LOWS
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OS In Financial Trouble Again

Thu Dec 01, 2011 10:01 pm

From today's Presse:

AUA-braucht-Sparpaket_Jobabbau-und-Gehaltsverzicht?_vl_backlink=%2Fhome%2Findex.do" target="_blank">http://diepresse.com/home/wirtschaft...ht?_vl_backlink=%2Fhome%2Findex.do

Basically, they are looking for another 100m€ in cuts, and the airline is going to end the year, again, with a loss. The Euro crisis has severely hurt the airline this year along with the other crises in Japan, and the high price of oil.

They are looking for an end to the air passenger tax and further concessions from VIE and Austrocontrol. In addition, further concessions in pay will be sought from the employees.

The comments are a good laugh, I will leave them to our German readers...

What's next for AUA with it's ageing fleet and mother Lufthansa breathing down it's neck to stop losing money?
 
leftyboarder
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RE: OS In Financial Trouble Again

Thu Dec 01, 2011 10:13 pm

How long can national pride go on? We've seen MA, OK, RO, OA all pull down long haul flying. That leaves LO and OS as the only legacies in this region with small bases trying to make long haul work. Let them feed LH, I bet LH management would love that.
 
irshava
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RE: OS In Financial Trouble Again

Thu Dec 01, 2011 11:45 pm

Quoting leftyboarder (Reply 1):

No - you forgot VV which has a bigger network than LO.
“If you were born without wings, do nothing to prevent them from growing.”
 
KFlyer
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RE: OS In Financial Trouble Again

Fri Dec 02, 2011 8:00 am

Why doesn't LH offload OS instead of BD? BD is at least based in a lucrative market whose airport slots at least will be very valuable in the future. It might be hard to make it profitable, that's true, but neither is OS. Or does it have to do with the closer proximity to Germany which effectively 'adds' Austria to LH's home market ?
The opinions above are solely my own and do not express those of my employers or clients.
 
JU068
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RE: OS In Financial Trouble Again

Fri Dec 02, 2011 10:41 am

Quoting KFlyer (Reply 3):
Why doesn't LH offload OS instead of BD? BD is at least based in a lucrative market whose airport slots at least will be very valuable in the future. It might be hard to make it profitable, that's true, but neither is OS. Or does it have to do with the closer proximity to Germany which effectively 'adds' Austria to LH's home market ?

I think that Vienna is a very lucrative and wealthy market, not to mention that Vienna is home to the IAEA and that its proximity to Bratislava helps a lot.


I love the Fokkers but I think that OS should make their retirement a priority. Niki has just received some Dash-8 aircrafts from Air Berlin and with more economical aircraft and lower cost structure it could really hurt Austrian.

Does anyone know if Austrian's B777s are making any money? Maybe it would be better to stick to the smaller B767s?

Austrian Airlines is a great, classy airline, it would be a shame to see it transform into just another crappy hybrid airline.
 
LHRFlyer
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RE: OS In Financial Trouble Again

Fri Dec 02, 2011 12:13 pm

Quoting KFlyer (Reply 3):
Why doesn't LH offload OS instead of BD?

Because BD is a very distant 2nd in its home market and there is no prospect of a turnaround.

There is a big difference between the clear market leader in your home hub and being No 2.
 
Lufthansa
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RE: OS In Financial Trouble Again

Fri Dec 02, 2011 12:23 pm

let's see where the losses are coming in from. My guess is it's long haul.
As for the fokkers... well, that probably is what is keeping AUA's frequent flyer base happy.
The refurbished F100s look really nice inside, much nicer then getting stuck on some crap CRJ,
and AUA has a reputation for service.

I'm just not sure Vienna can support much of a long haul hub. It might be a better idea to strip it down
to flights that are profitable, plus maybe one STAR hub in Asia and one STAR hub in the US (Probably EWR).
But without figures we can't be sure of the problem. The fact that Emirates and friends are stealing pax both directly from
vienna, but also from other places like secondary cities, even now as far away as stockholm, that may have previously connected in VIE is a problem.
 
AustrianZRH
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RE: OS In Financial Trouble Again

Fri Dec 02, 2011 12:28 pm

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 6):
But without figures we can't be sure of the problem.

What I've read the problems were created by insufficient profit on the flights to NRT and the Middle East. I also wonder what the OS salary level is now compared to other EU airlines. They have already agreed on a 5% drop in pay after the takeover, but considering how strong the unions are in Austria - especially within federally owned companies as OS was until the LH takeover - I could imagine that level being more than 5% over what is usually paid in the rest of Europe.
WARNING! The post above should be taken with a grain of salt! Furthermore, it may be slightly biased towards A.
 
Burkhard
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RE: OS In Financial Trouble Again

Fri Dec 02, 2011 12:36 pm

Quoting leftyboarder (Reply 1):
Let them feed LH, I bet LH management would love that.

I always thought the best solution would be the long range ( out of Europe ) traffic out of VIE, which has enough load and yield, to be flown by LX, the rest axed.
 
