Norwegian737
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DL Taking Over AF Flights Between Europe And USA

Wed Nov 30, 2011 12:15 pm

A while ago I read that Delta Air Lines are to take over Air France's flights between Chicago and Paris. And then I also read that Delta will be taking over Air France's flights between Seattle and Paris from March 2012. Why is this? They're both airline partners in SkyTeam, so what's the difference if Delta flies passengers from Paris to Chicago or Seattle, instead of Air France?
 
bobnwa
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RE: DL Taking Over AF Flights Between Europe And USA

Wed Nov 30, 2011 12:40 pm

Quoting Norwegian737 (Thread starter):
Quoting Norwegian737 (Thread starter):
A while ago I read that Delta Air Lines are to take over Air France's flights between Chicago and Paris. And then I also read that Delta will be taking over Air France's flights between Seattle and Paris from March 2012. Why is this? They're both airline partners in SkyTeam, so what's the difference if Delta flies passengers from Paris to Chicago or Seattle, instead of Air France?


In short, there is no difference between either AF or DL flying a transatlantic flight since they have joint venture for all trans-atlantic flights where they share in any profits or expenses.Doesn't make any difference who the aircraft actually belongs to. Same as LH or UA to Frankfort or AA and BA to London
 
Norwegian737
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RE: DL Taking Over AF Flights Between Europe And USA

Wed Nov 30, 2011 12:42 pm

OK, that makes sense, but why do they even bother doing this then, when AF is already flying these routes?
 
PH-BFA
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RE: DL Taking Over AF Flights Between Europe And USA

Wed Nov 30, 2011 12:44 pm

Quoting Norwegian737 (Reply 2):
OK, that makes sense, but why do they even bother doing this then, when AF is already flying these routes?

probably because delta has lower operating costs = more profit to be shared?
 
petera380
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RE: DL Taking Over AF Flights Between Europe And USA

Wed Nov 30, 2011 12:47 pm

But the service on either AF or KLM is better then DL I'm afraid.
 
BestWestern
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RE: DL Taking Over AF Flights Between Europe And USA

Wed Nov 30, 2011 12:54 pm

The Delta service has improved of late.

You may also find that DL has aircraft more suited to the route profile and optimal departure timing.
You are 100 times more likely to catch a cold on a flight than an average person!
 
UAL777UK
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RE: DL Taking Over AF Flights Between Europe And USA

Wed Nov 30, 2011 12:54 pm

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 1):
Doesn't make any difference who the aircraft actually belongs to.

Except of course for onboard servece that could be hugely different.
 
Norwegian737
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RE: DL Taking Over AF Flights Between Europe And USA

Wed Nov 30, 2011 1:00 pm

Quoting PH-BFA (Reply 3):

Yeah, if that's the case, then it makes perfect sense that DL takes over these flights. More profit = more to share.
Are there other flights like this, other than ORD and SEA, where DL will take over for AF?

Quoting petera380 (Reply 4):

That's true...
Based on my experience, DL is not the worst (not as bad as my experiences with trans-Atlantic flights with UA), but still not as good as KL or other European airlines. I guess if they still make more money doing it this way, that's more important than seat comfort and services on board...
 
icarus75
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RE: DL Taking Over AF Flights Between Europe And USA

Wed Nov 30, 2011 1:28 pm

Quoting ual777uk (Reply 6):
Except of course for onboard servece that could be hugely different.

Last July, because of an AF strike (maintenance people), my flight to ATL from CDG has been done by DL.

I was originally booked with AF in Premium Economy and I ended up in Economy, exit row.

I can say that the service with DL flight attendant was absolutely stunning and I experienced the same on an ATL-LAX flight!

In many ways, DL was far more better than AF!!!!
Flying is amazing!
 
goldorak
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RE: DL Taking Over AF Flights Between Europe And USA

Wed Nov 30, 2011 1:29 pm

ORD : AF metal is back on the route from end march.
You have also examples of DL flights which went to AF : DL dropped all CDG-JFK flights for quite a while (now they are back with one daily flight). DTW was transferred to AF (DL will operate a 2nd daily seasonal flight next summer).

This being said, I don't like also to see AF replaced by DL and it will be the case until they finally retrofit their crappy 763 they have to CDG and until they continue to serve horrible food and wine in Y (for the wine, I'm referring to these 1L carton bottle of wine they use - what a shame !!! ).
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: DL Taking Over AF Flights Between Europe And USA

Wed Nov 30, 2011 1:59 pm

Within the agreement of the Joint Venture, there are many complex requirements regarding the balance of ASMs between the carriers.

