AAIL86
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AA Makes A319 And A321 Selection Official

Mon Nov 21, 2011 9:11 pm

No real surprise here as this had been widely speculated here and elsewhere. Still, interesting to see the progression of this order.


AMERICAN STRENGTHENS FLEET PERFORMANCE AND EFFICIENCY



American today announced another milestone in its fleet transformation plans by selecting the Airbus A319 and A321 variants to be a part of its A320 family fleet order, which was announced in July 2011. These new aircraft, which American expects to begin taking delivery of starting in 2013, build upon the airline's efforts to enhance its fleet in order to be more fuel efficient and provide customers with a state-of-the-art travel experience.

The A319 aircraft will be powered by the CFM56-5B engine from CFM International, a joint venture between General Electric and Snecma. The A321 aircraft will be equipped with V2500-A5 engines from International Aero Engines (IAE), a joint venture between Pratt & Whitney, Rolls-Royce, MTU and JAEC. These engines were selected to enhance the operational performance and fuel efficiency of American's new Airbus fleet. The Airbus A320 family aircraft offer a 35 percent reduction in fuel cost per seat versus the MD-80 and a 12 percent and 15 percent fuel cost reduction per seat, respectively, versus the 757 and 767-200.

These 130 current-generation A319 and A321 aircraft are fully financed through lease transactions. The financial terms and conditions of the CFM56-5B and V2500-A5 engine purchase have not been disclosed.

As announced in July 2011, American plans to take delivery of 130 current-generation aircraft from the Airbus A320 family starting in 2013. American exercised its rights to convert its delivery positions to the A319 and A321 variants.

Beginning in 2017, American expects to begin taking delivery of 130 aircraft from the A320neo (New Engine Option) family featuring next-generation technology. The new aircraft are about 15 percent more fuel efficient than today's models. American is scheduled to be the first network airline in the U.S. to deploy this new technology. Engine selection for the A320neo family aircraft will be made in the future.

The Airbus aircraft feature cabin interiors with increased overhead storage, reduced noise and ambient lighting options.

American is also strengthening its Boeing fleet, with plans to acquire 200 additional aircraft from the 737 family, with options for another 100 737 family aircraft. As part of the Boeing agreement, American plans to take delivery of 100 aircraft from Boeing's current 737NG family starting in 2013, including three 737-800 options that had been exercised as of July 1, 2011. American also expects to acquire 100 of Boeing's next-generation 737 MAX aircraft, which will be powered by CFM International LEAP-1B engines. The new-engine variant is expected to have 10 to 12 percent lower fuel burn than current 737s.

American's most recent deliveries of the 737-800, with 160 seats, include the all-new Boeing Sky Interior, offering larger overhead bins that pivot down and out similar to those on the Boeing 787 Dreamliner, a contemporary feeling of spaciousness, and variable LED lighting options for cabin ambience.

American has plans to acquire 42 state-of-the-art 787 Dreamliners, which are currently scheduled to be delivered starting in late 2014. The Company also has firm orders for 15 777 widebody aircraft, which are scheduled for delivery in 2012 through 2016.

Source: American Airlines
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Stitch
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AA Makes A319 And A321 Selection Official

Mon Nov 21, 2011 9:13 pm

So A319-100 and A321-200s bracketing their large 737-800 fleet. Makes sense, frankly.

Then A319-100neo, A321-200neo and 737-8 down the road?
 
dsuairptman
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AA Makes A319 And A321 Selection Official

Mon Nov 21, 2011 9:51 pm

Any early word on the seating config for the 319 and 321
GEAUX SAINTS!
 
lax777lr
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AA Makes A319 And A321 Selection Official

Mon Nov 21, 2011 9:55 pm

A321 is now all but certain to be the transcon 762 replacement
 
deltaflyertoo
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AA Makes A319 And A321 Selection Official

Mon Nov 21, 2011 10:17 pm

ANyword on the IFE for the AIrbuses? I.E. ptvs, pop down LCDs or nothing?
 
ROSWELL41
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AA Makes A319 And A321 Selection Official

Mon Nov 21, 2011 10:24 pm

Interesting that they chose cfm engines for the a319 and iae engines for the 321. Anyone know why?
 
AAIL86
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AA Makes A319 And A321 Selection Official

Mon Nov 21, 2011 10:35 pm

Quoting lax777lr (Reply 3):
A321 is now all but certain to be the transcon 762 replacement

Looking like that could be a possibility.

