Viscount724
Topic Author
Posts: 18846
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

Long AC Diversion To YVR Due Unruly Passengers

Fri Dec 02, 2011 1:37 am

http://www.therecord.com/news/local/...ployees-force-plane-to-turn-around

AC31, 77W on Monday en route from YYZ to PEK, about 350 nm from the North Pole, when it diverted to YVR due two drunk and unruly passengers, both employees of Research in Motion, maker of the BlackBerry. Passengers had to be restrained and handcuffed to their seats. Doesn't say whether they were in J or Y class.

The crew orginally requested to divert to ANC but changed their mind and went to YVR, landing almost 11 hours and 5,000 miles after leaving YYZ. The other 312 passengers had to be put up in hotels overnight before continuing their trip to PEK, arriving 18 hours late. The two passengers responsible spent the night in jail and were given one-year suspended sentences and probation and have been ordered to pay over $70,000 restitution to AC. I suppose they may also be looking for new jobs.

Following from Transport Canada daily incident summary:

The Air Canada Boeing 777-333ER, operating as ACA031 IFR Toronto (CYYZ) to Beijing (ZBAA), was at 34,000 feet at 84 00 N 136 00 W, and requested clearance to Anchorage, AK, USA (PANC) due to an unruly passenger. Clearance was provided as requested.
UPDATE from FAA Operations: Anchorage, AK security event . ACA31 experienced an unruly passenger. The passenger was restrained and the aircraft was planning to divert to Anchorage. The aircraft diverted instead to Vancouver with ETA of 0600z (2200PST). ACA31 landed in Vancouver Runway 08R without further incident at 0611z (2211PST).


[Edited 2011-12-01 17:49:39]

[Edited 2011-12-01 17:53:04]

[Edited 2011-12-01 17:54:38]
 
AirCanada787
Posts: 255
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 2010 7:56 am

RE: Long AC Diversion To YVR Due Unruly Passengers

Fri Dec 02, 2011 1:44 am

I just posted this, 2 minutes after Viscount724 so my thread should be deleted.

I would just like to add that it apparently took the entire flight crew to subdue the two men and Research in Motion has suspended the employees but not fired them yet pending additional information. I'm happy that the men have been fined in this case, there is often a lot of talk on here about charging or fining people that cause such diversions and in his case I think they completely deserved it.

Link and video news report on the story from CTV News:
http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/TopStories...runk-flight-diversion-fine-111201/
The mind, like a parachute, functions only when open.
 
WestJet747
Posts: 1950
Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2011 7:43 pm

RE: Long AC Diversion To YVR Due Unruly Passengers

Fri Dec 02, 2011 6:06 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Thread starter):
Doesn't say whether they were in J or Y class.

I've heard from other sources that it was in J, and both of these men held Elite Top Tier status with AC.
Flying refined.
 
spacecadet
Posts: 2788
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2001 3:36 am

RE: Long AC Diversion To YVR Due Unruly Passengers

Fri Dec 02, 2011 6:20 am

There are a bunch of weird things about this story.

1) Why is their employer important? When that story about the guy who punched the B6 fa the other day came out, was he referred to as a "drunk and unruly Denny's employee"? And I don't remember people saying "he should be fired!" in addition to being arrested. Yet in every story I've seen about this online, the fact that these guys are RIM employees is headline material. I just can't figure out why. Are RIM employees supposed to be somehow immune from acting like idiots?

2) What on Earth really happened here? Nobody seems to be saying. I find it hard to understand how two guys who supposedly had Elite Top Tier status would suddenly go and screw things up so royally for themselves and everyone else for no good reason. Something had to set them off. I'm not saying there's much of anything that could excuse this behavior, but I am just curious what they could have possibly been thinking. People who have high levels of status generally want to keep it. There's an important part of this story that's not being told, and that's weird too.
I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
 
777ER
Crew
Posts: 9854
Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2003 5:04 pm

RE: Long AC Diversion To YVR Due Unruly Passengers

Fri Dec 02, 2011 6:39 am

One question needs to be asked and I know I'm most likly going to get burnt for this, but how involved where the FAs in this incident, did the passengers get fully drunk on the flight or were they already drunk while boarding in YYZ? I'm not excusing the offending passengers or giving an excuse but if the pax got drunk on the flight then maybe the FAs should face some action from AC because isn't it the crews job to ensure the safety of all pax? Ensuring the safety of all pax should surly also involve preventing them from getting drunk on the flight as FAs have a right to refuse
 
Maverick623
Posts: 4632
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 9:13 am

RE: Long AC Diversion To YVR Due Unruly Passengers

Fri Dec 02, 2011 6:54 am

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 3):

1) Why is their employer important? When that story about the guy who punched the B6 fa the other day came out, was he referred to as a "drunk and unruly Denny's employee"? And I don't remember people saying "he should be fired!" in addition to being arrested. Yet in every story I've seen about this online, the fact that these guys are RIM employees is headline material. I just can't figure out why. Are RIM employees supposed to be somehow immune from acting like idiots?

It sounds like they may have been on a business trip, and/or may have been relatively high up on the totem pole.

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 3):


2) What on Earth really happened here? Nobody seems to be saying. I find it hard to understand how two guys who supposedly had Elite Top Tier status would suddenly go and screw things up so royally for themselves and everyone else for no good reason. Something had to set them off. I'm not saying there's much of anything that could excuse this behavior, but I am just curious what they could have possibly been thinking. People who have high levels of status generally want to keep it. There's an important part of this story that's not being told, and that's weird too.

