marcouscg
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United And The New 747-8

Tue Dec 06, 2011 1:36 am

I was wondering since United is going to now get the 787 after they have observed ANA and get more Information to see if it really is efficient as advertised through Boeing.Questions is if they would reconsider the new 747-800 to substitute the 747-400 versions so that they somewhat renew their fleet and maybe have a better chance in these economical times and through out the merge now with CO they could even make a better range in the list of Airlines?
 
roseflyer
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United And The New 747-8

Tue Dec 06, 2011 1:51 am

There's a thread on UA purchasing the A380 which is a couple days old and the same arguments apply to the 747-8. UA management has said they want smaller aircraft. The 747-400 is already too much aircraft on many of their routes. I don't see the 747-8 as likely.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
rjm777ual
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United And The New 747-8

Tue Dec 06, 2011 2:34 am

Doubtful. UA is replacing their current 744's with A350 XWB's, so this is unlikely.
Greetings from Dulles!
 
dennys
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United And The New 747-8

Tue Dec 06, 2011 3:08 am

I cann't see how can the A350 can be compared to a 744.
however the 747-8i would be good news for an USA to support their new VLA , the 747-8i .
 
Carpethead
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United And The New 747-8

Tue Dec 06, 2011 3:30 am

I am not sure what revelance ANA operating the 787 has on UA's decision on the 748.
It's better to ask the other Star partner on the oppossite side of the ocean to see the the performance when it is in service.
 
rjm777ual
Posts: 237
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United And The New 747-8

Tue Dec 06, 2011 3:33 am

UA is going to replace their 744's with A350 XWB's. It says on the UA website, AND has been discussed before.
Greetings from Dulles!
 
dennys
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United And The New 747-8

Tue Dec 06, 2011 3:50 am

Well , even if discussed before , should the US Carrier support their home made new 747-8i , this would sound like "suitable" or more understandable .
 
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seabosdca
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United And The New 747-8

Tue Dec 06, 2011 4:05 am

Quoting dennys (Reply 3):
I cann't see how can the A350 can be compared to a 744.

Put in the same premium cabin, and many fewer economy seats, and it's a very, VERY nice comparison.

Quoting dennys (Reply 6):
should the US Carrier support their home made new 747-8i

A US carrier or any other carrier has an obligation to its shareholders to buy whatever aircraft will make it the most money, homemade or not.
 
747400sp
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RE: United And The New 747-8

Tue Dec 06, 2011 6:25 am

Quoting dennys (Reply 3):
I cann't see how can the A350 can be compared to a 744.
however the 747-8i would be good news for an USA to support their new VLA , the 747-8i .




I agree completely, but if UA has to down size, I think an A350 is a better choice than a 77W. It has a better cruising speed ( same as a 744) and a more comfortable cabin. Hey, I would love to see an A380 or a 747-8I in UA livery, but if they have to down size, they picked a good plane to do it with.
 
wdleiser
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RE: United And The New 747-8

Tue Dec 06, 2011 12:58 pm

Quoting dennys (Reply 6):

This is kind of like saying buy US cars and trucks... you know the ones now made in Canada and Mexico.... and screw those foreign made vehicles... you know the ones that are actually made in Alabama, Georgia, and South Carolina etc...

Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love the 747 and I am so happy that LH is getting the 748. I also really like the A380, A340, A330, 767, 757 and 777.

Airplanes are globally made now with parts from all over. It is now really just final assembly and corporate headquarters that dictates Boeing being American made and Airbus being European made...

[Edited 2011-12-06 04:59:58]
 
AAplat4life
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RE: United And The New 747-8

Tue Dec 06, 2011 1:18 pm

I can actually see United reconsidering its A350 goals, even if it keeps its order. It ordered the A350 before the merger when its financial condition was still a bit weak and Airbus was hungry for launch orders. It is much stronger now and has different management. Just like AA reconsidered its all Boeing fleet, things change.

With its impressive route structure and several hubs providing more flights from several different U.S. cities, this undermines the need for the VLA like the 380 and 747. The risk with the 380 at this point for UA would be filling the capacity throughout a year rather than in just peak months and airport handling. The 747-8i might be able to address these factors, since it is smaller and should fit at airports that currently have 747 service. For example, I don't see how UA could fit the A380 at T1 at ORD or at its current gates at SFO or LAX. Other terminals at those airports might work, but not the ones that UA currently uses.