With the reduction in DL flights into secondary European markets this winter, plus AF adding larger aircraft like the A380, some flights needed to shift to DL in order to keep the ASMs within balance between the carriers.

This is a very simplistic view of why they shift.

There are reasons such as financially, operational, and marketing reasons why they may shift to get the most appropriate aircraft on a given route.
 
Norwegian737
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RE: DL Taking Over AF Flights Between Europe And USA

Wed Nov 30, 2011 2:02 pm

I have never flown Air France on intercontinental flights, so I can't really say much about it. I have, however, flown both Delta and United, as well as some European carriers, on trans-Atlantic flights, and overall I must say that service and comfort onboard has been significantly better on the European carriers than the American ones. Which is kind of interesting, as there are so many operators and flights on the trans-Atlantic flights, that you would think that the different companies would keep up the competition by offering service and comfort on a competitive level, in order to get passengers. Maybe that's why many European carriers have bigger airplanes on their US routes, than American carriers have on the Europe routes?
 
Superfly
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RE: DL Taking Over AF Flights Between Europe And USA

Wed Nov 30, 2011 2:11 pm

So if someone books a flight on the Air France website, will it say in the flight details that the flight will be operated by Delta? Or will they find out once they arrive at the gate after they already bought their ticket?
I would be really angry if I specifically wanted to fly on an Air France A340, A380 or 747 and then end up on a Delta 767.
Bring back the Concorde
 
georgiaame
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RE: DL Taking Over AF Flights Between Europe And USA

Wed Nov 30, 2011 2:25 pm

Quoting PH-BFA (Reply 3):
But the service on either AF or KLM is better then DL I'm afraid.
Quoting PH-BFA (Reply 3):
The Delta service has improved of late.

I don't think there is any question about either statement. Delta's business elite service, in MHO is unquestionably and dramatically improved of late, and I think is actually better than that of KLM. It's very subjective. Delta's wine selection in BE is much better than either KLM or AF, but it is swill in the back and they charge between meal service. Service and food up front on AF is very superior to both, and food/champagne in cattle class is also significantly better than what you would get on Delta, free flowing until gone. I have no opinion regarding a comparison with KLM.

As for on the ground: Hartsfield Airport is a delight to use at every level. CDG is beautiful to look at, and a horror to use. Schiphol today isn't the Schiphol of 20 years ago. Actually, it is, only bigger, and and more difficult to navigate. It works, but it isn't Hartsfield. New York/JFK is probably worse than Crotone, Italy, and marginally better than Novosibirsk in Siberia. Best avoided whenever possible.

And then there are the ticket prices. Code shares on any of them tend to be significantly lower flying the other guy's metal. I'm doing a mileage run next weekend. AZ e-ticket, $830 RT, ATL-FCO-LHR-AMS-ATL. Delta metal NS to Rome, AZ metal into London, KLM metal LHR-AMS-ATL. Delta wanted about $1300 for the run, AF $1600, KLM about $1400, booked via Orbitz. I'm flying for the miles, not the comfort level. I took the cheapest venue.

My bottom line: I love AF service, front or back, but I'm not enthralled by their prices or CDG transit. I hope they do not disappear from Atlanta (not likely - they usually fly in from CDG with 777 or 747 service, packed). If it's a choice between AF or DL, all else being equal, it's a no-brainer: AF.
"Trust, but verify!" An old Russian proverb, quoted often by a modern American hero
 
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kgaiflyer
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RE: DL Taking Over AF Flights Between Europe And USA

Wed Nov 30, 2011 2:28 pm

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 5):
The Delta service has improved of late.

You may also find that DL has aircraft more suited to the route profile and optimal departure timing.

I don't think so. Brand new A380 service at IAD and JFK will be replaced with tatty, 20-year-old former NWA 744s ?

At least at IAD -- known as Air France's most profitable US station -- watch as the passengers -- me among them -- fly the coup.   
 
B747forever
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RE: DL Taking Over AF Flights Between Europe And USA

Wed Nov 30, 2011 2:29 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 12):
So if someone books a flight on the Air France website, will it say in the flight details that the flight will be operated by Delta? Or will they find out once they arrive at the gate after they already bought their ticket?
I would be really angry if I specifically wanted to fly on an Air France A340, A380 or 747 and then end up on a Delta 767.

