LHLX
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UA/CO To TLV From IAD/ORD?

Wed Nov 30, 2011 9:04 am

With CO's 2 daily flight between EWR and TLV being very profiltable, and seeing that MOST US - Israel routes are profitable, do you guys think there is a chance we'll see UA/CO operating nonstops from TLV beyond EWR? IAD and ORD of course come to mind...
 
chepos
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UA/CO To TLV From IAD/ORD?

Wed Nov 30, 2011 11:09 am

TLV from NYC is a huge market and does not really rely much on connections, ORD while I'm sure has a market to Israel would depend much more heavily on connections. That beng said the route would also depend highly on VFR traffic and people headed to Israel on holiday which does not produce the best of yields. Add ot the fact this would be a long route and you would have to at least dedicate 2 widebody aircraft if you want to operate the route daily. I am sure UAL is most happy at the moment just routing pax through EWR if you wish to travel to Israel, I for one don't foresee ORD-TLV happening soon. TLV is a big market from the US but I personally think the market is already well served between DL, UAL/CO, US and LY - let's not forget the many options you get through the European carriers.

Regards,

Chepos
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LHLX
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UA/CO To TLV From IAD/ORD?

Wed Nov 30, 2011 11:12 am

How about connections to / from Florida via IAD?

South Florida (MIA, FLL, PBI) has a huge israeli and even bigger Jewish community.
Could UA channel some of that Israel traffic through IAD? Also, I am sure Washington, Baltimore etc have very big communities.

Or is that market covered by LY/CO from EWR and US from PHL?
 
jfk787nyc
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UA/CO To TLV From IAD/ORD?

Wed Nov 30, 2011 11:57 am

Quoting LHLX (Reply 7):
How about connections to / from Florida via IAD?

South Florida (MIA, FLL, PBI) has a huge israeli and even bigger Jewish community.
Could UA channel some of that Israel traffic through IAD? Also, I am sure Washington, Baltimore etc have very big communities.

Or is that market covered by LY/CO from EWR and US from PHL?

Personally, I believe American Airlines should finally stop being stubborn and pay the small amount of money the TWA Workers at TLV are demanding.

If that happens American Airlines can open up a MIA-TLV route and Israelis will have a great selection of Latin American destinations open to them automatically.

I am not sure if International Passengers at MIA need to clear customs in the USA if there final destination leaves from the same terminal.
 
chepos
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UA/CO To TLV From IAD/ORD?

Wed Nov 30, 2011 12:22 pm

Regardless of were your final destination is you need to clear customs and immigrations upon entering the US. Even if you are just transiting through the country.

Regards,

Chepos
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jfk777
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UA/CO To TLV From IAD/ORD?

Wed Nov 30, 2011 12:52 pm

Continental made Tel Aviv one of its flagship routes with double daily 777's. New York and Los Angeles are the two biggest Jewish populations centers in the USA, New York is well served to Israel & LAX doesn't make sense for a US airline as El AL already has nonstops to TLV already.

Quoting jfk787nyc (Reply 8):
If that happens American Airlines can open up a MIA-TLV route and Israelis will have a great selection of Latin American destinations open to them automatically.

Could this debt to old TWA emplyees be discharged by the Chapter 11 BK of AA ?
 
LHLX
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UA/CO To TLV From IAD/ORD?

Wed Nov 30, 2011 12:58 pm

Assuming that AA's issue would be solved (i.e. what you owe and get on with it), they could send two 777 over to TLV (one from JFK and one from MIA) and make tons of dinero....
 
bobnwa
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UA/CO To TLV From IAD/ORD?

Wed Nov 30, 2011 12:58 pm

Quoting LHLX (Thread starter):
, and seeing that MOST US - Israel routes are profitable, do




Not sure this is true for most US-Israel routes
 
staralliance85
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UA/CO To TLV From IAD/ORD?

Wed Nov 30, 2011 1:13 pm

Quoting jfk787nyc (Reply 8):

Personally, I believe American Airlines should finally stop being stubborn and pay the small amount of money the TWA Workers at TLV are demanding.