Quoting deltaflyertoo (Reply 4):
ANyword on the IFE for the AIrbuses? I.E. ptvs, pop down LCDs or nothing?

They're almost certainly going to be fitted out like the new 738s, WiFi and powerports. If AA decides to use a 321 subfleet for transcon routes, those would no doubt get IFE in the premium cabins and perhaps in Y.
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lesismore
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AA Makes A319 And A321 Selection Official

Mon Nov 21, 2011 11:05 pm

Quoting lax777lr (Reply 3):
A321 is now all but certain to be the transcon 762 replacement

I will miss those 762's. I am curious and interested as to how AA will configure their A321's (three-class, lie-flat in B/F, MRTC a la UA p.s., personal IFE). Exciting times ahead for AA!
I'm a success today because I had a friend who believed in me and I didn't have the heart to let him down. - Abe Lincoln
 
warreng24
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AA Makes A319 And A321 Selection Official

Mon Nov 21, 2011 11:06 pm

Quoting AAIL86 (Thread starter):
The A319 aircraft will be powered by the CFM56-5B engine from CFM International, a joint venture between General Electric and Snecma. The A321 aircraft will be equipped with V2500-A5 engines from International Aero Engines (IAE), a joint venture between Pratt & Whitney, Rolls-Royce, MTU and JAEC.

Any ideas why the split engine order?

I would have thought that given an already sizeable fleet of CFM-powered 738's (and now CFM-powered A319's), AA would have also gotten CFM-powered A321's.
 
Dtw757
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AA Makes A319 And A321 Selection Official

Mon Nov 21, 2011 11:21 pm

source American Airlines

Quoting warreng24 (Reply 8):
Any ideas why the split engine order?

Based on the respective strengths of each engine, financial considerations and American's operational requirements, AA has elected to dual source the engines for the Airbus A320 Classic aircraft fleet. The CFM56-5B/7 engines will benefit the A319 from fuel savings and provide operating cost advantages versus our current narrowbody fleet. Additionally, the V2533 engines for the A321 offer fuel and operating cost advantages that will benefit the variety of markets that the aircraft will serve.

Source American Airlines
721,2,732,3,4,5,G,8,9,741,2,3,4,752,3,762,3,4,772,3,788,D93,5,M80,D10,M11,L10,100,AB6,319,20,21,332,3,346,388,146,CR2,7,
 
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seabosdca
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AA Makes A319 And A321 Selection Official

Mon Nov 21, 2011 11:30 pm

Quoting dtw757 (Reply 9):
Based on the respective strengths of each engine, financial considerations and American's operational requirements, AA has elected to dual source the engines for the Airbus A320 Classic aircraft fleet. The CFM56-5B/7 engines will benefit the A319 from fuel savings and provide operating cost advantages versus our current narrowbody fleet. Additionally, the V2533 engines for the A321 offer fuel and operating cost advantages that will benefit the variety of markets that the aircraft will serve.

Translated into English, I expect this means AA likes the CFM's fuel and maintenance cost advantages for the A319 application, but appreciates the V2500's additional grunt in the A321 application. This is a big enough fleet of aircraft that splitting the engine order shouldn't cause any trouble.
 
laca773
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AA Makes A319 And A321 Selection Official

Tue Nov 22, 2011 1:23 am

Quoting dtw757 (Reply 9):
Based on the respective strengths of each engine, financial considerations and American's operational requirements, AA has elected to dual source the engines for the Airbus A320 Classic aircraft fleet. The CFM56-5B/7 engines will benefit the A319 from fuel savings and provide operating cost advantages versus our current narrowbody fleet. Additionally, the V2533 engines for the A321 offer fuel and operating cost advantages that will benefit the variety of markets that the aircraft will serve.
Quoting warreng24 (Reply 8):
Any ideas why the split engine order?

I would have thought that given an already sizeable fleet of CFM-powered 738's (and now CFM-powered A319's), AA would have also gotten CFM-powered A321's.

The A321 received new engines several years ago when they updated the A321 with better and increased performance/range. US was one of the first to receive these new A321s which are vital to their PHL transcon routes as well as out of their PHX hub. If they hadn't updated the A321 with these more powerful engines, the A321 would have continued to struggle to perform the required transcons from PHL/CLT.