Still, I think that the A359 is now going to be too small for United in terms of a 744 replacement. I would, therefore, expect it to reconsider a 77W order, and think that this would happen before it orders either the 748 or A380. I will admit that I think the 748 is probably one of the most stunning aircrafts ever built, but so far I have not been hearing anything supporting impressive operating cost improvements compare to the A380. So it seems hard to make the case here for either the A380 or 747-8 at United.
 
747400sp
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RE: United And The New 747-8

Tue Dec 06, 2011 1:29 pm

Quoting wdleiser (Reply 9):
Quoting dennys (Reply 6):


This is kind of like saying buy US cars and trucks... you know the ones now made in Canada and Mexico.... and screw those foreign made vehicles... you know the ones that are actually made in Alabama, Georgia, and South Carolina etc...

Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love the 747 and I am so happy that LH is getting the 748. I also really like the A380, A340, A330, 767, 757 and 777.

Airplanes are globally made now with parts from all over. It is now really just final assembly and corporate headquarters that dictates Boeing being American made and Airbus being European made...

[Edited 2011-12-06 04:59:58]




Also, if you think about it, France has a major part in Airbus, but Air France do not just order Airbus, but they give Boeing a good amount of support also.

I was born and rise in the United States, and I am proud to be an American, but I would be telling a lie, if said that I only support Boeing products. I love both A380s and 747s, I think an A330 is much better a/c than 767.
 
VgnAtl747
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RE: United And The New 747-8

Tue Dec 06, 2011 1:34 pm

Quoting dennys (Reply 6):

Well , even if discussed before , should the US Carrier support their home made new 747-8i , this would sound like "suitable" or more understandable .

No. As much as I'd like to see it, the new UA needs the right aircraft, with the right economics, to meet the right demand, on the right route. Simply buying Boeing because they're a US based carrier just isn't smart. As a CO (errr... now UA) elite, I want to see the airline make the right decisions to keep them financially viable and growing. If that means more Airbus because they make better sense on certain routes, then so be it.

The days of "the gentlemen's agreements" are over. Airlines need to do what's smart, and what makes sense for them, not buy a specific manufacturer for nostalgic purposes.
Work Hard. Fly Right. Continental Airlines
 
Bongodog1964
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RE: United And The New 747-8

Tue Dec 06, 2011 1:36 pm

Quoting AAplat4life (Reply 10):
I can actually see United reconsidering its A350 goals, even if it keeps its order. It ordered the A350 before the merger when its financial condition was still a bit weak and Airbus was hungry for launch orders. It is much stronger now and has different management. Just like AA reconsidered its all Boeing fleet, things change.

Now that UA have ordeered the A350, they are likely to either have to take delivery, or roll over their order into a commitment for another Airbus model to the same value.
 
airproxx
Posts: 406
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RE: United And The New 747-8

Tue Dec 06, 2011 3:14 pm

Quoting rjm777ual (Reply 5):
UA is going to replace their 744's with A350 XWB's.
Quoting dennys (Reply 3):
I cann't see how can the A350 can be compared to a 744.

Neither do I.

The 744 has been a long time workhorse, with everything that makes Boeing so popular to Major Carriers: Range, Reliability and Payload.
I highly doubt an A350 can compete these 3 ways at the same time. Efficiency alone doesn't make a good plane.
If UA would have replaced its 744 fleet with something close, not similar, they would have considered the 77W directly, considering its existing fleet of 772ERs.
I still believe the 747-8i has a great future on some UA routes, such as Australia and Asia...
If you can meet with triumph and disaster, and treat those two impostors just the same
 
blueman87
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RE: United And The New 747-8

Tue Dec 06, 2011 3:24 pm

is there a link to back this up or is this a Rumor????
B6 T5 JFK DL T2/3 JFK
 
gigneil
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RE: United And The New 747-8

Tue Dec 06, 2011 3:31 pm

There is nothing to back up... and not even a rumor.

The 747-8 is just not a competitive plane, and I cannot see United buying any. If BA couldn't be sold, then I doubt United can.

Also I want to point out that Continental ordered 787s like 8 years ago. If someone waited to see how it worked with ANA, they'd be taking delivery of their order in 2020.

NS
 
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kgaiflyer
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RE: United And The New 747-8

Tue Dec 06, 2011 3:35 pm

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 7):
Put in the same premium cabin, and many fewer economy seats, and it's a very, VERY nice comparison.

