kl911
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AA MD83 Incidents Inflight. Question.

Mon Nov 21, 2011 7:11 pm

I just read this on Avherald. Two incidents with MD83's in a row.

Nov 19: AA2258, DFW - PIT , Engine flame out due to fuel starvation, needed to be shut down. N9677W

Nov 20: AA2266, PVR - ORD, Cabin pressure lost, emergency descent and diverted to Monterrey. N9405T


I am just wondering till what age its worth maintaining aircraft, no matter how well you maintain them, age will show sooner or later. Are the MD83's the ones being replaced by the new A319/321 order? How is the MD83 dispatch rate?
 
lhr380
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RE: AA MD83 Incidents Inflight. Question.

Mon Nov 21, 2011 7:16 pm

Quoting kl911 (Thread starter):
I am just wondering till what age its worth maintaining aircraft, no matter how well you maintain them, age will show sooner or later.

They have over 80 of them, and a plane will go tech now and then no matter if its new or old.
(The views on this site are my own and no one elses)
 
Western727
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RE: AA MD83 Incidents Inflight. Question.

Mon Nov 21, 2011 7:21 pm

Quoting lhr380 (Reply 1):
They have over 80 of them

I thought they had well over 100, perhaps even 200 of them?
Jack @ AUS
 
lhr380
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RE: AA MD83 Incidents Inflight. Question.

Mon Nov 21, 2011 7:23 pm

If we can trust wiki

126 MD82s
84 MD83s
(The views on this site are my own and no one elses)
 
AASTEW
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RE: AA MD83 Incidents Inflight. Question.

Mon Nov 21, 2011 7:23 pm

The 200 frames consist of both '82 and '83's.

AASTEW
 
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seabosdca
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RE: AA MD83 Incidents Inflight. Question.

Mon Nov 21, 2011 7:26 pm

Quoting kl911 (Thread starter):
Are the MD83's the ones being replaced by the new A319/321 order?

The MD-82s will probably go first as they are less capable and mostly older, subject to the timing of heavy checks.

Two relatively minor incidents in two days with a 200-aircraft fleet is hardly shocking.
 
roseflyer
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RE: AA MD83 Incidents Inflight. Question.

Mon Nov 21, 2011 7:30 pm

Some on here claim that an airplane can be maintained almost indefinitely. While there is no limit on airplanes in the United States, they do approach their design life as many AA MD80s are. Airplanes are designed for a certain lifetime. I don’t know what it is on the MD80, but I believe it is about 75,000 cycles. In the US maintenance programs can extend life beyond that but many of the systems start having degrading reliability since components that were designed to last the life of the airplane start failing more and more often. I also don't know AA's dispatch rate and it is really hard to provide a dispatch rate that is comparable to other airlines since each airline calculates it differently as there are different delays and weather, airport operations, boarding/baggage etc usually don't count in dispatch reliability.

AA has been quickly retiring MD80s as 737-800s are being delivered. Retirement rates are around 2 per month in line with 737 deliveries. AA is up to about 1988 build MD80s and newer, so the ones from the early 1980s have already been retired. The A319s will replace MD80s as well. AA is down to about 200 MD80s from about 360 when the merger with TWA was completed.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
Western727
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RE: AA MD83 Incidents Inflight. Question.

Mon Nov 21, 2011 7:38 pm

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 6):
AA has been quickly retiring MD80s

An AA without MD-80s...that will definitely take some getting used to after decades of being overdosed with such.  
Jack @ AUS
 
Burner71
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RE: AA MD83 Incidents Inflight. Question.

Mon Nov 21, 2011 8:59 pm

AA's Super 80's were always one of my favorites.
But the last 9 trips in a row for me have been delayed for one mechanical after another.

Last week I decided to take a quick vacation to the Poconos and took DFW-PHL......I knew when the front door never closed it was going to happen.
Sure enough the captain came on with the speech I'm getting used to now.

"Well we are all ready to go up here in the front, but unfortunately we have an indication that needs to be looked at. Sit back and we will let you know something in about 45 minutes."