Lufthansa
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RE: OS In Financial Trouble Again

Fri Dec 02, 2011 12:45 pm

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 8):
I always thought the best solution would be the long range ( out of Europe ) traffic out of VIE, which has enough load and yield, to be flown by LX, the rest axed.

Interesting idea because no doubt Swiss already flies to those cities anyway. So you could simply do a turn around at the outstation, head back to VIE. But those 777s are capable. seems a shame to waste them. I guess the question comes down to what would VIE make the best hub for. The way LHR works well for the USA,, and HEL works well for heading to Asia. Africa perhaps? South and East seem like the only options... fed maybe by going deeper into the former Yugoslavia greece and Italy as well as the germanic world? Or is Vienna more like a Denver... works well in the centre for short haul but not much else?
 
leftyboarder
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RE: OS In Financial Trouble Again

Fri Dec 02, 2011 1:10 pm

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 9):
Or is Vienna more like a Denver... works well in the centre for short haul but not much else?

I'd say that's pretty much it. When you're in the middle like that, surrounded by many other stronger hubs, a pan-European hub on a smaller scale makes more sense than a long haul hub. After all, LHR / CDG / FRA / AMS own the North America - Europe connections, and EK / QR / EY / TK rule the Europe - Asia connections. Without a significant home base they will have to make do with a short haul operation.
 
GCT64
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RE: OS In Financial Trouble Again

Fri Dec 02, 2011 1:30 pm

Quoting leftyboarder (Reply 10):
When you're in the middle like that, surrounded by many other stronger hubs, a pan-European hub on a smaller scale makes more sense than a long haul hub.

I'm not sure, given the proximity to MUC and ZRH whether a hub of any nature (A to B via VIE) makes any sense at all. I see OS and VIE in the future being predominantly O&D in the same way that, say, MAN or EDI are.
Flown in: A30B,A306,A310,A319,A320,A321,A332,A333,A343,A346,A388,BA11,BU31,B190, B461,(..53 more types..),VC10,WESX
 
leftyboarder
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RE: OS In Financial Trouble Again

Fri Dec 02, 2011 1:43 pm

Quoting GCT64 (Reply 11):

I'm not sure, given the proximity to MUC and ZRH whether a hub of any nature (A to B via VIE) makes any sense at all. I see OS and VIE in the future being predominantly O&D in the same way that, say, MAN or EDI are.

If they could've continued on their dominance in the Balkans and Central Asia, they could've become the carrier of choice for West Europe - Balkans / C. Asia.
 
staralliance85
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RE: OS In Financial Trouble Again

Fri Dec 02, 2011 1:44 pm

With the exception of Swiss, LH does a terrible job in managing airlines. BMI and now OS. LH just has a problem of updating itself. For example, they absolutely refuse to install flat bed Business Class seating on their aircrafts. Swiss installed them but LH and OS didn't. If they were comitted to having them they would of put them on the A380. They are a complete failure by letting BMI slip through the cracks and by selling it to OW's IAG who will dominate LHR. They should sell it to VS because there is a very strong possibility that they will join *A. Having a support base at LHR is an asset. Plus, they campaigned to have AI join the *A over 9W, which is just stupid.

As for OS, they probably have to scale it back to an O/D base like BRU and EDI. They will rely on major hubs such as FRA,MUC and ZRH. What is going to be next for LH, the collapse of SN?
brad Fitzpatrick
 
PDPsol
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RE: OS In Financial Trouble Again

Fri Dec 02, 2011 1:54 pm

VIE is an excellent hub for operations throughout central Europe, the Balkans, Russia, Turkey, N. Africa, the Levant, and into the Arab world, Iraq, and even Iran. OS should focus its efforts on connecting these markets with western Europe, without the need for operating wide body aircraft.

The only TATL routes which I can imagine must be viable for OS are New York, JFK or EWR, and, perhaps, IAD. Both IAD and EWR are, of course, very important Star Alliance UA hubs, and I imagine OS works very closely with UA and its owner, LH, to coordinate TATL operations. Of course, UA does service several important markets in the Middle East directly from IAD and EWR, without the need for a VIE connection.

I believe LH will, rationalize, OS operations and focus its efforts on servicing key eastern markets.
 
AustrianZRH
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RE: OS In Financial Trouble Again

Fri Dec 02, 2011 2:12 pm

Quoting staralliance85 (Reply 13):
For example, they absolutely refuse to install flat bed Business Class seating on their aircrafts. Swiss installed them but LH and OS didn't.

Next winter, all OS long haul planes will get a cabin refurbishment, including flat bed C class and AVoD in all classes. Pic of the new C seat can be found here.
WARNING! The post above should be taken with a grain of salt! Furthermore, it may be slightly biased towards A.
 
TomFoolery
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RE: OS In Financial Trouble Again

Fri Dec 02, 2011 3:19 pm

So how many *A hubs can be sustained in central Europe? VIE, MUC, FRA, ZRH, BRU, WAW... this does not include the additional hubs of BCN, LIS, MAN, LHR, CPH within Europe, who's *A residents also conduct short/medium/long haul operations.