If that happens American Airlines can open up a MIA-TLV route and Israelis will have a great selection of Latin American destinations open to them automatically.

I am not sure if International Passengers at MIA need to clear customs in the USA if there final destination leaves from the same terminal.


Great point! AA is desperate for a TLV route. All the majors besides them already have it. I see a JFK-TLV route being more of a success than MIA-TLV. I feel most TLV routes are only successful from the NYC area. I don't see UA adding ORD-TLV because they are set with EWR-TLV 2x daily.
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Tdan
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UA/CO To TLV From IAD/ORD?

Wed Nov 30, 2011 1:41 pm

JFK-TLV could work for AA, but their 777s are not dense enough to properly serve the market. First and business class yields to/from TLV are traditionally very low.

I don't see UA being successful on IAD or ORD - TLV. EWR allows UA to concentrate all of its system-wide traffic and this coupled with the enormous local market can help keep yields high year-round. Same with DL at JFK. Once JFK-TLV came online for DL (particularly after the upgauge to a 744), it cannibalized ATL-TLV immensely, eventually leading to the route's cancellation. If DL can't make ATL-TLV work, I'm skeptical UA can make IAD or ORD work.
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tommy767
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UA/CO To TLV From IAD/ORD?

Wed Nov 30, 2011 2:11 pm

I think it's only a matter of time before IAD-TLV is started with 2 class 763s or 777s.

There are some sources that say that UA was looking to operate SFO-TLV with CO metal, but that never panned out (for obvious reasons.)
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hiflyer
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UA/CO To TLV From IAD/ORD?

Wed Nov 30, 2011 2:33 pm

Quoting TOMMY767 (Reply 15):
I think it's only a matter of time before IAD-TLV is started with 2 class 763s or 777s.

  

Re MIATLV I remember in the mid to late 70's the original National was looking hard at that route....other events (frank lorenzo) changed that. El Al ran it via Montreal for years.
 
leftyboarder
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UA/CO To TLV From IAD/ORD?

Wed Nov 30, 2011 2:45 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 10):
Could this debt to old TWA emplyees be discharged by the Chapter 11 BK of AA ?

This link http://aa.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=43&item=3397 has the phrase "These filings have no direct legal impact on American's operations outside the United States." So does that maybe mean no effect on old TWA debt?
 
2travel2know2
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UA/CO To TLV From IAD/ORD?

Wed Nov 30, 2011 2:49 pm

Probably seasonal (summer and Xmas/New Year, not that sure if for Jewish holy days too) ORD-TLV and IAD-TLV a couple of times per week each might work. Rest of the year UA/CO is fine with EWR-TLV double daily.
Worth to mention, for seasonal ORD/IAD-TLV aircraft from U.S.-South America could be used as the demand is lower when is northern hemisphere's summer.
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klwright69
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UA/CO To TLV From IAD/ORD?

Wed Nov 30, 2011 3:14 pm

This topic comes up every so often, and it has been discussed to death.There seems to be a lot of interest in TLV flights. CO seems very content with the 2x daily EWR flights. I am sure it has a great mix of connecting traffic with strong local traffic. The opening of another gateway would diminish the route from EWR. Yes, they might open another gateway to TLV in the future, but that point could be anytime in our lifetime. USA-TLV market seems very focused on the NYC area.

I agree DL really hurt themselves to TLV by not focusing on JFK from the very beginning, and messing around with ATL-TLV which failed in the end.

I think LY still flies to LAX but no longer to MIA or ORD IIRC.
 
chicawgo
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UA/CO To TLV From IAD/ORD?

Wed Nov 30, 2011 4:21 pm

Quoting Tdan (Reply 14):
Same with DL at JFK. Once JFK-TLV came online for DL (particularly after the upgauge to a 744), it cannibalized ATL-TLV immensely, eventually leading to the route's cancellation. If DL can't make ATL-TLV work, I'm skeptical UA can make IAD or ORD work.

