adipasqu
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737 Max To Be Built In Renton

Wed Nov 30, 2011 6:42 pm

From Flightblogger:

Just breaking now, the Seattle Times reports that the IAM and Boeing have reached a sweeping deal to place the 737 Max final assembly line in Renton, having secured a new four-year contract as well as a settlement of the National Labor Relations Board complaint against the company's second 787 final assembly line in Charleston.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...895323_boeingmax01.html?cmpid=2727

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/fl...reaking-737-max-to-be-built-i.html

[Edited 2011-11-30 10:42:46]

[Edited 2011-11-30 10:43:59]

[Edited 2011-11-30 10:45:21]
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kiwiandrew

737 Max To Be Built In Renton

Wed Nov 30, 2011 6:46 pm

I have to admit that I hadn't realised they were even considering building it elsewhere. Nice to see production stay in the 737's birthplace.
 
Ychocky
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737 Max To Be Built In Renton

Wed Nov 30, 2011 6:49 pm

Four year contract?

Will they be building the 737 MAX by then?
 
NYC777
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737 Max To Be Built In Renton

Wed Nov 30, 2011 7:24 pm

Quoting Ychocky (Reply 2):
Four year contract?

Will they be building the 737 MAX by then?

Yes they'll just be starting production.
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garpd
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737 Max To Be Built In Renton

Wed Nov 30, 2011 7:35 pm

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 3):
es they'll just be starting production.

You mean, that's when they plan to start production.
What Boeing plans and what happens hasn't exactly been similar of late!

[Edited 2011-11-30 11:35:57]
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Hamlet69
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737 Max To Be Built In Renton

Wed Nov 30, 2011 7:43 pm

I don't want to sound like I'm overly simplifying this, but this is probably one of the best pieces of news for Boeing all year. And I'm not talking about MAX production or the possible settlement of the NLRB case.

Reaching a new 4-year deal with the IAM nearly a year before the current contract expires is extraordinary! This avoids any last-minute bickering, in-fighting or tension. It grants more long-term planning by both Boeing and it's workforce. And most importantly, it provides one very crucial thing for whats shaping up to be a very busy 2012 - stability.

Congrats to both Boeing and the IAM. And ultimately, the biggest beneficiary - their customers!

Hamlet69
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F9Animal
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737 Max To Be Built In Renton

Wed Nov 30, 2011 7:46 pm

Just to be correct, this is not set in stone yet. It of course is a tentative agreement between Boeing and the Union. It is dependent on the ratification of the contract. If the members do not accept this, then it would be the first time in my pro union history that I would call them dumb. It is not a bad contract at all. 2% GWI for each year, 2-4% bonus potential, $5,000 signing bonus, and the 737 Max commitment by Boeing.

However, we must not jump the gun. Many of the members are still pissed at Boeing for the last strike, and Boeing did not play fair with the 787 Charleston gimmick. I doubt the membership will vote no to the contract, but we have seen crazier things these days.

Edit! Thought I would add one more tidbit. The Machinists Union told the members a few contracts back to accept the contract offer. Guess what? The membership voted no to the contract, and went on strike a few days later. Not even the union can convince their members. But, again, I am sure the membership will vote in favor of this contract. There are no takeaways, and it looks good to me!  Smile

[Edited 2011-11-30 11:49:01]
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lightsaber
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737 Max To Be Built In Renton

Wed Nov 30, 2011 8:00 pm

Quoting adipasqu (Thread starter):
well as a settlement of the National Labor Relations Board complaint against the company's second 787 final assembly line in Charleston.

Wow. I understand why Boeing wouldn't sign a new contract until that was resolved. Why leave that hanging? I'm surprised the union dropped their demands for the proposed contract. Perhaps sanity ruled today...

It is good to have this issue resolved. It will certainly help with 787 production.

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 1):
I have to admit that I hadn't realised they were even considering building it elsewhere.

Boeing had to shop around. If the current contract had expired and there was a strike it would have crippled 737MAX sales.

Quoting Hamlet69 (Reply 5):
Reaching a new 4-year deal with the IAM nearly a year before the current contract expires is extraordinary!

It is. I hope it is ratified. I would have been happier to see a longer term agreement into 737MAX production.

