scouseflyer
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Thomas Cook In Trouble

Tue Nov 22, 2011 9:47 am

It seems that Thomas Cook is in discussions with banks about a further extension of its overdraft:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-15832438

Shares are down 75% this morning - this could be a big bakcrupcy if they go over the edge!
 
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Faro
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RE: Thomas Cook In Trouble

Tue Nov 22, 2011 9:57 am

Wow, 75% is dramatic and may mean that the market is discounting their ability to continue as a going concern. Normally such drops are seen in cases of accounting irregularities where the maximum loss is an uncertainty and may push a company over the edge.

Hope they can secure that facility quickly and try to improve business...

Faro
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RE: Thomas Cook In Trouble

Tue Nov 22, 2011 10:01 am

Things are looking better; financing has been secured:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/15399990

Faro
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RE: Thomas Cook In Trouble

Tue Nov 22, 2011 10:47 am

According to SkyNews Thomas Cook is also looking to unload their interest in the ATC company in the UK that could raise £60MM
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scouseflyer
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RE: Thomas Cook In Trouble

Tue Nov 22, 2011 10:58 am

Quoting faro (Reply 2):
Things are looking better; financing has been secured:

Unfortunately this is a report from 3 weeks ago when they got their last £100m - they need the same again already  
 
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RE: Thomas Cook In Trouble

Tue Nov 22, 2011 11:43 am

Its never nice to see a company in this kind of mess, especially because so many people will already of booked holidays with thomas cook because of their high street travel agents.

Although i have to say this comes as no surprise, simply because every time me or somebody i know has flown with thomas cook, we have had significant 5 hour+ delays there and back. Their aircraft seem to constantly be in maintenance and all you get is a £5 voucher. i know british tour operators are usually poor and unfortunately thomas cook is no exception.

I hope they get things together and dont go into bankruptcy, but personally i can see why they are in this mess.
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acelanzarote
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RE: Thomas Cook In Trouble

Tue Nov 22, 2011 11:59 am

Well reading the BBC news link, it suggests the problems are more with the Belguim/French parts?
While I don´t disagree about some of the delays, its also quite common to see their flights arriving
early, certainly from some of the less delay prone airports like BRS and CWL etc.

Where does Condor fit into this?

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RE: Thomas Cook In Trouble

Tue Nov 22, 2011 12:01 pm

So this would only be the uk arm that's in trouble correct??? Would this have any impact on say for instance Thomas Cook Canada .?
 
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RE: Thomas Cook In Trouble

Tue Nov 22, 2011 12:13 pm

I also noted that their main rival TUI's shares had dropped over 60% from their high this year.IE The same amount.

Europe is going into the double dip that much is now certain.The US does not look much better.

The boss of Ryan air predicted alot of blood on the carpet over 2 years ago.I cannot see how these 2 companies will be able to keep going in their present form/structure if the holiday market across Europe (outbound) collapses further - which I feel it must.

Shedding fixed costs would be the only way to survive - Couple of airlines anyone?
 
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RE: Thomas Cook In Trouble

Tue Nov 22, 2011 12:41 pm

Quoting faro (Reply 2):
Things are looking better; financing has been secured:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/15399990

Faro

Are things really better? It seems the problems are solved in very short term only. With this financining they will not go bankrupt right now it seems. But if they continue to show losses they will soon be there again. What is really the trouble here? Is it only the unrest in Egypt? I thought they had been in trouble many years. Is that the case?

It seems TUI is in much better shape.
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RE: Thomas Cook In Trouble

Tue Nov 22, 2011 12:49 pm

Well the holiday market in Europe is getting worse by the month. I read an article in the paper this morning about the lack of winter holiday bookings. Also there is a lack of snow at the large resorts at the moment which isn't helping much either. Then there is the unrest in Egypt (which if I am not mistaken is one of the larger destinations for Thomas Cook)

That combined with increased costs i.e. fuel. taxes and what not makes for a rather toxic environment to work in with large and small ACMI and charter operators going belly up left and right. At the moment there is way more capacity available on the market than that is needed.

Quoting parapente (Reply 8):
The boss of Ryan air predicted alot of blood on the carpet over 2 years ago.

I hate admitting it but I would agree with him.