It seems that they are stepping on each other's feet. There are cities which seem to be pretty standard on the long haul range, and some that are standard on the medium range. New York, London, Frankfurt, Paris, and the like. In cases where a connection is made, the options are nearly unlimited. Take your pick. What are the factors? Schedule, Price, Service/Reputation (ok, for A-netters: Aircraft make, series, engine manufacturer, former owner(s) ... .

I have to wonder if there IS an issue with the close proximity of VIE to *A hubs for AUA to otherwise prosper. Would membership on another aliance have resulted in better/different outcome (never mind the position with LH group)?

AUA has very fine product, but outside of that, what makes them stand out from the rest of their *A members, or competition, for that matter?
Paper makes an airplane fly
 
ManekS
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RE: OS In Financial Trouble Again

Fri Dec 02, 2011 3:19 pm

OS have probably been badly effected because of their limited long haul network.

BKK has suffered from floods, affecting the tourist market on which OS relies. NRT is still recovering from the earthquake. The YYZ, BOM and IAD markets are likely going through a phase of uncertainty because of the current, fragile nature of the economy, and the fact that these destinations are only served a few times a week doesn't help their cause. Finally, JFK, PEK and DEL are very competitive markets with a lot of alternate carriers for pax to choose when traveling to Europe.

Given the limited number of long range planes they have, perhaps it would be best to reevaluate their routes and focus on using their resources on high yielding destinations with strong connections to Austria and surrounding Eastern European countries. LH and LX are much better positioned to work as transit hubs to places around the world.
 
luckyone
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RE: OS In Financial Trouble Again

Fri Dec 02, 2011 3:29 pm

Quoting TomFoolery (Reply 16):
Quoting ManekS (Reply 17):

Would it not be easier to simply standardize on a single long haul carrier? It's not a secret Lufthansa owns these airlines, so if limited long haul networks were needed how far fetched is it to see Lufthansa operating those flights on behalf of Austrian, Brussels, etc and connect to the regional network? It would certainly be cheaper for the smaller carriers as they wouldn't be subjected to the expense of maintaining a long haul fleet.
 
GCT64
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RE: OS In Financial Trouble Again

Fri Dec 02, 2011 3:48 pm

Quoting luckyone (Reply 18):
Would it not be easier to simply standardize on a single long haul carrier? It's not a secret Lufthansa owns these airlines, so if limited long haul networks were needed how far fetched is it to see Lufthansa operating those flights on behalf of Austrian, Brussels, etc and connect to the regional network?

That's a very rational and sensible argument (and Open Skies would, in most cases, enable it) - but, sadly, national politics and the like will fight against it in much the same way as, for example, IAG won't be able to acquire AA even if a takeover bid from (say) US appears.

I thought, from day 1 of the takeover, that BMI's chances of survival would have been enhanced if they have been absorbed into Lufthansa and made an integral part of the parent.
Flown in: A30B,A306,A310,A319,A320,A321,A332,A333,A343,A346,A388,BA11,BU31,B190, B461,(..53 more types..),VC10,WESX
 
laca773
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RE: OS In Financial Trouble Again

Fri Dec 02, 2011 4:41 pm

Quoting ManekS (Reply 17):

BKK has suffered from floods, affecting the tourist market on which OS relies. NRT is still recovering from the earthquake. The YYZ, BOM and IAD markets are likely going through a phase of uncertainty because of the current, fragile nature of the economy, and the fact that these destinations are only served a few times a week doesn't help their cause. Finally, JFK, PEK and DEL are very competitive markets with a lot of alternate carriers for pax to choose when traveling to Europe.


I, for one, don't know what the chances are of this happening, but I'm going to bring up the thought of OS taking over SA)">UA's EWR-VIE service, which, if they can operate as a JV. I feel SA elite flyers would appreciate the nicer inflight service over SA)">UA. The same goes for IAD-VIE.

In regards to OS service to NRT & BKK, these natural disasters are obviously out of the control of OS. Things will improve.

Quoting ManekS (Reply 17):
Given the limited number of long range planes they have, perhaps it would be best to reevaluate their routes and focus on using their resources on high yielding destinations with strong connections to Austria and surrounding Eastern European countries. LH and LX are much better positioned to work as transit hubs to places around the world.

This is a good idea. They could focus on the Eastern European Region. LH could also have them do some of their flying from VIE-FRA/MUC/HAM/CGN/BER and etc., and in turn, they can put their a/c in other markets, similar to what they did with BD.

Another thing that would probably help trim costs is their fleet. The OS fleet is not that old considering other carriers, but does OS need to fly both Boeing & Airbus narrowbodies? Which are they happier with? They fly both 73G/A319 in the 120 seat range; the 73H/A320 in the 150 seat range. Then instead of the A318, they fly the 736 which has the same issues the of the latter. They also fly the A321 instead of the 739. I know the Boeing fleet came from Lauda, but if OS is happy with them, over the Airbus fleet, it's time to retire one or the other.

Does OS need A321s for the markets they serve? Wouldn't the 73H or A320s cover their routes adequately for the demand?