Lightsaber
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wn700driver
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737 Max To Be Built In Renton

Wed Nov 30, 2011 8:01 pm

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 1):

I have to admit that I hadn't realised they were even considering building it elsewhere. Nice to see production stay in the 737's birthplace.

Actually, it isn't. The first 737s were built over at Boeing field. Production was moved over to Renton only when there was enough space between the 727 & 707/720 lines.

Quoting garpd (Reply 4):

You mean, that's when they plan to start production.
What Boeing plans and what happens hasn't exactly been similar of late!

I don't think there's much to worry about this time. The 73MAX is not a brand new AC, does not require brand new assembly methods & practices, and above all, is not even close to as much at the mercy of suppliers & their issues as the 787 was/is. I'm not saying there will be no snags, but with as little "new ground" being broken here, it's unlikely that there will be anything like the problems the 787 had.
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scbriml
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737 Max To Be Built In Renton

Wed Nov 30, 2011 8:46 pm

TBH, this doesn't come as much of a surprise. The cost of building a new production line would have probably blown a business case that, not that long ago, Boeing was struggling to justify.
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seabosdca
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737 Max To Be Built In Renton

Wed Nov 30, 2011 9:01 pm

APA and AA pilots: Look and learn. This is how a union and a company can benefit each other.

Great news all around.
 
kiwiandrew

737 Max To Be Built In Renton

Wed Nov 30, 2011 9:11 pm

Quoting wn700driver (Reply 8):
Actually, it isn't. The first 737s were built over at Boeing field.

Thanks for that, I wasn't aware of that. That's one thing that is really great about this site, there is always someone who is able to shed a new light on almost any subject.
 
Flaps
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737 Max To Be Built In Renton

Wed Nov 30, 2011 9:23 pm

Sounds like a win/win for both parties. Hopefully the membership is in agreement and everyone involved can move on to a more predictable and rewarding future.
 
JoeCanuck
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737 Max To Be Built In Renton

Wed Nov 30, 2011 9:50 pm

This is, among other things, a result of Boeing building the 787 line in SC. The best deal for Boeing was always to keep 737 production in Renton but they've shown they will move production if they feel it's in their best long term interest.

The NLRB action was silly and would have gone nowhere.

Boeing made an offer they couldn't refuse...and they wisely took it. Smart move for everybody.
What the...?
 
cmf
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737 Max To Be Built In Renton

Wed Nov 30, 2011 10:00 pm

Quoting Hamlet69 (Reply 5):
Reaching a new 4-year deal with the IAM nearly a year before the current contract expires is extraordinary! This avoids any last-minute bickering, in-fighting or tension. It grants more long-term planning by both Boeing and it's workforce.

It is great to see them reaching agreements well before deadlines. A welcome change.

Quoting Hamlet69 (Reply 5):
Congrats to both Boeing and the IAM. And ultimately, the biggest beneficiary - their customers!

With all respect, I think the company, owners and labor are the biggest beneficiaries.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 7):
Boeing had to shop around. If the current contract had expired and there was a strike it would have crippled 737MAX sales.

I don't think so. You already need to wait multiple years before delivery. Everyone expects strikes to be short lived in that context so the delay would be an irritation but having to wait years for delivery is already more so.
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canoecarrier
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737 Max To Be Built In Renton

Wed Nov 30, 2011 10:09 pm

Quoting Hamlet69 (Reply 5):
I don't want to sound like I'm overly simplifying this, but this is probably one of the best pieces of news for Boeing all year. And I'm not talking about MAX production or the possible settlement of the NLRB case.

Reaching a new 4-year deal with the IAM nearly a year before the current contract expires is extraordinary!

I see this as the union knowing that Boeing in the past has and would open another line somewhere else in a right to work state in order to firm up production capacity. But, that said.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 7):
Boeing had to shop around. If the current contract had expired and there was a strike it would have crippled 737MAX sales.

If I was a Boeing customer for the MAX, I'd want to know that there wouldn't be any labor disruptions that could lead to delays. Even if Boeing moved production it could be perceived by their current and future customers as a potential delay in delivering orders. That's not to say that Boeing didn't consider moving some production elsewhere, but both sides benefit by this agreement.
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flightsimer
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737 Max To Be Built In Renton

Wed Nov 30, 2011 10:13 pm

Also confirmed in this article is that the 737 production will be reaching 42 a/c a month in Q1 2014. IIRC, up till now, it was only talk/studies of increasing the production rate north of 40 a/c. At least i havent seen anything that confirmed a production increase.
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Viscount724
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737 Max To Be Built In Renton

Wed Nov 30, 2011 10:18 pm

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 11):
Quoting wn700driver (Reply 8):
Actually, it isn't. The first 737s were built over at Boeing field.