Nope, it is stated on their website, at least on flights I have looked at.
Work Hard, Fly Right
 
b6a322
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RE: DL Taking Over AF Flights Between Europe And USA

Wed Nov 30, 2011 2:52 pm

I think another thing to keep in mind is the onboard product - if I'm not mistaken, and depending on what kind of metal they're using, DL has a full flat bed in BizElite, whereas AF does not. True, AF has an F product, but I've been on a fairly large number of flights to and from europe (not just on AF) where First class runs empty or only 1-2 seats occupied - and it might make more sense to place these aircraft where there is a higher F demand.
The content I post are my own thoughts, nothing more. :)
 
Superfly
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RE: DL Taking Over AF Flights Between Europe And USA

Wed Nov 30, 2011 3:06 pm

Quoting B747forever (Reply 15):
Nope, it is stated on their website, at least on flights I have looked at.

  
"Nope"
So you're saying that Air France does NOT mention if the flight is carried by Delta?
Bring back the Concorde
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: DL Taking Over AF Flights Between Europe And USA

Wed Nov 30, 2011 3:08 pm

Again, they are doing this to rebalance the operating share between DL-KLM-AF.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 12):
So if someone books a flight on the Air France website, will it say in the flight details that the flight will be operated by Delta? Or will they find out once they arrive at the gate after they already bought their ticket?
I would be really angry if I specifically wanted to fly on an Air France A340, A380 or 747 and then end up on a Delta 767.

The website clearly lists the operating carrier when a flight is purchased. In the event the flight changes and is being operated by a different carrier, the passenger will be contacted (assuming they have contact info on file email/phone) and informed of the change. It will also appear on their intererary when they log-in.

The passenger has the right to a change or refund, should they not want to fly on a given carrier. This is true whether it is a change in airline or even a Delta Connection partner. They simply have to ask to do so even if not initially offered the change. In reality the majority of passenger will accept the change and just go on their way.

Quoting georgiaame (Reply 13):
I don't think there is any question about either statement. Delta's business elite service, in MHO is unquestionably and dramatically improved of late, and I think is actually better than that of KLM. It's very subjective. Delta's wine selection in BE is much better than either KLM or AF, but it is swill in the back and they charge between meal service. Service and food up front on AF is very superior to both, and food/champagne in cattle class is also significantly better than what you would get on Delta, free flowing until gone. I have no opinion regarding a comparison with KLM.

The difference in onboard product is highly subjective, and both carriers are making an effort to close the gap.

They aren't dumb either, they will put the most appropriate aircraft on a given route. Hence why you see, and will continue to see the AF A380 on JFK, or why DL is putting a 763ER on ORD. Matching capacity to demand and putting a competitive product where it is appropriate.

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 14):
I don't think so. Brand new A380 service at IAD and JFK will be replaced with tatty, 20-year-old former NWA 744s ?

Then next year the 744 will have brand new interiors and be on par with everyone else.

DL isn't putting 744s into JFK-CDG anyways.

NW & KLM swapped routes for years under their JV, what DL-AF/KLM are doing is nothing new. It is part of the benefit to customers to have more options and a much more integrated experience when traveling between the US and Europe, including connections to domestic flights.
 
icarus75
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RE: DL Taking Over AF Flights Between Europe And USA

Wed Nov 30, 2011 3:12 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 12):
So if someone books a flight on the Air France website, will it say in the flight details that the flight will be operated by Delta?

Yes. The flight operator and aircraft type is detailed in the flight details on AF website at least.
Flying is amazing!
 
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mayor
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RE: DL Taking Over AF Flights Between Europe And USA

Wed Nov 30, 2011 3:25 pm

Quoting icarus75 (Reply 19):
Yes. The flight operator and aircraft type is detailed in the flight details on AF website at least.

As it is on Delta.com
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
B747forever
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RE: DL Taking Over AF Flights Between Europe And USA

Wed Nov 30, 2011 3:26 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 17):


"Nope"
So you're saying that Air France does NOT mention if the flight is carried by Delta?

Oops, misread your post. They do list if it is operated by another carrier.
Work Hard, Fly Right
 
Superfly
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RE: DL Taking Over AF Flights Between Europe And USA

Wed Nov 30, 2011 3:33 pm

Thanks for the info everyone.
Yes I know most people wouldn't care but many of us airline buffs do care about that kind of stuff.
Bring back the Concorde
 
YULWinterSkies
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RE: DL Taking Over AF Flights Between Europe And USA

Wed Nov 30, 2011 6:32 pm

Quoting goldorak (Reply 9):
DTW was transferred to AF (DL will operate a 2nd daily seasonal flight next summer).