Ugh, can't do it anymore. No more Super 80's for me.
 
kl911
Topic Author
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RE: AA MD83 Incidents Inflight. Question.

Tue Nov 22, 2011 1:51 pm

Quoting lhr380 (Reply 1):
They have over 80 of them, and a plane will go tech now and then no matter if its new or old.

Again one, have a look at Avherald, and you will see what I mean. I think AA has ordered the replacements too late and kept on flying the MD's for too long.


17 Nov AA1166 YYC - DFW , Tower observed sparks from the tailpipe of the left engine (JT8D). The crew declared emergency but kept the engine running, levelled off at 7000 feet and returned to Calgary's runway 34.

The Canadian TSB reported that an examination of the engine revealed internal metal debris. The engine is being replaced and will be stripped for thorough examination. A report is to follow.
 
NBGSkyGod
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RE: AA MD83 Incidents Inflight. Question.

Tue Nov 22, 2011 3:52 pm

All of these incidents sound like engine system problems rather than airframe related. The inflight shutdown after starvation, could be caused by frozen or otherwise fouled fuel lines, the pressurization loss could be a result of a bleed problem, and the last incident is a relatively common problem in any engine, heck helicopters have a warning light devoted to the problem. So the MD-82/3 is still a viable airframe, just AA's maintenance practices may need to be reviewed.
Pilots are idiots, who at any given moment will attempt to kill themselves or others.
 
LAXdude1023
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RE: AA MD83 Incidents Inflight. Question.

Tue Nov 22, 2011 3:54 pm

Theyre in the process of replaceing them. What the complaint? They have as much problems with them as DL does with the DC 9.
It is what it is...
 
ripcordd
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RE: AA MD83 Incidents Inflight. Question.

Tue Nov 22, 2011 4:51 pm

Really DL has problems with their 80's? I really thought this was an AA problem only cause no other airline could possible have problems with their DC-9'S.
 
N62NA
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RE: AA MD83 Incidents Inflight. Question.

Wed Nov 23, 2011 6:34 am

Quoting Western727 (Reply 7):

An AA without MD-80s...that will definitely take some getting used to after decades of being overdosed with such.

We've been AA MD80-less here in MIA for many years now. 
 
boeing767mech
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RE: AA MD83 Incidents Inflight. Question.

Sat Nov 26, 2011 6:58 am

Quoting kl911 (Thread starter):
Nov 19: AA2258, DFW - PIT , Engine flame out due to fuel starvation, needed to be shut down. N9677W

This had NOTHING to due with the age of the airplane or the type of airplane. It had more to do with maintenance issues and in my opinion the person that last worked on the component or area that caused this incidents should loose there A/P ticket and be fined the cost of repair to this airplane. There is NO excuse for what happened to this airplane

David
Never under-estimate the predictably of stupidty
 
Flaps
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RE: AA MD83 Incidents Inflight. Question.

Sat Nov 26, 2011 2:49 pm

Quoting boeing767mech (Reply 14):
It had more to do with maintenance issues and in my opinion the person that last worked on the component or area that caused this incidents should loose there A/P ticket and be fined the cost of repair to this airplane. There is NO excuse for what happened to this airplane

A bit dramatic, no?
 
yeelep
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RE: AA MD83 Incidents Inflight. Question.

Sat Nov 26, 2011 10:41 pm

Quoting boeing767mech (Reply 14):

So you don't know the component or area the caused the fuel starvation, but your'e ready to hang a mechanic. Please don't get a job with the Friendly Aviation Administration.
 
mmedford
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RE: AA MD83 Incidents Inflight. Question.

Sat Nov 26, 2011 10:47 pm

Quoting yeelep (Reply 16):
So you don't know the component or area the caused the fuel starvation, but your'e ready to hang a mechanic. Please don't get a job with the Friendly Aviation Administration.

erm; he works for AA MX.... probably has access to internal information; we don't.
ILS = It'll Land Somewhere
 
yeelep
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RE: AA MD83 Incidents Inflight. Question.