You can't use ATL as an example of how IAD, MIA, or ORD would perform. Chicago metro, Miami metro, and Wash/Balt metro have enormously larger number of Jewish population which inherently creates much more O&D traffic on both sides. That's not to mention the potential gov't travel from IAD and business travel from all. Israel is quickly growing as a business center and don't forget that Chicago is the 4th largest city economy in the world.
 
khpn
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UA/CO To TLV From IAD/ORD?

Wed Nov 30, 2011 4:34 pm

Quoting klwright69 (Reply 20):
I think LY still flies to LAX but no longer to MIA or ORD IIRC.

Correct.

As for IAD, IMO it is too close to EWR and since UA/CO already has the customer base in the area and the hub to allow for connections, I cant see IAD-TLV working...
In terms of ORD, the opportunities for for connection are vast, there is a good market, but as stated, TLV is well served from the U.S and I think that this route could only work as a seasonal one.

Quoting jfk787nyc (Reply 8):
Personally, I believe American Airlines should finally stop being stubborn and pay the small amount of money the TWA Workers at TLV are demanding.

jfk787nyc i couldnt agree more. I think the MIA-TLV route would be hugely successful maybe AA could work something out during restructuring   
 
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UA/CO To TLV From IAD/ORD?

Wed Nov 30, 2011 4:44 pm

Quoting klwright69 (Reply 20):
I agree DL really hurt themselves to TLV by not focusing on JFK from the very beginning, and messing around with ATL-TLV which failed in the end.

I'm guessing that you're talking about the latest foray of DL, JFK-TLV and not the total history. DL took over the PA route, JFK-Paris-TLV in '91 and it was only dropped because many of the pax were PanAm FF members, redeeming their miles. Apparently TLV was a hotbed of FF activity. The second foray was JFK-TLV, but was dropped shortly after 9/11, IIRC. The latest try at the route had both ATL-TLV and JFK-TLV, until the ATL route was dropped.
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laca773
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UA/CO To TLV From IAD/ORD?

Wed Nov 30, 2011 5:00 pm

Quoting LHLX (Reply 7):
How about connections to / from Florida via IAD?

South Florida (MIA, FLL, PBI) has a huge israeli and even bigger Jewish community.
Could UA channel some of that Israel traffic through IAD? Also, I am sure Washington, Baltimore etc have very big communities.

They do. DL offered lots of connecting opportunities via ATL from all their Florida destinations, and the route still go the axe. I have wondered ever since DL placed the 744 on JFK-TLV, if it hurt ATL-TLV or was ATL mainly booked with those going on tours etc., versus high yield J traffic?

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 10):
Continental made Tel Aviv one of its flagship routes with double daily 777's. New York and Los Angeles are the two biggest Jewish populations centers in the USA, New York is well served to Israel & LAX doesn't make sense for a US airline as El AL already has nonstops to TLV already.

How does LY do out of LAX these days? I believe they fly the route 4X a week. Because of the long duration of this trip, is it safe to say, they do well in F & J with full fare, paying passengers?

Quoting staralliance85 (Reply 13):

Great point! AA is desperate for a TLV route. All the majors besides them already have it. I see a JFK-TLV route being more of a success than MIA-TLV. I feel most TLV routes are only successful from the NYC area. I don't see UA adding ORD-TLV because they are set with EWR-TLV 2x daily.
Quoting TOMMY767 (Reply 15):
There are some sources that say that UA was looking to operate SFO-TLV with CO metal, but that never panned out (for obvious reasons.)

Is there enough transfer traffic or demand for UA to add SFO-TLV service, like 3X a week? If the 77E is too much capacity, the 787 would be a great fit for this route if they were to ever start it.

Quoting klwright69 (Reply 20):

I think LY still flies to LAX but no longer to MIA or ORD IIRC.

klwright69, LY has flown to LAX for years and when they stopped the 762 service via YYZ, it went nonstop with the 77E.
 
klwright69
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UA/CO To TLV From IAD/ORD?