Thanks for that, I wasn't aware of that. That's one thing that is really great about this site, there is always someone who is able to shed a new light on almost any subject.

If memory correct, the first 271 737s were built at BFI.
 
trijetsonly
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737 Max To Be Built In Renton

Wed Nov 30, 2011 11:21 pm

Why do you call this breaking news at all?
I don't know anyone who expected the MAX to be built elsewhere than in Renton.
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kanban
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737 Max To Be Built In Renton

Wed Nov 30, 2011 11:23 pm

Quoting wn700driver (Reply 8):
Actually, it isn't. The first 737s were built over at Boeing field. Production was moved over to Renton only when there was enough space between the 727 & 707/720 lines.



The 737 never shared the 707/720 FAL building, it moved to Renton after the 4-81/-82 build was built.. 727 went in one building and 737 the other...
 
redflyer
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737 Max To Be Built In Renton

Wed Nov 30, 2011 11:44 pm

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 13):
Boeing made an offer they couldn't refuse

They would have been stupid to have refused it. Nice to see the IAM playing by Boeing's rules for once. And now that the S.C. line issue is resolved, I'm sure Boeing execs will keep their sewers in check going forward. In the meantime, the IAM, in its unbridled greed, has let the camel's nose into the tent by letting the situation get so bad that Boeing now has a manufacturing facility outside of Washington. The MAX may well be the last pure Washington gravy train these guys feed off of so they might as well enjoy it while it lasts.
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kc135topboom
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737 Max To Be Built In Renton

Thu Dec 01, 2011 12:08 am

The Boeing/IAM contract extension, once approved by the rank and file, will be to September 2016.

I don't know if the job security portion of the contract actually puts the FAL in Renton. It says the 'manufactuering' of the MAX will be in the 'Puget Sound area'. The City of Renton is not mentioned.

Another portion of that same section garuntees the 'production' of the WBs in Everett.
 
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gegtim
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737 Max To Be Built In Renton

Thu Dec 01, 2011 12:24 am

We had actually bid for the 737 Max plant here in Spokane and was #2 to Renton. It would have still kept Boeing production in Washington State.

http://www.khq.com/story/16156315/bo...-rejects-spokane-bid-for-new-plant
 
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Stitch
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737 Max To Be Built In Renton

Thu Dec 01, 2011 12:31 am

Quoting scbriml (Reply 9):
TBH, this doesn't come as much of a surprise. The cost of building a new production line would have probably blown a business case that, not that long ago, Boeing was struggling to justify.

With the volume of not just the 737MAX but the NSA (which would surely have been built at the same factory), I am of the opinion that the capital costs of the line would have had little impact on the decision to put the factory somewhere else.



I echo the sentiments of those who have lauded Boeing and IAM management for forging this new agreement and I hope the IAM rank and file choose to ratify it. And here is hoping it's the start of better overall management and labor relations going forward.
 
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gegtim
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737 Max To Be Built In Renton

Thu Dec 01, 2011 12:52 am

I can only relate to unions in my own experiences with the ground handlers at GEG. If I walked into NWA ops during break time and the only person there was "busy" reading the newspaper I had better choose death than ask him a question. If a FBO fueler wanted to put balast fuel on a United 727 and needed someone to put power on the a/c, the response might be "It isn't my airplane."
 
steffenbn
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737 Max To Be Built In Renton

Thu Dec 01, 2011 1:01 am

Quoting garpd (Reply 4):
What Boeing plans and what happens hasn't exactly been similar of late!

Because Airbus as spot-on every time??

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adh214
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737 Max To Be Built In Renton

Thu Dec 01, 2011 1:39 am

They agreed to build the 737max in Renton but did they agree to not build it anywhere else? I kind of assumed they were considering two production sites. Does this agreement prevent them from opening a second line in sc or tx?