I also feel the 736s should probably be retired as well as the Fokkers. The E75/E90s can easily replace these birds and do so much more efficiently and economically. When I think of the 736/F70/F100s, I think of LX and their AR1s. I'm surprised LH/LX has decided to wait to replace them with the C-Series which won't be out for a few more years when they could have gone with the E90s.
 
luckyone
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RE: OS In Financial Trouble Again

Fri Dec 02, 2011 5:06 pm

Quoting laca773 (Reply 20):

There is currently no service between EWR and Vienna.
The mixed fleet is a byproduct of the Lauda Air. I believe they operate to different markets.
 
leftyboarder
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RE: OS In Financial Trouble Again

Fri Dec 02, 2011 5:10 pm

For one thing, LH or LX can't operate OS routes from VIE unless open skies exists; bilaterals would mostly not allow a 3rd country's carrier to operate between VIE and the destination in a 2nd country. Heck, even LH ownership of OS probably causes issues (like Russia objecting to LX operating to Moscow from Switzerland as a wholly owned subsidiary of a German airline). So it's either OS suffering losses in long-haul or giving them up until a global open skies (impossible I guess) is in effect.
 
luckyone
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RE: OS In Financial Trouble Again

Fri Dec 02, 2011 5:18 pm

Can they contract On a flight per flight basis? Or come up with a lease or time share-type deal on the aircraft, operated by OS/SN pilots? They already have Airbus type rated pilots on staff. More complicated arrangements exist already between Lufty and BD. Or conversely, have the aircraft under The necessary registry and livery, but in a single Lufthansa configuration and operate where possible throughout the Lufthansa network? But when its needed where bilaterals dictate, it can be scheduled accordingly. Such as having a long hauler do VIE-City-FRA-city-Vienna, thereby spreading the costs around, and rationalizing the network.

[Edited 2011-12-02 09:25:42]
 
CPHFF
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RE: OS In Financial Trouble Again

Fri Dec 02, 2011 7:15 pm

Quoting ju068 (Reply 4):

Does anyone know if Austrian's B777s are making any money? Maybe it would be better to stick to the smaller B767s?

I have flown VIE-DXB 7 times in the past 18 Months. 6 times on 777 and 1 time on 763. Every single flight has been full in Y and Business. I have no clue how profitable this leg is.

Quoting staralliance85 (Reply 13):
For example, they absolutely refuse to install flat bed Business Class seating on their aircrafts

Well, the Business Class seats in the 767 is really outdated, the 777's aren't that bad, even though they are not truly lie-flat. With a Business Class price of 20 - 25% below competitors, I feel that it's quite OK on trips shorter than 9hs.
Detroit is bankrupt. Don't forget to thank UAW folks!
 
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eurowings
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RE: OS In Financial Trouble Again

Fri Dec 02, 2011 8:52 pm

Quoting staralliance85 (Reply 13):
With the exception of Swiss, LH does a terrible job in managing airlines. BMI and now OS. LH just has a problem of updating itself.

They are a complete failure by letting BMI slip through the cracks and by selling it to OW's IAG who will dominate LHR. They should sell it to VS because there is a very strong possibility that they will join *A.
LH didn't want to 'manage' BD - the takeover was forced upon them as a business decision taken 10 or so years ago when BD was a very different airline. BD has tried every strategy possible, but it's not like OS or LX, it's home market is dominated by other airlines.

VS can't really afford to buy it (at least without substantial financing from Etihad) and quite frankly they have enough problems of their own.

[Edited 2011-12-02 12:53:27]
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SR4ever
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RE: OS In Financial Trouble Again

Sat Dec 03, 2011 12:24 am

Sad to read these latest news about OS, especially as it was seemingly under recovery.

In terms of route map, some additions, focused on Germany, Italy, France and CEE/CIS would make sense, as these countries are the main trading partners of Austria. HAJ, NUE, TRN, LIN, TLS, KLV, OSR, NIN are among the most obvious ones.

Longhaul is more complex, but with smaller frames than the 772, i.e 332 / 788, it should be possible to increase most lines to daily service, and offer a bit more destinations: ORD, LAX or SFO, SIN, HKG, PVG.
 
wdleiser
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RE: OS In Financial Trouble Again

Sat Dec 03, 2011 5:38 am

Quoting staralliance85 (Reply 13):

Lufthansa is a failure?
...........The Lufthansa Group reports operating profit of EUR 578m after nine months
http://presse.lufthansa.com/en/news-.../2011/october/27/article/2022.html
 
LOWS
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RE: OS In Financial Trouble Again

Sat Dec 03, 2011 8:31 am

Quoting CPHFF (Reply 24):
Well, the Business Class seats in the 767 is really outdated, the 777's aren't that bad, even though they are not truly lie-flat. With a Business Class price of 20 - 25% below competitors, I feel that it's quite OK on trips shorter than 9hs.

They are getting a cabin renewal in 2012 including new seats.
 
JU068
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RE: OS In Financial Trouble Again

Sat Dec 03, 2011 8:47 am

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 6):
The refurbished F100s look really nice inside, much nicer then getting stuck on some crap CRJ,
and AUA has a reputation for service.