Wed Nov 30, 2011 7:27 pm

It appears the USA-TLV market is not that large really. TLV really only works from a couple of markets.
 
phllax
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UA/CO To TLV From IAD/ORD?

Wed Nov 30, 2011 8:17 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 10):
LAX doesn't make sense for a US airline as El AL already has nonstops to TLV already.

Interestingly enough both the US Airways flight and Continental 90/91 originate and terminate in LAX.
 
Tdan
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UA/CO To TLV From IAD/ORD?

Wed Nov 30, 2011 8:25 pm

Quoting chicawgo (Reply 21):

You can't use ATL as an example of how IAD, MIA, or ORD would perform. Chicago metro, Miami metro, and Wash/Balt metro have enormously larger number of Jewish population which inherently creates much more O&D traffic on both sides. That's not to mention the potential gov't travel from IAD and business travel from all. Israel is quickly growing as a business center and don't forget that Chicago is the 4th largest city economy in the world.

Sure you can (market-PDEW):

ORDTLV - 65
WASTLV - 50
ATLTLV - 40

In the grand scheme of things, local markets are not that different. Plus ATL has the best connections to Florida (~120 PDEW). WAS's top flow points would be the exact same as EWRTLV and I bet UA already does quite well with WASTLV market share. Therefore incremental revenue would be minimal and only include the spill from the current EWRTLV flights. Same thing for ORDTLV. What other large, unique markets would WAS or ORD provide that cannot already flow onestop via EWR?

Additionally, business travel, while it is growing, is not the reason US-TLV nonstops exist. FC fares are notoriously low yielding.
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UA/CO To TLV From IAD/ORD?

Wed Nov 30, 2011 8:35 pm

Quoting khpn (Reply 22):
As for IAD, IMO it is too close to EWR and since UA/CO already has the customer base in the area and the hub to allow for connections, I cant see IAD-TLV working...

PHL is even closer to EWR, and US within the same alliance as UA/CO, yet US has flown PHLTLV for a number of years and is still with us today.

If anything, I believe IAD has a very compelling reason given the govt. traffic. However, debatable whether ORD, IAD and EWR could all do TLV simulataneously. I think that is a bit too much.

Things may undoubtedly change when and if LY chooses to join an alliance.
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chicawgo
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UA/CO To TLV From IAD/ORD?

Wed Nov 30, 2011 9:37 pm

Quoting Tdan (Reply 27):
Sure you can (market-PDEW):

ORDTLV - 65
WASTLV - 50
ATLTLV - 40

I don't have access to this kind of info so I can't really comment further. But I will say that something doesn't seem right about that to me. I assume this does not include any connecting traffic? There are an estimated 265,000 Jews in the Chicago metro area and an estimated 125,000 in Atlanta metro. That's not to mention the many more Israeli's in Chicago as well. And if you'd like the data for this I can post.

Especially since you're saying that US-TLV is generally low yield pax, that makes the size of respective Jewish populations even more important since the majority of "leisure" travelers to Israel are Jewish.
 
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RE: UA/CO To TLV From IAD/ORD?

Thu Dec 01, 2011 2:51 am

Quoting laca773 (Reply 24):
How does LY do out of LAX these days? I believe they fly the route 4X a week. Because of the long duration of this trip, is it safe to say, they do well in F & J with full fare, paying passengers?

Is there enough transfer traffic or demand for UA to add SFO-TLV service, like 3X a week? If the 77E is too much capacity, the 787 would be a great fit for this route if they were to ever start it.

I can see UA using 762s to serve such TLV markets. IAD, ORD, LAX, or SFO traffic should be able to fill a 762. They still have eight of them left, and current 762 routes to Europe and S. America are about to be upgraded to 763, 764 or 772 service. UA will then have 762s to spare, unless they sell them to Omni.  

Maybe a 762 on LAX- or SFO-TLV would work out fine. But, given the length of those trips, UA would have to upgrade the old J-class to the new standard, recently unveiled for the 764. But plans to upgrade the 762 fleet have been on again, off again.
 
gigneil
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RE: UA/CO To TLV From IAD/ORD?