The story posted quoted a passenger who said they were drunk. Given that they pleaded guilty to mischief, I'd say the report is accurate. Alcohol (like any other drug) affects people's actions... to the point where two well-off, well-rounded people can turn into an absolute nightmare.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
quiet1
Posts: 282
Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2010 7:39 am

RE: Long AC Diversion To YVR Due Unruly Passengers

Fri Dec 02, 2011 9:39 am

Quoting 777ER (Reply 4):
One question needs to be asked and I know I'm most likly going to get burnt for this, but how involved where the FAs in this incident, did the passengers get fully drunk on the flight or were they already drunk while boarding in YYZ? I'm not excusing the offending passengers or giving an excuse but if the pax got drunk on the flight then maybe the FAs should face some action from AC because isn't it the crews job to ensure the safety of all pax? Ensuring the safety of all pax should surly also involve preventing them from getting drunk on the flight as FAs have a right to refuse

I'm curious: What device/criteria/procedure do you think F/A's possess to determine when a passengers consuming alcohol on board are going to cross the threshold into being drunken jackasses?
 
Kaiarahi
Posts: 1807
Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2009 6:55 pm

RE: Long AC Diversion To YVR Due Unruly Passengers

Fri Dec 02, 2011 1:30 pm

Quoting 777ER (Reply 4):
Ensuring the safety of all pax should surly also involve preventing them from getting drunk on the flight as FAs have a right to refuse

1. In J, pax may be served by any of the F/As at different times - you'd need to keep a chart in the galley for each pax and estimate their respective tolerance to alcohol; and
2. There's a self-serve bar on AC's 777s.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 5):
It sounds like they ... may have been relatively high up on the totem pole.

Is that just pure speculation or do you have a source?
Empty vessels make the most noise.
 
Airontario
Posts: 593
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2001 12:04 am

RE: Long AC Diversion To YVR Due Unruly Passengers

Fri Dec 02, 2011 2:21 pm

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 7):
2. There's a self-serve bar on AC's 777s.

...and no doubt these guys were helping themselves to the self-serve bar at the Maple Leaf lounge before departure.

I think it's time Air Canada looks at the idea of self-service alcohol.
 
connies4ever
Posts: 3393
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2006 10:54 pm

RE: Long AC Diversion To YVR Due Unruly Passengers

Fri Dec 02, 2011 2:35 pm

Quoting 777ER (Reply 4):
One question needs to be asked and I know I'm most likly going to get burnt for this, but how involved where the FAs in this incident, did the passengers get fully drunk on the flight or were they already drunk while boarding in YYZ? I'm not excusing the offending passengers or giving an excuse but if the pax got drunk on the flight then maybe the FAs should face some action from AC because isn't it the crews job to ensure the safety of all pax? Ensuring the safety of all pax should surly also involve preventing them from getting drunk on the flight as FAs have a right to refuse

I'd say correct, although noting as per another comment that it might be that several FAs were serving, so total consumption was not tracked. But it's the same in a bar, staff need to be mindful of not over-serving. In fact in several jurisdictions in Canada and the USA there are mandatory courses for bar staff regarding thi stopic.

I have seen pax cut off in flight. Some go quietly, some are outraged. One in particular I remember was a former Tory canibet minister in the 1980s who was cutoff last leg of a YOW-YWG-YYC Christmas flight. When he was cut off he was sitting on the armrest of his aisle seat with his cowboy boots resting on the seat across the aisle. Took umbrage at being told to sit down.

Quoting airontario (Reply 8):

I think it's time Air Canada looks at the idea of self-service alcohol.

Self-serve bars are a growing trend in F/J/Y+ all over the world. Less of a need for an additional FA or two on a long-haul.

Long diversion, though.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
User avatar
yyz717
Posts: 15689
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2001 12:26 pm

RE: Long AC Diversion To YVR Due Unruly Passengers

Fri Dec 02, 2011 3:58 pm

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 3):
1) Why is their employer important?

When you are travelling on business, you are a representative of your company at all times. So it is relevant.

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 3):
2) What on Earth really happened here?

Good question.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
WestJet747
Posts: 1950
Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2011 7:43 pm

RE: Long AC Diversion To YVR Due Unruly Passengers

Fri Dec 02, 2011 4:06 pm

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 3):
1) Why is their employer important? When that story about the guy who punched the B6 fa the other day came out, was he referred to as a "drunk and unruly Denny's employee"? And I don't remember people saying "he should be fired!" in addition to being arrested. Yet in every story I've seen about this online, the fact that these guys are RIM employees is headline material. I just can't figure out why. Are RIM employees supposed to be somehow immune from acting like idiots?

These men were not low-level employees within the RIM organization, and I understand that they were on a business-related trip.

RIM is a company that holds itself in very high esteem. Securing a job there is no easy task since they only hire the best-of-the-best. The fact that two management types from one of Canada's most recognizable corporations got charged due to being sloshed on a trans-pacific flight is highly damaging to the company's image, especially in an industry where reputation plays a critical role.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 10):
When you are travelling on business, you are a representative of your company at all times. So it is relevant.

        
Flying refined.
 
connies4ever
Posts: 3393
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2006 10:54 pm

RE: Long AC Diversion To YVR Due Unruly Passengers

Fri Dec 02, 2011 4:29 pm

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 10):

When you are travelling on business, you are a representative of your company at all times. So it is relevant.

Quite. Several times I've had the privilege of attending conferences overseas, and I also served on a committee at the International Atomic Energy Agency in Vienna. Not only was I representing my employer, I was representing my country. And I believe I acted in an appropriate manner.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
User avatar
longhauler
Posts: 4941
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:00 am

RE: Long AC Diversion To YVR Due Unruly Passengers

Fri Dec 02, 2011 5:55 pm

Quoting 777ER (Reply 4):
then maybe the FAs should face some action from AC because isn't it the crews job to ensure the safety of all pax?
Quoting airontario (Reply 8):
I think it's time Air Canada looks at the idea of self-service alcohol.