I actually don't recall DL ever operating DTW-CDG. Maybe AF came in when NW stepped out, but that was before the NW-DL merger, and if I'm not mistaken, before the joint venture. It actually surprises me why AF is the one flying the route now, but hey, I'm taking advantage of it (AF + not a 777!) as much as possible over MSP-CDG DL 767 service, my other SkyTeam option across the Pond for my occasional travels to Paris or beyond.

Quoting petera380 (Reply 4):
But the service on either AF or KLM is better then DL I'm afraid.

It depends what you're comparing. Food: AF is better, but DL beats KL without a doubt, unless KL improved since 2009. Seating: AF seats are generally better, IFE is great, DL's and KL's IFE is so-so, however, things change with AF + 777 (& 744 per lack of PTV). And DL has much of their fleet still PTV-less. Oh, and all of this is very subjective anyway.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 12):
So if someone books a flight on the Air France website, will it say in the flight details that the flight will be operated by Delta? Or will they find out once they arrive at the gate after they already bought their ticket?
I would be really angry if I specifically wanted to fly on an Air France A340, A380 or 747 and then end up on a Delta 767.

yes both AF and DL websites are very clear about it. if the flight # has 4 digits, it is operated by the partner, if it has 2 or 3 digits, it is operated by the actual airline to whom you buy the flight (with perhaps, exceptions?). Changes have usually been announced months in advance (SEA and ORD switching next March, etc...), so for most people's bookings, there won't be any changes. Unless AF swaps your A380 for a 777 at the last minute.  
Quoting PH-BFA (Reply 3):
probably because delta has lower operating costs = more profit to be shared?

Right, I assume some of it has to do with the unbalanced euro/$ exchange rate, and also that AF can fly their metal to much more lucrative destinations than the USA right now, which, with a few exceptions, are loss-making routes at the moment. Plus probably some painful restructuring in the past during ch. 11.
Also, important to note that DL has swarms of 767s and 757s for the thin routes and/or those where little cargo is carried, while AF's smallest machine is the A330-200, fitted in a quite low density configuration, to add to the problem of the struggling J market. And I think CDG is 767 and 757 only for DL, except for ATL if I'm correct. Also, ATL has always been a split between DL and AF, which has always surprised me.
When I doubt... go running!
 
laca773
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RE: DL Taking Over AF Flights Between Europe And USA

Wed Nov 30, 2011 6:33 pm

Quoting georgiaame (Reply 13):
I don't think there is any question about either statement. Delta's business elite service, in MHO is unquestionably and dramatically improved of late, and I think is actually better than that of KLM. It's very subjective. Delta's wine selection in BE is much better than either KLM or AF, but it is swill in the back and they charge between meal service. Service and food up front on AF is very superior to both, and food/champagne in cattle class is also significantly better than what you would get on Delta, free flowing until gone. I have no opinion regarding a comparison with KLM.

I believe DL is making a huge effort to improve the soft product even in Y. Hats off to DL for making the effort and spending the money to modernize their cabins hard product beyond the majority of their US competition.

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 14):

I don't think so. Brand new A380 service at IAD and JFK will be replaced with tatty, 20-year-old former NWA 744s ?

At least at IAD -- known as Air France's most profitable US station -- watch as the passengers -- me among them -- fly the coup.

What? Why would DL take over AF's most profitable US station? This statement makes no sense what so ever, kgaiflyer.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: DL Taking Over AF Flights Between Europe And USA

Wed Nov 30, 2011 6:57 pm

Quoting YULWinterSkies (Reply 23):
Also, important to note that DL has swarms of 767s and 757s for the thin routes and/or those where little cargo is carried, while AF's smallest machine is the A330-200, fitted in a quite low density configuration, to add to the problem of the struggling J market. And I think CDG is 767 and 757 only for DL, except for ATL if I'm correct. Also, ATL has always been a split between DL and AF, which has always surprised me.

That is the key advantage of such. They can utilize DL's smaller metal on thinner routes that do not need large J cabins and/or are a better capacity-match for the route.
 
chopchop767
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RE: DL Taking Over AF Flights Between Europe And USA

Wed Nov 30, 2011 7:06 pm

Quoting laca773 (Reply 24):
I believe DL is making a huge effort to improve the soft product even in Y. Hats off to DL for making the effort and spending the money to modernize their cabins hard product beyond the majority of their US competition.

I would venture to say that all of the US airlines have made efforts to bring their in flight Y product up to the standards of their Euro partners; not just DL. US and UA have made improvements to their Y cabins.