Thu Dec 01, 2011 3:06 am

Quoting chicawgo (Reply 29):
I assume this does not include any connecting traffic?

It does not. PDEW are originating and terminating passengers in the city pair.

NS
 
gigneil
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RE: UA/CO To TLV From IAD/ORD?

Thu Dec 01, 2011 3:08 am

Quoting Schweigend (Reply 30):
I can see UA using 762s to serve such TLV markets.

It would have to be extremely high yield. The 762s are used to capture premium traffic or fly high yielding routes in times that the 752 can't fly it.

I'm uncertain those routes make sense.

NS
 
2travel2know2
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RE: UA/CO To TLV From IAD/ORD?

Thu Dec 01, 2011 3:23 am

Quoting Schweigend (Reply 30):
I can see UA using 762s to serve such TLV markets. IAD, ORD, LAX, or SFO traffic should be able to fill a 762

Because flying time, TLV from all those airports need 2 planes, if UA was to consider dally flights.
Given the availability of UA/CO B767-200ER, best possible scenario for ORD-TLV-ORD (ORD would offer more connections than SFO/LAX), would be a thrice weekly, high-season only, red-eyes both ways, on B767-200ER w/o upgrade, ORD-TLV 2300h or later departures Mondays, Wednesdays and Saturdays with TLV-ORD 0100h departures Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays.
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jmc1975
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RE: UA/CO To TLV From IAD/ORD?

Thu Dec 01, 2011 3:32 am

Quoting chicawgo (Reply 29):
But I will say that something doesn't seem right about that to me. I assume this does not include any connecting traffic? There are an estimated 265,000 Jews in the Chicago metro area and an estimated 125,000 in Atlanta metro.

Actually the numbers seem to add up fine. Sure, metro Chicago's Jewish population is slightly more than twice that of metro Atlanta. However, Atlanta had the advantage of having DL's nonstop to TLV, thus inherently increasing local PDEWs. Putting EWR aside, either ORD or IAD to TLV make more sense for UA/CO than ATL to TLV ever did for DL.
.......
 
boilerla
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RE: UA/CO To TLV From IAD/ORD?

Thu Dec 01, 2011 5:01 am

I can see them doing what they did with the MAN and DUB flights--moving one frequency from EWR to IAD. I don't see ORD happening though for a while Might be a good 788 flight.
 
klwright69
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RE: UA/CO To TLV From IAD/ORD?

Thu Dec 01, 2011 7:00 am

One thing to consider is that it seems airlines these days are becoming very selective about launching new long haul flights. It seems in today's economic climate it's better to play it safe. We see Cathay Pacific launching some new service to NYC. This is a tried and true route for them. CO/UA launches some new European routes with the 757. FI launches DEN flights with the 757. Longer 757 segments are less risky.

In other words, we won't see new routes to TLV unless there is a superior opportunity available. I am not seeing that now. LY seems fine with LAX and NYC. CO/UA has a nice thing going at EWR. And US in PHL, DL in JFK.

The market to TLV does not seem very big, and it is concentrated. If DL can't make TLV work from ATL, that is a real bad sign. Isn't this the largest hub in the world? CO never bothered trying IAH-TLV. For LY, MIA and ORD failed. In other words, the market is real tricky. Airlines are playing it safe these days. AA decided it is not worth the trouble returning to TLV given their issue there.

Some are suggesting there may be a seasonal flight that is less than daily from ORD or IAD. It's possible, but I don't know if CO/UA would decide it's worth the trouble. A seasonal flight would need a plane deployed elsewhere.
 
MAH4546
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RE: UA/CO To TLV From IAD/ORD?

Thu Dec 01, 2011 7:16 am

Quoting Tdan (Reply 21):
to Florida (~120 PDEW

Just South Florida is 120 PDEW. The entire state is more than that.
a.
 
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RE: UA/CO To TLV From IAD/ORD?