I am not saying I disagree with these comments, but I see this alarming trend in the way we view society.

No longer are we at fault for our own actions. It's always someone else's fault. That thousands of F and J passengers travel every day, and those aircraft make it safely to their destinations is a good indicator that most people are capable of acting like adults, and not High School kids seeing "free" liquor with zest!
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
ryu2
Posts: 1545
Joined: Tue Aug 06, 2002 8:18 am

RE: Long AC Diversion To YVR Due Unruly Passengers

Fri Dec 02, 2011 7:45 pm

Seems there's more to this story!

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/02/bu...?_r=2&nl=todaysheadlines&emc=tha26

The article mentions that Air Canada made this decision to divert because they were worried about the Chinese impounding the plane. Why would that have happened?
 
diverdave
Posts: 446
Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 1:00 am

RE: Long AC Diversion To YVR Due Unruly Passengers

Fri Dec 02, 2011 7:46 pm

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 11):
RIM is a company that holds itself in very high esteem. Securing a job there is no easy task since they only hire the best-of-the-best. The fact that two management types from one of Canada's most recognizable corporations got charged due to being sloshed on a trans-pacific flight is highly damaging to the company's image, especially in an industry where reputation plays a critical role.

Good points.

In the USA, alcoholism is a protected disability under ADA.

David
 
YYZYYT
Posts: 899
Joined: Tue Apr 05, 2005 12:41 am

RE: Long AC Diversion To YVR Due Unruly Passengers

Fri Dec 02, 2011 7:52 pm

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 9):

I'd say correct, although noting as per another comment that it might be that several FAs were serving, so total consumption was not tracked. But it's the same in a bar, staff need to be mindful of not over-serving. In fact in several jurisdictions in Canada and the USA there are mandatory courses for bar staff regarding thi stopic.

Including Ontario. Having worked as a barttender (a long time ago, however) I was required to take the training, and told that patrons who appear intoxicated should not be served... in fact I think that the Liquor Control Act says that it is illegal as well. While it was impossible to keep track of drinks served, we were actually expected to enforce that rule, and we did.

That was a one-day course to a student bartender... I am sure FA's are trained to be at least that vigilant, given all that is at stake and all that they are expected to do.

Trouble is, people hold their liquor differently, and some can drink a huge amonut before they show it...
 
haggisman
Posts: 51
Joined: Thu Feb 25, 2010 2:53 pm

RE: Long AC Diversion To YVR Due Unruly Passengers

Fri Dec 02, 2011 8:03 pm

Haha - like the last paragraph in the New York Times article:

"Incidentally, it appears that none of the 312 other people aboard the Air Canada flight, which was ultimately delayed by 18 hours, pulled out a BlackBerry, or any other smartphone for that matter, to post a message about the episode. "

Scotty
e pluribus Scotsman
 
Grid
Posts: 253
Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2010 4:26 am

RE: Long AC Diversion To YVR Due Unruly Passengers

Fri Dec 02, 2011 8:29 pm

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 5):
The story posted quoted a passenger who said they were drunk. Given that they pleaded guilty to mischief, I'd say the report is accurate.

People plead guilty for various reasons and often it's not because the facts, as construed by authorities, are accurate or that the person actually what he or she is alleged to have done.

Quoting ryu2 (Reply 14):
The article mentions that Air Canada made this decision to divert because they were worried about the Chinese impounding the plane. Why would that have happened?

Broad authority to seize, for trial, property on which an offense occurred? No idea really.

The NY Times article says the men were eventually separated so does sound like they were fighting between themselves.
ATR72 E120 E140 E170 E190 Q200 717 727 737 747 757 767 777 A319 A320 A321 A330 A340 MD11 MD82 MD83 MD88 MD90
 
threepoint
Posts: 1292
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2005 10:49 am

RE: Long AC Diversion To YVR Due Unruly Passengers

Fri Dec 02, 2011 9:16 pm

Quoting airontario (Reply 8):
...and no doubt these guys were helping themselves to the self-serve bar at the Maple Leaf lounge before departure.

I think it's time Air Canada looks at the idea of self-service alcohol.

"no doubt"? Do you have any sort of basis for your assertion? Quite frankly you have no idea if these men drank before boarding nor where they obtained their alcohol if they did.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 10):
When you are travelling on business, you are a representative of your company at all times. So it is relevant.

I agree with your premise that we represent our employers, but cases like this, assigning 'guilt by association' is a step too far. No worthy editor who published the name of the employer failed to consider the obvious negative light in which the company will be regarded as a result of this story. The company is having a hard enough time at present, and this firm kick while on their knees is the last thing they needed. Sadly, too often people tend to judge many by the actions of a few.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 13):
No longer are we at fault for our own actions.

Great point. Although the very short time between incident & justice (added to the fact they were levied a not inconsequential fine) indicates that finally, some personal accountability was imposed. These guys are out $70K, are banned from travel on the airline, will likely lose their jobs and having their full names plastered in the media, will probably have great difficulty finding new ones.

Quoting Grid (Reply 18):
The NY Times article says the men were eventually separated so does sound like they were fighting between themselves.

No it does not. That's an indefensible leap in logic.
The nice thing about a mistake is the pleasure it gives others.
 
Grid
Posts: 253
Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2010 4:26 am

RE: Long AC Diversion To YVR Due Unruly Passengers

Fri Dec 02, 2011 9:33 pm

Quoting threepoint (Reply 19):
No it does not. That's an indefensible leap in logic.