In days gone by -- that was Northwest Airlines's logic for selecting the A332 for some of their trans-Pacific routes -- to *cut* capacity by reducing seats and to elevate fares accordingly.
 
DogsOfWar
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RE: United And The New 747-8

Tue Dec 06, 2011 3:51 pm

i would rather see the 747-8 vs the a380 or any other airbus widebody.
 
airproxx
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RE: United And The New 747-8

Tue Dec 06, 2011 4:06 pm

Quoting DogsOfWar (Reply 18):
i would rather see the 747-8 vs the a380 or any other airbus widebody.

Same here  
If you can meet with triumph and disaster, and treat those two impostors just the same
 
airproxx
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RE: United And The New 747-8

Tue Dec 06, 2011 4:13 pm

Quoting gigneil (Reply 16):

The 747-8 is just not a competitive plane

Say that to Lufthansa!
It is, unfortunately for you, but very fortunately for us, not true, and at least, not as simple as you said.
The 747 has proved for many decades now its reliability, no doubt the new born -8 will stay on the same tracks. The new designs have a lot to demonstrate compared to this monument. That can be one, between many, point that airlines willing to purchase LH aircrafts will take into account.
On a side note, the A380, proportionally offers far less payload than a B744, and obviously far far more than a -8i. Ask about efficiency... The new 74' has still a word to say.
If you can meet with triumph and disaster, and treat those two impostors just the same
 
captainstefan
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RE: United And The New 747-8

Tue Dec 06, 2011 5:15 pm

Quoting 747400sp (Reply 8):
I agree completely, but if UA has to down size, I think an A350 is a better choice than a 77W. It has a better cruising speed ( same as a 744) and a more comfortable cabin.

Just keep in mind that it hasn't even flown yet. The 787 had trouble keeping promises of performance, and it would be no surprise for Airbus to encounter similar problems.
Long Live the Tulip!
 
EWRandMDW
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RE: United And The New 747-8

Tue Dec 06, 2011 5:49 pm

Quoting 747400sp (Reply 8):
I agree completely, but if UA has to down size, I think an A350 is a better choice than a 77W. It has a better cruising speed ( same as a 744) and a more comfortable cabin.

Pardon me, but to the best of my knowledge, there is no A350 in existence aside from schematics and an incomplete shell, so I don't see how a true comparison is possible! On paper (or a computer screen) anything can be made to appear better!
 
4holer
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RE: United And The New 747-8

Tue Dec 06, 2011 6:27 pm

United has a 744 on the way to Marana as we speak...
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/U...5/history/20111206/1730Z/KSFO/KMZJ

Just sayin.
Ghosts appear and fade away.....................
 
rjm777ual
Posts: 237
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RE: United And The New 747-8

Tue Dec 06, 2011 7:42 pm

The way i see it, The 747-8 is mainly a cargo airplane; more cargo airlines have ordered it than passengers.
Greetings from Dulles!
 
gigneil
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RE: United And The New 747-8

Tue Dec 06, 2011 7:55 pm

Quoting airproxx (Reply 20):
Say that to Lufthansa!

Every dog has its day. And still, the plane has practically no sales.

I keep on top of these things. I read what has been posted by people far smarter than me, and what comes from decisions like BA.

I reiterate - not competitive.

Quoting airproxx (Reply 20):
On a side note, the A380, proportionally offers far less payload than a B744, and obviously far far more than a -8i.

What?

NS
 
United727
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RE: United And The New 747-8

Tue Dec 06, 2011 9:15 pm

Ok, so enough of the maybe, possibly, could be, this is what they're doing posts.... I guess one would ask the million dollar question then, Is United going to be plagued with an long, drawn out, overly extended wait for their new A350's, if that is indeed their plane of choice? Is the A350 program going to have similar issues as the infamous B787 program???? Interested minds would like some speculation on this topic within the topic....
 
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jetjack74
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RE: United And The New 747-8

Tue Dec 06, 2011 9:18 pm

Quoting 747400sp (Reply 8):
It has a better cruising speed ( same as a 744) and a more comfortable cabin.

How do you know? The aircraft hasn't even been assembled yet.
Made from jets!
 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 10:25 am

RE: United And The New 747-8

Tue Dec 06, 2011 9:19 pm

No, they DON'T want that.

Nobody here can know anything about the delivery of the A350. As of right now, its very near on schedule and nobody has any reason to believe otherwise.

Also, they ORDERED those planes. They haven't said a WORD about not wanting them, and several words about being excited to receive them.