Austrian Airlines has withdrawn their CRJs, in my opinion it was the best decision they have taken until now. That aircraft was beyond nasty, I remember flying on it from Belgrade to Vienna (55 minutes) and I couldn't wait to land.

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 6):
I'm just not sure Vienna can support much of a long haul hub. It might be a better idea to strip it down
to flights that are profitable, plus maybe one STAR hub in Asia and one STAR hub in the US (Probably EWR).
But without figures we can't be sure of the problem. The fact that Emirates and friends are stealing pax both directly from

Austrian aims at attracting a lot of transit passengers from the Balkans. However what i can't understand is that they are aiming at the Balkans without serving Chicago. They could make Chicago work just by attracting Serbian passengers.
In March I was flying on Lufthansa from Belgrade to Frankfurt and we were a total of 110 passengers out of which 75 were continuing to North America (mostly Toronto and Chicago).

Quoting CPHFF (Reply 24):
I have flown VIE-DXB 7 times in the past 18 Months. 6 times on 777 and 1 time on 763. Every single flight has been full in Y and Business. I have no clue how profitable this leg

Maybe they need the B777 for cargo?

Quoting leftyboarder (Reply 22):
For one thing, LH or LX can't operate OS routes from VIE unless open skies exists;

Well Lufthansa can since both Germany and Austria are members of the European Union. On the other hand I think that Swiss should not have any problems since Switzerland is pretty much enjoying all the rights and privileges of an EU country.

Quoting luckyone (Reply 21):
The mixed fleet is a byproduct of the Lauda Air. I believe they operate to different markets.

Yes but let's not forget that Austrian operated A330s and A340s until recently. It was only later that it opted for Boeings for longhaul and Airbus for shorthaul.
The only strange thing in their fleet are the few Boeings left from the time of Niki. The strangest thing in their fleet is the B737-600.

Quoting luckyone (Reply 21):
I believe they operate to different markets.

Not really, Austrian sends their B737-800 to places like London Heathrow or Belgrade, both destinations see Airbuses as well.

Quoting laca773 (Reply 20):
Does OS need A321s for the markets they serve? Wouldn't the 73H or A320s cover their routes adequately for the demand?

Austrian sends their A321s to Larnaca (daily) and the flights always depart packed. My guess that they have only a few destinations where they can use them.

Quoting laca773 (Reply 20):
I also feel the 736s should probably be retired as well as the Fokkers. The E75/E90s can easily replace these birds and do so much more efficiently and economically

Yes, it should be retired with the rest. However, I am sure that Lufthansa is not that willing to give Austrian some of its own E-jets, since they need them as well.
Embraer jets are not that easy to find on the market and placing an order now would make them wait for a long time. Maybe the best decision would be to replace the Fokkers and the odd Boeing 737-600 with Dash-8s.
Anyway, the Fokkers are used for the vast majority of regional routes (like those in ex-Yugoslavia or eastern Balkans) where they could easily send the Dashes.

As for the B737-600 I am sure that if they really need the extra capacity it could easily be replaced with an A319.
 
SR4ever
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RE: OS In Financial Trouble Again

Sat Dec 03, 2011 8:48 am

Quoting leftyboarder (Reply 10):
I'd say that's pretty much it. When you're in the middle like that, surrounded by many other stronger hubs, a pan-European hub on a smaller scale makes more sense than a long haul hub.
Quoting leftyboarder (Reply 12):
If they could've continued on their dominance in the Balkans and Central Asia, they could've become the carrier of choice for West Europe - Balkans / C. Asia.

This makes some sense, but in terms of service, destinations in Near East and Central Asia deserve better than the current product, in terms of IFE and seating, which is now the same as on their European flights.

If I want to travel from Western Europe to AMM in J class, MS and TK offer far lower price and often better seating than OS. If I want european business class, airlines RO or MA offer the same product as OS, for almost half its fare off.

Pity Mother LH had OS scrap its Premium service on those destinations.

Quoting staralliance85 (Reply 13):
What is going to be next for LH, the collapse of SN?

No, it won't happen. SN will terminate lower-yielding estinations (mostlw inherited from Virgin Express), cut down some overheads, and enhance its product. It will work, no worries.

Quoting laca773 (Reply 20):
Does OS need A321s for the markets they serve?

It might need it on bigger routes such as LHR, FRA, MUC, ZRH. Possibly on Middle East/Central Asia/Caucasus.

Quoting CPHFF (Reply 24):
With a Business Class price of 20 - 25% below competitors, I feel that it's quite OK on trips shorter than 9hs.

Whenever I inquire as to fares from Western Europe to DXB, BOM, DEL, LX is often cheaper than OS, yet with a better hard product.
 
SR4ever
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RE: OS In Financial Trouble Again

Sat Dec 03, 2011 8:59 am

Quoting ju068 (Reply 29):
However what i can't understand is that they are aiming at the Balkans without serving Chicago. They could make Chicago work just by attracting Serbian passengers.

As a UA hub, ORD would indeed make sense on OS route map. Not with a 772, but rather a 763, or a 332 or 788.