So far Denim Air, Amsterdam Airlines and now Astraeus have gone belly up.
Martinair (what used to be the holiday airline) got it's passenger division axed by KLM (although this wasn't solely due to lack of business it is still a reduction in available capacity as KLM and Transavia did not take over every route)
Ryanair is parking dozens of planes this winter.

Don't know about Easyjet, TUI, Transavia, Monarch or Thomas Cook's winter plans but this blood bath is only just getting started in my opinion.
 
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RE: Thomas Cook In Trouble

Tue Nov 22, 2011 1:17 pm

Damn it would be really bad if TCX goes! If they did go, TOM and ZB would get all their old routes I suppose...
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RE: Thomas Cook In Trouble

Tue Nov 22, 2011 1:21 pm

It may be just what Monarch needs.

The Directors making announcements that bookings are safe will set alarm bells ringing in the minds of the general public. It could make bookings drop off a cliff even further.
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RE: Thomas Cook In Trouble

Tue Nov 22, 2011 1:24 pm

Also does anyone think that TOM would take any of the TCX 757's???
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RE: Thomas Cook In Trouble

Tue Nov 22, 2011 1:51 pm

Quoting bj87 (Reply 10):
Well the holiday market in Europe is getting worse by the month.

In some areas of Europe it is maybe getting worse but not in Scandinavia. Travel is still booming and TUIfly Nordic is at least doing very well indeed. The travelagencies like Fritidsresor etc are also doing very well still. However Thomas Cook Airlines Scandinavia and their travelagency Ving owned by troubled Thomas Cook are lagging behind in the competition. You can see on the planes that they are in financial stress. Planes are very dirty and it seems that TUIfly Nordic and Novair are doing better but perhaps we need more inside information to do further analysis about that. Anyway the TUI group is still doing very well also right now in Scandinavia.
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RE: Thomas Cook In Trouble

Tue Nov 22, 2011 2:10 pm

Quoting LGWflyer (Reply 13):
Also does anyone think that TOM would take any of the TCX 757's???

No, they are getting rid of loads this winter and taking around 8 new 737s. Its definately a fleet they are looking to get rid of, but I guess for emergency purposes if they need short term capacity to take on some TCX work then they might
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RE: Thomas Cook In Trouble

Tue Nov 22, 2011 2:23 pm

What long haul routes does Thomas Cook still operate EX UK?
 
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RE: Thomas Cook In Trouble

Tue Nov 22, 2011 2:37 pm

Quoting LGWflyer (Reply 13):
Also does anyone think that TOM would take any of the TCX 757's???

Thomson is actually shedding 757's.

I wonder how much the green taxes are burdening these UK airlines compared to Euro counterparts.
 
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RE: Thomas Cook In Trouble

Tue Nov 22, 2011 2:41 pm

Quoting anstar (Reply 16):
What long haul routes does Thomas Cook still operate EX UK?

From LGW a few of them are varipos places in Canada, Kingston, Orlando Sanford and possible Cancun?
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RE: Thomas Cook In Trouble

Tue Nov 22, 2011 2:43 pm

I hate to even ask this, but what are the chances of TCX going bust?
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RE: Thomas Cook In Trouble

Tue Nov 22, 2011 2:49 pm

No idea, but its ok borrowing money, but some stage its going to have to be paid back right?
Reading how the BBC reported this, the hole is just getting bigger and bigger.
I sure hope they don´t go, not going to help anyone and with the run up to Christmas.....
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RE: Thomas Cook In Trouble

Tue Nov 22, 2011 3:05 pm

Quoting Giancavia (Reply 17):
I wonder how much the green taxes are burdening these UK airlines compared to Euro counterparts.

I think the state of the leisure travelling market is worse in the UK now than in other european countries right now. It has probably mostly to do with the state of the economy in the UK and private spending. At least in the nordic countries the situation seems to be pretty normal and leisure travel is still expanding and the sector is healthy. I do not know about Germany but perhaps they have a recession like in the UK but not as bad I think.
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RE: Thomas Cook In Trouble

Tue Nov 22, 2011 3:14 pm

I am worried as I work for a company in the UK that does a lot of work for TCX inc cleaning & de-icing etc. I can't see the banks chucking more money at them. How will it get/look any better for next year? In the UK Thomson, Monarch, Jet2, EZY & RYR etc I'm sure fill in some of the gaps if TCX go under? The shorthaul market is dead for the old travel company airlines. It will be a sad day if they do go. Grim times ahead for all I think?  