Quoting lesismore (Reply 7):

I will miss those 762's. I am curious and interested as to how AA will configure their A321's (three-class, lie-flat in B/F, MRTC a la UA p.s., personal IFE). Exciting times ahead for AA!

I will also miss the 762s. I have flown on plenty of them. In the end, they served very specific markets.

AA will have to be very careful about how the configure the new A321s if they are to be used on their Flagship JFK-LAX/SFO routes. I don't see how they will be able to fly those birds on a transcon nonstop fitted with First Suites, specialized J seat units. Y won't be the issue, it will be the premium cabins. It will be interesting to see what they do.

I think we'll see AA open routes like LAX-BDL up with the A319s as they will be more economical to operate with fewer passengers over the 757/738.
 
MSPNWA
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AA Makes A319 And A321 Selection Official

Tue Nov 22, 2011 1:32 am

I'm still a little surprised that AA has gone with the A319. Shortened, higher CASM models like the A319 haven't been a popular trend lately. It feels like an obligatory smaller-capacity plane order rather than the best economical move.
 
ATL
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AA Makes A319 And A321 Selection Official

Tue Nov 22, 2011 1:48 am

Those AA birds should look great with the American Stripe livery. I gotta say though, their decision to go for Airbus was a huge shocker to me, and it's still so hard to believe. If AA wasn't in such financial trouble, would they have picked an all Boeing order? I feel as if this new opening to airbus was due to AMR feeling like they needed to do something drastic to cut down fuel costs, such as switching to a whole new breed of airliners by getting A32XNEO aircrafts.
 
Motorhussy
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AA Makes A319 And A321 Selection Official

Tue Nov 22, 2011 2:22 am

Quoting ATL (Reply 13):
I feel as if this new opening to airbus was due to AMR feeling like they needed to do something drastic to cut down fuel costs, such as switching to a whole new breed of airliners by getting A32XNEO aircrafts.

Yeah something really drastic like making a sound business decision.
come visit the south pacific
 
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seabosdca
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AA Makes A319 And A321 Selection Official

Tue Nov 22, 2011 2:30 am

Quoting ATL (Reply 13):
this new opening to airbus was due to AMR feeling like they needed to do something drastic to cut down fuel costs, such as switching to a whole new breed of airliners by getting A32XNEO aircrafts.

Substitute "such as replacing the MD-80 fleet as fast as possible, faster than either maker could do it alone" and you'd be on the right track.
 
laca773
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AA Makes A319 And A321 Selection Official

Tue Nov 22, 2011 3:10 am

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 12):
I'm still a little surprised that AA has gone with the A319. Shortened, higher CASM models like the A319 haven't been a popular trend lately. It feels like an obligatory smaller-capacity plane order rather than the best economical move.

You're correct in some aspects, but at the same time, you'll find an a/c like the A319 will have better economics than the A320s in markets such as LAX-BDL, or LAX-YUL where the demand doesn't dictate a 160+ seat a/c and where you can fly nonstop versus having to divert for fuel with strong headwinds going westbound in the Fall/Winter. In other words, it's a good a/c for thin, longer routes.
 
ferminbrif
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AA Makes A319 And A321 Selection Official

Tue Nov 22, 2011 3:14 am

Quoting lax777lr (Reply 3):
A321 is now all but certain to be the transcon 762 replacement


Somehow that´s right but there´s nothing as good as traveling in a wide body because narrow body planes when crowded seems to be kinda claustrophobic.
It seems to me that fuel efficiency is the most important issue
 
NWAROOSTER
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AA Makes A319 And A321 Selection Official

Tue Nov 22, 2011 3:48 am

Due to American Airlines precarious financial position, Airbus must be willing to take the risk of selling aircraft to struggling American Airlines.
Airbus must figure it is worth the risk to gain another United States airline.   
Procrastination Is The Theft Of Time.......
 
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DeltaMD90
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AA Makes A319 And A321 Selection Official

Tue Nov 22, 2011 4:08 am

Quoting NWAROOSTER (Reply 18):

Due to American Airlines precarious financial position, Airbus must be willing to take the risk of selling aircraft to struggling American Airlines.
Airbus must figure it is worth the risk to gain another United States airline.   