Quoting ju068 (Reply 29):
Embraer jets are not that easy to find on the market and placing an order now would make them wait for a long time.

Well, the remaining 3 ER3 from LG are for sale now  
Quoting ju068 (Reply 29):
Maybe the best decision would be to replace the Fokkers and the odd Boeing 737-600 with Dash-8s.
Anyway, the Fokkers are used for the vast majority of regional routes (like those in ex-Yugoslavia or eastern Balkans) where they could easily send the Dashes.

C10 would make sense as 100 and 736 replacement.

F70 replacement won't always be that easy, as I can't imagine a DH8 on a route such as VIE-AER.
 
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airbuseric
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RE: OS In Financial Trouble Again

Sat Dec 03, 2011 9:16 am

I hope VIE airport can close the old B-gates (at groundlevel) really quick, since that's a FR-style terminal and does not suit to OS flights. Every time I flew OS, I had to use these busgates. Terrible!

Also, a bad experience on them in C, European flight, a pre-ordered (vegetarian) special meal was not loaded, which is a real bad issue, after complaining twice they only were able to offer a real small amount of M&M miles.

These are quite recent experiences, therefore I am not fully satisfied to use OS again in the near future. VIE can be a great hub, but e.g. it's old-fashioned, lavatories are usually dirty and smelly, waiting lounges are too small (after security at the gate), and as mentioned the bus-gates at B-gates better close today immediately.

It's just what I noticed... a personal opinion. Therefore I think that my money better goes to other airlines in Europe  
"The whole world steps aside for the man who knows where he is going"
 
JU068
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RE: OS In Financial Trouble Again

Sat Dec 03, 2011 9:25 am

Quoting SR4ever (Reply 31):
As a UA hub, ORD would indeed make sense on OS route map. Not with a 772, but rather a 763, or a 332 or 788.

I actually believe that the B767-300 is the most ideal aircraft for Austrian. It's relatiely efficient, not that expensive to operate, comoftable and has decent cargo space.
With an extensive route network over the Balkans Austrian Airlines would make Chicago an instant success.
For example, they have 4 daily flights to Belgrade, with their North American routes departing early in the morning passengers from Belgrade will be offered greater flexibility when booking their tickets between a 05:15 and 08:30 departure out of Belgrade. Very few airlines in Europe can do that, so it's a shame they are not using it to the full extent.

Quoting SR4ever (Reply 31):
C10 would make sense as 100 and 736 replacement.

F70 replacement won't always be that easy, as I can't imagine a DH8 on a route such as VIE-AER.

Yes, for the longer thiner routes the C10 would be perfect. However most of the European flights operated by the Fokkers are ideal for Dash-8s.

Quoting SR4ever (Reply 31):
Well, the remaining 3 ER3 from LG are for sale now

LOL then I suppose they are better off with their Fokkers :P

Quoting airbuseric (Reply 32):
lavatories are usually dirty and smelly

Actually I found the airport quite dirty and the staff rude.
 
LOWS
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RE: OS In Financial Trouble Again

Sat Dec 03, 2011 10:27 am

Quoting airbuseric (Reply 32):
These are quite recent experiences, therefore I am not fully satisfied to use OS again in the near future. VIE can be a great hub, but e.g. it's old-fashioned, lavatories are usually dirty and smelly, waiting lounges are too small (after security at the gate), and as mentioned the bus-gates at B-gates better close today immediately.

The new SkyLink terminal will solve those complaints. Anyone who uses VIE cannot deny that it is a mess and is massively inefficient. I think it is supposed to open in the next 8months. Combine that with the new terminus for Wien Mitte (Landstraße) where the City-Airport Train ends and finally, Wien will have a world class airport and airline for a world class city.

http://www.viennaairport.com/jart/pr...=1263859256329&reserve-mode=active
 
Semaex
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RE: OS In Financial Trouble Again

Sat Dec 03, 2011 3:50 pm

Quoting LOWS (Reply 34):
The new SkyLink terminal will solve those complaints. Anyone who uses VIE cannot deny that it is a mess and is massively inefficient. I think it is supposed to open in the next 8months. Combine that with the new terminus for Wien Mitte (Landstraße) where the City-Airport Train ends and finally, Wien will have a world class airport and airline for a world class city.

Practically having had my second home in and around Vienna for years, I've been hearing those exact same words for quite a long time now.
The SkyLink is a shameful sight, standing along the tarmac half empty since years. Politicians are unable to finance the building, let alone know where all the money which has been invested drained to...
I truely believe there is a lot of potential in VIE as a hub for Eastern-European markets, and that's also what LH has repeatedly stated what they intend for OS to work at in the future. But unless the airport owners (VIA) manage to make VIE an attractive site, there is no way OS can achieve any of those goals.
The SkyLink, looking at it with a hint of foresight and imagination, can be a GREAT terminal. Huge space, open windows, very organized structure - everything the other terminals at VIE can only dream of.
So one of two things has to happen at VIE before OS can expand and righteously call Vienna a "Gateway to Eastern Europe" - (1) Restructue the existing terminals and make them much more pax-friendly. The deficits have already been pointed out (and for the sake of my eyes, please get rid of those neon-yellow signs everywhere!!). (2) Complete the SkyLink and let the masses witness it and come again.
// You know you're an aviation enthusiast when you look at your neighbour's cars and think about fleet commonality.
 