[Edited 2011-11-22 07:49:52]
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RE: Thomas Cook In Trouble

Tue Nov 22, 2011 3:27 pm

Quoting shed360 (Reply 22):
How will it get/look any better for next year? In the UK Thomson, Monarch, Jet2, EZY & RYR etc I'm sure fill in some of the gaps if TCX go under? The shorthaul market is dead for the old travel company airlines. It will be a sad day if they do go.

There is a restructuring going on with Ryanair and Easyjet taking a larger portion of the market that once belonged to Thomson, Monarch etc. Internet makes it easy for everyone took book flights, hotels etc separately even when going to leisure destinations like Malaga etc.
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RE: Thomas Cook In Trouble

Tue Nov 22, 2011 3:30 pm

The UK airline charter market is over-crowded for next summer. All we need is Monarch and Thomson to meet demand.

British industry only has itself to blame. You have to employ people and you have to have added value to any product you sell.

It's a shame to lose another airline, but if we must.
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RE: Thomas Cook In Trouble

Tue Nov 22, 2011 3:32 pm

Hi Navigator
I get that. What i am getting at is the market can now do without TCX and this will help the others until the low costs do finally wrap up the sh market.
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RE: Thomas Cook In Trouble

Tue Nov 22, 2011 3:47 pm

Quoting shed360 (Reply 25):
Hi Navigator
I get that. What i am getting at is the market can now do without TCX and this will help the others until the low costs do finally wrap up the sh market.
Cheers

I think TCX is so large so it will probably be restructured, (divided?), and perhaps sold before going under. I think there is still room for the services TCX is providing a while longer. Maybe parts of TCX can be absorbed into another carrier? Who knows?
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RE: Thomas Cook In Trouble

Tue Nov 22, 2011 3:49 pm

Quoting LGW340 (Reply 18):
From LGW a few of them are varipos places in Canada, Kingston, Orlando Sanford and possible Cancun?

I heard they had cut back the canada flights for next eyar but not sure if that was true.
 
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RE: Thomas Cook In Trouble

Tue Nov 22, 2011 4:11 pm

In Germany, Thomas Cook as well as Condor are still doing fine and we do not have a recession here either. For the two companies however, it is not good when the main orgaisation is in trouble.
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RE: Thomas Cook In Trouble

Tue Nov 22, 2011 4:19 pm

Quoting Babybus (Reply 24):
The UK airline charter market is over-crowded for next summer. All we need is Monarch and Thomson to meet demand.

British industry only has itself to blame. You have to employ people and you have to have added value to any product you sell.

It's a shame to lose another airline, but if we must.

Cannot believe you wrote that, sure you would not be saying this if you worked for TCX....
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RE: Thomas Cook In Trouble

Tue Nov 22, 2011 4:55 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 28):
In Germany, Thomas Cook as well as Condor are still doing fine and we do not have a recession here either. For the two companies however, it is not good when the main orgaisation is in trouble.

One way to save parts of Thomas Cook could be to sell the German and Scandinavian parts that are still making money and then restructure the UK part? Who would be the buyer?
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RE: Thomas Cook In Trouble

Tue Nov 22, 2011 5:11 pm

Quoting Navigator (Reply 30):

One way to save parts of Thomas Cook could be to sell the German and Scandinavian parts that are still making money and then restructure the UK part? Who would be the buyer?

To me, it rather looks like Thomas Cook has only been stayed afloat for so long because of the German/Scandinavian parts. Can't see anyone interested in the money-losing part of a company.
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RE: Thomas Cook In Trouble

Tue Nov 22, 2011 5:18 pm

Weird, I heard that Thomas Cook is doing well in Belgium although I think they need a long haul fleet, they're selling tickets to Mexico and Asia but TUI is operating those flights... Doesn't make sense... I have no idea how Thomas Cook is doing in other countries like The UK, Germany, Scandinavia but all I know is that Thomas Cook Belgium is doing good.
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RE: Thomas Cook In Trouble

Tue Nov 22, 2011 5:23 pm

Quoting Tobias2702 (Reply 31):
To me, it rather looks like Thomas Cook has only been stayed afloat for so long because of the German/Scandinavian parts. Can't see anyone interested in the money-losing part of a company.