Andrew
 
BoeingGuy
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737 Max To Be Built In Renton

Thu Dec 01, 2011 1:46 am

Quoting gegtim (Reply 25):
I can only relate to unions in my own experiences with the ground handlers at GEG. If I walked into NWA ops during break time and the only person there was "busy" reading the newspaper I had better choose death than ask him a question. If a FBO fueler wanted to put balast fuel on a United 727 and needed someone to put power on the a/c, the response might be "It isn't my airplane."

Funny the engineering union people around me frequently work late, fire up their computers on their own time at night and on weekends just in case they need to respond to a few more work e-mails, attend work meetings during their lunch time, and greatly disrupt their personal lives by working hard for massive hours when it's crunch time on a program. I guess I have a different observation of the Boeing union people I see.
 
adh214
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737 Max To Be Built In Renton

Thu Dec 01, 2011 1:51 am

Quoting adh214 (Reply 27):

They agreed to build the 737max in Renton but did they agree to not build it anywhere else? I kind of assumed they were considering two production sites. Does this agreement prevent them from opening a second line in sc or tx?

I answered my own question. The contract states:

"The company will be produce the 737 in Renton to the extent such production can be feasibly completed in the current and existing 737 Renton production facilities."

So my guess is that once this is ratified, they will start looking at other production facilities to boost production to 60 frames per month.


Andrew
 
JoeCanuck
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737 Max To Be Built In Renton

Thu Dec 01, 2011 2:11 am

Quoting adh214 (Reply 29):
"The company will be produce the 737 in Renton to the extent such production can be feasibly completed in the current and existing 737 Renton production facilities."

It's basically like the 787...full production in Washington doesn't mean no production elsewhere. The SC line didn't actually take any work away from Washington.
What the...?
 
cmf
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737 Max To Be Built In Renton

Thu Dec 01, 2011 3:16 am

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 28):
Funny the engineering union people around me frequently work late, fire up their computers on their own time at night and on weekends just in case they need to respond to a few more work e-mails, attend work meetings during their lunch time, and greatly disrupt their personal lives by working hard for massive hours when it's crunch time on a program. I guess I have a different observation of the Boeing union people I see.

I do not know how it is at Boeing but I expect it to be the same as just about all other places where I see it happen; they still only get the same monthly/weekly/whatever salary as if they didn't do it.
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tdscanuck
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737 Max To Be Built In Renton

Thu Dec 01, 2011 3:16 am

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 15):
If I was a Boeing customer for the MAX, I'd want to know that there wouldn't be any labor disruptions that could lead to delays.

If I was a Boeing customer for the last ~5 years, I'd know that labour disruptions are about the least likely and shortest potential delay that might befall me on a new aircraft.

Quoting Trijetsonly (Reply 18):
I don't know anyone who expected the MAX to be built elsewhere than in Renton.

The government of Washington State, SPEEA, IAM, half of South Carolina...

They didn't just spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on studies and incentives and whatnot because they though Renton had it in the bag. The folks in Olympia were paranoid about this.

Tom.
 
JoeCanuck
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737 Max To Be Built In Renton

Thu Dec 01, 2011 3:31 am

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 32):
They didn't just spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on studies and incentives and whatnot because they though Renton had it in the bag. The folks in Olympia were paranoid about this.

This contract still doesn't preclude additional production elsewhere. It's not out of the question that to get production up to the desired 60 per month, that there will be a line built elsewhere.

2016 is still as much as a year before best guess first delivery of the MAX. By that time, Boeing will be well and truly committed and will once again be vulnerable to work stoppages.

This contract essentially keeps current 737 lines open, and gets them switched to MAX production when the time comes.
What the...?
 
canoecarrier
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737 Max To Be Built In Renton

Thu Dec 01, 2011 3:54 am

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 32):
The government of Washington State, SPEEA, IAM, half of South Carolina...

They didn't just spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on studies and incentives and whatnot because they though Renton had it in the bag. The folks in Olympia were paranoid about this.

We both know Gregoire and both our US Senators future political careers hinged on Boeing keeping the MAX in Renton. As much as people in W. Washington complain about the tax concessions given to Boeing, if they hadn't done that there was a very good possibility it would in part have contributed to the plane being built somewhere else.

I'm glad the two groups came to an agreement.
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wn700driver
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RE: 737 Max To Be Built In Renton

Thu Dec 01, 2011 5:01 am

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 11):

Thanks for that, I wasn't aware of that. That's one thing that is really great about this site, there is always someone who is able to shed a new light on almost any subject.