Sat Nov 26, 2011 11:35 pm

I'm aware of his user profile. However, based on what he typed, he gave no indication of knowing the cause.
 
mmedford
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RE: AA MD83 Incidents Inflight. Question.

Sat Nov 26, 2011 11:49 pm

Quoting yeelep (Reply 18):
I'm aware of his user profile. However, based on what he typed, he gave no indication of knowing the cause.

Did we read the same reply?

Sounds like he knows something went wrong; but can't say, due to it being an internal issue at work.
ILS = It'll Land Somewhere
 
yeelep
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RE: AA MD83 Incidents Inflight. Question.

Sun Nov 27, 2011 12:01 am

Quoting mmedford (Reply 19):
Quoting boeing767mech (Reply 14):
the person that last worked on the component or area that caused this incident


Doesn't read like he knows to me if it isn't even narrowed down to a component or area. Of course he could be purposely vague. Unless he states he knows the reason but cannot discuss it, I will stick to not blaming a mechanic without substantiation.
 
boeing767mech
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RE: AA MD83 Incidents Inflight. Question.

Sun Nov 27, 2011 12:49 am

Quoting yeelep (Reply 20):
Unless he states he knows the reason but cannot discuss it

Bingo....... Sometimes my little employer takes action to people airing the dirty laundry for a incident that is still being looked at by the FAA and NTSB. And yes it was caused by a mechanic. There is NO excuse for this to have happened besides someone being lazy and not doing a COMPLETE look in a area before is was closed and sealed up.
Never under-estimate the predictably of stupidty
 
Dalmd88
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RE: AA MD83 Incidents Inflight. Question.

Sun Nov 27, 2011 2:57 am

Two incidents on two days for a carrier the size of AA isn't abnormal. They must fly 2500 flights a day. With their huge fleet of MD80's you are going to see engines with metal in the tailpipe once and a while. I bet they have on average 3-4 operational difficulties a day. That is engine shutdowns, mechanical diversions , emergency landings. Almost all of those don't make the news. Some are only indication problems, others are the metal in the tailpipe.

All airlines have these incidents. We all strive to keep the rate as low as we can, but airplanes stop working sometimes. You can't catch everything before it fails, and as one instructor in school always said, "there are people in aviation, and you know how people are". He usually was referencing getting ripped off, but it holds true for mistakes also. The people involved can make mistakes. None of us are perfect all the time, we try to be, hopefully the system catches those mistakes before we become the news story.

I can't see the incident rate for AA, but I bet the MD80 fleet is about average for the AA domestic fleets. I would have no problem flying around on one for the next year straight.
 
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American 767
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RE: AA MD83 Incidents Inflight. Question.

Sun Nov 27, 2011 5:07 am

Quoting Western727 (Reply 7):
An AA without MD-80s...that will definitely take some getting used to after decades of being overdosed with such.

The same used to be said about the 727. Back in the old days when the US major airlines had large fleets of 727s, people could not imagine getting used to the US airline industry without the 727. AA flew the 727 for 38 years, from 1964 to 2002, and they will have flown the MD-80 for about the same, from the mid 80s to the late 10s. But yes I somehow agree, it will feel weird in the beginning of next decade to see DFW without Super 80s, but afterward we'll get used to see DFW with A319s and A321s.

Ben Soriano
Ben Soriano
 
dirtyfrankd
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RE: AA MD83 Incidents Inflight. Question.

Mon Nov 28, 2011 1:26 am

I fly on AA almost every week and have had my fair share of flights on MD-80s. I have to say, my experiences on the MD-80s are mostly positive. First of all, the sound of those Pratt & Whitney's at full thrust is nothing short of sublime. Also, the MD-80s are FAR more comfortable than the AA 737s, especially the 737s in new configuration.

I know this has pretty much absolutely nothing to do with the OP's post, which was completely valid, but I just wanted to add my 2 cents.
 