There has to be something built in to protect Airbus. I'm not anti-AA, but they are in a baaaad situation and it would be stupid for Airbus to not have something planned
Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
 
astuteman
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AA Makes A319 And A321 Selection Official

Tue Nov 22, 2011 5:20 am

Quoting NWAROOSTER (Reply 18):
Due to American Airlines precarious financial position, Airbus must be willing to take the risk of selling aircraft to struggling American Airlines.

I'm not sure quite how you managed to miss the large quantity of Boeings also on order here in the OP.......

Seems Boeing are willing to take the risk too...

Rgds
 
irelayer
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AA Makes A319 And A321 Selection Official

Tue Nov 22, 2011 6:08 am

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 10):
Translated into English, I expect this means AA likes the CFM's fuel and maintenance cost advantages for the A319 application, but appreciates the V2500's additional grunt in the A321 application. This is a big enough fleet of aircraft that splitting the engine order shouldn't cause any trouble.

Aren't airframe and engine purchases financed separately? Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if they got really good incentives to just split everything, in bulk (hence the split between the two engines, and the split between the two narrowbody aircraft families). With such a stupendously massive order I think everyone wanted a slice of the bank's money.

It's funny...just a few years ago the name of the game was fleet standardization and rationalization. Now it seems to be the opposite. Whether through mergers or new aircraft purchases, everyone is ordering 787 and A350, 747-8 and A380, 737MAX and A320NEO.

-IR
 
LV
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AA Makes A319 And A321 Selection Official

Tue Nov 22, 2011 6:16 am

I am scratching my head about why AA wants the A319. I mean it has less seats for about the same fuel burn. It seems like it would have a higher CASM than a 320.... I mean is the plan just to use them on thin routes that need really good take off performance... like some of the Central and South America routes out of MIA?
 
akizidy214
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AA Makes A319 And A321 Selection Official

Tue Nov 22, 2011 7:24 am

I can think of a slew of routes that the A319 can be used on while taking advantage of less seats to maximize .

DFW-MCI,IND, SAL, OMA, HSV, CLE, CCS

ORD - PDX, IAH, DCA - Im not familiar with this market but it seems ORD and DFW will get a majority

MIA- SEA, AUS, SAN, PIT.

Just a few off the top of my head and Im sure some CRJ routes could go 319 vs CRJ.
DCA
 
r2rho
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AA Makes A319 And A321 Selection Official

Tue Nov 22, 2011 8:54 am

What is the breakdown of A319's and A321's? The original order was for 130 A320 "family" aircraft, without specifying subtypes. Will there be any A320's at all or will the 738 take over that size class exclusively?

Quoting AAIL86 (Thread starter):
The A319 aircraft will be powered by the CFM56-5B engine from CFM International, a joint venture between General Electric and Snecma. The A321 aircraft will be equipped with V2500-A5 engines from International Aero Engines (IAE),

How odd, with a large A319 & 738 CFM fleet one would not have expected IAE in there. However it is often said that CFM56 does better on short haul while the IAE V2500 is better on longer routes. So this seems to be the confirmation that the A321s will be doing transcons, and AA thinks the efficiency advantage of the V2500 on longer sectors outweighs the maintenance commonality advantage of having a single engine type. Interesting...
 
DALCE
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AA Makes A319 And A321 Selection Official

Tue Nov 22, 2011 9:04 am

LH has the same engine choices for their 32S fleets. 319/320 are CFM powered whereas the 321 has the IAE's under the wings.
*Perhaps they just copied that since LH is making money and AA wants to do the same  *

sarcasm off 
flown: F50,F70,CR1,CR2,CR9,E75,143,AR8,AR1,733,735,736,73G,738,753,744,77W,788,319,320,321,333,AB6.
 
jimbobjoe
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AA Makes A319 And A321 Selection Official

Tue Nov 22, 2011 11:19 am

Quoting NWAROOSTER (Reply 18):
Due to American Airlines precarious financial position, Airbus must be willing to take the risk of selling aircraft to struggling American Airlines.

I should think that risk is small to non-existent. Considering that there is a wait for narrow body jets now going into the 3-4 year range (at least), Airbus should have no problems finding a home for planes that AA ordered but may not be able to buy.
 
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Stitch
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AA Makes A319 And A321 Selection Official

Tue Nov 22, 2011 12:35 pm

Quoting astuteman (Reply 20):
Seems Boeing are willing to take the risk too...