Lol, no kidding. I'm fortunate in that I have A.net & my job for these things. I always thought it was pretty neat how they tend to complement one another, in terms of general knowledge & perspective.

Quoting kanban (Reply 19):

The 737 never shared the 707/720 FAL building, it moved to Renton after the 4-81/-82 build was built.. 727 went in one building and 737 the other...

I was referring to Renton in general, I didn't actually know that. I guess that explains why there aren't photos of the two literally side by side in production. Do you know if they waited until after the 707/720 was wrapped up to move the 737s over there?

I forget how many were built at King County, but I'm pretty sure they were deep into the -200 series when production was relocated. If the wait was long enough, it is conceivable that the 707 was indeed done when the 737 moved over (I think that production finished in 1976 --not including the military 135 top-offs--).
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gunsontheroof
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RE: 737 Max To Be Built In Renton

Thu Dec 01, 2011 5:35 am

Quoting wn700driver (Reply 34):
I forget how many were built at King County, but I'm pretty sure they were deep into the -200 series when production was relocated. If the wait was long enough, it is conceivable that the 707 was indeed done when the 737 moved over (I think that production finished in 1976 --not including the military 135 top-offs--).

I wouldn't really say "deep" into the -200 series, but they were certainly on their way:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 17):
If memory correct, the first 271 737s were built at BFI.

That's roughly what I recall as well. As for the 707 being done when the 737 line moved to RNT, it most certainly wasn't. I think the last civilian copy rolled off the line in the early '80s with KC-135/E-3 production continuing into the very early '90s. Strange to think that at one point (however briefly), the RNT plant was building four different types of Boeing jets as Everett does today.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 32):
This contract still doesn't preclude additional production elsewhere. It's not out of the question that to get production up to the desired 60 per month, that there will be a line built elsewhere.

I'd be surprised if there wasn't some understanding between Boeing and IAM--whether in the contract or simply a "gentleman's agreement" (I know, right?)--that any line outside of RNT will be somewhere in the Puget Sound area. Boeing's internal documents released in this NLRB fiasco pretty much said that the Puget Sound region is their best option and I think their going to the IAM early to try and work this out speaks volumes about how interested they are in keeping their manufacturing base in the area. There's plenty of options if RNT is under strain and I really don't see Boeing as keen on investing in another facility elsewhere when they have ample capacity in Western Washington, particularly now that labor relations are looking up. The costs of getting CHS up and running are going to be absolutely enormous--remember that it's supposed to function completely independently and that's a lot of infrastructure to duplicate. Boeing doesn't want to deal with that and as such, they got together with the union and got something done. Great news for everyone involved--maybe they can go to the other Washington and give congress some pointers.  
 
JoeCanuck
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RE: 737 Max To Be Built In Renton

Thu Dec 01, 2011 6:00 am

Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 35):
I'd be surprised if there wasn't some understanding between Boeing and IAM--whether in the contract or simply a "gentleman's agreement"

I am more inclined to believe that any possible 'gents agreement' would cover existing operations...as in, "play nice and we won't move anything out of Wa"...which is a pretty good deal. Really, it's a win/win for both parties.

That they are dropping objections to SC may tell us that the union has accepted that some out of state production is inevitable...and not just with the 787. What they do keep is the big part of the pie.

I can't see Boeing giving up their program of diversifying their production lines for the sake of one contract...especially one that actually ends before MAX production begins.
What the...?
 
MoltenRock
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RE: 737 Max To Be Built In Renton

Thu Dec 01, 2011 6:12 am

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 32):
This contract still doesn't preclude additional production elsewhere. It's not out of the question that to get production up to the desired 60 per month, that there will be a line built elsewhere.

Nope, you're wrong. Please provide a cite otherwise.

The agreement means that the 737MAX will be built by union employees in the Puget Sound area, period. I've read 4 different in-depth articles now and they all are stating that. Boeing was walking an extremely high tightrope act, trying to deny their wrongdoing regarding the Charleston plant. The IAM used this to their advantage, and secured a very nice contract for all their workers, who currently work in WA state. Boeing got 787 schedule assuredness as well as relative labor peace for paying off the IAM workers $5k each, plus reasonable wage increases.
 
gunsontheroof
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RE: 737 Max To Be Built In Renton

Thu Dec 01, 2011 6:17 am

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 36):
I am more inclined to believe that any possible 'gents agreement' would cover existing operations...as in, "play nice and we won't move anything out of Wa"...which is a pretty good deal. Really, it's a win/win for both parties.