I agree. But the next time the UK operation needs cash infusion the banks will probably say no. Like Pan Am when they sold off parts to survive the last step for Thomas Cook might be to do just this, sell the profitable german and scandinavian parts. Then they also need to restructure the UK operation to make it profitable.

In Scandinavia Thomas Cook Scandinavia and the travelagency Ving have been loosing market shares to TUI since 10 years back. I think Thomas Cook Scandinavia is suffering from mismanagement from its struggling owners. Hope this does not happen to Condor...
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RE: Thomas Cook In Trouble

Tue Nov 22, 2011 5:27 pm

Unfortunately, I am not surprised that Thomas Cook UK is in trouble. The UK all-inclusive holiday market and charter flight market differs significantly from Belgium, Germany and Scandinavia.

In addition to the enormous presence of budget airlines (EZY/FR/LS/WW) to Spain and Islands/Portugal/Italy from the UK, easyJet have begun operating holiday flights to the likes of Turkey, Egypt, the Greek Islands and Cyprus, which were key routes for TCX which LCCs wouldn't touch just a few years ago. Many smaller travel companies have been tempted to book seats on EZY for their package tour customers.

Another threat to departures from the likes of MAN, EMA, LBA, NCL, GLA, EDI and BFS has been the hugely successful LCC Jet2 - who have been operating an online-only holiday booking division Jet2holidays, with high brand awareness in operating areas. They have been offering flights to all the key sun and ski destinations, with the option of the package tour. Smaller travel companies often book seats on this operator instead of TCX.

In addition, the other charter companies, Thomson and Monarch seem to have a better reputation than Thomas Cook.

[Edited 2011-11-22 09:30:19]
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RE: Thomas Cook In Trouble

Tue Nov 22, 2011 5:43 pm

I wonder if that might affect Thomas Cook and Condor in Germany...
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RE: Thomas Cook In Trouble

Tue Nov 22, 2011 6:31 pm

Some of you need to read the article when you are saying the UK market is the main factor for this at the present time,

Direct from the link:

"Winter travellers from Russia go to Thailand or Egypt," he said, adding that the floods in Thailand and continuing political unrest in Egypt had hit those bookings.


The biggest destination for French travellers in winter is Tunisia, which means that "the French people are simply not travelling".

He said that the trading position in the UK was "tough, but not of the same magnitude".

"Thomas Cook's rival Tui's shares have fallen 68% from their high for the year,"
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GIANCAVIA
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RE: Thomas Cook In Trouble

Tue Nov 22, 2011 6:32 pm

Quoting Babybus (Reply 24):
The UK airline charter market is over-crowded for next summer. All we need is Monarch and Thomson to meet demand.

British industry only has itself to blame. You have to employ people and you have to have added value to any product you sell.

It's a shame to lose another airline, but if we must.

I was under the impression Monarch being a charter airline was coming to an end? Thought it was going all schedule.

Quoting Navigator (Reply 21):

I think the state of the leisure travelling market is worse in the UK now than in other european countries right now. It has probably mostly to do with the state of the economy in the UK and private spending. At least in the nordic countries the situation seems to be pretty normal and leisure travel is still expanding and the sector is healthy. I do not know about Germany but perhaps they have a recession like in the UK but not as bad I think.

I hear you, But the extra taxes can't help when its only UK airlines paying them.
 
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RE: Thomas Cook In Trouble

Tue Nov 22, 2011 6:53 pm

Quoting photoshooter (Reply 32):
Weird, I heard that Thomas Cook is doing well in Belgium although I think they need a long haul fleet, they're selling tickets to Mexico and Asia but TUI is operating those flights... Doesn't make sense...

It does makes sense because they can cooperate with filling the larger plane needed and increase utilization. If it didnt make sense they would not do it.

Quoting EuroWings (Reply 34):
Unfortunately, I am not surprised that Thomas Cook UK is in trouble. The UK all-inclusive holiday market and charter flight market differs significantly from Belgium, Germany and Scandinavia.

