winGl3t
Topic Author
Posts: 168
Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2011 3:52 pm

Why No CX In ZRH?

Sun Dec 11, 2011 4:58 pm

Hello All,

This is my first post here. After so many years reading A.net's forums and enjoying the pictures I finally decided to join!!

I would like to debut asking: Why is Cathay Pacific not flying to Zurich?

TG, SQ and LX seems very happy with the lack of CX's presence on this market. Off course Star Alliance plays a role there, but for me this route is a non-brainer, as it would cater for O&D between two of the World's wealthiest areas and Cathay can offers many connections to Mainland China, and all of Asia/Pacific region from it fortress hub in HKG.

I may answer my own question, but would lack of aircraft play a major role on their decision?

[Edited 2011-12-11 08:59:45]
 
United Airline
Posts: 8782
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:24 pm

RE: Why No CX In ZRH?

Sun Dec 11, 2011 5:02 pm

They pulled out in 2001 if I remember correctly? Why don't they return?
 
CX Flyboy
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RE: Why No CX In ZRH?

Sun Dec 11, 2011 5:24 pm

There are plenty of routes where CX could be making money where they are not currently flying. Whenever we grow the numbers of aircrew, cabin crew and have spare aircraft, it is a matter of looking at the list of places where these spare resources can be applied. The resources are of course applied where most money can be made with that aircraft and often that is bolstering routes that we currently fly on. It has always been CX's policy to become very strong on their current routes instead of expanding into lots of new markets. New destinations are launched slowly, even though there is potential to make a profit because resources are applied to current routes first.

ZRH has been on the radar for a number of years along with places like Manchester, Munich, South America etc... If more planes come, new destinations may be launched but there are a few of our current routes where additional capacity can be applied. North America is for CX a growth area at the moment with a lot of premium traffic. Europe at the moment is quite stable with little expected growth in capacity for CX.
 
winGl3t
Topic Author
Posts: 168
Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2011 3:52 pm

RE: Why No CX In ZRH?

Sun Dec 11, 2011 6:29 pm

Quoting United Airline (Reply 1):

Yes, last flight was in April´01 and it was flown with a beautiful A343!

Quoting CX Flyboy (Reply 2):

Thanks CX Flyboy.
It makes perfect sense to get strong on a route it already operates instead of flying multiples destinations on a daily basis as it helps to reduce the cost of the operation on a new airport, makes business costumers more loyal, scares away competition and allows to offer more connetcions options. One simple example is the outstanding sucess on JFK route and the rumored beginning of the EWR flight!

With all the 77W and A350 yet to arrive I hope to see CX back in ZRH and why not in GRU in a not so distant future  

Brdgs,
winGl3t
 
HBIHLtoEZE
Posts: 247
Joined: Tue Aug 17, 2004 10:50 pm

RE: Why No CX In ZRH?

Sun Dec 11, 2011 8:24 pm

Quoting winGl3t (Reply 3):
ZRH has been on the radar for a number of years along with places like Manchester, Munich, South America etc..

There has been rumours (almost predictions from reliable sources) last summer that CX would make its return to ZRH in 2012 or 2013 once more 77Ws are delivered - let's see.

I am missing CX in Zürich a lot. I have often wondered why there is just one flight between those two financial centers. It appears that the daily LX flight has full first and biz classes...

If I remember correctly CX inaugurated their ZRH flight in 1989. At first the route was flown with 747-200s:


Cathay Pacific Boeing 747-267B; VR-HIH@ZRH, October 1991/ DRM by Aero Icarus, on Flickr

...and then with 747-400s...


Cathay Pacific Boeing 747-400; VR-HOW@ZRH;04.03.1995 by Aero Icarus, on Flickr

For a brief period (before the A343 were available) they sent the A340-200 to ZRH (they only operated four machines - which are now in service and/or grounded by Aerolineas Argentinas)...


Cathay Pacific Airbus A340-200; VR-HMU@ZRH;06.05.1995 by Aero Icarus, on Flickr

...and then until the bitter end - in 2001 - Airbus A340-313Xs...


4ao - Cathay Pacific Airbus A340-313X; B-HXD@ZRH;29.12.1997 by Aero Icarus, on Flickr


86al - Cathay Pacific Airbus A340-313X; B-HXG@ZRH;28.02.2000 by Aero Icarus, on Flickr

ZRH has lost quite a few Asian (but long-haul carriers in general) over the years: Philippine Airlines served Zürich in the 1980s, Garuda until the mid-90s, Air China until 2002 (?), Malaysia Airlines until 2008, Mandarin Airlines from 1996 until 2000 (?) .

Hainan Airlines are now offering some weekly flights to PEK, and SriLankan Airlines are now back, too...


What has grown of course is the presence of airlines from the Arabian peninsula, Emirates, of course, and Qatar, and now, very recently, Oman Air has started flying to ZRH as well. Gulf Air, on the other hand, stopped their service some ten years ago...

It appears that quite some traffic wandered off to MUC during the last decade - when Swiss was suffering from its labour pains after their overhasty creation following Swissair's demise (such as South African Airways)...

many cheers

[Edited 2011-12-11 12:29:46]
Our battered suitcases were piled on the sidewalk again; we had longer ways to go. But no matter, the road is life.
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Why No CX In ZRH?

Sun Dec 11, 2011 8:43 pm

Quoting CX Flyboy (Reply 2):

ZRH has been on the radar

Cathay Pacific and Air China dropped out here at almost the same time, in spite of good bookings for the months ahead. .... and this just a few months after that state visit of the Chinese State President to Switzerland which went badly wrong
---- Honi soit qui mal y pense
 
 
HBIHLtoEZE
Posts: 247
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RE: Why No CX In ZRH?

Sun Dec 11, 2011 9:19 pm

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 5):
Cathay Pacific and Air China dropped out here at almost the same time, in spite of good bookings for the months ahead. .... and this just a few months after that state visit of the Chinese State President to Switzerland which went badly wrong



From guardian.co.uk:

Mr Jiang is known to be particularly sensitive to protests. During a visit to Switzerland in March he was said to be angered that pro-Tibet demonstrators had been allowed to get close to him, and told the Swiss parliament: "You have lost a good friend." (October 20, 1999)



Interesting, especially the withrdawal of CA from Switzerland was a surprise then -

cheers
Our battered suitcases were piled on the sidewalk again; we had longer ways to go. But no matter, the road is life.
 
BestWestern
Posts: 7185
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2000 8:46 pm

RE: Why No CX In ZRH?

Sun Dec 11, 2011 11:48 pm

O&D is well covered by Swiss.
Connections well covered by star alliance partners.

CX dropped the route because it was losing money.
You are 100 times more likely to catch a cold on a flight than an average person!
 
flythere
Posts: 205
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RE: Why No CX In ZRH?

Mon Dec 12, 2011 1:12 am

Quoting winGl3t (Reply 3):
the rumored beginning of the EWR flight!

Actually CX did announce in a less-conventional way LOL

Cathay Pacific Planning EWR Launch Summer 2012 (by flythere Nov 17 2011 in Civil Aviation)?threadid=5309644&searchid=5324021&s=Cathay+EWR#ID5324021

It would indeed be very nice to see ZRH back to CX network when those A350 arrive!
 
ZKOJH
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RE: Why No CX In ZRH?

Mon Dec 12, 2011 3:21 am

At one stage there was strongs words that CX were going do a HKG-ZRH-MAN with the 77W this was ment to happen at the end of 2011 and then all died away.
Vietnam time..
 
something
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RE: Why No CX In ZRH?

Mon Dec 12, 2011 3:37 am

CX has always been a curious airline to me. They aren't flying to MUC, ZRH, anywhere in South America, but they do fly to MXP. Also, ever since the picture scandal, I have a very special place in my heart reserved for CX boardcrew   
..sick of it. -K. Pilkington.
 
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PM
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RE: Why No CX In ZRH?

Mon Dec 12, 2011 5:27 am

Quoting HBIHLtoEZE (Reply 4):
...and then with 747-400s...

  

My first ever Cathay flight was CX290 ZRH-HKG on 7th April 1993 on 747-400 VR-HOU upstairs in Business.   

But it's not just Cathay who've pulled out. It's not that long ago that JAL were flying 747s into ZRH and I don't think Malaysia still fly there any more. (My first ever 777 flight was on MH010 KUL-ZRH in 1999.)
 
SR4ever
Posts: 388
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RE: Why No CX In ZRH?

Mon Dec 12, 2011 7:19 am

Quoting HBIHLtoEZE (Reply 4):
ZRH has lost quite a few Asian (but long-haul carriers in general) over the years: Philippine Airlines served Zürich in the 1980s, Garuda until the mid-90s, Air China until 2002 (?), Malaysia Airlines until 2008, Mandarin Airlines from 1996 until 2000 (?) .

CX pulled out of ZRH as SR was collapsing, which make sense, as SR and CX had been code-sharing ZRH-HKG since the route opened in 1989.

MH left in the aftermath of the SARS crisis.

We can ceratinlw expect both of them to be back to ZRH. Perahps OV could join, too.
 
Chamonix
Posts: 354
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RE: Why No CX In ZRH?

Mon Dec 12, 2011 7:29 am

Is it because ZRH is a Star Alliance hub?
Monopolistic of sorts?
If CX would fly to ZRH which type of A/C?
Do they go to GVA?
 
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BreninTW
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RE: Why No CX In ZRH?

Mon Dec 12, 2011 7:32 am

Quoting Chamonix (Reply 13):
Do they go to GVA?

CX doesn't fly to Switzerland at all. I have a good friend who lives in Zurich -- every time I look at flights to visit, CX tries to route me via LHR, and charge an arm, a leg and two front teeth for the flight.
 
User avatar
PM
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RE: Why No CX In ZRH?

Mon Dec 12, 2011 7:53 am

Quoting SR4ever (Reply 12):
Perahps OV could join, too.

Did you mean OZ? Great airline!
 
ZRH
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RE: Why No CX In ZRH?

Mon Dec 12, 2011 8:34 am

In our days, in comparison to 1980ies and 1990ies, it is mainly a matter of alliance. As ZRH is a strong Star hub it is not really interesting for CX to fly only o/d passengers on this route. It is the same in another way round with SA, they stopped the ZRH flight when they joined Star because there is at moment no place for two daily flights between ZRH and JNB.
 
something
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RE: Why No CX In ZRH?

Mon Dec 12, 2011 10:47 am

Quoting Chamonix (Reply 13):
Is it because ZRH is a Star Alliance hub?
Monopolistic of sorts?

It probably does play into it, but I can hardly see this as one of their main concerns. They fly into too many other One World free regions. It is probably as unspectacular a reason as outlined by

Quoting CX Flyboy (Reply 2):

Aircraft shortage and other priorities.
..sick of it. -K. Pilkington.
 
CX Flyboy
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RE: Why No CX In ZRH?

Mon Dec 12, 2011 3:18 pm

Quoting something (Reply 10):
CX has always been a curious airline to me. They aren't flying to MUC, ZRH, anywhere in South America, but they do fly to MXP.

South America is definately on the radar. MXP is a very high yield route for CX with plenty of premium passengers and in fact its one of our most profitable routes at the moment.
 
EddieDude
Posts: 6302
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RE: Why No CX In ZRH?

Mon Dec 12, 2011 6:10 pm

Quoting CX Flyboy (Reply 18):
South America is definately on the radar.

CX has indicated that they are looking at destinations in Latin America. CX would need to fly there via an intermediate stopover with, preferably, fifth freedom rights in order to make those routes work. GRU seems for obvious reasons a good choice, subject to the fifth freedom issue. MEX is being looked at and CX would like to have LAX or SFO as its stopover, but that is never going to happen. I believe someone mentioned LIM was also under serious consideration.

Quoting CX Flyboy (Reply 18):
MXP is a very high yield route for CX with plenty of premium passengers and in fact its one of our most profitable routes at the moment.

I guess there is a good combination of premium tourism and business traffic. Remember big Italian fashion houses like Prada have listed or are looking into listing on the Hong Kong exchange, and therefore there will be a steady flow of businesspeople and advisors between Milan and H.K.
Next flights: MEX-LAX AM 738, LAX-PVG DL 77L, SHA-PEK CA 789, PEK-PVG CA A332, PVG-ORD MU 77W, ORD-MEX AM 738
 
CX Flyboy
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RE: Why No CX In ZRH?

Mon Dec 12, 2011 11:24 pm

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 19):
Quoting CX Flyboy (Reply 18):
South America is definately on the radar.

CX has indicated that they are looking at destinations in Latin America. CX would need to fly there via an intermediate stopover with, preferably, fifth freedom rights in order to make those routes work. GRU seems for obvious reasons a good choice, subject to the fifth freedom issue. MEX is being looked at and CX would like to have LAX or SFO as its stopover, but that is never going to happen. I believe someone mentioned LIM was also under serious consideration.

They are looking into Santiago and the ability to feed into LAN's one world route network, amongst other cities they are looking at.
 
Viscount724
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RE: Why No CX In ZRH?

Mon Dec 12, 2011 11:43 pm

Quoting Chamonix (Reply 13):
Do they go to GVA?

No. I think the only carrier from Southeast or East Asia (east of India) that has ever served GVA was TG which briefly served GVA in 2002-03, first as a tag-on from ATH using a standard 773 (non-ER) with 5th freedom rights GVA-ATH. That was replaced with a 744 tag-on from ZRH (of couse with no local traffic rights on the 30 minute domestic sector). That proved even less economic and only lasted a few months.


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something
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RE: Why No CX In ZRH?

Tue Dec 13, 2011 11:42 am

Quoting CX Flyboy (Reply 18):
South America is definately on the radar. MXP is a very high yield route for CX with plenty of premium passengers and in fact its one of our most profitable routes at the moment.

I wouldn't doubt it for a second, it's just that a destination like MXP doesn't really ''fit'' into CX's strategy. It's a relatively small city, not a business capital, not a capital, not a real hub, not home to any One World carriers, not the only city they fly to in Italy etc.

Like I said, CX could be doing great out of many other markets as well, if only money to buy airplanes, time to hire and train staff and congestion at HKG weren't such limiting factors. If they flew A332 into Europe, I could see them succeed out of very many European airports (VIE, MUC, HAM, MAN, BER etc.)
..sick of it. -K. Pilkington.
 
EddieDude
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RE: Why No CX In ZRH?

Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:22 pm

Quoting something (Reply 22):
a destination like MXP doesn't really ''fit'' into CX's strategy. It's a relatively small city, not a business capital, not a capital, not a real hub, not home to any One World carriers, not the only city they fly to in Italy etc.

So, by your definition CX should not be flying to ADL either (QF's presence at ADL is not that great and CX and QF don't cooperate much anyway). Do you have any basis to say that CX's strategy excludes those types of destinations? I believe that a more sound strategy is to fly routes where demand and potential for profits exist, without considering the status of an airport as a hub or non-hub or as a capital city. Just my two cents.
Next flights: MEX-LAX AM 738, LAX-PVG DL 77L, SHA-PEK CA 789, PEK-PVG CA A332, PVG-ORD MU 77W, ORD-MEX AM 738
 
something
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RE: Why No CX In ZRH?

Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:43 pm

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 23):
So, by your definition CX should not be flying to ADL either (QF's presence at ADL is not that great and CX and QF don't cooperate much anyway). Do you have any basis to say that CX's strategy excludes those types of destinations? I believe that a more sound strategy is to fly routes where demand and potential for profits exist, without considering the status of an airport as a hub or non-hub or as a capital city. Just my two cents.

I am saying that given CX's relatively scarce presence in Europe, MXP is a bit of a surprise destination to me. There are other destinations, such as Zürich or Madrid for example, that I would have assumed to be more attractive to CX if they are short of metal/crews to go to all of these places.
..sick of it. -K. Pilkington.
 
runway23
Posts: 1947
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RE: Why No CX In ZRH?

Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:51 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 21):
No. I think the only carrier from Southeast or East Asia (east of India) that has ever served GVA was TG which briefly served GVA in 2002-03, first as a tag-on from ATH using a standard 773 (non-ER) with 5th freedom rights GVA-ATH. That was replaced with a 744 tag-on from ZRH (of couse with no local traffic rights on the 30 minute domestic sector). That proved even less economic and only lasted a few months.

TG never had local rights on GVA-ATH, the Greek government wanted to protect OA at the time. One of the main problems that GVA-ATH-BKK leg had was that both stations contested the allocation of capacity and in the end that was dropped for ZRH.

ZRH-GVA leg had good loads, however the costs of operating such a leg proved to be too great.

In fact, just a few years ago TG almost returned to GVA (a tag to BRU had been discussed), however they gave up this idea once some Gulf carriers started GVA.
 
ZRH
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RE: Why No CX In ZRH?

Tue Dec 13, 2011 3:26 pm

Quoting something (Reply 22):
I wouldn't doubt it for a second, it's just that a destination like MXP doesn't really ''fit'' into CX's strategy. It's a relatively small city, not a business capital,

Milan not a business capital???? I think you understand something wrong. The Lombardy (the region around Milan) is one of the strongest business regions in Europe. There is the golden triangle Munich-Stuttgart-Zurich-Milan.

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