Indications Boeing were not, but when Airbus made AA a deal that looks to take into account an AA bankruptcy reorganization filing, Boeing had little choice but to become a willing partner.
 
mafi29
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RE: AA Makes A319 And A321 Selection Official

Tue Nov 22, 2011 1:37 pm

Is there any information how these 130 A319 and A321 are divided between the two types? More A319 or more A321?
I would expect more A319 as they'll serve more as a MD-82/83 (of which AA has more than 200) replacement, while they "only"   have 120 B752. I would also expect the gain in fuel efficiency is higher between the MD-82/83 and the A319 than between the B752 and the A321.
Or am I mistaken here?

edited for typo

[Edited 2011-11-22 05:38:56]
 
aaexecplat
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RE: AA Makes A319 And A321 Selection Official

Tue Nov 22, 2011 1:48 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 27):
Indications Boeing were not, but when Airbus made AA a deal that looks to take into account an AA bankruptcy reorganization filing, Boeing had little choice but to become a willing partner.

Really? Mind ponying up a source for your claim that Boeing was not interested in bidding? My understanding was that they didn't know there was an order in the works, until AA came to them at the 11th hour with a request for a counter offer to Airbus'. And even then, if Boeing had thought the risk of a potential order outweighed the potential gains, they should have abstained from submitting the proposal. If they submitted while internal docs show that they thought they should not have, they are widen open for a slew of shareholder lawsuits for breach of their fiduciary duties....
 
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seabosdca
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RE: AA Makes A319 And A321 Selection Official

Tue Nov 22, 2011 2:01 pm

Quoting r2rho (Reply 24):
AA thinks the efficiency advantage of the V2500 on longer sectors outweighs the maintenance commonality advantage of having a single engine type. Interesting...

The V2500 also has a higher maximum thrust rating. They may be expecting to use these birds out of LGA, DCA, or other runway-challenged airports, and want every ounce of go they can get.

Quoting laca773 (Reply 11):
AA will have to be very careful about how the configure the new A321s if they are to be used on their Flagship JFK-LAX/SFO routes.

It's pretty simple, IMO... UA's p.s. reconfiguration is pointing the way. A lie-flat, international-style J product in front, which will replace F and the higher J fare buckets from the 762, and economy in back, some with generous pitch for the full-fare travelers.
 
norcal
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RE: AA Makes A319 And A321 Selection Official

Tue Nov 22, 2011 2:10 pm

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 12):

I'm still a little surprised that AA has gone with the A319. Shortened, higher CASM models like the A319 haven't been a popular trend lately. It feels like an obligatory smaller-capacity plane order rather than the best economical move

This is part of a larger negotiation with the APA to establish a B-scale (lower pay scale) for A319 aircraft all the way down to CRJ-700s to be flown by mainline pilots (anything above 50 seats to be flown by mainline pilots). They want to use the A319s as part of a shuttle service type product in conjunction with an expanded codeshare with both JetBlue and to a lesser extent US.

If APA is thinking strategically (as should DALPA and UALPA/CALPA and USAPA) they should agree to a B-scale now in order to secure the aircraft, tighten up scope, and essentially kill the regional airlines (and thus the ability of management to whipsaw). Then in 10 years time when it comes up for new contract negotiations they can go for wage increases to bring up pay scales a little above regional levels.

If they try to go for the aircraft AND pay now they'll get neither. Secure the aircraft first, go for pay later. If APA can do this and the other major airlines follow suit than in 10-15 years time there will be no more regionals.
 
ThePinnacleKid
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RE: AA Makes A319 And A321 Selection Official

Tue Nov 22, 2011 2:32 pm

Quoting norcal (Reply 31):
If APA is thinking strategically (as should DALPA and UALPA/CALPA and USAPA) they should agree to a B-scale now in order to secure the aircraft, tighten up scope, and essentially kill the regional airlines (and thus the ability of management to whipsaw). Then in 10 years time when it comes up for new contract negotiations they can go for wage increases to bring up pay scales a little above regional levels.

If they try to go for the aircraft AND pay now they'll get neither. Secure the aircraft first, go for pay later. If APA can do this and the other major airlines follow suit than in 10-15 years time there will be no more regionals.