LOWS
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RE: OS In Financial Trouble Again

Sat Dec 03, 2011 4:44 pm

Quoting Semaex (Reply 35):
So one of two things has to happen at VIE before OS can expand and righteously call Vienna a "Gateway to Eastern Europe" - (1) Restructue the existing terminals and make them much more pax-friendly. The deficits have already been pointed out (and for the sake of my eyes, please get rid of those neon-yellow signs everywhere!!). (2) Complete the SkyLink and let the masses witness it and come again.

I understand SkyLink will be finished next year, at which point OS operations are scheduled to move exclusively to it. HG/AB/AZ can enjoy the old stuff. It is a true shame how poorly the project has been managed.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: OS In Financial Trouble Again

Sat Dec 03, 2011 5:27 pm

Quoting leftyboarder (Reply 12):
If they could've continued on their dominance in the Balkans and Central Asia, they could've become the carrier of choice for West Europe - Balkans / C. Asia.

I think TK is sprinting ahead as the airline of choice to those regions

Quoting leftyboarder (Reply 22):
LH or LX can't operate OS routes from VIE unless open skies exists

LH/LX can't do that??
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
JU068
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RE: OS In Financial Trouble Again

Sat Dec 03, 2011 5:36 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 37):
I think TK is sprinting ahead as the airline of choice to those regions

Yes but Austrian Airlines has a major advantage in comparison with Turkish Airlines and that is that it can rely on a large O&D market between Vienna and the Balkans/Eastern Europe. This enables them to have multiple daily flights to these cities. Not to mention that Austrian's smallest plane is the Fokker 70 whereas Turkish's is B737-700/A319.

When talking about the Middle East and Central Asia then it's a completely different story.


By the way, when was the new terminal originally schedlued to be opened?

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 37):
LH/LX can't do that??

They can, like I told him in an earlier post, this is possible thanks to both countries being in the European Union.
 
PDPsol
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RE: OS In Financial Trouble Again

Sat Dec 03, 2011 6:13 pm

As mentioned in my prior posting and as several members have reiterated here, OS must focus on its strengths. Its owner, LH, knows this and must manage OS in the context of its large portfolio of carriers in the region, including LX and SN. LH must also manage OS in the context of its membership with Star Alliance.

Once VIE completes its "metamorphosis" into a world-class facility next year, in 2012, OS should rationalize its operations, focusing on its network to the east, the Balkans, Turkey, Russia, the Caucus states, Azerbaijan, the Arab world, Iraq, Persia, Iran, the Gulf states, and Central Asia. These markets are incredibly valuable and will continue to grow strongly over future years. OS can operate these markets with the A32X, connecting them with key Star Alliance hubs in western Europe, including BRU, FRA, MUC, BCN, ZRH, etc., etc.

The only long-haul, wide body markets OS would need to operate would be select Star Alliance hubs in North America, two, perhaps three destinations. EWR would be an obvious choice, although abandoning JFK would be a major decision and OS would need to weigh the benefits of traffic at EWR from UA, with the attraction of JFK as a better O&D facility.

The second TATL market could be IAD, which OS is already currently serving, or perhaps ORD, which OS no longer serves. Both markets are, of course, key hubs for its Star Alliance partner, UA.

Perhaps OS should focus solely on the fully-renovated 767-300ER with high-quality C cabins for these key destinations and release the 777-200ER from its fleet.

Get to work, OS and LH.
 
Semaex
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RE: OS In Financial Trouble Again

Sat Dec 03, 2011 7:10 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 37):

Quoting leftyboarder (Reply 22):
LH or LX can't operate OS routes from VIE unless open skies exists

LH/LX can't do that??

As far as traffic ex and to EU countries is concerned, LH can do whatever they want with VIE and OS. Everything out of this open-sky area is a different matter. I believe there are bilaterals between Austria and other countries which would not allow a German carrier to simply fly the route. That is all speculation from my part, feel free to enlighten me otherwise.

Quoting pdpsol (Reply 39):

Good post, positive thinking.
I just mailed a friend at VIE air traffic who might have more insight on the SkyLink issue. I will not believe any print report until I hear it from somebody inside. Austrian politicians have messed up too much over the VIE issue in the last years, I hope you understand that I have no trust in whatever they say.
// You know you're an aviation enthusiast when you look at your neighbour's cars and think about fleet commonality.
 
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Polot
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RE: OS In Financial Trouble Again

Sat Dec 03, 2011 7:30 pm

Quoting Semaex (Reply 40):
As far as traffic ex and to EU countries is concerned, LH can do whatever they want with VIE and OS. Everything out of this open-sky area is a different matter. I believe there are bilaterals between Austria and other countries which would not allow a German carrier to simply fly the route. That is all speculation from my part, feel free to enlighten me otherwise.

