirPacific747
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RE: Why No Non-stops From Asia To GRU? (plus)

Tue Nov 22, 2011 6:55 am

Quoting gemuser (Reply 33):
PS: AirPacific its "taught" not "teached". English inconsistency strikes again!

I actually thought of this after I posted, but went to bed, and didn't bother getting up again to correct the mistake. Sorry!  
 
777way
Posts: 6470
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RE: Why No Non-stops From Asia To GRU? (plus)

Tue Nov 22, 2011 10:49 am

Doha and Dubai are in West Asia to be precise.

Quoting leftyboarder (Reply 24):
Quoting qf002 (Reply 23):
Asia isn't referred to as a continent in this discussion, but rather as a region. In terms of regions, Asia is vastly different compared with the Middle East.

Well I always thought Asia was the continent, and South Asia, Southeast Asia, Central Asia and so on were regions. That is like saying Europe is a region in Europe.

Both are right.

While ME might be different to rest of Asia, but then each Asian region is vastly different to the other, South Asia for example is not like Central or East Asia, but has some similarity to Southeast Asia, Central Asia due to Russian influence is probably more European in nature in some aspects.

[Edited 2011-11-22 03:12:13]
 
airbazar
Posts: 7106
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RE: Why No Non-stops From Asia To GRU? (plus)

Tue Nov 22, 2011 8:37 pm

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 39):
The basic concept is the distance together with the lack of historical, business or language ties. As said, you can expect 110J flying SIN-NYC, but you would never expect that to Brazil.

Not from SIN, but I would be shocked if we don't have many more than 110J daily passnegers between NRT and GRU, or between HKG/PVG/PEK and GRU. I think the numbers are there, but ~10,000nm is indeed a very long route for today's airplanes. However, like I said, I would not be shocked to see SIN-GRU in a premium configured 789.
 
qf002
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RE: Why No Non-stops From Asia To GRU? (plus)

Wed Nov 23, 2011 3:54 am

Quoting airbazar (Reply 42):
However, like I said, I would not be shocked to see SIN-GRU in a premium configured 789.

The 789 being a 8,000-8,500nm aircraft... What you're suggesting is a flight that is 500nm longer than SIN-EWR using a plane that flies 500-1000nm less distance than the equipment SQ uses to EWR...
 
leonardoq
Posts: 56
Joined: Tue Nov 15, 2011 12:29 pm

RE: Why No Non-stops From Asia To GRU? (plus)

Wed Nov 23, 2011 6:20 am

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 39):

Quoting leonardoq (Reply 8):
if asia-gru is not possible, what about syd-gru nonstop? would it be feasible? is it much farther than any route in asia?

Limited business market.

are u sure? because i don't see EZE or SCL being a bigger market than GRU...
JJ, G3, QF, DJ, TG, LA, AR, EY, EK, LH, JQ, VY, TP, TZ, TR, AA
 
airbazar
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RE: Why No Non-stops From Asia To GRU? (plus)

Wed Nov 23, 2011 3:04 pm

Quoting qf002 (Reply 43):
The 789 being a 8,000-8,500nm aircraft... What you're suggesting is a flight that is 500nm longer than SIN-EWR using a plane that flies 500-1000nm less distance than the equipment SQ uses to EWR...

We haven't seen the 789 fly yet but I would be very surprised if the "baseline" 789 (or A359 for that matter), don't at least equal the range of the baseline A345. They were bought in part to replace the A345's. SQ's A345's can fly SIN-EWR because they only have 100 seats and carry no cargo. The B789/A359 should in theory be able to fly SIN-GRU if configured in an equally low density layout and no cargo, and cost a lot less to operate. Also keep in mind that you can fly SIN-GRU-SIN with a tail wind in both directions with just a minor deviation (400nm or so), by taking a slighty more northward route westbound and riding the tropical easterlies.
 
qf002
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RE: Why No Non-stops From Asia To GRU? (plus)

Thu Nov 24, 2011 3:14 am

Quoting airbazar (Reply 45):
We haven't seen the 789 fly yet but I would be very surprised if the "baseline" 789 (or A359 for that matter), don't at least equal the range of the baseline A345.

Boeing lists the range of the 789 as '8000-8500nm'. The A345, in a similar configuration, has a range of 9,000nm. Already potentially a 1000nm gap. Add the fact that the 788 has already fallen short (as of current frames, probable improvement as production ramps up) I'm extremely doubtful that the 789 will come even close to matching the A345. Boeing hasn't designed in to match the A345, and you don't accidentally stumble across a 9000nm plane.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 45):
They were bought in part to replace the A345's.

No way in hell is that true. The 789 is not a replacement for an A345 fleet that is used to the edge of it's abilities. The 789's would have been ordered for regional ops (replacing A333's) and maybe some long haul 772 replacements.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 45):
The B789/A359 should in theory be able to fly SIN-GRU if configured in an equally low density layout and no cargo, and cost a lot less to operate.