That being said, especially in the catering department, there is still plenty of room for improvement. I recall, my most memorable experience in Y on trans-Atlantic was AF from CDG to BOS. Blankets, pillows, ife, great food and actual glassware and silverware made it feel almost like J class; that and the flight was almost empty  

Still a little disappointing to see AF depart SEA and ORD. Haven't heard about IAD; frankly, that doesn't make sense.
this year: nap, lgw, fra, dub, fco, add, jib, muc, iad, sea, dca, bos, cdg, ist, bah, prg, ord, hsv, cmn
 
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kgaiflyer
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RE: DL Taking Over AF Flights Between Europe And USA

Wed Nov 30, 2011 8:50 pm

Quoting laca773 (Reply 24):
What? Why would DL take over AF's most profitable US station? This statement makes no sense what so ever, kgaiflyer.

It makes no sense to me either -- yet, that's what the fanboys are insisting.

Why would you deliberately drive clients away in what is essentially someone else's hub?
 
Av8rDAL
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RE: DL Taking Over AF Flights Between Europe And USA

Wed Nov 30, 2011 9:00 pm

Quoting petera380 (Reply 4):
But the service on either AF or KLM is better then DL I'm afraid.


Not in the back. I had a horrid experience on AF in Y, CDG-YUL, last December. I would have much rather flown DL home to ATL, but I had to stop in Montreal for a night for a meeting.

777-300, 4 hour delay leaving CDG due to weather.

Worst part: Tiny seat. The seat width is severely reduced due to AF's 10 abreast as opposed to DL's 9 abreast configuration on the 777. I'm not a big guy, but if you get stuck next to a larger person, then you are going to be leaning into the aisle, into your neighbor, or you will be squashed into the window.

IFE was lackluster - the PTVs were old and slow and the programming wasn't that good. Delta's new Panasonic system is much better on Boeing metal and the Airbus system on their A330s is not as good, but better than AF.

AF does have an edge in catering though...
Maintain thine airspeed, lest the Earth rise up and smite thee.
 
MaranoERAU
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RE: DL Taking Over AF Flights Between Europe And USA

Wed Nov 30, 2011 9:06 pm

Why hasn't DL picked up the EWR-CDG flight yet. AF is pulling out as of March. The flight was always heavy, so why let the slot go. They can put a 763 or even a 752 on the route.
 
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kgaiflyer
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RE: DL Taking Over AF Flights Between Europe And USA

Wed Nov 30, 2011 9:26 pm

Quoting Av8rDAL (Reply 28):
Not in the back. I had a horrid experience on AF in Y, CDG-YUL, last December. I would have much rather flown DL home to ATL, but I had to stop in Montreal for a night for a meeting.

777-300, 4 hour delay leaving CDG due to weather.

Worst part: Tiny seat. The seat width is severely reduced due to AF's 10 abreast as opposed to DL's 9 abreast configuration on the 777. I'm not a big guy, but if you get stuck next to a larger person, then you are going to be leaning into the aisle, into your neighbor, or you will be squashed into the window.

IFE was lackluster - the PTVs were old and slow and the programming wasn't that good. Delta's new Panasonic system is much better on Boeing metal and the Airbus system on their A330s is not as good, but better than AF.

True, if you speak no french at all, don't enjoy world beat music, and always see the latest movies as soon as they are released -- then there's not a lot to do on AF's IFE.

From IAD we're all readers (DC has more Kindles per square inch than any other city in the US) so it's not such a problem. And westbound, we tend to completely buy-out the onboard duty-free store (a good Washingtonian has at least 10 pairs of designer sunglasses    ).
 
NASCARAirforce
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RE: DL Taking Over AF Flights Between Europe And USA

Wed Nov 30, 2011 10:41 pm

Quoting goldorak (Reply 9):
DTW was transferred to AF (DL will operate a 2nd daily seasonal flight next summer).
Quoting YULWinterSkies (Reply 23):
I actually don't recall DL ever operating DTW-CDG. Maybe AF came in when NW stepped out, but that was before the NW-DL merger,

DAL I don't believe ever operated DTW-CDG. Since NWA was also Skyteam before the Delta takeover, Air France took over for NWA on the DTW-CDG service. I believe Air France has been flying to DTW since 2006, maybe earlier in 2005. If I am not mistaken they were operating both NW and AF for a while on DTW-CDG, both with A330s - though AF was a 200, NW was a 300.
 
