FWAERJ
Topic Author
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Is IND About To Emerge From A Long Slump?

Sun Dec 11, 2011 11:30 pm

For a while, it seemed that in spite of the loss of TZ, nothing could go wrong at IND.

The NW focus city was in full swing, FL and other LCCs were adding service, there were rumors of B6 entering IND, and a new terminal was being built to replace the overcrowded 1960s jet-age building. To top it all off, BAA Indianapolis (which ran IND back then) said that IND was underserved and had nowhere to go but up.

Then, a series of events happened. Here they are, in chronological order from oldest to newest:
- BAA ended their contract to manage IND a year early, forcing the Indianapolis Airport Authority (IAA) to take control early.
- DL and NW merged while gutting the IND focus city to only hubs and select spokes. (Some say that DL did this to protect the CVG hub, but that's a different story.)
- Adding insult to injury, DL cut fares from CVG as the PMNW IND focus city was being dismantled. With the fare playing field more level, passengers from Cincinnati that chose IND for lower fares than CVG had one less reason to choose IND over CVG.
- The Great Recession of 2008, which hammered the city of Indianapolis hard, occurred. As is the case in virtually every recession, local travel demand was reduced.
- The new midfield terminal opened, but with fewer flights running through it. It also had much higher costs to the airlines than the previous facility.
- With higher costs to airlines than before, the IAA found it hard to attract new service to IND. Only one new "airline" started service at IND after the new terminal opened: Branson AirExpress (which was lured away from HUF). The XE-operated flights only lasted two months.
- IND fixed the cost problem in a way with new five-year airline lease deals, with WN and DL pledging additional new service as part of the deals. Neither airline added additional IND service following the new lease deals.
- The IAA management finally acknowledged the loss of Cincinnati-area leakage back to CVG. Billboards were placed around Cincinnati encouraging locals to "Leave CVG behIND", followed by "Leave SDF behIND" billboards in Louisville.

As of late, things are looking up again. IND has some excellent opportunities ahead:
- Following a brutal re-election campaign, Indianapolis Mayor Greg Ballard is vowing more aggressive passenger air service development at IND. When the mayor of your city (re)commits to your airport, that's always a good sign.
- The Super Bowl will be hitting Indianapolis soon. This should be IND's moment to shine and demonstrate their new terminal to the world. And there will probably be additional flights scheduled into IND to help fill up Lucas Oil Stadium. I can only see positives for IND with the Super Bowl.
- Currently, fast-growing NK doesn't serve IND. But with the WN/FL merger creating a new #1 carrier at IND, an opportunity from WN's higher-than-FL fares might open up, particularly to Florida and LAS. Will NK rise to the challenge, or will they continue to shy away from IND due to the high fees?
- The IAA continues to seek service to SFO, and if a recent route map leak by UA proves true, IND just might get it. Last time it was attempted, it was a seasonal service by NW with little feed from SFO. As an Asian and West Coast gateway for UA, it seems that the Friendly Skies is better-suited for the IND-SFO route than NW or even DL will ever be.
- Other cities could also be a good fit for IND. SAN (likely served by WN) is a natural due to the life sciences industry in both cities. MYR is offering incentives to any airline that could start IND-MYR. And there's still the elusive European hub service; though whether the DL/AF/KL, UA/LH/LX, or AA/BA/IB joint-ventures will start it remains to be seen.

One question remains: After this long slump, are brighter days ahead for IND?
"Did he really need the triple bypass? Or was it the miles?"
 
flyguy89
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RE: Is IND About To Emerge From A Long Slump?

Mon Dec 12, 2011 1:34 am



Quoting FWAERJ (Thread starter):
Indianapolis Mayor Greg Ballard is vowing more aggressive passenger air service development at IND.


I wouldn't expect much. Politicians always get mouthy about these sort of things, but unless the city is going to outright offer subsidies/incentives for various routes, the only thing the Mayor can really do is grow the city and the region and thus grow demand.