Nup. The A345 (with it's extra 1000nm range) can fly a flight 500nm shorter in that low density configuration. A 789 cannot fly further than an A345. And the flight you're proposing is longer, with a far less capable aircraft.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 45):
Also keep in mind that you can fly SIN-GRU-SIN with a tail wind in both directions with just a minor deviation (400nm or so), by taking a slighty more northward route westbound and riding the tropical easterlies.

Perhaps, but when you're running an all business operation you have to be certain that you can get where you're going without needing to stop for fuel. In any case, you're now suggesting a 10,400nm flight to be flown by an 8000nm plane... Sorry, but that's just madness.
 
dellatorre
Posts: 864
Joined: Sat May 13, 2000 2:50 pm

RE: Why No Non-stops From Asia To GRU? (plus)

Thu Nov 24, 2011 11:06 am

Quoting qf002 (Reply 46):
Perhaps, but when you're running an all business operation you have to be certain that you can get where you're going without needing to stop for fuel. In any case, you're now suggesting a 10,400nm flight to be flown by an 8000nm plane... Sorry, but that's just madness.

I agree!! NZ is another example of how the 788's range fell short of it's expectations. The airline was counting on it to fly directly to GRU, but looks like the aircraft's performance won't allow it to be done without compromising loads and cargo capacity.
 
AngMoh
Posts: 766
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2011 5:03 am

RE: Why No Non-stops From Asia To GRU? (plus)

Thu Nov 24, 2011 2:01 pm

Quoting qf002 (Reply 46):
Quoting airbazar (Reply 45):
We haven't seen the 789 fly yet but I would be very surprised if the "baseline" 789 (or A359 for that matter), don't at least equal the range of the baseline A345.

Boeing lists the range of the 789 as '8000-8500nm'. The A345, in a similar configuration, has a range of 9,000nm. Already potentially a 1000nm gap. Add the fact that the 788 has already fallen short (as of current frames, probable improvement as production ramps up) I'm extremely doubtful that the 789 will come even close to matching the A345. Boeing hasn't designed in to match the A345, and you don't accidentally stumble across a 9000nm plane.

The only planes available either in current fleets or for sale today which could fly these distances are A345 and 77L. Nothing coming is going to match this, simply because the demand is not there. No 78x or a35x which is currently being worked on as a realistic plane is capable of ULH. I expect the A345s in the SQ fleet for a very long time.

And even if the 789 was capable, it will never fly for SIN-GRU non-stop, because you can not make money on an average of 10 passengers per flight... (and now I am optimistic)

And for those who think the 789 will fly to Europe for SQ - I don't think it will happen because seating for a long haul SQ config on a 789 will result in about 180 seats (1-2-1 in J, 2-4-2 in Y). Even the much larger 77W has only 278 seats in SQ config. I think 789 will be regional only with the longest flight being 10-hours to New Zealand.
727 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739 739ER 742 743 744 752 762 772 773 77W A300 A310 A319 A320 A321 A332 A333 A343 A345 A346 A359 A388 DC-9 DC-10 MD11 MD81 MD82 MD87 F70 ERJ145 E175 E190 E195 ATR72 CRJ200 CRJ700 CRJ900 BAE146 RJ85
 
airbazar
Posts: 7106
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

RE: Why No Non-stops From Asia To GRU? (plus)

Thu Nov 24, 2011 2:32 pm

Quoting qf002 (Reply 46):
Boeing lists the range of the 789 as '8000-8500nm'. The A345, in a similar configuration, has a range of 9,000nm.

You are kidding right? The A345 can just barely fly the ~9,000nm between SIN-EWR with only 100 seats. SQ can't even outfit their F class product on the 345 or they won't make the range.

Quoting qf002 (Reply 46):
Nup. The A345 (with it's extra 1000nm range) can fly a flight 500nm shorter in that low density configuration. A 789 cannot fly further than an A345. And the flight you're proposing is longer, with a far less capable aircraft.

Longer? The block time would be almost identical due to favorable winds. EWR-SIN is hardly ever flown over the GC route in order to take advantage of those favorable winds. I think it would be really interesting to see a hypothetical flight plan for SIN-GRU on the current A345. It will be even more interesting to see one for the 789 or 359.

Quoting qf002 (Reply 46):
No way in hell is that true. The 789 is not a replacement for an A345 fleet that is used to the edge of it's abilities. The 789's would have been ordered for regional ops (replacing A333's) and maybe some long haul 772 replacements.

You're right, I stand corrected. Now that I think about it and according to the initial press releases, the A359 will replace the A345 and the B789 will be 2-class regional aircraft. Nevertheless, my argument remains the same regarding albeit using a low density A359 to replace the A345.

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