  
The EU can only ensure that any airline can fly any route it wants within the EU because it has jurisdiction over that area. The EU is not a country though. International flights (and by international I am lumping the EU together) depend on the bilateral. If there is a bilateral between the entire EU and the other country (as with the US), then it is not an issue. If the bilateral is only between Austria and the other country (country X), and does not allow any other airlines except those from country X and Austria to fly between the countries, then the bilateral must be renegotiated before LH could fly the route. Many places probably wouldn't have a problem with this, but there would probably be a few that would want to play hardball.

Now the issue gets muddied a bit since OS is German owned, it may not be a huge issue if LH takes over the flights, but it is not as simple as LH being able to do it because it is part of the EU.

[Edited 2011-12-03 11:34:16]
 
Semaex
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RE: OS In Financial Trouble Again

Sat Dec 03, 2011 7:40 pm

Quoting polot (Reply 41):

Now the issue gets muddied a bit since OS is German owned, it may not be a huge issue if LH takes over the flights, but it is not as simple as LH being able to do it because it is part of the EU.

Not quite correct. Although in real life OS is owned by LH (a german company), there is a middle-company involved which is based in Austria. That's why legally speaking, OS is owned by an austrian company (which in return is owned by LH).
// You know you're an aviation enthusiast when you look at your neighbour's cars and think about fleet commonality.
 
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Polot
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RE: OS In Financial Trouble Again

Sat Dec 03, 2011 7:45 pm

Quoting Semaex (Reply 42):
Not quite correct. Although in real life OS is owned by LH (a german company), there is a middle-company involved which is based in Austria. That's why legally speaking, OS is owned by an austrian company (which in return is owned by LH).

I see, I didn't know that. Then it is clear. LH can only fly between VIE and another (non EU) nation if the bilateral allows it. Both being part of the EU is completely meaningless if the EU as a whole does not have a bilateral with the country.
 
LOWS
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RE: OS In Financial Trouble Again

Sat Dec 03, 2011 8:06 pm

Quoting ju068 (Reply 38):
By the way, when was the new terminal originally schedlued to be opened?

I think 2010. They started in 2004 and are about 400€m over budget.
 
JU068
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RE: OS In Financial Trouble Again

Sat Dec 03, 2011 8:40 pm

Quoting LOWS (Reply 44):
I think 2010. They started in 2004 and are about 400€m over budget.

Was any official explanation given to as why they went so much over the budget?
 
LOWS
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RE: OS In Financial Trouble Again

Sat Dec 03, 2011 9:00 pm

Quoting ju068 (Reply 45):
Was any official explanation given to as why they went so much over the budget?

Yes. It's the way we do business in Austria.         
 
Semaex
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RE: OS In Financial Trouble Again

Sat Dec 03, 2011 9:43 pm

Quoting ju068 (Reply 45):

Was any official explanation given to as why they went so much over the budget?
Quoting LOWS (Reply 46):

Harsh  

The money has probably sunk somewhere in the depths of corruption and bad initial planned mixed with an investor who chickened out - basically all you could ask for. As for the details of why the terminal is not yet complete... we might never know
// You know you're an aviation enthusiast when you look at your neighbour's cars and think about fleet commonality.
 
ytz
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RE: OS In Financial Trouble Again

Mon Dec 05, 2011 4:31 pm

Quoting laca773 (Reply 20):
I'm surprised LH/LX has decided to wait to replace them with the C-Series which won't be out for a few more years when they could have gone with the E90s.

I know waiting is rough, but I do believe that was the right aircraft for the job. Actually I think the C-Series would work really well for OS and VO. VO could replace the remaining Fokker 70s with Q400s and F-100s with CS100s. CS300s would serve OS well to replace their 73G/736/A319 fleets.

But they do need consolidation overall. Why are they flying both Boeing and Airbus narrowbodies and Fokkers on top of that? And I've always been surprised that OS never ordered 788s. Seems like the perfect type for OS. The 77Es seem like too much airplane for them. I would think that a fleet of 14-15 788s would serve them better than the 9 763s and 4 77Es they have today.
 
LOWS
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RE: OS In Financial Trouble Again

Mon Dec 05, 2011 5:27 pm

Quoting YTZ (Reply 48):

I know waiting is rough, but I do believe that was the right aircraft for the job. Actually I think the C-Series would work really well for OS and VO. VO could replace the remaining Fokker 70s with Q400s and F-100s with CS100s. CS300s would serve OS well to replace their 73G/736/A319 fleets.

But they do need consolidation overall. Why are they flying both Boeing and Airbus narrowbodies and Fokkers on top of that? And I've always been surprised that OS never ordered 788s. Seems like the perfect type for OS. The 77Es seem like too much airplane for them. I would think that a fleet of 14-15 788s would serve them better than the 9 763s and 4 77Es they have today.

The F100s and 70s would be perfectly replaced with the Cseries. The 788 and maybe a few 789s would be perfect for the longhaul fleet. Some A32Xs would be perfect for the intra-European fleet. The Q400s are perfect for Intra-Austria.

But how much LH is willing to invest in the OS fleet, and in OS generally is another question entirely.

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