In addition to the enormous presence of budget airlines (EZY/FR/LS/WW) to Spain and Islands/Portugal/Italy from the UK, easyJet have begun operating holiday flights to the likes of Turkey, Egypt, the Greek Islands and Cyprus, which were key routes for TCX which LCCs wouldn't touch just a few years ago. Many smaller travel companies have been tempted to book seats on EZY for their package tour customers.

I would say it is not all that different. It is just that Easyjet has never really got its foot into the scandinavian market but Ryanair has for sure. But here you also have Norwegian instead flying in the same manner to almost every vacation spot in the Mediterranean. I think the LCC:s have come further into this market in the UK than they have in Scandinavia but I would say that is because at least TUI / Tuifly Nordic and Apollo / Novair are still highly competitive and innovative in the market and providing good package deals with very good hotels. It seems the quality has not been as good among UK travel agencies, but I can not be sure, it is just my impression. In Scandinavia product development at the travelagencies providing package deals is intense.

But I would say that Norwegian is acting in Scandinavia like easyJet does in the UK. Same same, different liveries  
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RE: Thomas Cook In Trouble

Tue Nov 22, 2011 7:03 pm

Quoting Worldliner (Reply 5):
Although i have to say this comes as no surprise, simply because every time me or somebody i know has flown with thomas cook, we have had significant 5 hour+ delays there and back. Their aircraft seem to constantly be in maintenance and all you get is a £5 voucher. i know british tour operators are usually poor and unfortunately thomas cook is no exception.

They operate to the bear minimum when it comes to welfare during disruption. The aircraft operate three sectors a day during the summer and there is no down time between flights to deal with disruption easily.

Quoting bj87 (Reply 10):
Well the holiday market in Europe is getting worse by the month. I read an article in the paper this morning about the lack of winter holiday bookings.

Dealing with passengers first hand, there definitely seems to be a decline from the number of passengers we were dealing with last year. The most noticable factor with TOM is the yo-yo loads with long haul flights and the distinct lack of charters for cruises to the Caribbean this year.

Quoting bj87 (Reply 10):
Then there is the unrest in Egypt (which if I am not mistaken is one of the larger destinations for Thomas Cook)

The unrest in Egypt (and having travelled there this year) is not located around the Red Sea/Sinai resorts. If you have travelled to Sharm El Sheik, you would see that a large number of resorts are self contained and being within the desert hardly precipitates being affected by the national climate, far from it. Whilst undoubtely it will affect *some* bookings, the country is still completely safe and with TOM, that numbers for its flights - TCP, RMF, SSH, LXR and HRG all leave LGW with good loads.

Quoting LGWflyer (Reply 11):
TOM and ZB would get all their old routes I suppose...

There are only a small number of TCX flights that do not cross over with TOM and ZB. ZB seem to be doing their own thing now centred around growth of scheduled flights, for instance the recent launch of the BCN route. TOM already operate on most of TCX routes and some of the flights are actually shared flights with the TCX group. See VRN/LXR this summer for example.

Quoting LGWflyer (Reply 13):
Also does anyone think that TOM would take any of the TCX 757's???

Very unlikely. The 757's are being retired and sent over to Fedex at present with AO, AP and EP recently departing. There are a number of new TUI 738's due shortly.

Quoting APYu (Reply 15):
No, they are getting rid of loads this winter and taking around 8 new 737s. Its definately a fleet they are looking to get rid of, but I guess for emergency purposes if they need short term capacity to take on some TCX work then they might

Two due this year, with one coming in a couple of days time, with 8 due next year.

Quoting LGW340 (Reply 18):
From LGW a few of them are varipos places in Canada, Kingston, Orlando Sanford and possible Cancun?

Cayo Coco is another one they operate to. I believe all if not most of the Canadian routes hvae now disappeared.

Quoting shed360 (Reply 22):
In the UK Thomson, Monarch, Jet2, EZY & RYR etc I'm sure fill in some of the gaps if TCX go under? The shorthaul market is dead for the old travel company airlines.

At the moment they are operating a very limited number of flights on their own metal. During the Summer, TCX subcharter/book on to a number of flights, which lessens their financial obligation to such routes. For the Summer just gone, they had flights operated by BMI ex LGW for example and booked on to ZB and TOM flights.

Quoting Navigator (Reply 23):
There is a restructuring going on with Ryanair and Easyjet taking a larger portion of the market that once belonged to Thomson, Monarch etc. Internet makes it easy for everyone took book flights, hotels etc separately even when going to leisure destinations like Malaga etc.