Quoting FWAERJ (Thread starter):
And there's still the elusive European hub service


Outside of LHR, I'm not sure the demographics are really there to support TATL service from Indianapolis. I think IND's only and best hope for a European service would be an AA 757 to LHR...but then again how long have people been talking on here about expansion of AA 757 service to LHR from mid-sized cities. Of course they could always just pay for it like PIT did.

Just out of curiosity though, has IND ever had scheduled non-stop passenger service to Europe?
Quoting FWAERJ (Thread starter):
One question remains: After this long slump, are brighter days ahead for IND?

It's tough to say really as, with DL slowly relinquishing CVG, the whole competitive landscape of the tri-state area will be changing. I think for so long, a good portion of IND's growth came from Cincinnati-area leakage which worked greatly to IND's benefit for almost 20 years I'd say, and DAY follows much the same narrative. But long-term now I think we'll be seeing CVG become much more reasonable fare-wise and O&D focused as it should be and consequently the flood of leakage that used to come from Cincinnati will slow to a trickle. So, IMHO, the days of the big 4-way battle between CMH, SDF, IND, and DAY to attract each others' pax are over I think and any growth or new service at IND will have to come from the Indianapolis area itself.

[Edited 2011-12-11 17:43:16]
 
LV
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RE: Is IND About To Emerge From A Long Slump?

Mon Dec 12, 2011 2:55 am

I'm not quite as optimistic as you are despite the fact that I love my hometown. I think the Branson flights were a desperate move to do something, anything to show for the bright new shiny terminal.

Quoting FWAERJ (Thread starter):
- Currently, fast-growing NK doesn't serve IND. But with the WN/FL merger creating a new #1 carrier at IND, an opportunity from WN's higher-than-FL fares might open up, particularly to Florida and LAS. Will NK rise to the challenge, or will they continue to shy away from IND due to the high fees?
Quoting FWAERJ (Thread starter):
Other cities could also be a good fit for IND. SAN (likely served by WN) is a natural due to the life sciences industry in both cities. MYR is offering incentives to any airline that could start IND-MYR.

I used to think there is no way IND is on NK's radar... but after the incentives MYR is offering I think IND is being discussed at NK headquarters. I can see NK doing a MYR-IND-RSW-IND-MYR routing and doing decent at it despite the "high costs" of IND. FL dominates IND-RSW right now but I think the route is probably not a priority for WN and Fort Myers/ Bonita Springs really is Indy's southern most suburb.  
Quoting FWAERJ (Thread starter):
The IAA continues to seek service to SFO, and if a recent route map leak by UA proves true, IND just might get it. Last time it was attempted, it was a seasonal service by NW with little feed from SFO. As an Asian and West Coast gateway for UA, it seems that the Friendly Skies is better-suited for the IND-SFO route than NW or even DL will ever be.

It flopped on NW... but I think it will do great on UA simply because of the asian feed. IND has a major pharmaceutical and biotech community and I think the feed from asia along with the medical community in the bay area could easily fill at 2 319s a day.
 
boilerla
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RE: Is IND About To Emerge From A Long Slump?

Mon Dec 12, 2011 5:57 am

Quoting LV (Reply 2):
It flopped on NW... but I think it will do great on UA simply because of the asian feed. IND has a major pharmaceutical and biotech community and I think the feed from asia along with the medical community in the bay area could easily fill at 2 319s a day.

I imagine that since the route is being specifically started by CO instead of UA, it would be a 738 or 73G. Could be wrong but not sure why they'd use CO to start the route (according to the online route map) and then use PMUA equipment. But yeah I think they could fill 1-2 73Gs a day. Since I detest being on a CRJ for 3 hours I'd like to see them upguage one of the IAH flights to a 73G as well, but...

BTW ever priced IND-IAH? I've seen it priced at over $1k many times. UA definitely wants you to just use it as a feeder; they don't want you to fly it O/D. Change it to IND-AUS and it's $300, connecting through IAH! I'd love to see them bring it back to mainline at least 1x a day, combined with a resonable fare. Same thing with IND-EWR.
 
point2point
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RE: Is IND About To Emerge From A Long Slump?