That's pretty much how I read into it as well. Nice to see everyone getting along for once.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 36):

That they are dropping objections to SC may tell us that the union has accepted that some out of state production is inevitable...and not just with the 787. What they do keep is the big part of the pie.

I can't see Boeing giving up their program of diversifying their production lines for the sake of one contract...especially one that actually ends before MAX production begins.

The thing is, I'm not really convinced that a "program of diversifying" their production lines ever existed. The internal documents that have been leaked (and a huge part of why Boeing wanted this NLRB thing settled was that imminent rulings were probably going to require the release of even more) all but said "we're putting a factory in SC to set an example for the unions" and clearly stated that Everett was the best choice for a second line. With the draw down of production at Long Beach and rumors of the military plants in Wichita being closed (and tanker ops moved to Everett), I don't really see how "diversification" is what Boeing is after. They might stick some additional work in Charleston at some point, but I think that'll probably be it...at least in the U.S....

Of course, I've been wrong before. The key thing here is that both sides seem happy with the arrangements of this contract and I don't suspect Boeing is going to be thinking about building a 737 somewhere outside of the Seattle area for quite some time.
 
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kanban
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RE: 737 Max To Be Built In Renton

Thu Dec 01, 2011 6:52 am

Quoting wn700driver (Reply 34):
Do you know if they waited until after the 707/720 was wrapped up to move the 737s over there?



No they didn't (see post 35), the pacing item was the new building... And when the 727 left, in came the Marine Systems Jetfoil and PHM.

Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 35):
I think the last civilian copy rolled off the line in the early '80s with KC-135/E-3 production continuing into the very early '90s.


The KC line ended in the 60's, the E3/E6 were based on the commercial 707 model.

I believe the 737 actually started in Plant II (B-17 through B52 FAL) and moved to the Thompson site down the road before going to Renton.. and now the P-8 outfitting has moved back to the Thompson Site. (small world)
 
Drewski2112
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RE: 737 Max To Be Built In Renton

Thu Dec 01, 2011 7:54 am

Quoting kanban (Reply 39):
I believe the 737 actually started in Plant II

I've heard the first four, but I've also heard the first six. Never been able to pin the exact amount, but definitely in the low single digits. As you can see in the picture below, they put the vertical stabilizer on after they rolled out of Plant II.
 
gunsontheroof
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RE: 737 Max To Be Built In Renton

Thu Dec 01, 2011 8:24 am

Quoting kanban (Reply 39):
The KC line ended in the 60's, the E3/E6 were based on the commercial 707 model.

Yeah, my bad. I was thinking of the E-3 line.
 
BoeingGuy
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RE: 737 Max To Be Built In Renton

Thu Dec 01, 2011 3:46 pm

Quoting cmf (Reply 30):
I do not know how it is at Boeing but I expect it to be the same as just about all other places where I see it happen; they still only get the same monthly/weekly/whatever salary as if they didn't do it.

Boeing engineers get paid overtime, but full time and a half. I think it's time+$6.50. Still not bad, as most professionals don't earn overtime pay as you indicate.
 
JoeCanuck
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RE: 737 Max To Be Built In Renton

Thu Dec 01, 2011 4:34 pm

Quoting MoltenRock (Reply 37):

Nope, you're wrong. Please provide a cite otherwise.

How about the fact that the contract is only good until 2016? There is nothing in the contract that says the MAX will be built in Washington in perpetuity, and the contract doesn't say that the MAX will ONLY be built in Washington.

I don't see anything here;

http://iam751.org/2011proposalsummaryfinal.pdf

...that says Boeing can't build the MAX elsewhere as well as the Puget sound area.

Quoting MoltenRock (Reply 37):
Boeing was walking an extremely high tightrope act, trying to deny their wrongdoing regarding the Charleston plant. The IAM used this to their advantage, and secured a very nice contract for all their workers, who currently work in WA state.

Dropping the NLRB action was a requirement of getting any more work in the Puget sound area and would never have resulted in shutting down the SC plant in any case. At worst, they would have had to pay a fine and that would have shut the door on MAX in Washington...period.

Dropping the action was the minimum required to get the work...or rather, keep the 737.

Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 38):
The thing is, I'm not really convinced that a "program of diversifying" their production lines ever existed. The internal documents that have been leaked (and a huge part of why Boeing wanted this NLRB thing settled was that imminent rulings were probably going to require the release of even more) all but said "we're putting a factory in SC to set an example for the unions"

There is no secret that production continuity protection against union job action was the primary driving force to building a plant in SC...and there's actually not a single thing illegal with that. What is illegal, is moving production to specifically punish a union for conducting a legal strike. Sounds like mere semantics but it's a fine enough line to matter to the law.

Even if you want to stick it to the unions, it's moronic to your game plan to admit it.

What this contract does not do is provide strike protection after 2016...right when Boeing is its most vulnerable to MAX line disruptions...after they've invested in, and committed to MAX production in the Puget sound area.
What the...?
 
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garpd
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RE: 737 Max To Be Built In Renton

Thu Dec 01, 2011 7:31 pm

Quoting wn700driver (Reply 8):
I don't think there's much to worry about this time. The 73MAX is not a brand new AC, does not require brand new assembly methods & practices, and above all, is not even close to as much at the mercy of suppliers & their issues as the 787 was/is.......

I agree, but with all due respect, the same was said for the 747-8. It was still late. The reasons may be different, but late is late.

Quoting steffenbn (Reply 25):
Because Airbus as spot-on every time??

Never suggested anything of the sort. Let's not go A v B on this.
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adh214
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RE: 737 Max To Be Built In Renton

Thu Dec 01, 2011 7:34 pm

Quoting MoltenRock (Reply 37):
Nope, you're wrong. Please provide a cite otherwise.

The agreement means that the 737MAX will be built by union employees in the Puget Sound area, period.

From the contract:

"With approval of the contract exten- sion, the Company will produce the 737NG models and 737MAX models in Renton, to the extent such production can be feasibly completed in the current and existing 737 Renton production facilities."

I think that is pretty clear. If demand is greater than what can be produced in Renton, they can add another factory some place else.

Andrew
 
gunsontheroof
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RE: 737 Max To Be Built In Renton

Thu Dec 01, 2011 7:57 pm

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 43):
How about the fact that the contract is only good until 2016? There is nothing in the contract that says the MAX will be built in Washington in perpetuity, and the contract doesn't say that the MAX will ONLY be built in Washington.

Probably because the contract is only good until 2016. The union isn't going to go overboard on this (wasn't it something like a ten year no-strike guarantee that Boeing wanted last time?), but four years is pretty reasonable for both sides. In any case, MAX development will be well on its way at that point and the union can rest assured that Boeing isn't going to be considering an alternative to Renton when this contract expires.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 43):
There is no secret that production continuity protection against union job action was the primary driving force to building a plant in SC...and there's actually not a single thing illegal with that. What is illegal, is moving production to specifically punish a union for conducting a legal strike. Sounds like mere semantics but it's a fine enough line to matter to the law.

Completely correct. Boeing has already embarrassed themselves enough with this (simply because they were foolish enough to insist their choice of CHS had "nothing to do" with labor actions when documents that emerged later proved that labor actions had EVERYTHING to do with the choice) and the fact that they apparently went to the union and initiated discussions proves three things in my mind:

1) The NLRB case is a distraction that they want swept under the carpet ASAP.

2) They value their manufacturing base in the Puget Sound region and would prefer retaining it to a potentially massive diversification.

3) They're willing to play ball with labor. Boeing has learned on several occasions that their union workforce isn't toothless and as much ballyhoo as their is about the unions from Boeing/the press/a.net forums, they ARE competent, skilled workers with the experience Boeing needs to get this project off the ground. On the other side of the coin, the unions have seen in the last few years that Boeing isn't kidding when they say they'll consider alternatives. The culminating result of the past few years of saber rattling is a labor deal that people on both sides are calling "historic." I don't think that's a stretch.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 43):
Even if you want to stick it to the unions, it's moronic to your game plan to admit it.

There's virtually no information that you can guarantee privacy for these days. I wouldn't be surprised if Boeing spent some serious money on new paper shredders this year.  
Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 43):
What this contract does not do is provide strike protection after 2016...right when Boeing is its most vulnerable to MAX line disruptions...after they've invested in, and committed to MAX production in the Puget sound area.