There is no disputing the seismic shift in travel behaviour. The number of people flying has increased in the last 10-15 years, yet the number of "holiday" airlines has dropped down to just 2/3 and even then the business is not assured. These people are still flying, but who they are flying with and how they are booking has changed enormously. Passenger numbers grew from 130m in 1995 to 229m in 2005. This growth was centred around "regional" airports playing a much more important role in the aviation sector, accounting for passenger numbers doubling over the period. This is where EZY and FR got their foot hold and then EZY especially jumped on the decline BA experienced due to this shift of passengers by jumping into LGW which put it in direct competition with BA and the charters with a fresh and marketable product consumers want.

Quoting Babybus (Reply 24):
The UK airline charter market is over-crowded for next summer. All we need is Monarch and Thomson to meet demand.

I think one of the biggest indicators is TOM's satisfaction to replace 233 seat 757's with 189 seat 738's. It is a capacity drop on each route these aircraft operate on. If one airline is happy to lose 45 seats on each flight, a 20% drop, it does not say much for the viability of these short/medium haul routes.

Quoting Babybus (Reply 24):
British industry only has itself to blame. You have to employ people and you have to have added value to any product you sell.

From my dealings with TCX, their customer service was extremely poor. They did not even bother to reply to my letters, one of which I sent Special Delivery to ensure they received it. No way to retain business.

Quoting anstar (Reply 27):
I heard they had cut back the canada flights for next eyar but not sure if that was true.

Aircraft have already departed to TS and the routes handed over.

Quoting acelanzarote (Reply 29):
Cannot believe you wrote that, sure you would not be saying this if you worked for TCX....

You are living in a dream world and the original poster has every right to voice his opinion on a public forum. I do not understand why a certain fraction of this website always protest when people voice their opinion, especially when concerned with market forces. TCX operate in a free, deregulated market, they have to fight for business, and offer a product people want, to retain custom. Their product is clearly not working in the market place, otherwise they would not be in the position they currently find themself. I work for a company that has business contracts in place with TCX and their downfall would affect my work, but then you have to be realistic.

TCX operate an old fashioned product in a modern world. Jet2Holidays and Easyjet Holidays represent what consumers want when booking a combined holiday, that being flexible departure days, flexible holiday lengths and a large choice in accommodation options. The traditional 2 weeks in a destination, with a "selected" number of hotels is not how the masses want to travel in this day and age. In comparison, these packages from the tour operators are much more expensive than booking a LCC flight, hotel and transfer yourself and many people are now confident in making their arrangements themselves and saving the money that these companies take as their margins.

You have to reinvent yourself in this industry, introduce new and appealing things for consumers to be interested in your brand and to attract them with marketing to be at the forefront of their mind when they come to make a buying decision. Easyjet, as much as people might hate them for being the Orange behmoth, do reinvent themselves. Look at the new flexi tickets for business travellers, assessing whether allocated seating offers greater revenue opportunity than speedy boarding, new routes etc.

Quoting Navigator (Reply 30):
One way to save parts of Thomas Cook could be to sell the German and Scandinavian parts that are still making money and then restructure the UK part? Who would be the buyer?

That would be the completely opposite thing than should be done. If the German and Sandinavian parts are profitable, then keep these and sell off/dissolve the unprofitable parts. Keep the business surviving on what makes money.

Quoting photoshooter (Reply 32):
Weird, I heard that Thomas Cook is doing well in Belgium although I think they need a long haul fleet, they're selling tickets to Mexico and Asia but TUI is operating those flights

TCX regularly book flights on to TUI aircraft. TCX operate far more like a travel agency as much as they do a tour operator over TUI who in the majority use their integrated airlines.

Quoting Navigator (Reply 33):
I agree. But the next time the UK operation needs cash infusion the banks will probably say no. Like Pan Am when they sold off parts to survive the last step for Thomas Cook might be to do just this, sell the profitable german and scandinavian parts. Then they also need to restructure the UK operation to make it profitable.

See before. Keeping German and Scandinavian divisions and loosing the loss making ones makes much more sense. If the company is burning through £100m in a matter of weeks, surely the short term hit of redunancies and the transfer of assets to Germany and Scandanaiva makes much more sense to ensure the ongoing concern of the business, however much that hurts with some people on this forum.