Thu Dec 01, 2011 9:49 am

Quoting laca773 (Reply 18):
Is there enough transfer traffic or demand for UA to add SFO-TLV service, like 3X a week? If the 77E is too much capacity, the 787 would be a great fit for this route if they were to ever start it.

Agreed, as has been stated in previous threads, the 787 will do much for many cities as carriers strive to add new services on otherwise unoperated routes where any other aircraft would be unprofitable. I think TLV is such a destination. As 787's flow into airline fleets, I see SFO, ORD & MIA very realistic.

Only concern I see is there are many other routes that will see the 787 first, a rather long list, but patince I see it happening in time, look at when thee 777 started flying and each airline had a few at first, then they replaced other planes and new destinations and routes popped up all over the place.
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RE: UA/CO To TLV From IAD/ORD?

Thu Dec 01, 2011 10:12 am

Quoting klwright69 (Reply 30):
CO never bothered trying IAH-TLV.

Old CO must have at least considered the idea of IAH-TLV, and then rejected it as untenable.

ORD-TLV, and especially LAX- and SFO-TLV, however, could be done with the 762, even considering the need for two frames apiece to operate the routes.

With the old CO 762s having 25J and 149Y -- filling 174 total seats wouldn't be a problem.

Now, new UA should make it 6F 20J 70Y+ and 70Y or something similar.

UA 762s could become niche birds featuring true F, for the thin,long routes.

So what if it might require two aircraft to make TLV happen from LAX, SFO, IAD or ORD. I say, try it! If the route is not successful, end it, but at least give it a go.
 
LHLX
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RE: UA/CO To TLV From IAD/ORD?

Thu Dec 01, 2011 11:04 am

762s do not have the range to fly from the West Coast to TLV.
ORD-TLV was flown by LY in the past (I am not sure whether this was nonstop or always via YYZ), but 13 hours (on TLV-ORD) is kinda pushing the 762.

LY's MIA-TLV was apparently not profitable as it was flown with fuel guzzling 762s.
A renewed LY TLV-MIA route using a 777 could work very well. It's more fuel efficient than a 762, the Jewish and Israeli communities in South Florida are huge and AA, with whom LY codeshare, could open up all of Latin America, something that was lost to LY's passengers following LY's foolish decision to cut the GRU route (officially this was cancelled due to high fuel prices, but LAX is just as far away from TLV so the same amount of fuel would be needed, and regarding the expansive fuel prices LY continues to operate far-away destinations like YYZ or PEK with 767s...)
 
laca773
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RE: UA/CO To TLV From IAD/ORD?

Thu Dec 01, 2011 11:15 am

In some ways, this could work in UAs favor since LY doesn't have any new generation a/c ordered at this time ( if I'm wrong please advise.). They won't be able to continue operating their old 767 fleet forever and the 744s are not young by any means. LY hasn't even sent their 763ERs in for blended winglets which would help them make these birds much more efficient to operate as well as increasing their range.
 
jfk787nyc
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RE: UA/CO To TLV From IAD/ORD?

Thu Dec 01, 2011 12:59 pm

Quoting klwright69 (Reply 30):
For LY, MIA and ORD failed

LY -- There route to MIA was successful but it could not use a 762 - LY representatives advised that as soon as their is a suitable airplane they will be back.

Saying that this is the reason I do not understand why AA does not start this route as they are LY's partner anyway.

TLV is a prime destination for the USA, I fly to TLV at least 6 times a year and in the last 5 years I have not been on a single airplane that was not overbooked.
 
klwright69
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RE: UA/CO To TLV From IAD/ORD?

Thu Dec 01, 2011 1:17 pm

Quoting jfk787nyc (Reply 36):
Quoting klwright69 (Reply 30):
For LY, MIA and ORD failed

LY -- There route to MIA was successful but it could not use a 762 - LY representatives advised that as soon as their is a suitable airplane they will be back.

Saying that this is the reason I do not understand why AA does not start this route as they are LY's partner anyway.