True enough, but given the tone of both sides amidst this announcement, I think we may be seeing the beginning of a new era for Boeing/IAM relations. The MAX line will certainly be most vulnerable to disruption after the deal expires in 2016, but so too will be the livelihoods of all those workers. I'd be surprised to see much in the way of posturing from the union in 2016...we have to remember that a lot of the labor strife we've seen in the last few years at Boeing has been a result of controversy over potential site relocations and massive outsourcing of work for the 787 (and we saw how that worked out...) Boeing seems to have learned from this and I don't think the stuff that I've read here about their commitment to "bring more work back in house" is at all unrelated.

It's just too bad that there's nothing in the contract about finding a better name for the MAX (*shudder*). Did someone forget that they build airplanes, not light rail?

*Edit because I typed "a.net unions" instead of "a.net forums"...a.net unions...imagine that!

[Edited 2011-12-01 11:59:32]
 
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kanban
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RE: 737 Max To Be Built In Renton

Thu Dec 01, 2011 8:20 pm

Quoting Drewski2112 (Reply 40):
picture below, they put the vertical stabilizer on after they rolled out of Plant II



thanks for the picture... nice to have a visual record



RE: MAX... I know some hate it, others just tolerate it, however I think it means the the airframe and wing are MAXed out as far as future dynamic revisions are concerned and the next will be the all new a/p ..... with the same cramped cockpit for continuity   
 
redflyer
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RE: 737 Max To Be Built In Renton

Thu Dec 01, 2011 8:22 pm

Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 46):
2) They value their manufacturing base in the Puget Sound region and would prefer retaining it to a potentially massive diversification.

Inasmuch as they may value their manufacturing base in Puget, why would they not want to diversify? Most manufacturers do over time, either organically or through acquisitions. It doesn't make sense from a business standpoint to have your core business capabilities concentrated in one geographical location.

Boeing settled - quickly - on Washington because with the timelines for the MAX this was a major issue that doesn't have to be addressed in the short term and it also eliminates any further haggling over S.C. It would be naive to think S.C. was an anomaly and no further diversification will occur. S.C. is the start of a major shift for Boeing. And I would venture to guess if their hand wasn't forced by Airbus into going with the MAX, and they had time to develop an all-new 737 replacement, they would eventually be scrutinizing a new site to locate construction of the bird.
My other home is in the sky inside my Piper Cherokee 180.
 
gunsontheroof
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RE: 737 Max To Be Built In Renton

Thu Dec 01, 2011 8:40 pm

Quoting redflyer (Reply 48):
Inasmuch as they may value their manufacturing base in Puget, why would they not want to diversify? Most manufacturers do over time, either organically or through acquisitions. It doesn't make sense from a business standpoint to have your core business capabilities concentrated in one geographical location.

Very true, but aside from Airbus (a multi-national consortium) building planes at TLS and HAM, where's the precedent for this in commercial aviation? We're not talking about Honda Civics here...airplanes have a unique attribute compared to other export products in that they can ship themselves to their customers. Not saying that Boeing isn't at all interested in diversification, but given the massive amount of manufacturing and support infrastructure required to build airplanes en masse, having your production capacity centered in one place can make a lot of sense--especially when you consider the expense required to have a second site that you'd like to remain independent of the first. Boeing's facilities in the Puget Sound region are massive, but what's often overlooked is the size of all their support/manufacturing facilities, to say nothing of the independent aviation companies that have opened shop around the area BECAUSE of Boeing's huge footprint. This has all developed over the course of sixty years...not exactly an overnight job. Given the boom-bust nature of airplane manufacturing, I have a hard time seeing the case for trying to put this kind of manufacturing base/support network in multiple geographic locations just for the sake of "diversification." It makes a lot of sense in many industries, I'm just not sure it makes much sense (if any) if you're one of the world's leading aircraft manufacturers, especially when you've got the longest-standing manufacturing base in the world at your disposal.

Quoting redflyer (Reply 48):
And I would venture to guess if their hand wasn't forced by Airbus into going with the MAX, and they had time to develop an all-new 737 replacement, they would eventually be scrutinizing a new site to locate construction of the bird.

I'm sure that will probably still be the case. Could be the one thing that kept this down to a four-year deal...Boeing is likely to be thinking about this around that time and the union is making sure they can make work on the 797 part of their 2016 contract negotiations....we'll see.

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