Sound sound strategy in my opinion.. as much as I dislike the idea of mainline @ regional pay levels... and detest regionals in general (even as a regional pilot)... That said... I don't think regionals will be around anyway in the long term... I still hold to the notion of a serious pilot shortage when the retirements go full swing, us current RJ guys fill their void, and then we see relatively no-one behind us to fill our void... as is you can see it now as most regionals are hiring.. and the minimums have already been dropping... most now hiring in the 350 hr range. This coming after even the regionals have had people furloughed since 2008! (Very very few people are getting into the profession anymore either from lack of available financing or from simple new media exposure on the degradation of pay, stability, quality of life, etc...)
"Sonny, did we land? or were we shot down?"
 
tommy767
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RE: AA Makes A319 And A321 Selection Official

Tue Nov 22, 2011 3:09 pm

Quoting lesismore (Reply 7):

I will miss those 762's. I am curious and interested as to how AA will configure their A321's (three-class, lie-flat in B/F, MRTC a la UA p.s., personal IFE). Exciting times ahead for AA!

Probably nothing exciting. I can't see Y getting personal monitors when the newer 738s just get drop down LCDs.

It still will probably be a better offering than flying on a US or DL A32S
"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
 
AAIL86
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RE: AA Makes A319 And A321 Selection Official

Tue Nov 22, 2011 3:36 pm

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 12):
I'm still a little surprised that AA has gone with the A319. Shortened, higher CASM models like the A319 haven't been a popular trend lately. It feels like an obligatory smaller-capacity plane order rather than the best economical move.
Quoting LV (Reply 22):
I am scratching my head about why AA wants the A319. I mean it has less seats for about the same fuel burn. It seems like it would have a higher CASM than a 320....

AA has a lot of pumping to do to right the ship. The A319 may not be the perfect "pump" but it's certainly a good chioce and an improvement over the venerable S80s. Speaking of the 80s, once they are gone (whenever that is, 2045   the 738 will be the smallest ship in the fleet and so an aircraft around the 319s size is pretty much mandatory.

Quoting laca773 (Reply 11):
AA will have to be very careful about how the configure the new A321s if they are to be used on their Flagship JFK-LAX/SFO routes. I don't see how they will be able to fly those birds on a transcon nonstop fitted with First Suites, specialized J seat units. Y won't be the issue, it will be the premium cabins. It will be interesting to see what they do.

We really have no clue how this will play out with regard to the transcons. I can tell you this- AA has not made a final chioce on this either. If AA is really in as bad of shape as some people are speculating, then the possibility is there that they could exit those markets entirely. Or they could decide that retaining widebody service on refurbished 763s is worth the effort. The truth is that not even the AA board knows the final answer here.

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 30):
It's pretty simple, IMO... UA's p.s. reconfiguration is pointing the way. A lie-flat, international-style J product in front, which will replace F and the higher J fare buckets from the 762, and economy in back, some with generous pitch for the full-fare travelers.

*Sarcasm ON* - So UA makes a profit for a couple years and now they are the leading the way? Seems like they were leading the industry in red ink for over 20 years....   *Sarcasm OFF* . Please don't take that bit of sarcasm too seroiusly. Back in 2005 I was telling my friends at AA not to underestimate DL's potenital if they got their **** together. Things do change in this industry, sometimes quickly. AA needs to find their own road, not slavishly copy UA and DL.
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imiakhtar
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RE: AA Makes A319 And A321 Selection Official

Tue Nov 22, 2011 5:26 pm

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 30):
The V2500 also has a higher maximum thrust rating.

That is incorrect. The CFM on the A321 has slightly higher thrust ratings than the V2500 (32000lbs vs 31600lbs).
Whatever happened to Leon Trotsky?
 
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Stitch
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RE: AA Makes A319 And A321 Selection Official

Tue Nov 22, 2011 5:27 pm

Quoting AAExecPlat (Reply 29):
Mind ponying up a source for your claim that Boeing was not interested in bidding?

It was in the flurry of aerospace periodical and blog posts that were made after AA, Airbus and Boeing made the announcement. I do not have a direct reference as I didn't bookmark it / them.
 
MoltenRock
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RE: AA Makes A319 And A321 Selection Official

Tue Nov 22, 2011 6:27 pm

Quoting imiakhtar (Reply 35):
That is incorrect. The CFM on the A321 has slightly higher thrust ratings than the V2500 (32000lbs vs 31600lbs).

No, you're incorrect. He was right.