Viscount724
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RE: DL Taking Over AF Flights Between Europe And USA

Wed Nov 30, 2011 10:57 pm

Quoting YULWinterSkies (Reply 23):
Seating: AF seats are generally better,

Not on AF's 777s with cramped 10-abreast Y seating. All US (and Canadian) 777 operators, including DL, are 9-abreast.
 
Carls
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RE: DL Taking Over AF Flights Between Europe And USA

Wed Nov 30, 2011 11:21 pm

Quoting Norwegian737 (Reply 7):

As a passanger I consider AF and KLM an step below Lufthansa, Swiss, BA. I would put the among Iberia, Alitalia, TAP etc. AF groupe is much more bigger than IB, AZ but their service are more or less the same, way below LH, LX and BA.
 
RobertS975
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RE: DL Taking Over AF Flights Between Europe And USA

Wed Nov 30, 2011 11:27 pm

Quoting b6a322 (Reply 16):
I think another thing to keep in mind is the onboard product - if I'm not mistaken, and depending on what kind of metal they're using, DL has a full flat bed in BizElite, whereas AF does not.

The DL 767-300s are being upgraded to this slowly but surely. But right now, most DL 767-300s are not full flat in BizElite.
All 767-400s are converted as are all of DL 777s.
 
timpdx
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RE: DL Taking Over AF Flights Between Europe And USA

Wed Nov 30, 2011 11:57 pm

I flew Delta SEA-AMS last summer and it was, indeed, a very decent product on the A332, even in the back of the plane. I dare say even a step above my LH flight in '09.
 
milesrich
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RE: DL Taking Over AF Flights Between Europe And USA

Thu Dec 01, 2011 12:03 am

Quoting georgiaame (Reply 13):
As for on the ground: Hartsfield Airport is a delight to use at every level. CDG is beautiful to look at, and a horror to use. Schiphol today isn't the Schiphol of 20 years ago. Actually, it is, only bigger, and and more difficult to navigate. It works, but it isn't Hartsfield. New York/JFK is probably worse than Crotone, Italy, and marginally better than Novosibirsk in Siberia. Best avoided whenever possible.

When ATL's new International Terminal Opens, then it might be a delight to use, but while departing ATL is a delight, arriving their internationally is anything but. The walk at Terminal E after a long flight is substantial, and then its to customs, which is nothing to write home about, but the worst thing is that if Atlanta is your final destination, you have to recheck your luggage and then go to the domestic baggage claim at ATL to claim your luggage and the delay can be long. In otherwords, arriving on an international flight at Hartsfield is no picnic. On the other hand, I have always found DL's international service to be very good, and in business, it's outstanding.
 
rjm777ual
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RE: DL Taking Over AF Flights Between Europe And USA

Thu Dec 01, 2011 12:50 am

Does anybody know if they will take over the KIAD-LFPG flight? I really want the A380 to stay at Dulles.
Greetings from Dulles!
 
Braniff747SP
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RE: DL Taking Over AF Flights Between Europe And USA

Thu Dec 01, 2011 3:29 am

Cant read the whole thread now, but what will happen to the Tahiti service?
The 747 will always be the TRUE queen of the skies!
 
gigneil
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RE: DL Taking Over AF Flights Between Europe And USA

Thu Dec 01, 2011 3:51 am

Quoting ual777uk (Reply 6):
Except of course for onboard servece that could be hugely different.

I'm sorry, I don't find that it really is. Other than free flowing wine, which isn't really that free flowing, I've found AF to be very very comparable (in coach) to what you might get on Delta.

NS
 
N62NA
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RE: DL Taking Over AF Flights Between Europe And USA

Thu Dec 01, 2011 4:23 am

Quoting MaranoERAU (Reply 29):
Why hasn't DL picked up the EWR-CDG flight yet. AF is pulling out as of March. The flight was always heavy, so why let the slot go. They can put a 763 or even a 752 on the route.

Anybody?
 
laca773
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RE: DL Taking Over AF Flights Between Europe And USA

Thu Dec 01, 2011 4:43 am

Quoting MaranoERAU (Reply 29):
Why hasn't DL picked up the EWR-CDG flight yet. AF is pulling out as of March. The flight was always heavy, so why let the slot go. They can put a 763 or even a 752 on the route.

I don't see AF-KL/DL allowing EWR-CDG to close for ST. Not ever. If AF isn't going to operate the route this coming Summer, DL will for sure pick it up. That doesn't make any sense at all.

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 27):
Quoting laca773 (Reply 24):
What? Why would DL take over AF's most profitable US station? This statement makes no sense what so ever, kgaiflyer.