The article does not say that? Yes, it does. And I said it sounds, emphasis on sounds, like they were ... as in to convey or make the impression that. It's a fairly subjective observation and I'll stand by my opinion; you can continue to pontificate with your silly "indefensible leap in logic" remarks.
ATR72 E120 E140 E170 E190 Q200 717 727 737 747 757 767 777 A319 A320 A321 A330 A340 MD11 MD82 MD83 MD88 MD90
 
threepoint
Posts: 1292
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2005 10:49 am

RE: Long AC Diversion To YVR Due Unruly Passengers

Fri Dec 02, 2011 9:49 pm

Quoting Grid (Reply 20):

Please read the article again. Then please show us where it says the men were (or could have been, or looked like they were about to be) fighting between themselves?

In fact it seems to state the opposite: Cpl. Sherrdean Turley, a spokeswoman for the police, said in an e-mail that although the two men were not brawling “they were intoxicated and weren’t listening to anything they were told to do/asked to do by the airline crew.”?
The nice thing about a mistake is the pleasure it gives others.
 
United727
Posts: 351
Joined: Sat Nov 13, 2010 1:26 am

RE: Long AC Diversion To YVR Due Unruly Passengers

Fri Dec 02, 2011 10:49 pm

OK...if I haven't missed anything in the posts...IF they were indeed intoxicated BEFORE boarding, why were they allowed to board in the first place. Are there not procedures for "Denied Boarding" under these circumstances??? So, therefore, wouldn't that put Customer Service (CS) at YYZ in-line for questioning as well, beyond that of the FA's?? I don't care what status these individual's may allegedly have on AC, but that SHOULD NOT put them in a position to circumvent Denied Boarding procedures at the gate, correct?
 
StarAC17
Posts: 3400
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 11:54 am

RE: Long AC Diversion To YVR Due Unruly Passengers

Fri Dec 02, 2011 11:42 pm

Quoting quiet1 (Reply 6):
I'm curious: What device/criteria/procedure do you think F/A's possess to determine when a passengers consuming alcohol on board are going to cross the threshold into being drunken jackasses?

You do what a bartender does and cut them off. If you are at a big pub or club it is unlikely that you will get served every time by the same person, however there is communication between the bar staff of whom has had too many. Also you are trained to look for the signs of intoxication. Surely FA's go through this training, if not they should because they are serving alcohol.

Unfortunately you can't give someone the boot in a plane like in a pub, so this is the best that AC could do to say "You're outta here"

Quoting airontario (Reply 8):
I think it's time Air Canada looks at the idea of self-service alcohol.

Why?

I don't know about everyone else but as I get older I'm getting pretty tired of irresponsible idiots ruining the fun for the rest of us who would know their tolerance or limits. This isn't just from booze but many other things.
Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
 
AirCanada787
Posts: 255
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 2010 7:56 am

RE: Long AC Diversion To YVR Due Unruly Passengers

Sat Dec 03, 2011 12:28 am

Quoting YYZYYT (Reply 16):
Quoting connies4ever (Reply 9):

I'd say correct, although noting as per another comment that it might be that several FAs were serving, so total consumption was not tracked. But it's the same in a bar, staff need to be mindful of not over-serving. In fact in several jurisdictions in Canada and the USA there are mandatory courses for bar staff regarding thi stopic.

Including Ontario. Having worked as a barttender (a long time ago, however) I was required to take the training, and told that patrons who appear intoxicated should not be served... in fact I think that the Liquor Control Act says that it is illegal as well. While it was impossible to keep track of drinks served, we were actually expected to enforce that rule, and we did.

That was a one-day course to a student bartender... I am sure FA's are trained to be at least that vigilant, given all that is at stake and all that they are expected to do.

Trouble is, people hold their liquor differently, and some can drink a huge amonut before they show it...

I've undergone training as a bartender, a multi-week program held in my case at a university and with materials from the Canadian Tourism Human Resource Council and there is indeed training about when to cut people off. As well as how to do it, I'm not sure what type of training flight attendants go through hopefully someone else will comment on that. I agree that when you have multiple people serving in this case passengers then you need to communicate with each other if someone appears to be reaching their limit or drinking too quickly.

Quoting threepoint (Reply 19):
Quoting yyz717 (Reply 10):
When you are travelling on business, you are a representative of your company at all times. So it is relevant.

I agree with your premise that we represent our employers, but cases like this, assigning 'guilt by association' is a step too far

I don't really think that he was trying to assign any guilt to the employer but it seems that as soon as this story broke the news that they were RIM employees has been part of the story.

Quoting United727 (Reply 22):
OK...if I haven't missed anything in the posts...IF they were indeed intoxicated BEFORE boarding, why were they allowed to board in the first place. Are there not procedures for "Denied Boarding" under these circumstances??? So, therefore, wouldn't that put Customer Service (CS) at YYZ in-line for questioning as well, beyond that of the FA's?? I don't care what status these individual's may allegedly have on AC, but that SHOULD NOT put them in a position to circumvent Denied Boarding procedures at the gate, correct?

But do we know that they were intoxicated before boarding? I may have missed something but any news of the story that I have heard hasn't said that they were. Of course if they were clearly intoxicated before boarding then I hope that the customer service agents would have taken proper steps to deny boarding. By the time the decision was made to divert the plan was already quite far from YYZ so I would suspect that they drank a lot on board and that is why there was a problem.

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 23):
Quoting airontario (Reply 8):
I think it's time Air Canada looks at the idea of self-service alcohol.

Why?