The V2533-A5 which American Airlines selected have 32,800 lbs. of max thrust.

http://www.flightglobal.com/director...chMode=Manufacturer&units=Imperial
 
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yyz717
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RE: AA Makes A319 And A321 Selection Official

Tue Nov 22, 2011 6:37 pm

Given that AA has now chosen the A319, it begs the question why not the 73G for the same mission?

Anyway, any word on the mix of 319 and 321 within the 130 firm order?

Given that AA has chosen 2 A320x models, this is a further blow to Boeing since it likely eliminates the 73G and 739ER from consideration for AA (ie, AA would only buy the 738 and 8MAX from now on).
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Stitch
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RE: AA Makes A319 And A321 Selection Official

Tue Nov 22, 2011 6:45 pm

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 38):
Given that AA has now chosen the A319, it begs the question why not the 73G for the same mission?

I expect a better overall deal from Airbus. That they added 737-800s and not A320-200s implies it was not an issue with slot availability on Boeing's end.
 
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scbriml
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RE: AA Makes A319 And A321 Selection Official

Tue Nov 22, 2011 6:54 pm

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 38):
Given that AA has now chosen the A319, it begs the question why not the 73G for the same mission?

While the 738 betters the A320 on shorter missions, it's interesting that Boeing never compare the 73G to the A319 nor the 739 to the A321. There must be a reason why not.   

Quoting Stitch (Reply 39):
That they added 737-800s and not A320-200s implies it was not an issue with slot availability on Boeing's end.

So if availability isn't a deciding factor, presumably aircraft performance is? I believe it's generally accepted that the A319 and A321 outperform their Boeing counterparts more often than not.
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NWAROOSTER
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RE: AA Makes A319 And A321 Selection Official

Tue Nov 22, 2011 7:04 pm

Quoting astuteman (Reply 20):

Quoting NWAROOSTER (Reply 18):
Due to American Airlines precarious financial position, Airbus must be willing to take the risk of selling aircraft to struggling American Airlines.

I'm not sure quite how you managed to miss the large quantity of Boeings also on order here in the OP.......

Seems Boeing are willing to take the risk too...

Rgds

Just for the record. American Airlines has received all the 737-800s it ordered, about 164, except for one yet to be delivered.
I still stand by my statement.   
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seabosdca
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RE: AA Makes A319 And A321 Selection Official

Tue Nov 22, 2011 7:13 pm

Quoting NWAROOSTER (Reply 41):
Just for the record. American Airlines has received all the 737-800s it ordered, about 164, except for one yet to be delivered.

Eh? You have missed the last two 737 orders (35 in July 2010, 100 in July 2011). Check Boeing's Orders and Deliveries site if you don't believe me. 307 737-800s ordered, 164 delivered.

And that is not counting the 100 737MAX orders, which (like all other 737MAX orders) are not yet firmed up.
 
MSPNWA
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RE: AA Makes A319 And A321 Selection Official

Tue Nov 22, 2011 8:16 pm

Quoting laca773 (Reply 16):
You're correct in some aspects, but at the same time, you'll find an a/c like the A319 will have better economics than the A320s in markets such as LAX-BDL, or LAX-YUL where the demand doesn't dictate a 160+ seat a/c and where you can fly nonstop versus having to divert for fuel with strong headwinds going westbound in the Fall/Winter. In other words, it's a good a/c for thin, longer routes.

Oh, I agree that there are still routes where an A319 would work very well. It's just with the current fuel cost situation those routes have become fewer and fewer. They'll definitely be a huge improvement over an MD-80. Hopefully AA has made the right choice.

Quoting norcal (Reply 31):
This is part of a larger negotiation with the APA to establish a B-scale (lower pay scale) for A319 aircraft all the way down to CRJ-700s to be flown by mainline pilots (anything above 50 seats to be flown by mainline pilots). They want to use the A319s as part of a shuttle service type product in conjunction with an expanded codeshare with both JetBlue and to a lesser extent US.

Now an agreement like that would certainly help the argument that the A319 is a good move for AA.
 
imiakhtar
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RE: AA Makes A319 And A321 Selection Official

Tue Nov 22, 2011 9:41 pm

Quoting MoltenRock (Reply 37):
No, you're incorrect. He was right.