It makes no sense to me either -- yet, that's what the fanboys are insisting.

Why would you deliberately drive clients away in what is essentially someone else's hub?

This is gossip, rumors and dillusions of wanna be airline owners.

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 38):
Cant read the whole thread now, but what will happen to the Tahiti service?

This thread has nothing to do with PPT.

Quoting gigneil (Reply 39):

I'm sorry, I don't find that it really is. Other than free flowing wine, which isn't really that free flowing, I've found AF to be very very comparable (in coach) to what you might get on Delta.

NS

Actually, it's quite a bit different. AF generally offers a 3-4 course meal in Y depending on the length for the primary meal and the second meal is etiher 2-3 courses. DL is basically two at this point and toss in the packaged brownie for comfort.

Quoting chopchop767 (Reply 26):
would venture to say that all of the US airlines have made efforts to bring their in flight Y product up to the standards of their Euro partners; not just DL. US and UA have made improvements to their Y cabins.

That being said, especially in the catering department, there is still plenty of room for improvement. I recall, my most memorable experience in Y on trans-Atlantic was AF from CDG to BOS. Blankets, pillows, ife, great food and actual glassware and silverware made it feel almost like J class; that and the flight was almost empty

I wasn't comparing US airlines to their European counterparts. I'm talking about DL and their competitors in the U.S. period. Perhaps, US has improved their inflight Y cabin and service, on the other hand, UA has done anything but improve it. They've cut it even further. I hope the CO people attempt to improve their inflight service overall.
 
FlyASAGuy2005
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RE: DL Taking Over AF Flights Between Europe And USA

Thu Dec 01, 2011 6:12 am

Quoting petera380 (Reply 4):
But the service on either AF or KLM is better then DL I'm afraid.



That is a very subjective statement and you will see, even in this thread, that opinions will vary on our sister across the pond vs. Mother D.

Quoting icarus75 (Reply 8):
I can say that the service with DL flight attendant was absolutely stunning and I experienced the same on an ATL-LAX flight!

In many ways, DL was far more better than AF!!!!



   I tell folks to not knock things until they've tried it. Let me tell you that, traveling in Y as a non-rev on international routes is dreaded. Not because the service is poor but because you get use to flying business. There are no "free upgrades"- at least on DL. You have to either use a precious system-wide upgrade or pay for the J seat with quite a bit of miles. That or be lucky enough to be booked on a flight that is oversold in J and they move you up front to accommodate pax in the back. Anyway, the point is it's much easier to sit in 1A on ATL-MAD than ATL-LGA and you get use to it BUT I did ride in the back LHR-JFK some months back and it was my first time in int'l Y since 2006 and the service was great! The F/As were constantly in the aisles either passing out water or coffee and they made quite a few full beverage cart runs in between meals.

Quoting georgiaame (Reply 13):
but it is swill in the back and they charge between meal service



Not true. For at least 12 months now, if not more, beer and wine is free throughout the entire flight, not just at mealtime. They also recently cut their "half-cart" service on all int'l flights so now every time they are in the aisles serving drinks, it's not just soft drinks that's available.

Bottom line is that PSU has the technical aspect of it correct. Each partner is to maintain a certain amount of seats, contributing to the whole pie. This is all you're seeing. Come 2013 (12 is just about set) if DL inches back into some markets, you may see some of these flights revert back to AF.
What gets measured gets done.
 
JAAlbert
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RE: DL Taking Over AF Flights Between Europe And USA

Thu Dec 01, 2011 6:13 am

Quoting ual777uk (Reply 6):
Except of course for onboard servece that could be hugely different.

The code sharing drives me crazy. When I book on AF, it's because I want to try the AF experience. When I book DL, its because I want DL, not KLM or somebody else.

That being said, between JFK and CDG, I'd go AF if they've got the 380 on the route, but would take DL if the AF flight has the 10 abreast 777
 
Norwegian737
Topic Author
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RE: DL Taking Over AF Flights Between Europe And USA

Thu Dec 01, 2011 8:01 am

Thanks for all the replies so far!

It's an interesting debate going on!
It seems like Delta and Air France has a very close co-operation, and therefore utilizing the very best airplane fit (considering cargo and pax) for each route, regardless of who flies it.

When it comes to on-board service, Delta has improved a lot, at least from my experience, and from what some of you also have experienced. But still, after living in the US for some years, my best experience with trans-Atlantic flights has been with European carriers, where my favorites has been SAS, Lufthansa and British Airways. However, the development we're seeing in the big American airlines, as well as upgrading and expansions of airport hubs, is positive, and it's a good sign showing that the airlines doesn't just count seats and cargo space, but also the level of comfort and service on board, so they can compete with other airlines on the same/similar routes.