I don't know about everyone else but as I get older I'm getting pretty tired of irresponsible idiots ruining the fun for the rest of us who would know their tolerance or limits. This isn't just from booze but many other things.

        
The mind, like a parachute, functions only when open.
 
User avatar
yyz717
Posts: 15689
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2001 12:26 pm

RE: Long AC Diversion To YVR Due Unruly Passengers

Sat Dec 03, 2011 6:54 am

Quoting threepoint (Reply 19):
I agree with your premise that we represent our employers, but cases like this, assigning 'guilt by association' is a step too far. No worthy editor who published the name of the employer failed to consider the obvious negative light in which the company will be regarded as a result of this story. The company is having a hard enough time at present, and this firm kick while on their knees is the last thing they needed. Sadly, too often people tend to judge many by the actions of a few.

I disagree. RIM sent them to China. They were on the flight ONLY because they were RIM employees flying on RIM business. Period. They were, therefore, the representatives of RIM on board that flight. Hence, it was not 2 passengers that caused the diversion, but 2 employees of RIM. RIM decided they were mature enough and mentally fit enough to fly on AC, and RIM was wrong....so now RIM pays the price. Shame on these 2 twits but also shame on RIM.

Highlighting RIM as the employer will force RIM to pay attention to the issue of who they send on flights, and force RIM to discipline the employees (in the semi-public eye anyway).

I'm glad they were fined by AC. I hope they are fired by RIM. I also hope AC will ban them from AC flights for life....but that might be a wish too far.

I can only imagine the missed business meetings, family get togethers and vacations delayed or ruined for the other passengers by these 2 bozos.

Let's hope their names are published.  
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
spacecadet
Posts: 2788
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2001 3:36 am

RE: Long AC Diversion To YVR Due Unruly Passengers

Sat Dec 03, 2011 7:11 am

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 5):
The story posted quoted a passenger who said they were drunk.

This is not really relevant to the question at hand. Many, many people drink who do not force airplanes to divert. I drink nearly every night, as a lot of people do, and have never once gotten into an altercation. I drink pretty much every time I fly long distance and have never once caused a ruckus, and I see many other people doing the same on every such flight that I take. And that means countless others do it every day on other flights that I don't take, without causing diversions.

The question is what caused these particular guys to get into this situation? Not whether or not they were drunk. Focusing on them being drunk is like focusing on bad weather after a plane crash, even though countless other planes flew through that same weather with no problems.

Even the Times article says "What provoked the episode, other than alcohol, is unclear." So there is still not an answer to the question of what provoked this couple of guys, drunk or not.

A couple of things in the Times article struck me, notably that they "weren’t listening to anything they were told to do/asked to do" and that "Other passengers became involved in the situation ... as Air Canada flight crew members tried to restrain the men." First, what could they have been "asked to do" on a long-haul flight already past Alaska? Flight attendants don't normally ask passengers to do anything at that point. And then, what were they being "restrained" from doing? I see no suggestion in the article that they were fighting either amongst themselves or with anyone else (the article specifically says they were not "brawling"). It's bizarre that these details are being kept seemingly under wraps.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 11):
These men were not low-level employees within the RIM organization, and I understand that they were on a business-related trip.

I still don't see why this is relevant or what it's even relevant to. In other words, what is the fact that they're RIM employees supposed to make me think? That RIM is a bad company for hiring people like this? That these people should be better people just because they work at RIM? That I should no longer buy RIM products because a couple of their employees forced a plane to divert? I honestly can't figure out what this detail adds to the story or what I'm meant to do with this information. Yet it continues to be the primary focus of most of the stories posted about this incident. It seems like more of a detail to satisfy prurient interest; it's salacious, but unimportant.

As far as I can tell, this is just two unruly guys on an airplane who got into some unspecified altercation with the cabin crew for reasons that remain unclear. I'm curious to know more, but there doesn't seem to be much real detail about this incident out there, and I don't know why that is.
I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
 
GALLEYSTEW
Posts: 18
Joined: Thu Dec 27, 2007 7:25 pm

RE: Long AC Diversion To YVR Due Unruly Passengers

Sat Dec 03, 2011 12:17 pm

Equation.....alcohol +ambien= disaster. Just a thought.
All Posts are my opinions only.
 
Kaiarahi
Posts: 1807
Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2009 6:55 pm

RE: Long AC Diversion To YVR Due Unruly Passengers

Sat Dec 03, 2011 12:52 pm

Let's try some facts!

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 25):
I'm glad they were fined by AC

They weren't. They were ordered to make restitution by a court.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 25):
I also hope AC will ban them from AC flights for life

The court banned them for a year.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 25):
Let's hope their names are published.

Their names have been published since the story was first reported. If you take the trouble to look, you can find them in about 10 seconds.
Empty vessels make the most noise.
 
ltbewr
Posts: 12361
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

RE: Long AC Diversion To YVR Due Unruly Passengers

Sat Dec 03, 2011 2:14 pm

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 26):
A couple of things in the Times article struck me, notably that they "weren’t listening to anything they were told to do/asked to do" and that "Other passengers became involved in the situation ... as Air Canada flight crew members tried to restrain the men." First, what could they have been "asked to do" on a long-haul flight already past Alaska? Flight attendants don't normally ask passengers to do anything at that point. And then, what were they being "restrained" from doing? I see no suggestion in the article that they were fighting either amongst themselves or with anyone else (the article specifically says they were not "brawling"). It's bizarre that these details are being kept seemingly under wraps.