TLV is a prime destination for the USA, I fly to TLV at least 6 times a year and in the last 5 years I have not been on a single airplane that was not overbooked.

I certainly agree TLV is a good market from the USA. But it must be a very concentrated market since attempts to expand service to other American gateways have had limited success.

AA probably has larger fish to fry given they are now in Chapter 11. AA loves using partners for middle eastern routes anyway.
 
gigneil
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RE: UA/CO To TLV From IAD/ORD?

Thu Dec 01, 2011 2:36 pm

Quoting Schweigend (Reply 33):
Now, new UA should make it 6F 20J 70Y+ and 70Y or something similar.

You can't go from what you have to that. first off. The plane is tiny.  

Second off, TLV is just not a premium route. If anything a 2 class bird would be far superior, but even so they have too many seats up front for the route.

Quoting Schweigend (Reply 33):
So what if it might require two aircraft to make TLV happen from LAX, SFO, IAD or ORD. I say, try it! If the route is not successful, end it, but at least give it a go.

In today's environment, that's just not super responsible, unfortunately. I think they could fly from SFO. Other people think they probably could too. But the 762, not really the plane to do it. There's no way to make money.

Quoting LHLX (Reply 34):
762s do not have the range to fly from the West Coast to TLV.

United's do. They're the most capable 767s built.

NS
 
chicawgo
Posts: 166
Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2011 5:09 pm

RE: UA/CO To TLV From IAD/ORD?

Thu Dec 01, 2011 5:13 pm

Quoting LHLX (Reply 34):
ORD-TLV was flown by LY in the past (I am not sure whether this was nonstop or always via YYZ),
Quoting klwright69 (Reply 30):
. For LY, MIA and ORD failed.

LY flew ORD-TLV for MANY MANY MANY years. I don't know every single which way they did it but I know they did nonstop to TLV for a while and in the last few years they had 777 and 747's doing a one stop in EWR to pick up/drop off 3x-4x per week. My guess is they finally cut it for the same reason that many other int'l flights got cut: because people were willing to have a layover in order to fly on a specific alliance. This made many city-pairs for certain airlines unprofitable. You probably could argue that this is a long term effect of deregulation. Of course 9/11 didn't help either.

Quoting jmc1975 (Reply 28):
Actually the numbers seem to add up fine. Sure, metro Chicago's Jewish population is slightly more than twice that of metro Atlanta. However, Atlanta had the advantage of having DL's nonstop to TLV, thus inherently increasing local PDEWs. Putting EWR aside, either ORD or IAD to TLV make more sense for UA/CO than ATL to TLV ever did for DL.

I'm confused by your post. First of all, if you're saying that having a nonstop to TLV from a specific city inherently increases PDEW, then that would make those numbers irrelevant as ATL was benefiting from that phenomena whereas ORD currently doesn't.

Two, it appears that at the end of your post, you actually agree with my main point... that ATL-TLV is not a good comparison to whether ORD/IAD/MIA-TLV would work.
 
jmc1975
Posts: 2897
Joined: Mon Sep 18, 2000 10:57 am

RE: UA/CO To TLV From IAD/ORD?

Thu Dec 01, 2011 11:13 pm

Quoting chicawgo (Reply 39):
First of all, if you're saying that having a nonstop to TLV from a specific city inherently increases PDEW, then that would make those numbers irrelevant as ATL was benefiting from that phenomena whereas ORD currently doesn't.

You are correct.

Quoting chicawgo (Reply 39):
that ATL-TLV is not a good comparison to whether ORD/IAD/MIA-TLV would work.

Again, correct. The lack of success DL had @ ATL should not be a primary indicator as to how IAD or ORD might perform.
.......
 
usairways85
Posts: 3564
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2001 11:59 am

RE: UA/CO To TLV From IAD/ORD?