But another interesting observation I've made is that a lot of the airports in Europe are a lot more 'entertaining' to be at, than the ones I've been at in the US. ATL has been mentioned in this discussion; I've only been there once, but doesn't remember much, so this might not be the case there, but other big airport I've been to (SEA, IAD, IAH, ORD, DEN) doesn't really have much to offer, compared to, even smaller airports in Europe. For example, when flying from the Int'l terminal in Seattle, the duty-free there is smaller than the one we have here in Stavanger (population 200,000) , yet Seattle has flights to both Asia and Europe. There could be many reasons for this, one being items purchased in the duty free in Norway and many other European countries are a lot cheaper than if you purchased them in a regular store, and therefore creates greater demand for duty free itmes, whereas in the US duty-free prices aren't that much less than regular store prices. Any other thoughts?

I think this case (DL taking over AF routes) shows perhaps the strenghts of airline alliances, where both parts gains a profit, but the airline utilizes the planes (regardless of who flies it) that fits each route the best. As long as the difference in service isn't too big, resulting in customer dissatisfaction when airlines switch operator like this, it doesn't really matter, and in the bottom line, the airlines with its alliance partners, can offer a greater route network, at the same level of service and comfort.
 
FlyASAGuy2005
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RE: DL Taking Over AF Flights Between Europe And USA

Thu Dec 01, 2011 12:19 pm

Quoting Norwegian737 (Reply 44):

It also helps that DL has had a long and storied relationship with AF, long ATI/JV and likewise with NW and KLM. It was a perfect marriage of sorts..along with route colusion, there's been a lot of back office stuff going on too like combining administrative offices in key cities such as NYC and Paris and working out of many of the same RES/CTOs. They're really trying to make the experience seemless and save money where possible.
What gets measured gets done.
 
BoeingGuy
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RE: DL Taking Over AF Flights Between Europe And USA

Thu Dec 01, 2011 3:40 pm

Quoting timpdx (Reply 35):
I flew Delta SEA-AMS last summer and it was, indeed, a very decent product on the A332, even in the back of the plane. I dare say even a step above my LH flight in '09.

I remember that pre-merger, while NW had a very poor reputation for their domestic product, their international product was considered pretty good. I did SEA-NRT and SEA-AMS in coach on NW shortly before the merger and it was an excellent coach product. Presumably that's still true on DL, as this poster indicates.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 32):
Not on AF's 777s with cramped 10-abreast Y seating.

Agreed. Business class on the AF 77W was nice, of course, but coach is putrid. I'd far prefer a DL 763 in coach.
As I mentioned in a previous thread on the topic, I don't view the switch to a DL 763 on SEA-CDG to be that bad. At least the DL domestic 763s in coach are an excellent product so I assume it will be the same internationally. It's certainly better for those who want to credit miles to the AS account, in which the AF partnership is VERY restrictive.
 
laca773
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RE: DL Taking Over AF Flights Between Europe And USA

Thu Dec 01, 2011 4:00 pm

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 42):
Bottom line is that PSU has the technical aspect of it correct. Each partner is to maintain a certain amount of seats, contributing to the whole pie. This is all you're seeing. Come 2013 (12 is just about set) if DL inches back into some markets, you may see some of these flights revert back to AF.

Thanks for the explanation, FlyASAGuy2005. This makes sense now. Leaned something new today   .
 
cokepopper
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RE: DL Taking Over AF Flights Between Europe And USA

Thu Dec 01, 2011 6:13 pm

Quoting laca773 (Reply 41):

I don't see AF-KL/DL allowing EWR-CDG to close for ST. Not ever. If AF isn't going to operate the route this coming Summer, DL will for sure pick it up. That doesn't make any sense at all.

I hope this is true. Anxiously awaiting an announcement.
 
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par13del
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RE: DL Taking Over AF Flights Between Europe And USA

Thu Dec 01, 2011 6:21 pm

Quoting petera380 (Reply 4):
But the service on either AF or KLM is better then DL I'm afraid.

The issue from the airline perspective is the amount of profit to be made, if the majority of pax on these flight originate in the US they in general would not be complaining, if the majority are from Europe they will complain.
Probably need to see the loads but I'm betting that AF/KLM is turning over the low hanging fruit to DL, their high yield routes will stay.