I would suspect that the 2 pax were not obeying the orders as to in-flight safety and security as well as annoying other pax, including the use of foul language or otherwise offensive behaviors - which can far too often come out while drunk. They could have been walking around too much, perhaps the flight was in or around turbulence so should have been in their seats with the belts for their own and other's safety. Perhaps they were disobeying the f/a's as to not get more drinks and may have pushed or shoved one or more with them. FA's have zero tolerance backed by their airline and the governments of the home country of their airline as to any assaults of flight crews. I would not doubt they were loud, annoying other pax who may be just trying to get some sleep or otherwise relax and didn't need nor should they tolarate such behavior.

It appears the situation was bad enough to take such action and I give support to AC in having enough guts to take the actions they did on these two fools.
 
threepoint
Posts: 1292
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2005 10:49 am

RE: Long AC Diversion To YVR Due Unruly Passengers

Sat Dec 03, 2011 6:48 pm

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 25):
I disagree. RIM sent them to China. They were on the flight ONLY because they were RIM employees flying on RIM business. Period. They were, therefore, the representatives of RIM on board that flight. Hence, it was not 2 passengers that caused the diversion, but 2 employees of RIM. RIM decided they were mature enough and mentally fit enough to fly on AC, and RIM was wrong....so now RIM pays the price. Shame on these 2 twits but also shame on RIM.

Not at all, unless you advocate a sobering surrendering of individual rights and responsibility. Most employers do their due diligence, but how do you propose that RIM or any other company can prevent two of its employees from misbehaving outside the office? You imply some sort of psychological assessment by the employer may have been required prior to letting them out of their cubicle. I'm interested in what safeguards and assurances you can suggest that can guarantee that I, as an employee myself, do not make an error in judgment and publicly embarrass my firm next time I travel on company business. I don't see the benefit to revealing the name of the employer of these two gentlemen, er clowns, no matter how large the company. Would it have been published if they were two staff from Bill's Plumbing Warehouse in Brampton? Exceptions (publicly-elected officials for example) do of course exist. Just ask Ms. Guergis.
Following your logic, if two people on the way to visit family (they were on a flight only for this purpose) had misbehaved in similar fashion, how should we hold the family members accountable for the actions of the passengers?

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 25):
Let's hope their names are published.

I was going to state that their names have been in the public domain since the story surfaced a few days ago, had you cared to look. But I wonder WHY you want their names public? We really ought not to participate in some sort of mob mentality, braying for justice, when an event occurs that affects us in no way at all. I'm satisfied they were duly punished for their actions. Can we just leave it at that?
The nice thing about a mistake is the pleasure it gives others.
 
WestJet747
Posts: 1950
Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2011 7:43 pm

RE: Long AC Diversion To YVR Due Unruly Passengers

Sat Dec 03, 2011 7:01 pm

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 26):
First, what could they have been "asked to do" on a long-haul flight already past Alaska? Flight attendants don't normally ask passengers to do anything at that point.

It may be what they were asked not to do.

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 26):
And then, what were they being "restrained" from doing? I see no suggestion in the article that they were fighting either amongst themselves or with anyone else (the article specifically says they were not "brawling")

Again, they may have been asked to stop doing something, which they did not. They may not have been"brawling", but if they were becoming physical in a threatening manner whatsoever then it would certainly be grounds for restraint.

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 26):
I still don't see why this is relevant or what it's even relevant to. In other words, what is the fact that they're RIM employees supposed to make me think? That RIM is a bad company for hiring people like this? That these people should be better people just because they work at RIM? That I should no longer buy RIM products because a couple of their employees forced a plane to divert? I honestly can't figure out what this detail adds to the story or what I'm meant to do with this information. Yet it continues to be the primary focus of most of the stories posted about this incident. It seems like more of a detail to satisfy prurient interest; it's salacious, but unimportant.

It shouldn't make you think that, but it might. When people see that misbehaving management or executives' misdeeds are publicized, the average consumer now has that association in their subconscious. The reason that their company was brought is because as I stated earlier:

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 11):
RIM is a company that holds itself in very high esteem. Securing a job there is no easy task since they only hire the best-of-the-best. The fact that two management types from one of Canada's most recognizable corporations got charged due to being sloshed on a trans-pacific flight is highly damaging to the company's image, especially in an industry where reputation plays a critical role.
Flying refined.
 
User avatar
yyz717
Posts: 15689
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2001 12:26 pm

RE: Long AC Diversion To YVR Due Unruly Passengers

Sun Dec 04, 2011 12:54 am

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 28):
Their names have been published since the story was first reported. If you take the trouble to look, you can find them in about 10 seconds.

I can't really be bothered as I don't care who they are. No doubt many have looked into their names as you have out of curiosity.

Quoting threepoint (Reply 30):
how do you propose that RIM or any other company can prevent two of its employees from misbehaving outside the office?

The suspension (and possible firing) of these 2 individuals will serve as a future warning and hopeful deterent for immature RIM employees who can't hold their liquor. That's all that can be done.

Quoting threepoint (Reply 30):
You imply some sort of psychological assessment by the employer may have been required prior to letting them out of their cubicle.

Nope...you're reaching again.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 13757
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

RE: Long AC Diversion To YVR Due Unruly Passengers

Sun Dec 04, 2011 2:02 am

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 3):
Something had to set them off. I'm not saying there's much of anything that could excuse this behavior, but I am just curious what they could have possibly been thinking. People who have high levels of status generally want to keep it. There's an important part of this story that's not being told, and that's weird too.

Huh? Above you say you are quite familiar with alcohol, but you seem to think they needed something to set them off? If someone is drunk enough, they need nil, ninca, nada, zilch, nothing to set them off. Not a single thing. We had the case of the businessman who crapped on the drinks cart. Why? No reason, none at all, other than excess alcohol is sufficient to explain it.