That is that. We need to get control over the rampant posting of utter nonsense that's taken as fact.

NS
 
qfa787380
Posts: 178
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RE: United And The New 747-8

Tue Dec 06, 2011 9:20 pm

Quoting gigneil (Reply 25):
I keep on top of these things. I read what has been posted by people far smarter than me, and what comes from decisions like BA.

I reiterate - not competitive.

Well glad to know we can just refer to you for this information. Heck the plane hasn't entered revenue service yet and you have called it uncompetitive. Maybe you should chat to LH or maybe you're not as far on top of these things as you apparently think you are.
 
gigneil
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RE: United And The New 747-8

Tue Dec 06, 2011 9:28 pm

Why don't you bother to do research before talking back?

The 747-8 has lost every competitive contest except Lufthansa. Hence, not. competitive. aircraft.

I understand your preference is to just post whatever Boeing tells you to. I get that. So just keep doing it.

NS
 
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PA110
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RE: United And The New 747-8

Tue Dec 06, 2011 11:03 pm

Quoting Blueman87 (Reply 15):
is there a link to back this up or is this a Rumor????

Nope, just wishful thinking by fanboys. I have to admit, I'm a bit surprised that UA hadn't swapped a few 744s for 77Ws, however, I guess they either didn't have the cash, the delivery slots (or both), or far more liklely, there are factors the decision makers are privy to that we aren't - but then again, that won't stop the rampant speculation, will it?  
It's been swell, but the swelling has gone down.
 
Cerecl
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RE: United And The New 747-8

Tue Dec 06, 2011 11:13 pm

Quoting AAplat4life (Reply 10):
I can actually see United reconsidering its A350 goals, even if it keeps its order.

I don' t get the consistent questioning of this order. Is it so hard to envision UA adopting a two pronged approach to its 744 replacement? Thinner routes can be operated by A359 (or A350-1000 if they want to, I am sure the flexibility will be there) while trunk routes may be more suitable for A380 or 748i. Plus, United's 772 is not getting any younger, and A359 is the ideal replacement.

Quoting AAplat4life (Reply 10):
Airbus was hungry for launch orders

What? UA ordered A350 in 2010, HA and US have already order the aircraft and its order number was approaching 500, how was that a launch order?

[Edited 2011-12-06 15:51:46]

[Edited 2011-12-06 15:52:20]
 
airproxx
Posts: 406
Joined: Sat Jun 21, 2008 7:07 pm

RE: United And The New 747-8

Tue Dec 06, 2011 11:15 pm

Quoting gigneil (Reply 25):
Every dog has its day. And still, the plane has practically no sales.

Indeed, but I keep in mind the difficult start of the 777 in its early days, and the commercial success of today. Let the 747-8i make its way. I'm sure this airplane has an honnorable future.

Quoting gigneil (Reply 25):


What?

Well, a simple comparison, between the payload offered by a 77W OR a 744 and an A380 on a, say, CDG-NRT route.
Once the 77W/744 filled with pax+their standard and regular baggage load, the airplane still offers room for an extra payload of cargo and/or rush baggage (about 20tons)
Compared to an A380, once the plane filled with pax (538 version @ AF), no more room is left for any extra payload. Due to a very heavy empty weight, designed so (only a 5tons left figure)
Conclusion (and it's not mine!) @ AF: Once the A380 put on a CDG-NRT route, you need an extra plane on the route (a B744F) to carry the freight left behind by the Airbus whale. Discussing that with a LH friend, I discovered AF is not the only one having trouble in this case. And CDG-NRT is NOT the only route concerned.
This is not a Myth, Boeing airplanes are designed so as to carry a much heavier payload than any Airbus plane.
And I don't think the 747-8i is designed differently.
I now how much airlines are careful to payload figures, and the 747-8i (same as the 747-8F) is a new reference here.

Dave
If you can meet with triumph and disaster, and treat those two impostors just the same
 
qfa787380
Posts: 178
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2010 10:49 pm

RE: United And The New 747-8

Tue Dec 06, 2011 11:41 pm

Quoting gigneil (Reply 30):
Why don't you bother to do research before talking back?

The 747-8 has lost every competitive contest except Lufthansa. Hence, not. competitive. aircraft.

I understand your preference is to just post whatever Boeing tells you to. I get that. So just keep doing it.

Wow, your arrogance is staggering and how you have a RR of 92 absolutely escapes me. FYI, I am not a fan of VLAs in general and believe that UA will not order the 748I or 380. You have no knowledge of why the 748I lost some competitions. It could be as simple as a finance issue. You have no knowledge of ongoing campaigns. You claim to be all over it. All over what??? The 380 has been on offer for a lot longer than the 748I and a lot of ailrines had already selected it. The VLA market is small anyway and I suspect Boeing will do just fine with the 748F and the 748I will get a few orders but never be a stellar seller.
 
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kgaiflyer
Posts: 2608
Joined: Sat Jul 19, 2008 3:22 am

RE: United And The New 747-8

Tue Dec 06, 2011 11:55 pm

Quoting qfa787380 (Reply 34):
how you have a RR of 92 absolutely escapes me.

In general, those inside the aviation industry (ignore the profiles -- many are dummied) have high ratings as a result of taking it in the neck from customers (or management   ) every day.

Also in general, frequent flyers (regardless of mileage) tend to have lower ratings (and the most vainglorious profiles) since they don't always have first hand knowledge and treat rumor and second-hand information like it was fact.

And in spite of what you might think, it seems to work.   
 
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kgaiflyer
Posts: 2608
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RE: United And The New 747-8

Wed Dec 07, 2011 12:00 am

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 35):
And in spite of what you might think, it seems to work.

Then there are a few of us who get testy when we're off our meds.  
 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 10:25 am

RE: United And The New 747-8

Wed Dec 07, 2011 2:02 am

Quoting jetjack74 (Reply 27):
How do you know? The aircraft hasn't even been assembled yet.

You know the cruising speed of an aircraft when you draw it on paper. Otherwise there'd be no way to sell it in advance.

Quoting qfa787380 (Reply 34):
Wow, your arrogance is staggering and how you have a RR of 92 absolutely escapes me.

Because I don't follow the leader. You have no idea what I do or do not know or who I do or do not know.

I don't enjoy the fanboy uninformed nonsense. It has run off 90% of the good posters here. And I've been very arrogant in response to it because it hurts the site, and it hurts humanity as a whole to allow unchecked idiocy in the world.

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 36):
Then there are a few of us who get testy when we're off our meds.  

That too. I'm pretty testy today because I get sick of reading uninformed nonsense.

NS
 
qfa787380
Posts: 178
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2010 10:49 pm

RE: United And The New 747-8

Wed Dec 07, 2011 2:25 am

Quoting gigneil (Reply 37):
Because I don't follow the leader. You have no idea what I do or do not know or who I do or do not know.

I don't enjoy the fanboy uninformed nonsense. It has run off 90% of the good posters here. And I've been very arrogant in response to it because it hurts the site, and it hurts humanity as a whole to allow unchecked idiocy in the world.

But you have been on this site for a long time and honestly you offer very little in the way of new knowledge(not that I do either). I just can't fathom how someone with such shallow posting quality(high quantity) can get such a high RR. It staggers me actually. It is patently obvious you are an enthusiast only and have no real knowledge of the industry, even though you often "pretend" that you do. And what sort of absolute garbage is " it hurts humanity as a whole to allow unchecked idiocy in the world"??? What is that. Suddenly, anyone portrayed as a fanboy is ranked as "unchecked idiocy".
Deal with it and ignore it if you don't like it.
 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 10:25 am

RE: United And The New 747-8

Wed Dec 07, 2011 2:36 am

Quoting qfa787380 (Reply 38):
It is patently obvious you are an enthusiast only and have no real knowledge of the industry,

You're right. I know nothing.

NS
 
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kgaiflyer
Posts: 2608
Joined: Sat Jul 19, 2008 3:22 am

RE: United And The New 747-8

Wed Dec 07, 2011 5:08 am

Quoting qfa787380 (Reply 34):
Wow, your arrogance is staggering and how you have a RR of 92 absolutely escapes me
Quoting gigneil (Reply 37):
You have no idea what I do or do not know or who I do or do not know. I don't enjoy the fanboy uninformed nonsense. It has run off 90% of the good posters here. And I've been very arrogant in response to it because it hurts the site, and it hurts humanity as a whole to allow unchecked idiocy in the world.

Guys,

As the Mods are always telling me, "Debate the topic and not the member."

We need to get back on topic.
-----------------------------------------------------

Even if UA ordered the 748, what is the earliest they could take delivery?

2016?
 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 10:25 am

RE: United And The New 747-8

Wed Dec 07, 2011 5:32 am

I'd imagine pretty immediately...

NS

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