The V2533-A5 which American Airlines selected have 32,800 lbs. of max thrust.

http://www.flightglobal.com/director...erial

I got my numbers from the type certificate data sheets and cross-checked the numbers between EASA and the FAA. There is no mention of a 32,800lbs IAE thrust variant from either source and both are updated regularly.

According to EASA, the V2533-A5 has a takeoff rating of 140.56kN (140560*0.22481=31600lbs of thrust)

http://www.easa.eu.int/certification...-D5_series_engines-01-23072010.pdf

http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Gu...700497773/$FILE/ATTZITXD/E40ne.pdf

One must conclude therefore that flightglobal is wrong!
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Stitch
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RE: AA Makes A319 And A321 Selection Official

Tue Nov 22, 2011 10:13 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 40):
So if availability isn't a deciding factor, presumably aircraft performance is? I believe it's generally accepted that the A319 and A321 outperform their Boeing counterparts more often than not.

It seems perfectly reasonable to me that it was one of the factors and certainly one of the selling points Airbus pitched, along with the financing.
 
MoltenRock
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RE: AA Makes A319 And A321 Selection Official

Tue Nov 22, 2011 10:25 pm

Quoting imiakhtar (Reply 44):
I got my numbers from the type certificate data sheets and cross-checked the numbers between EASA and the FAA. There is no mention of a 32,800lbs IAE thrust variant from either source and both are updated regularly.

According to EASA, the V2533-A5 has a takeoff rating of 140.56kN (140560*0.22481=31600lbs of thrust)

And yet both on the manufacturer's site and Pagesuite they have the V2533-A5 listed at 32,000 lbs. of thrust. Hmmm.... odd. In any event the V2533-A5 has between 31,600 lbs. (-1% compared to CFM) and 32,800 lbs. (+2.5% compared to CFM) of thrust. In any case, given the selection, AA obviously felt the thrust and takeoff performance was "close enough" to be equal and thus more focus was placed on the fuel efficiencies and power-by-hour costs.

http://edition.pagesuite-professiona...4e8b-b156-2a09bd612f49&skip=&p=143

http://www.rolls-royce.com/Images/V2500_tcm92-11544.pdf
 
astuteman
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RE: AA Makes A319 And A321 Selection Official

Tue Nov 22, 2011 10:41 pm

Quoting NWAROOSTER (Reply 41):
Just for the record. American Airlines has received all the 737-800s it ordered, about 164, except for one yet to be delivered.
I still stand by my statement.

According to the OP..

Quoting AAIL86 (Thread starter):
American plans to take delivery of 100 aircraft from Boeing's current 737NG family starting in 2013, including three 737-800 options that had been exercised as of July 1, 2011


No matter. You stand by your statement if you want.

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 42):
307 737-800s ordered, 164 delivered.

Indeed  

Rgds
 
imiakhtar
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RE: AA Makes A319 And A321 Selection Official

Tue Nov 22, 2011 11:19 pm

Quoting MoltenRock (Reply 46):
And yet both on the manufacturer's site and Pagesuite they have the V2533-A5 listed at 32,000 lbs. of thrust.

Perhaps shockingly, If you are a pedant for numbers, the engine specs on the engine OEM websites are usually the least reliable and often misleading  . If you take the RR site for example and look at the Trent 895, it's billed as being a 95,000 lbs beast yet in actual fact it spits out a smidgeon over 93k.

I did a little digging around the flightglobal numbers you posted and looked at their source (ICAO engine emissions data sheet). Strangely enough, the ICAO data sheets agree with the EASA and FAA numbers I posted. See below:

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/702/10IA017_10122010.pdf

I think we can put the 32,800 number quoted on flightglobal specs as being a typo or incorrect conversion from metric to imperial.

Quoting MoltenRock (Reply 46):
AA obviously felt the thrust and takeoff performance was "close enough" to be equal and thus more focus was placed on the fuel efficiencies and power-by-hour costs.

I can agree with that.   
Whatever happened to Leon Trotsky?
 
Gemuser
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RE: AA Makes A319 And A321 Selection Official

Tue Nov 22, 2011 11:35 pm

Quoting imiakhtar (Reply 48):
I think we can put the 32,800 number quoted on flightglobal specs as being a typo or incorrect conversion from metric to imperial.

Maybe, maybe not. The TCDS reflect the certification position NOW. IAE is selling engines to fly in 2013/14, whoses to say the won't say 32,000lb WHEN the engine is delivered?

Gemuser
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