Quoting threepoint (Reply 19):
I agree with your premise that we represent our employers, but cases like this, assigning 'guilt by association' is a step too far.

The diversion due to the behavior is naturally going to be news due to its impact on the other passengers. Then the very next question to ask is who were these two guys and what is their relationship to each other. I don't see anyone saying just because these two were from RIM, that all folks from RIM are guilty of something. If you're making that leap, that's on you, not the media.
Inspiration, move me brightly!
 
threepoint
Posts: 1292
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2005 10:49 am

RE: Long AC Diversion To YVR Due Unruly Passengers

Sun Dec 04, 2011 8:05 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 33):
I don't see anyone saying just because these two were from RIM, that all folks from RIM are guilty of something. If you're making that leap, that's on you, not the media.

With respect, that's a pretty naive assumption: thinking that many readers won't make a negative assumption between misbehaving employees and their employer when both are published as in this instance. It's not right, it's certainly unfortunate, but it's human nature. The fact that they are (were?) employed by RIM offers no substance to the story other than furnishing salacious detail.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 32):
The suspension (and possible firing) of these 2 individuals will serve as a future warning and hopeful deterent for immature RIM employees who can't hold their liquor. That's all that can be done.

So in effect, you've provided a wonderful contradiction. You (flip) roast RIM in reply 25 for allowing these two employees to fly on company business and act as company representatives as if the company somehow should have ensured in advance that they wouldn't commit misconduct. But when challenged, you (flop) concede in reply 32 that the only solution is to take action after the fact, in the hopes of preventing future occurrences.
The nice thing about a mistake is the pleasure it gives others.
 
Type-Rated
Posts: 3901
Joined: Sun Sep 19, 1999 5:18 am

RE: Long AC Diversion To YVR Due Unruly Passengers

Sun Dec 04, 2011 9:47 pm

Quoting threepoint (Reply 30):
But I wonder WHY you want their names public?

So that they can be shamed into submission. Just like the stockades of olde.
Fly North Central Airlines..The route of the Northliners!
 
AirCanada787
Posts: 255
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 2010 7:56 am

RE: Long AC Diversion To YVR Due Unruly Passengers

Tue Dec 06, 2011 6:02 am

Just to add some closure to this issue, RIM has decided to fire the two men due to their 'unprofessional behavior'.

Reported by CTV News:
http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/TopStories...cutive-blackberry-stampede-111205/
The mind, like a parachute, functions only when open.
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 13757
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

RE: Long AC Diversion To YVR Due Unruly Passengers

Tue Dec 06, 2011 1:14 pm

Quoting AirCanada787 (Reply 36):
RIM has decided to fire the two men due to their 'unprofessional behavior'.

Time for "The Hangover, Part 3"?  
Inspiration, move me brightly!
 
PanHAM
Posts: 8530
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 6:44 pm

RE: Long AC Diversion To YVR Due Unruly Passengers

Tue Dec 06, 2011 1:53 pm

Quoting type-rated (Reply 35):
So that they can be shamed into submission. Just like the stockades of olde.

Don't you have any data protection laws in USA/Canada? Don't indivudals have privacy rights?
The stockade ( I assume you mean pillory) is a medieval punishment which has been done awaqy cneturies ago.

The guys mis behaved and they pay dearly for that by losing their jobs, paying a large sum to the airline and probably will not be able to gain a similar job for the rest of their lives. I think that is a lot of punishment and that should do it.

.
powered by Eierlikör
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 13757
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

RE: Long AC Diversion To YVR Due Unruly Passengers

Tue Dec 06, 2011 2:07 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 38):
Don't you have any data protection laws in USA/Canada? Don't indivudals have privacy rights?

Arrest records are public in most US and CA jurisdictions.

That's why we know, for instance, that the head of the FAA was arrested for drunk driving last weekend.

And these two were arrested, so we know their names as well.

In fact they've plead guilty and have been given suspended sentences.

I suppose RIM waited for the guilty pleas before firing them, it gives them more justification.

I think it's wrong that arrest records are public, because arrests are not convictions.
Inspiration, move me brightly!
 
PanHAM
Posts: 8530
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 6:44 pm

RE: Long AC Diversion To YVR Due Unruly Passengers

Tue Dec 06, 2011 2:49 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 39):
think it's wrong that arrest records are public, because arrests are not convictions.

I fully agree on this and I am glad to live in a country where citizen's rights are respected. IMHO,if that had happened on a German carrier they might not even had diverted.
powered by Eierlikör
 
Kaiarahi
Posts: 1807
Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2009 6:55 pm

RE: Long AC Diversion To YVR Due Unruly Passengers

Tue Dec 06, 2011 4:12 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 40):
I am glad to live in a country where citizen's rights are respected.

Provided you can become a citizen. Ask the millions of Turks in Germany who can't become citizens about their rights.
Empty vessels make the most noise.
 
PanHAM
Posts: 8530
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 6:44 pm

RE: Long AC Diversion To YVR Due Unruly Passengers

Tue Dec 06, 2011 4:16 pm

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 41):
Provided you can become a citizen. Ask the millions of Turks in Germany who can't become citizens about their rights.

Excuse me, but except for being able to vote all "aliens" liviing or staying in Germany enjoy the full protection of the Constitution and the laws, which, of course, they also have to follow.
powered by Eierlikör
 
Kaiarahi
Posts: 1807
Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2009 6:55 pm

RE: Long AC Diversion To YVR Due Unruly Passengers

Tue Dec 06, 2011 4:58 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 42):
except for being able to vote

I'd say that's a pretty fundamental right. The U.S. fought a war of independence over taxation without representation. And how about the requirement that spouses joining a Turk living in Germany must demonstrate they can speak German, a requirement that doesn't apply to most other nationalities?

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 40):
I am glad to live in a country where citizen's rights are respected

Just because rights differ according to the laws of different countries doesn't make some countries "wrong". For example, gay couples can marry and adopt children in Canada, but not in Germany.
Empty vessels make the most noise.
 
threepoint
Posts: 1292
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2005 10:49 am

RE: Long AC Diversion To YVR Due Unruly Passengers

Tue Dec 06, 2011 6:26 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 38):
The stockade ( I assume you mean pillory) is a medieval punishment which has been done awaqy cneturies ago.

But is being brought back under the current government under new omnibus crime legislation.
The nice thing about a mistake is the pleasure it gives others.
 
Kaiarahi
Posts: 1807
Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2009 6:55 pm

RE: Long AC Diversion To YVR Due Unruly Passengers

Tue Dec 06, 2011 8:32 pm

Quoting threepoint (Reply 44):
Quoting PanHAM (Reply 38):
The stockade ( I assume you mean pillory) is a medieval punishment which has been done awaqy cneturies ago.

But is being brought back under the current government under new omnibus crime legislation.

Not quite. But I've seen criminological studies with strong evidence that public shame and embaressment are far more effective than many other sanctions.
Empty vessels make the most noise.
 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 10:25 am

RE: Long AC Diversion To YVR Due Unruly Passengers

Tue Dec 06, 2011 8:41 pm

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 26):
First, what could they have been "asked to do" on a long-haul flight already past Alaska?

My guess: shut the hell up, you're screaming in a business class cabin and disturbing everyone around you.

I don't see why that'd be hard to figure out.

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 43):
I'd say that's a pretty fundamental right.

...for a citizen.

How did this conversation get to this?

NS
 
User avatar
yowza
Posts: 4275
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 7:01 am

RE: Long AC Diversion To YVR Due Unruly Passengers

Tue Dec 06, 2011 8:43 pm

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 3):
Why is their employer important

They were on a company sanctioned and funded mission. Simple really.

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 3):
drunk and unruly Denny's employee

They are Senior officers of the company not a burger flippers. Their actions set the bar for how thousands of other RIM employees who travel for work annually behave.

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 3):
What on Earth really happened here? Nobody seems to be saying. I find it hard to understand how two guys who supposedly had Elite Top Tier status would suddenly go and screw things up so royally for themselves and everyone else for no good reason.

You would think so but I have seen this kind of thing first hand. Senior guys under a lot of pressure at work also under lock and key at home. When they get a chance to blow off steam it can go very badly wrong very quickly.

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 7):
Is that just pure speculation or do you have a source?

One of them was a Sr VP, the other a VP.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 10):
When you are travelling on business, you are a representative of your company at all times. So it is relevant.

  

Quoting threepoint (Reply 19):
I agree with your premise that we represent our employers, but cases like this, assigning 'guilt by association' is a step too far. No worthy editor who published the name of the employer failed to consider the obvious negative light in which the company will be regarded as a result of this story. The company is having a hard enough time at present, and this firm kick while on their knees is the last thing they needed. Sadly, too often people tend to judge many by the actions of a few.

One could argue that the hard times are a consequence of this kind of leadership...

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 25):
Let's hope their names are published.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/02/bu...?_r=3&nl=todaysheadlines&emc=tha26

YOWza
 
Kaiarahi
Posts: 1807
Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2009 6:55 pm

RE: Long AC Diversion To YVR Due Unruly Passengers

Tue Dec 06, 2011 8:55 pm

Quoting gigneil (Reply 46):
How did this conversation get to this?

Somebody suggesting that individual rights are better protected/respected in Germany than in North America.
Empty vessels make the most noise.
 
threepoint
Posts: 1292
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2005 10:49 am

RE: Long AC Diversion To YVR Due Unruly Passengers

Tue Dec 06, 2011 10:00 pm

Quoting YOWza (Reply 47):
They were on a company sanctioned and funded mission. Simple really.
Quoting YOWza (Reply 47):
They are Senior officers of the company not a burger flippers. Their actions set the bar for how thousands of other RIM employees who travel for work annually behave.

Again, with respect, I disagree. Fundamentally. Are all RIM employees to be viewed with the same disdain that the two fired employees deserve? When Senator Larry Craig gets busted soliciting men in a bathroom stall, are we to associate his actions with all other members of the Republican Party and consider them all philandering hypocrites? When a Southwest pilot is caught making disparaging remarks about gay flight attendants, do we roast the management and other staff for their homophobic corporate culture? How would you feel if a coworker suffered a serious lapse in judgment and all staff within your department were tainted by the stigma of their actions? Surely employees of a lesser pay scale can make their own decisions about how and how not to behave while on company business without relying on the example of management. There are certain social bring-to skills to any job.

Assuming a sound (read: proactive and progressive) corporate culture was in place in Waterloo (and we have reason to assume otherwise), sometimes the actions of an individual should be held accountable by the individual alone. I say again, there is no way we would have learned the name of the employer if these guys worked for Bill's Plumbing Shack. Even their "lofty" status as VP does not indicate a great deal of seniority within a company. Rather than being the CEO's right-hand man, a VP is often no more than middle management.

That RIM is in the news at present for all sorts of other reasons (poorly performing stocks, jailbroken products, stampedes at product launches) is in my mind the only reason the editors of various media outlets chose to include this irrelevant detail. Kick 'em when they're down. It's what we do best.
The nice thing about a mistake is the pleasure it gives others.