Quoting EuroWings (Reply 34):
In addition to the enormous presence of budget airlines (EZY/FR/LS/WW) to Spain and Islands/Portugal/Italy from the UK, easyJet have begun operating holiday flights to the likes of Turkey, Egypt, the Greek Islands and Cyprus, which were key routes for TCX which LCCs wouldn't touch just a few years ago.

The charter airlines moved their volumes from short haul when the LCC's came along to mid hauls. The LCC's have now put capacity on to these routes as well. Unless they buy additional long haul aircraft, the LCC's are at the threshold of their route network now. The old addage used to be that long hauls were the saving grace of the charter airlines but there has been a marked decline in this flying. TOM last year was operating at full capacity with the 767's, doing in house flying and charter flying for the cruise lines, for example, Fred Olsen, P&O, Princess etc. This year, there are only a few charters going from LGW, on some days 1/2 767s have sat idle in the park. In addition, load factors are varying hugely, from full one day, to only 30/40 passengers the next, last year they were uniformly busy. It is a worry to see.

Quoting picturethis (Reply 36):
Some of you need to read the article when you are saying the UK market is the main factor for this at the present time,

The previous debt issues were due in part to the difficult trading environment with the UK, plus if the UK division with performing well, it would add liquidity to offset the Russian and French issues. These centric issues, one after another do not inspire confidence in the ability for TCX to dig itself comfortably out of this in the short term.

Look at the excuse for Russians not travelling to Thailand, it is solely based on the flooding. Yet this only affects Bangkok, not the tourist destinations such as Phuket.
 
McG1967
Posts: 482
Joined: Wed Apr 05, 2006 2:36 am

RE: Thomas Cook In Trouble

Tue Nov 22, 2011 7:09 pm

It is the Thomas Cook Group that has requested an additional loan from the banks due to the sharp downturn in trading in various business units of the group, caused by a combination of natural disaster, geo-political and global downturn.

Like any large organisation there will be some areas of the Group that are doing well while others not so. Where the individual airlines of the group fall within this I am not so sure.

The big problem may come if the trading statement that was issued today & caused the markets to take fright leads to a further depression of both forward and last minute bookings.
 
LHRFlyer
Posts: 701
Joined: Sun Apr 11, 2010 12:50 pm

RE: Thomas Cook In Trouble

Tue Nov 22, 2011 8:25 pm

Sorry to say it but the press and TV coverage in the UK of today's announcement wil do nothing to instil confidence in the company. When the CEO appears on TV reassuring customers that their bookings will be protected, many potential customers will think it isn't worth the risk.
 
shed360
Posts: 8
Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2008 6:05 pm

RE: Thomas Cook In Trouble

Tue Nov 22, 2011 8:46 pm

LHRFlyer - sadly you are spot on a lot will be holding back booking or going elsewhere
Slow,fat, and ugly but I love 'em - Long live the Shed!
 
kdhurst380
Posts: 342
Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2010 1:52 am

RE: Thomas Cook In Trouble

Tue Nov 22, 2011 9:10 pm

No wonder really, I flew with them once and it was a dreadful experience. Aircraft are ancient, cabin crew couldn't be bothered... people think with their feet, and have done.
 
Virginblue4
Posts: 514
Joined: Sun Jun 01, 2008 12:18 pm

RE: Thomas Cook In Trouble

Tue Nov 22, 2011 9:29 pm

I have now flown with them 3 times all long-haul and have never had a problem with them. None of the flights were delayed, aircraft were nice and customer service was great! Really hope they do not go under!
The amazing tale of flight.
 
awthompson
Posts: 482
Joined: Sat May 28, 2005 9:59 pm

RE: Thomas Cook In Trouble

Tue Nov 22, 2011 10:14 pm

I would re-iterate, I recently took a Thomas Cook package holiday from Belfast to southern Turkey. The whole package was perfect from the booking experience right until we arrived home again. Also the price was great, made me wonder why I would want to bother piecing my own holiday together using low cost carriers etc. I certainly could not have included everything that Thomas Cook included for the same price using a low cost carrier. Included in the price was a generous baggage allowance, meals on the flights, a Thomas Cook representative at Antalya Airport to point out our coach, coach transfer from airport to hotel with on board welcome and introduction to the holiday by Thomas Cook representative, a Thomas Cook representative at the hotel all week to look after us etc. The flights were exactly on time and the aircraft, an A321 was nice.