United727
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RE: AA MD83 Incidents Inflight. Question.

Mon Nov 28, 2011 3:15 am

Quoting American 767 (Reply 23):
The same used to be said about the 727. Back in the old days when the US major airlines had large fleets of 727s, people could not imagine getting used to the US airline industry without the 727.

Outside of AA, there is NO similarity to the 727 retirements we saw 8-9 years ago. Unlike 2002 and 2003 when the beloved 727 disappeared from US Passenger airways nearly completely, the "DC-9 (M80) type rating" will still reign plentiful with other US carriers for years to come (in the form of the MD-87/88/90/95/717) (i.e. DL, FL and G4 come to mind). There will be plenty of the "Mad Dogs" to ride on, photograph, and yes, discuss on this very forum for what, another decade perhaps?

Yes, I realize this may be a sad transition alike for AA airline professionals, FA's, PAX, MX??? and "foamers" (opps, I mean aviation affecianados, much like myself) that have followed the Super 80 and its variants over their years of service at AA, but unlike the 727, this is not the immediate end for all US Passenger operations of these particular types.
 
TrijetsRMissed
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RE: AA MD83 Incidents Inflight. Question.

Mon Nov 28, 2011 8:28 pm

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 6):
AA has been quickly retiring MD80s as 737-800s are being delivered. Retirement rates are around 2 per month in line with 737 deliveries. AA is up to about 1988 build MD80s and newer, so the ones from the early 1980s have already been retired. The A319s will replace MD80s as well. AA is down to about 200 MD80s from about 360 when the merger with TWA was completed.

There are actually some frames from '85-'86 that are still in service. At the current retirement rate, it will take AA another 8+ years to phase the fleet out. AA would like to increase the rate if possible, but we may even see NB deliveries deferred if the airline continues in a downward state.

Quoting American 767 (Reply 23):
AA flew the 727 for 38 years, from 1964 to 2002, and they will have flown the MD-80 for about the same, from the mid 80s to the late 10s.

AA did not have 200 727s in the early 90s in the fleet. Therefore, it's possible the MD-80 will outlast the 38 years.
There's nothing quite like a trijet.
 
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American 767
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RE: AA MD83 Incidents Inflight. Question.

Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:21 pm

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 26):
AA did not have 200 727s in the early 90s in the fleet

In the late 80s, they had 164 of them. 125 of the 200 Series and 39 of the 100 Series. But I do believe that at one time they had more than 39 of the 100 Series, so the total number of the 727s both variants operated by American in its history may be close to 200 frames (180ish or so). Remember during the 80s, DFW was 727 heaven.
But yes you're right, in the early 90s they had already begun to phase out the type starting with the 100 Series which were gone by 1993/1994.

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 26):
Therefore, it's possible the MD-80 will outlast the 38 years.

If the price of jet fuel goes down, yes. In order for the MD-80 fleet to last 38 years like the 727 fleet did, the MD-80 would have to stay in the fleet till 2022.

Ben Soriano
Ben Soriano
 
Viscount724
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RE: AA MD83 Incidents Inflight. Question.

Tue Nov 29, 2011 2:13 am

Quoting American 767 (Reply 27):
In the late 80s, they had 164 of them. 125 of the 200 Series and 39 of the 100 Series. But I do believe that at one time they had more than 39 of the 100 Series, so the total number of the 727s both variants operated by American in its history may be close to 200 frames (180ish or so).

I show 184 total 727s operated by AA. 59 -100s and 125 -200s.
 
TrijetsRMissed
Posts: 1981
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RE: AA MD83 Incidents Inflight. Question.

Tue Nov 29, 2011 2:34 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 28):
I show 184 total 727s operated by AA. 59 -100s and 125 -200s.



Can you confirm when the 727-200 entered service with AA? I believe it was 1968 or '69. How about the 200ADV?

If we compare MD-82/727-200 and MD-83/727-200ADV, I think the Mad Dog has a good chance of outlasting the timeless tri-jet, in number of years.
There's nothing quite like a trijet.

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