Thu Dec 01, 2011 11:31 pm

Quoting Schweigend (Reply 24):
I can see UA using 762s to serve such TLV markets. IAD, ORD, LAX, or SFO traffic should be able to fill a 762. They still have eight of them left, and current 762 routes to Europe and S. America are about to be upgraded to 763, 764 or 772 service. UA will then have 762s to spare, unless they sell them to Omni.
Quoting Schweigend (Reply 33):
With the old CO 762s having 25J and 149Y -- filling 174 total seats wouldn't be a problem.

Now, new UA should make it 6F 20J 70Y+ and 70Y or something similar.

UA 762s could become niche birds featuring true F, for the thin,long routes.

At this time there is no plan to reconfigure these birds and chances are they will leave the fleet in 1-2 years once all of the 763/764//772/744 mods take place
 
capitalflyer
Posts: 268
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 2:43 am

RE: UA/CO To TLV From IAD/ORD?

Thu Dec 01, 2011 11:55 pm

Quoting LHLX (Reply 2):
How about connections to / from Florida via IAD?
Quoting khpn (Reply 16):
As for IAD, IMO it is too close to EWR

Some on this board have posited that UA may move more connecting traffic to IAD as it has huge capacity and is not slot controlled, leaving EWR to concentrate more on high yield O&D. No doubt some of the folks now connecting through EWR would then be routed through IAD, where a flight to TLV could pick up these connections, O&D, plus...

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 22):
IAD has a very compelling reason given the govt. traffic

government traffic. Defense contractors (and there are tons in NoVA around IAD) would probably eat up a non-stop to TLV. I think they could make money with a less than daily schedule at least.
 
Tdan
Posts: 497
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2011 9:36 pm

RE: UA/CO To TLV From IAD/ORD?

Fri Dec 02, 2011 1:53 am

Quoting jmc1975 (Reply 40):
Quoting chicawgo (Reply 39):
that ATL-TLV is not a good comparison to whether ORD/IAD/MIA-TLV would work.

Again, correct. The lack of success DL had @ ATL should not be a primary indicator as to how IAD or ORD might perform.

With a nonstop in place, ORD-TLV probably increases to 80 PDEW. My point is that the local traffic is not terribly different (especially when adjusting for market share...DL would undoubtedly carry a much higher market share out of ATL than UA would from ORD simply due to all of the one-stop competition out of ORD). Additionally, the quality and size of the ATL connections were very good. Top flow points on ORD-TLV would be SFO, LAX and then a bunch of 1's and 2's compared to what DL carried on ATL-TLV, probably MIA, FLL, PBI, MCO then LAX, SFO and a bunch of 1's and 2's

My whole argument is that since ATL-TLV failed, I'm skeptical whether ORD or IAD would be successful, particularly when you value the incremental traffic generated by the new routes not currently on EWR-TLV. If I had to pick though, IAD-TLV would do better than ORD mainly due to a larger front cabin, better connections and the gov't traffic; however, ORD-TLV would likely be less cannibalistic to EWR-TLV
We will ride this thunderbird, silver shadows on the earth, a thousand leagues away our land of birth... -Captain Bruce
 
washingtonian
Posts: 749
Joined: Sat Sep 04, 2010 5:56 pm

RE: UA/CO To TLV From IAD/ORD?

Fri Dec 02, 2011 2:44 am

Here's a question for everyone. Do United and Lufthansa split all revenues from the North Atlantic? So if a passengers books IAD-FRA-TLV, do they share revenue from that with United?

Quoting boilerla (Reply 29):

I can see them doing what they did with the MAN and DUB flights--moving one frequency from EWR to IAD

Yup, I've thought this too. I think IAD-TLV will happen sooner or later, perhaps with a 787.

Quoting gigneil (Reply 38):
Second off, TLV is just not a premium route.

Disagree. I'm sure it's pretty premium heavy for United out of NYC. Might not be from Chicago, but what routes are premium heavy out of Chicago besides London and maybe some of the Asian flights?

Quoting TOMMY767 (Reply 10):
There are some sources that say that UA was looking to operate SFO-TLV with CO metal, but that never panned out (for obvious reasons.)

Why's that? What are these obvious reasons?!