I have supported this organisation right through its evolution from Inter European Airways, Airtours, My Travel and now Thomas Cook. They have always based a plane at Belfast. The hotel by the way was the Sunrise Queen Resort in Side which far exceeded my expectations in every way. It would be a pity if something so good were to come to an end, but then such is life!
 
bennett123
Posts: 7461
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

RE: Thomas Cook In Trouble

Tue Nov 22, 2011 10:25 pm

I went to Athens with Thomas Cook.

I must say that I was not wholly impressed.

They make a big play about their years of experience and knowledge of the travel market.

On going out, I was contacted 36 hours before departure and told that my flight was being brought forward six hours. The reason was that Greece was having yet another Public Sector strike. It apparently did not occur to the great travel experts that this was a risk. When in Greece, I read the English language newspaper for the previous week. They knew that Olympic was going to be affected.

On departure, I was leaving on the same day as the Pope arrived. This was an event not greeted with universal joy. I recall that there were demonstrations in Athens that week. On the day of his arrival, the Greek Police set up road blocks in all directions.
If I had been aware of this, then I would left for the Airport much earlier, as it was, I was barely in time.

It is somewhat galling to find that I have as much chance of finding out about potential from CNN as my tour operator. As I said, they conspicously marketed themselves as travel experts, but the reality was less impressive.

Either their local reps were oblivious to what was happening around or information was not being passed on.

Neither of these events should have come as a surprise to them.
 
tcxdegsy
Posts: 356
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 2:47 am

RE: Thomas Cook In Trouble

Tue Nov 22, 2011 11:09 pm

Let's not forget, before everyone circles like vultures... Thomas Cook Group is still poised to make approx £190m profit for the year. Tour Operator margin in Europe have nosedived in recent years, bearing in mind that the "holy grail" of tour operator margin is still only 5%, which TC was the first UK Tour Op Company to achieve around 2004.

Let's also not forget that up until 2001, Thomas Cook in its various forms over 160yrs as both a priviate and nationalised company, had NEVER made a profit, and made its first official profit in 2001/2 year, of a nominal £36m.

This Company won't fail. It may be subject to a take over now, but the name is it's most valuable asset.
next flights: BA1441 0566 0581 1446 EDI-LHR-MXP-LHR-EDI
 
tcxdegsy
Posts: 356
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RE: Thomas Cook In Trouble

Tue Nov 22, 2011 11:16 pm

Quoting planesailing (Reply 39):
TCX regularly book flights on to TUI aircraft. TCX operate far more like a travel agency as much as they do a tour operator over TUI who in the majority use their integrated airlines.

This is simple to explain = it's called Vertical Integration and TC are unique in that it's a Travel Agency business that bought an operate an airline and a tour operator. All other Vertically Integrated travel Companies are the opposite - a tour operator/ airline that bought and run a travel agency business for distribution benefits.

All Tour Ops buy up seats on each other's airlines, simply because their isnt the airspace, fleet and flight slots to operate every route and flight that tour ops would want flight combinations for. Each Charter Airline holds a number of seats back as "free sale" seats that can be used to pass capacity onto other tour ops as necessary... it's mutually beneficial if you consider that it would be more expensive to buy seats from a rival airline that it would be to buy them from your inhouse fleet.
next flights: BA1441 0566 0581 1446 EDI-LHR-MXP-LHR-EDI
 
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stasisLAX
Posts: 2924
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RE: Thomas Cook In Trouble

Tue Nov 22, 2011 11:22 pm

Quoting planesailing (Reply 39):
There is no disputing the seismic shift in travel behaviour. The number of people flying has increased in the last 10-15 years, yet the number of "holiday" airlines has dropped down to just 2/3 and even then the business is not assured.

Ever here in the US, this seems to be evident. USA3000 was the airline arm of Apple Vacations, and U5 has announced that it is ending all operations in January 2012. Shame to here that news - their service was generally good, but U5 scheduled operations flew many to Florida and Mexico, and they couldn't financially survive.
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin