747400sp
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Looks Like CZ Is Using 3+5+3 In Their A380s.

Sun Dec 04, 2011 6:23 am

I was reading about CZ A380 in Airways, and it said that CZ will have a 3+5+3 arrangement, in the lower economy section, their A380, for 352 economy passengers. I have wanted to see this arrangement on an A380, and finally CZ did it. Thank you CZ


PS: Some people may say this is uncomfortable, and I would say to them, your flying on an A380, stop complaining!
 
bavair
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RE: Looks Like CZ Is Using 3+5+3 In Their A380s.

Sun Dec 04, 2011 6:29 am

Quoting 747400sp (Thread starter):
PS: Some people may say this is uncomfortable, and I would say to them, your flying on an A380, stop complaining!

Now what's that supposed to mean?

Quoting 747400sp (Thread starter):
I was reading about CZ A380 in Airways, and it said that CZ will have a 3+5+3 arrangement, in the lower economy section, their A380, for 352 economy passengers. I have wanted to see this arrangement on an A380, and finally CZ did it. Thank you CZ

It's 3-4-3. Source: CZ seat map. (csair.com)

[Edited 2011-12-03 22:30:46]
 
747400sp
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RE: Looks Like CZ Is Using 3+5+3 In Their A380s.

Sun Dec 04, 2011 7:32 am

Quoting bavair (Reply 1):
It's 3-4-3. Source: CZ seat map. (csair.com)




Crap, your right!!!! It must have been a typo in Airways magazine, and I believed it. It is a little disappointing, because I wanted to see an 3+5+3 lay out, since the early 90s, when 747s had 3+4+3, L1011/DC10s had 2+5+2 and A300 had 2+4+2. The A380 is wide enough for an 3+5+3 lay out, but it looks like airlines do not want to do it.

Quoting bavair (Reply 1):
Now what's that supposed to mean?





There is only a small amount of people, who get to enjoy a ride on an A380. So if you one of those bless people, why would you complain. Be thankful and enjoy your flight.
 
JAAlbert
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RE: Looks Like CZ Is Using 3+5+3 In Their A380s.

Sun Dec 04, 2011 7:41 am

Quoting 747400sp (Reply 2):
The A380 is wide enough for an 3+5+3 lay out, but it looks like airlines do not want to do it.

Nor do we passengers!
 
AWACSooner
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RE: Looks Like CZ Is Using 3+5+3 In Their A380s.

Sun Dec 04, 2011 7:49 am

Quoting 747400sp (Thread starter):
PS: Some people may say this is uncomfortable, and I would say to them, your flying on an A380, stop complaining!

No I'm not...just like I will not fly on any 777 that's 3-4-3 across.
 
airevents
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RE: Looks Like CZ Is Using 3+5+3 In Their A380s.

Sun Dec 04, 2011 10:31 am

3-5-3 is absolutely disgusting in my opinion. And hardly compensated by the fact that it happens on an A380. I would try to avoid it where I can...
www.airevents.com
 
aircanada014
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RE: Looks Like CZ Is Using 3+5+3 In Their A380s.

Sun Dec 04, 2011 10:53 am

I think you all forgot that the A380 cabin is wider than the B747 so it is meant to fit 3x5x3? I thought the cabin width was 23ft as to B747 20ft? Its a matter of doing 3x6x3?
 
AirbusA370
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RE: Looks Like CZ Is Using 3+5+3 In Their A380s.

Sun Dec 04, 2011 10:57 am

Even the ultra high density layout used for the evacuation test (853pax) was 3-4-3, so i do not see any chance that there will be 3-5-3 somewhere in airline service.
 
joelyboy911
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RE: Looks Like CZ Is Using 3+5+3 In Their A380s.

Sun Dec 04, 2011 11:29 am

Quoting AirbusA370 (Reply 8):

Even the ultra high density layout used for the evacuation test (853pax) was 3-4-3, so i do not see any chance that there will be 3-5-3 somewhere in airline service.

Wouldn't that have been all-economy? So 3-5-3 in Y, with other classes obviously more spacious would come in at less than the maximum allowable pax number.

The width of the lower-deck cabin is 21.6ft, compared to 20.1ft on the 747, and 19.3ft on the 777. I'd say that 3-5-3 is definitely achievable, and would still be better (except for the middle person) than a 3-4-3 77W (which I found tolerable on AF and fine on NZ).

Basically I expect 3-5-3 will happen eventually. However, right now the A380 is being marketed as a luxury liner, and because it has such good economics, such a layout has not become a necessity yet. Wait until it goes secondhand, or some second-tier carriers recieve them.
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767eng
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RE: Looks Like CZ Is Using 3+5+3 In Their A380s.

Sun Dec 04, 2011 11:40 am

I believe BA will go for the 3-4-3 on the main deck and 2-4-2 on the upper deck for the economy seats too.

Should give them around 300 econ pax if they go for the usual ratios of 1st , Biz, WT+

Can't see 3-5-3 ever working, would be a hard sell to get someone to buy the middle seat.
 
luftaom
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RE: Looks Like CZ Is Using 3+5+3 In Their A380s.

Sun Dec 04, 2011 12:01 pm

Quoting AWACSooner (Reply 4):
No I'm not...just like I will not fly on any 777 that's 3-4-3 across.

amen to that
 
LJ
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RE: Looks Like CZ Is Using 3+5+3 In Their A380s.

Sun Dec 04, 2011 12:03 pm

Quoting joelyboy911 (Reply 9):
Wait until it goes secondhand, or some second-tier carriers recieve them

I think we'll no as soon as Air Austral releases their A380 cabin lay out if 3-5-3 will ever be used.
 
qf002
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RE: Looks Like CZ Is Using 3+5+3 In Their A380s.

Sun Dec 04, 2011 12:12 pm

Quoting aircanada014 (Reply 7):

I think you all forgot that the A380 cabin is wider than the B747 so it is meant to fit 3x5x3? I thought the cabin width was 23ft as to B747 20ft? Its a matter of doing 3x6x3?

And you're forgetting that you're quoting maximum width... The width at the floor (where it actually matters, because that's the restricting factor in fitting seats in) is a matter of inches. Look at the pictures everywhere of the massive gap between headrests in Y and the sidewall and you'll see where that extra width exists.
 
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RE: Looks Like CZ Is Using 3+5+3 In Their A380s.

Sun Dec 04, 2011 1:31 pm

Quoting 747400sp (Thread starter):
Some people may say this is uncomfortable, and I would say to them, your flying on an A380, stop complaining!

So when are you planning to take a ride in the nose wheel well of an A380? There must be plenty of space in there. You won't be comfortable but you'll be flying on an A380 so stop complaining   
Never argue with idiots. They will bring you down to their level, and beat you with experience.
 
HiJazzey
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RE: Looks Like CZ Is Using 3+5+3 In Their A380s.

Sun Dec 04, 2011 1:43 pm

Quoting AWACSooner (Reply 4):
No I'm not...just like I will not fly on any 777 that's 3-4-3 across.

Hear hear!

What is this masochism?
 
planejamie
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RE: Looks Like CZ Is Using 3+5+3 In Their A380s.

Sun Dec 04, 2011 3:11 pm

Quoting AWACSooner (Reply 4):
No I'm not...just like I will not fly on any 777 that's 3-4-3 across.

Hence why I won't fly EK (at all in fact, even on the A380, I took 3 days in Heathrow over going up to Manchester to RUH on EK) or AF KL or OS in their 777s... I think it's torture to cram people into very narrow seats for long haul flights (even my hour long flight RUH-DXB with EK was so bad I never want to give them a single penny again).

Funny, the first thing I thought when I read the thread title was "Give it 3 days, and EK will announce that they're doing the same"... if you remember it was actually BA that started this 10 abreast trend off with the 777...they quickly took a U-Turn when passengers complained though.
 
Viscount724
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RE: Looks Like CZ Is Using 3+5+3 In Their A380s.

Sun Dec 04, 2011 3:43 pm

Quoting LJ (Reply 12):
Quoting joelyboy911 (Reply 9):
Wait until it goes secondhand, or some second-tier carriers recieve them

I think we'll know as soon as Air Austral releases their A380 cabin lay out if 3-5-3 will ever be used.

It will be 3-4-3. The maximum certificated seating on the A380 on which the evacuation tests were based used 3-4-3 seating on the lower deck. Installing more seats would serve no purpose on a high-density carrier like Air Austral since they couldn't legally be sold.
 
Western727
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RE: Looks Like CZ Is Using 3+5+3 In Their A380s.

Sun Dec 04, 2011 3:53 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 17):
It will be 3-4-3. The maximum certificated seating on the A380 on which the evacuation tests were based used 3-4-3 seating on the lower deck. Installing more seats would serve no purpose on a high-density carrier like Air Austral since they couldn't legally be sold.

Why the 3-4-3 limit? The 77W's cabin, at 2.3 feet narrower, can legally do 3-4-3. At 17-18" width per average Y seat, there's more than enough width to go 3-5-3 on the 380. Is it the number of lower-deck exits that legally limits this?
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gigneil
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RE: Looks Like CZ Is Using 3+5+3 In Their A380s.

Sun Dec 04, 2011 4:02 pm

It's unattractive, but hardly the end of the world.

NS
 
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RE: Looks Like CZ Is Using 3+5+3 In Their A380s.

Sun Dec 04, 2011 4:19 pm

Quoting Western727 (Reply 19):
Why the 3-4-3 limit? The 77W's cabin, at 2.3 feet narrower, can legally do 3-4-3. At 17-18" width per average Y seat, there's more than enough width to go 3-5-3 on the 380. Is it the number of lower-deck exits that legally limits this?

It's the time required to evacuate the aircraft in 90 seconds that determines the maximum certificated seating, which on the A380 is 538 on the main deck and 315 on the upper deck for a total of 853.
 
777-200X
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RE: Looks Like CZ Is Using 3+5+3 In Their A380s.

Sun Dec 04, 2011 4:36 pm

I find it funny how the airlines love to position the reason they configure the 777 in the 3-3-3 arrangement is for passenger comfort, and most of people actually buy into that argument. The main reason most airlines configured their 777 in a 3-3-3 configuration or switched from 2-5-2 configuration on a 777, i.e., UA and DL is due to the fact that the IFE system box can only support a max of 4 seats in a group, so to configure an aircraft in the 2-5-2 configuration they will need 4 boxes to support the same number of sets as oppose to the 3-3-3 configuration which only needs 3 boxes. Given the fuel is at record high prices airlines are chose not to carry around a few hundred pounds of additional IFE equipments to save fuel. I personally think sitting in a 3-3-3 configured window seat is just as bad, if not worse then getting trapped in the center seat of a 2-5-2 configured 777. At least on a 2-5-2 configured 777 you have two ways/options of getting out to the aisle if got stuck in the middle of the 5 seats. In a 3-3-3 configured window seat you have only one way to get out and if the people are sleeping, which is often the case during long haul flight, then you will need to wake up two people as oppose to one person on a 2-5-2. Not sure how that supports the passenger comfort argument.

[Edited 2011-12-04 08:38:58]
 
Western727
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RE: Looks Like CZ Is Using 3+5+3 In Their A380s.

Sun Dec 04, 2011 4:57 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 22):
It's the time required to evacuate the aircraft in 90 seconds that determines the maximum certificated seating, which on the A380 is 538 on the main deck and 315 on the upper deck for a total of 853.

Thanks, Viscount724--that makes sense. I wonder, then, if an airline could still do 3-5-3 in Y while having a mixed config...say perhaps 2-3-2 J and 3-5-3 Y on the lower deck. In this theoretical config, the lower-deck 538-pax limit that you mention could still be satisfied. Thoughts?
Jack @ AUS
 
liftsifter
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RE: Looks Like CZ Is Using 3+5+3 In Their A380s.

Sun Dec 04, 2011 5:44 pm

I don't think it's legal to have that many people on that plane.. LOL

I would never fly a 3-5-3 A380. With a layout like that they might as well make a thrid isle down the middle for faster service, eh?
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Halophila
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RE: Looks Like CZ Is Using 3+5+3 In Their A380s.

Sun Dec 04, 2011 6:40 pm

I'm about 80cm from shoulder to shoulder (think linebacker). And I can't afford J or F. There is no way you'd get me to fly any carrier with 3-4-3 on a 777 - it would be impolite to fellow passengers (to extend into their space). Similarly I do not fly on airlines that do not let me choose my seat in advance (a la VA - great service, but QF lets you choose your seats on the cheapest seats). But as someone said, it's hardly the end of the world.
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Zkpilot
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RE: Looks Like CZ Is Using 3+5+3 In Their A380s.

Sun Dec 04, 2011 7:13 pm

Quoting 777-200X (Reply 21):

How is sitting in a window 3-3-3 configured 777 any different from a window on an A380/747/737/A320 etc?
Simple fact is that apart from the unlikely chance that a 777 will have 50 empty seats on a regular basis 2-5-2 is not as comfortable or as useful for airlines as 3-3-3. If there was an airline that did this then they might do well to remove a row and go 2-4-2. I could not think of anything worse than being in the middle of 5! Also 3-3-3 is more efficient for overhead locker space (as pax like to have their own bags above them thus speeding up boarding slightly.
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AirbusA370
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RE: Looks Like CZ Is Using 3+5+3 In Their A380s.

Sun Dec 04, 2011 7:28 pm

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 25):
How is sitting in a window 3-3-3 configured 777 any different from a window on an A380

Common wisdom on a.net is, that nobody can fill the A380, so you will probably have always free seats next to you  
 
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Francoflier
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RE: Looks Like CZ Is Using 3+5+3 In Their A380s.

Sun Dec 04, 2011 7:31 pm

Talking of

Quoting 747400sp (Thread starter):
I have wanted to see this arrangement on an A380, and finally CZ did it. Thank you CZ

Sucker for punishment or masochistic tendencies?  

Talking of 3-5-3 on the A380, would such configuration require a re-certification (another evacuation test?).
I'm guessing an additional aisle would hinder pax movement a little more, even if they configured it with the same amount of pax (853)...

Was that required for the 3-4-3 config on the 777?

I'd also be curious to see how many pax would fit in a full economy 3-5-3 A380.
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UALWN
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RE: Looks Like CZ Is Using 3+5+3 In Their A380s.

Sun Dec 04, 2011 7:40 pm

Since it's clear that CZ's A380s will actually be 3-4-3, could the mods modify the title of the thread? Or, even better, lock it? Please?
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babybus
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RE: Looks Like CZ Is Using 3+5+3 In Their A380s.

Sun Dec 04, 2011 11:46 pm

If I remember correctly SV fly their 777 in 2/5/2 format.

Because their legroom is very generous in Y, sitting in the middle seat of the middle section doesn't feel too bad.

3/5/3 on an A380 maybe wouldn't be too bad due to the headroom and the standing areas. It might be good too when you get a row to yourself. Lots of room to lie down in. I think I'm just forcing myself to be positive. 3/5/3 probably isn't a good idea on any current aircraft.
and with that..cabin crew, seats for landing please.
 
N1120A
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RE: Looks Like CZ Is Using 3+5+3 In Their A380s.

Mon Dec 05, 2011 12:15 am

Quoting 747400sp (Thread starter):
Some people may say this is uncomfortable, and I would say to them, your flying on an A380, stop complaining!

Why? I'd complain all day.

Quoting joelyboy911 (Reply 9):
Wouldn't that have been all-economy? So 3-5-3 in Y, with other classes obviously more spacious would come in at less than the maximum allowable pax number.

I doubt they have passed evacuation tests with that configuration.

Quoting AWACSooner (Reply 4):
No I'm not...just like I will not fly on any 777 that's 3-4-3 across.

I won't even fly one 3-3-3 if I can avoid it.

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 25):
Simple fact is that apart from the unlikely chance that a 777 will have 50 empty seats on a regular basis 2-5-2 is not as comfortable or as useful for airlines as 3-3-3.

Except, of course, that groups of 4 travel together all the time, and most of those groups are families with children. With 2-5-2, you keep them together, and also make it more comfortable for those who sit along the sides.
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something
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RE: Looks Like CZ Is Using 3+5+3 In Their A380s.

Mon Dec 05, 2011 12:18 am

You know it's a rainy Sunday in most parts of the world, when a thread opened under a wrong premise gets 30+ replies.  
..sick of it. -K. Pilkington.
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: Looks Like CZ Is Using 3+5+3 In Their A380s.

Mon Dec 05, 2011 12:23 am

Quoting aircanada014 (Reply 7):
I think you all forgot that the A380 cabin is wider than the B747 so it is meant to fit 3x5x3? I thought the cabin width was 23ft as to B747 20ft? Its a matter of doing 3x6x3?

Yes, the main deck of the A-380 is about 1.5' wider than the B-747 (interior measurement). The current economy seats (most airlines) on the A-380 are 21" wide in a 3-4-3. To go to a 3-5-3 seating and still maintane two 20" aisles (needed for the service carts and evacuation), the new seats would be less than 17" wide (actually just 16.8" wide). This configeration add some 35 seats to the 'typical' 3-class A-380 airline configueration, going from 555 pax to 590 pax (economy class increases from 437 to 472, 96 business class seats and 22 first class seats) and also requiring 1 or 2 more LD-2s for baggage. I counted and then added the extra seats the thread starter wanted by just counting the 10 seat economy rows on both decks. If you only count the main deck and not the upper deck 10 seat economy rows, then there are only 22 more seats.

See pages 2-4-0, page #1 to 2-4-1, page #3;

http://www.airbus.com/fileadmin/medi...ata/AC/Airbus-AC-A380-20111101.pdf
 
EL-AL
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RE: Looks Like CZ Is Using 3+5+3 In Their A380s.

Mon Dec 05, 2011 12:45 am

Transaro is operating it's B743s with 496 pax configuration, and with their plans to have more then 700 on the A380 they ordered, I'll put my money that if any airline will operate the A380 with 11 seats in row on main deck Y, transaero will be the one.

By the way, they also have 2-5-2 configuration on their 777s.
every day is a good day to fly
 
joelyboy911
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RE: Looks Like CZ Is Using 3+5+3 In Their A380s.

Mon Dec 05, 2011 1:34 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 30):
I doubt they have passed evacuation tests with that configuration.

As I understand it, the law states that nobody is allowed to be more than 2 seats from an aisle. So 3-5-3 is the max, essentially. I don't see why 3-5-3 would affect their evacuation, when all that has to happen is everyone onboard disembarking in a safe amount of time.

There is a maximum certifiable passenger number, and some rules about seating layout, otherwise it's not restricted. They would be free to install 3-5-3 so long as they don't exceed the lower-deck maximum passenger number.

Ok, it hasn't been tested specifically, but I don't think they are required to do so. So long as the aircraft can safely disembark the number of people in the required time, and the layout meets the other regulatory requirements they should be fine.

The space would still be less constricted than a 9-abreast A330, which is allowable currently, so I don't see a safety issue in it.
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Cipango
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RE: Looks Like CZ Is Using 3+5+3 In Their A380s.

Mon Dec 05, 2011 1:39 am

Quoting 767eng (Reply 10):
Can't see 3-5-3 ever working, would be a hard sell to get someone to buy the middle seat.

To be honest, not many people take much notice of their seat number, until of course they're on the plane. The middle seat would probably be filled an unfortunate, unsuspecting passenger.
Let's fly! Unless it's on a CRJ 200, then I'll stay down here.
 
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Zkpilot
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RE: Looks Like CZ Is Using 3+5+3 In Their A380s.

Mon Dec 05, 2011 1:42 am

Quoting AirbusA370 (Reply 26):
Common wisdom on a.net is, that nobody can fill the A380, so you will probably have always free seats next to you

QF A380s flying on the LHR route of generally been 95%+ full most of the time.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 30):
Except, of course, that groups of 4 travel together all the time, and most of those groups are families with children. With 2-5-2, you keep them together, and also make it more comfortable for those who sit along the sides.

or you have the kids by the window and the middle seat, mum or dad in the aisle and mum or dad across the aisle. This way the kids can't escape to run around the plane like crazy, one parent (in turns) gets some relaxation being an aisle space away from them whilst the other keeps an eye on the little kids.
The only segment where this doesn't work of course is young couples who want to get a bit frisky together... something which doesn't really need encouraging on a plane!
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RamblinMan
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RE: Looks Like CZ Is Using 3+5+3 In Their A380s.

Mon Dec 05, 2011 2:03 am

Quoting 747400sp (Thread starter):
I have wanted to see this arrangement on an A380

Good God WHY? I can only think of two options...a.) you're masochistic, or b.) you exclusively fly J or F and you're sadistic.

Quoting something (Reply 31):
You know it's a rainy Sunday in most parts of the world, when a thread opened under a wrong premise gets 30+ replies.

I think the activity here is more a result of the sentiment of some users here who claim they actually want such an arrangement, or at the very least claim it "wouldn't be so bad." There's a REASON that most carriers do 3-3-3 instead of 2-5-2 on the 777... a row of 5 sucks no matter what.
 
747400sp
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RE: Looks Like CZ Is Using 3+5+3 In Their A380s.

Mon Dec 05, 2011 2:25 am

Wow! This is a nice amount of replies, and I really thank you for your replies.


I know my thinking is very, very crazy, but I just want to see if 3+5+3 could be done.
 
aviateur
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RE: Looks Like CZ Is Using 3+5+3 In Their A380s.

Mon Dec 05, 2011 2:35 am

Quoting 747400sp (Thread starter):
PS: Some people may say this is uncomfortable, and I would say to them, your flying on an A380, stop complaining!

Except that the average passenger could not care less -- or even has any idea -- what type of aircraft he or she is flying on.


Even I , a life-long airplane geek, would get pretty bored and uncomfortable in a middle seat after a while!


PS
Patrick Smith is an airline pilot, air travel columnist and author

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