Mon Dec 12, 2011 6:05 am

Quoting FWAERJ (Thread starter):
The IAA continues to seek service to SFO,

The T-100 shows over 350 O&D pax per day, so it would seem that it could support at least a daily flight, even on a small mainline.

Quoting FWAERJ (Thread starter):
- Currently, fast-growing NK doesn't serve IND. But with the WN/FL merger creating a new #1 carrier at IND, an opportunity from WN's higher-than-FL fares might open up, particularly to Florida and LAS. Will NK rise to the challenge, or will they continue to shy away from IND due to the high fees?


In addition to chasing after the rather elusive NK (who are favoring big hubs right now it seems) or the we do what we do WN/FL, how about considering the hometown RAH. They do own F9 (for how long though, who knows) and maybe there could be some enticement there? And they are a group that can be incentivetized.....

 
 
smoot4208
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RE: Is IND About To Emerge From A Long Slump?

Mon Dec 12, 2011 6:40 am

So is IND-SFO happening for sure?
 
Indy
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RE: Is IND About To Emerge From A Long Slump?

Mon Dec 12, 2011 6:50 am

I haven't posted here in a very long time so I hate for my first post to spoil the party but IND-SFO is a Super Bowl only flight. IND-SFO is bookable on United.com on Feb 6th, 2012. Not sure why it would appear in the route map. All I can think is that the flight appears in the timetable for that day and the route map is generated based on the timetable.
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
LV
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RE: Is IND About To Emerge From A Long Slump?

Mon Dec 12, 2011 9:58 am

Quoting Indy (Reply 6):
IND-SFO is a Super Bowl only flight. IND-SFO is bookable on United.com on Feb 6th, 2012.

Well better to know the reality than keep hoping for a dream that won't happen. I still stand by my statement that 2 a day for feed from the asian flights would work but with SFO possibly going to slots I guess UA really doesn't want to do that.

Quoting boilerla (Reply 3):
imagine that since the route is being specifically started by CO instead of UA, it would be a 738 or 73G. Could be wrong but not sure why they'd use CO to start the route (according to the online route map) and then use PMUA equipment.

You are right. I was at work when I wrote that and couldn't remember if CO still had 73G's. I figured a 738 might be a bit to large and that's why I said 319. That's what I get for posting between clients.
 
Indy
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RE: Is IND About To Emerge From A Long Slump?

Mon Dec 12, 2011 4:46 pm

Quoting LV (Reply 7):
I still stand by my statement that 2 a day for feed from the asian flights would work but with SFO possibly going to slots I guess UA really doesn't want to do that.

Wouldn't the same be true for airlines with Asian flights out of LAX and SEA? With nearly a total lack of west coast service from IND it would make sense to offer the nonstop service to the west coast city with the flight timed to allow a connection to Asia.
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
threeifbyair
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RE: Is IND About To Emerge From A Long Slump?

Mon Dec 12, 2011 5:12 pm

Quoting Indy (Reply 8):
Wouldn't the same be true for airlines with Asian flights out of LAX and SEA?

The IND market is probably a bit small for AS presently, but the recent mid-con expansion to STL and now MCI will be interesting to watch. Unfortunately for potential IND service, I've been seeing some smashing deals on STL, which may indicate that AS is having trouble with yields on that route. It wouldn't surprise me if some AS loyalists are renting cars in STL and driving to IND - I've done that in EWR (to PHL) and DCA (to PHF).

If AS started SEA-IND-SEA service with the intent of capturing some Asia-bound passengers, the inbound flight would need to an afternoon departure from SEA and RON in IND or a red-eye because of the timing of the DL flights: KIX departs at 1135, NRT is at 1250, and PEK currently goes at 1755. Thus, IND-SEA would need to depart in the morning.

I just did IND-MSP-SEA on DL and noticed more than a few pax from my half-full IND-MSP E175 continuing onto SEA. This was my first visit to IND and I love the new terminal. I appreciate the rental cars being in the garage, not in some remote location (looking at you, SEA...).
 
stlgph
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RE: Is IND About To Emerge From A Long Slump?

Mon Dec 12, 2011 5:29 pm

I can see Spirit coming in depending on what the combined AirTran/Southwest cuts end up being to Florida service.


it would be nice to see Sun Country at Indianapolis.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
ORDJOE
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RE: Is IND About To Emerge From A Long Slump?

Mon Dec 12, 2011 11:25 pm

I am though surprised it can not handle a 757 to LHR, CDG, or AMS granted it would be all IND citizens O&D. It is a bigger city and has a good corporate presence. I am surprised they are not pulling a PIT and just paying for it.
 
LV
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RE: Is IND About To Emerge From A Long Slump?

Mon Dec 12, 2011 11:38 pm

Quoting Indy (Reply 8):
Wouldn't the same be true for airlines with Asian flights out of LAX and SEA?

But no one has a hub at LAX or SEA on the scale that UA does at SFO... particuarly for trans-pac flights.

Quoting stlgph (Reply 10):
it would be nice to see Sun Country at Indianapolis.

How is the SY expansion in LAN going? I just don't see SY doing much of anything outside of MSP.

Quoting stlgph (Reply 10):
I can see Spirit coming in depending on what the combined AirTran/Southwest cuts end up being to Florida service.

I think this is the most likely slump buster (tongue in cheek) for IND

Quoting ThreeIfByAir (Reply 9):
If AS started SEA-IND-SEA

As much as I was love that I just don't see the market recognition that AS would need in IND to make it work for a while.
 
stlgph
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RE: Is IND About To Emerge From A Long Slump?

Tue Dec 13, 2011 12:55 am

Quoting LV (Reply 12):
Quoting stlgph (Reply 10):
it would be nice to see Sun Country at Indianapolis.

How is the SY expansion in LAN going? I just don't see SY doing much of anything outside of MSP.

my friends at SY headquarters say Lansing is holding its own and is serving its purpose. if routes stick around, Sun Country must be doing ok with them. Sun Country just doesn't have the resources to sit around on routes that aren't making them any money.
personally i like the airline and would like to see them grow a little - nothing huge or massive - i think staying small works well for them a bit but a handful of destinations out of a new city would be nice for them. Frontier's kind of laying its eggs in other cities - such as Omaha and Des Moines, Milwaukee, Chicago, and St. Louis are all spoken for - but i think there's a slight void in Indianapolis they could fill.

Quoting LV (Reply 12):
Quoting stlgph (Reply 10):
I can see Spirit coming in depending on what the combined AirTran/Southwest cuts end up being to Florida service.

I think this is the most likely slump buster (tongue in cheek) for IND

agreed. if they would do it .... Allegiant would do well with a handful of flights there. better than nothing.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
mmedford
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RE: Is IND About To Emerge From A Long Slump?

Tue Dec 13, 2011 1:03 am

Why; is Peyton finally going to get off that bench and do something?

*fill*

*fill*
ILS = It'll Land Somewhere
 
as739x
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RE: Is IND About To Emerge From A Long Slump?

Tue Dec 13, 2011 1:35 am

Quoting LV (Reply 7):

Well let's not get to excited. I think IND-SFO could handle 1 daily flight, but 2 is pushing it. A morning flight to connect with Asian departures would be nice, but UA/CO is running into other issue's and that's lack of gate availability during that morning push at SFO.

Look at the SFO-STL start and that it didn't connect to the morning rush. I think any traffic later in the day can be funneled via ORD/DEN.
"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
 
Tan Flyr
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RE: Is IND About To Emerge From A Long Slump?

Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:02 am

Quoting as739x (Reply 15):
Well let's not get to excited. I think IND-SFO could handle 1 daily flight, but 2 is pushing it. A morning flight to connect with Asian departures would be nice, but UA/CO is running into other issue's and that's lack of gate availability during that morning push at SFO.

Look at the SFO-STL start and that it didn't connect to the morning rush. I think any traffic later in the day can be funneled via ORD/DEN.

Agreed..how much of the daily IND-SFO traffic is on UA? Than connects to an Asian destination? Or a United Express flight at SFO? The other carriers hauling SFO bound traffic count on that as part of the mix filling the connecting flights at ORD/ DEN/ SLC/ DFW or PHX (or elsewhere) Don't think that they wouldn't put up a fight to retain those SFO customers.


Quoting point2point (Reply 4):
The T-100 shows over 350 O&D pax per day, so it would seem that it could support at least a daily flight, even on a small mainline

That's a lot of folks that the others are not going to let just walk over to UA..IMHO.
 
bobnwa
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RE: Is IND About To Emerge From A Long Slump?

Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:44 pm

Quoting ordjoe (Reply 11):
I am though surprised it can not handle a 757 to LHR, CDG, or AMS granted it would be all IND citizens O&D




Why do you think boardings would be all IND citizens, when most flights from the US to
Europe carry more European citizens than US citizens? What would make IND different?
 
Indy
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RE: Is IND About To Emerge From A Long Slump?

Tue Dec 13, 2011 3:45 pm

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 17):
Why do you think boardings would be all IND citizens

I suspect ordjoe meant the flight wouldn't have feed to help fill it.
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
mogandoCI
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RE: Is IND About To Emerge From A Long Slump?

Tue Dec 13, 2011 4:12 pm

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 17):
when most flights from the US to
Europe carry more European citizens than US citizens? What would make IND different?

Because IND is nothing close to Top 10 or even Top 20 tourist destinations to visit ? You can have corporate traffic both ways, but the tourism traffic is probably outbound only.
 
bobnwa
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RE: Is IND About To Emerge From A Long Slump?

Tue Dec 13, 2011 6:33 pm

[quote=Indy,reply=18]Quoting bobnwa (Reply 17):
Why do you think boardings would be all IND citizens

I suspect ordjoe meant the flight wouldn't have feed to help fill it.


I suspect that ordjoe skipped over the fact that the flights would have feed from the Europe side at the AMS, CDG, or LHR hubs. Many on this forum seem to florget that.
 
Indy
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RE: Is IND About To Emerge From A Long Slump?

Tue Dec 13, 2011 9:29 pm

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 20):

I suspect that ordjoe skipped over the fact that the flights would have feed from the Europe side at the AMS, CDG, or LHR hubs. Many on this forum seem to florget that.

I know that in my mind when I think IND-AMS I'm really thinking IND-AMS-Europe. The advantage of course being eliminating that extra connection and flying something like IND-AMS-CGN instead of IND-DTW-AMS-CGN. The real big plus is the return flight. You clear customs and go home. You don't have to recheck your bag and wait for another flight.
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
atrude777
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RE: Is IND About To Emerge From A Long Slump?

Tue Dec 13, 2011 9:49 pm

Quoting FWAERJ (Thread starter):

- IND fixed the cost problem in a way with new five-year airline lease deals, with WN and DL pledging additional new service as part of the deals. Neither airline added additional IND service following the new lease deals.

When did the Airline Lease start? SWA added new IND-DEN service (June 2008) which I would think falls within the 5 Year Lease? (New Airport officially opened Nov 2008).

Alex
Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
 
Cubsrule
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RE: Is IND About To Emerge From A Long Slump?

Tue Dec 13, 2011 9:53 pm

Quoting tan flyr (Reply 16):
Agreed..how much of the daily IND-SFO traffic is on UA?

It's pretty fragmented today. UA gets about 40 percent of the traffic in STL with a nonstop and could probably get a similar share in IND.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
FWAERJ
Topic Author
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RE: Is IND About To Emerge From A Long Slump?

Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:01 am

Quoting atrude777 (Reply 22):
When did the Airline Lease start? SWA added new IND-DEN service (June 2008) which I would think falls within the 5 Year Lease? (New Airport officially opened Nov 2008).

The new leases started January 1, 2011 and run for 5 years.
http://www.indianapolisairport.com/a...0IAAairlineUseAgreementRelease.pdf

Quoting stlgph (Reply 13):
if they would do it .... Allegiant would do well with a handful of flights there. better than nothing.

As stated before, IND is not Allegiant's kind of market. You'll see G4 serve HUF or LAF with scheduled service before IND.
"Did he really need the triple bypass? Or was it the miles?"
 
atrude777
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RE: Is IND About To Emerge From A Long Slump?

Wed Dec 14, 2011 2:15 am

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 24):

The new leases started January 1, 2011 and run for 5 years.
http://www.indianapolisairport.com/a...0IAAairlineUseAgreementRelease.pdf

Ok, so it JUST started? Well, hold your horses then we got five years to go before we start getting on WN and DL for not adding flights Hahaha. When 2016 comes around and nothing happens then we can get on the airlines for it.

Alex
Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
 
Indy
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RE: Is IND About To Emerge From A Long Slump?

Wed Dec 14, 2011 5:22 am

I personally don't expect anything to change at IND as long as the current leadership is in place. What can you say about an airport this size where the leadership celebrates trivial accomplishments like adding service to Branson (which promptly failed) and non aviation things like oil changes and detailing services.
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
Cubsrule
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RE: Is IND About To Emerge From A Long Slump?

Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:27 pm

Quoting Indy (Reply 26):
What can you say about an airport this size where the leadership celebrates trivial accomplishments like adding service to Branson (which promptly failed) and non aviation things like oil changes and detailing services.

Sorry, I don't see the connection. Why shouldn't the airport be happy to add air service and to add ancillary services for passengers. Many mid-sized airports haven't added a single new route (to BKG or anywhere else) in years.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
stlgph
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RE: Is IND About To Emerge From A Long Slump?

Wed Dec 14, 2011 2:35 pm

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 24):
As stated before, IND is not Allegiant's kind of market. You'll see G4 serve HUF or LAF with scheduled service before IND.

i know this. However, Allegiant staying in smaller markets forever ... i just don't see happening. If they wanted to test the waters on a bigger market again (since they tried Oklahoma City once) - Indianapolis would be a great start depending on how Southwest adjusts their IND-Florida/Vegas service schedule.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
Indy
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RE: Is IND About To Emerge From A Long Slump?

Wed Dec 14, 2011 3:42 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 27):
Sorry, I don't see the connection.

The problem is they don't seem to understand their own business. Remember when NW/DL was slashing all those routes? The leadership was unaware the cuts were coming. Remember that BKG experiment? They actually thought there was significant demand for the route. Those two issues are an indicator of a bigger problem at IND.
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
FlyPNS1
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RE: Is IND About To Emerge From A Long Slump?

Wed Dec 14, 2011 3:48 pm

Quoting Indy (Reply 29):
Remember when NW/DL was slashing all those routes? The leadership was unaware the cuts were coming.

I doubt they were unaware. There was probably little they could do as most of those IND p2p routes were big losers when oil prices rose and the economy faltered.

Quoting Indy (Reply 29):
Remember that BKG experiment? They actually thought there was significant demand for the route.

I doubt they expected that much demand, but the airport authority will usually try to promote any new route even if it has a low probability of succeeding.

As for IND, you might pick up one or two routes, but with fuel prices high, the economy weak and most carriers continuing to cut capacity, I doubt you will see much. The same is true for most mid-sized airports like IND.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: Is IND About To Emerge From A Long Slump?

Wed Dec 14, 2011 3:48 pm

Quoting Indy (Reply 29):
Remember that BKG experiment? They actually thought there was significant demand for the route.

There's certainly demand for IND-BKG. The problem is getting folks off of buses and on to airplanes. Why was that effort doomed to fail?
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
stlgph
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RE: Is IND About To Emerge From A Long Slump?

Wed Dec 14, 2011 3:53 pm

Quoting Indy (Reply 29):

the IND airport management is not incompetant -- they are working with what is coming at them. it's like the STL airport management -- had they known TWA/AA would be gone, they'd probably have not spent say $2 billion for a new runway.

had the IND airport management known say 5-6 airlines wouldn't have been around when their new terminal opened, they may have done things a little differently. however, a new terminal most likely *still* would have been built.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
Indy
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RE: Is IND About To Emerge From A Long Slump?

Wed Dec 14, 2011 4:23 pm

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 30):
I doubt they were unaware.

No they were unaware. This came from a very reliable source. Their information came straight from IND brass.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 30):
I doubt they expected that much demand

They absolutely did. They were confident IND-BKG would work. I got that information first hand.

Quoting stlgph (Reply 32):

the IND airport management is not incompetant -- they are working with what is coming at them

I disagree with that statement. It isn't like the lost a hub and just cannot regular to the glory days. They have lost considerable service without having a hub. There are numerous routes with only a single carrier and a grocery list of mid and large markets without service at all. Here is a list of destinations that had service in recent years and have since lost it...

AUS, SAT, MSY, JAX, BDL, PIT, STL, SFO, SEA... and just to be funny... BKG . Did I miss any?

There are a couple big markets that have never had service such as SAN and PDX.

There is or course the list of cities that have seen huge service declines and a loss of competition.

LAX which isn't even 1x daily on a yearly basis
LAS formerly a top IND destination with 3 carriers on the route now has just 1 and 2 or 3 daily departures
MCO was another huge IND destination with as many as 3 carriers. With FL/WN merger there will be just one and only about 3 daily nonstops
TPA was another popular destination and like MCO will be left with 1 carrier and just 2 daily departures

There are plenty of opportunities out there for good management.
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
Cubsrule
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RE: Is IND About To Emerge From A Long Slump?

Wed Dec 14, 2011 4:33 pm

Quoting Indy (Reply 33):
There are plenty of opportunities out there for good management.

Maybe, but how are LAX (long and thin), LAS (long and thin and heavily leisure), TPA (leisure) or MCO (leisure) such opportunities?
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
FlyPNS1
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RE: Is IND About To Emerge From A Long Slump?

Wed Dec 14, 2011 4:43 pm

Quoting Indy (Reply 33):
AUS, SAT, MSY, JAX, BDL, PIT, STL, SFO, SEA... and just to be funny... BKG . Did I miss any?

And there is a reason these were dropped and it has NOTHING to do with airport management. These routes bleed red ink given fuel prices and the economy.

Quoting Indy (Reply 33):
LAX which isn't even 1x daily on a yearly basis
LAS formerly a top IND destination with 3 carriers on the route now has just 1 and 2 or 3 daily departures
MCO was another huge IND destination with as many as 3 carriers. With FL/WN merger there will be just one and only about 3 daily nonstops
TPA was another popular destination and like MCO will be left with 1 carrier and just 2 daily departures

Notice something these routes all have in common...they are all long, low-yield leisure routes. Again, doesn't work real hot in the current environment.

You seem to be blaming airport management for a lot of things they have no control over. And it's not like IND is alone, plenty of other airports have seen similar declines.
 
gators312
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RE: Is IND About To Emerge From A Long Slump?

Wed Dec 14, 2011 5:05 pm

As he did when he ran JAX, John Clark is most worried about how much he can spend on himself and the executive travel budget, under the guise of expanding airport business.

I don't see him as a visionary in Airport Management, and I think JAX is better off with Grossman in charge.

jmo.
 
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RE: Is IND About To Emerge From A Long Slump?

Wed Dec 14, 2011 5:16 pm

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 35):
These routes bleed red ink given fuel prices and the economy.

That is speculation and in part incorrect. MSY was dropped because of Katrina and never returned. PIT was dropped as part of the US dehubbing. STL failed for a few reasons. When NW had the route they badly overcharged and nobody took the bait and the route ended after just a matter of days. I'm not sure why WN dropped JAX. AUS, SAT, SEA and BDL were victims of circumstance and that being the DL/NW merger.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 35):


Notice something these routes all have in common...they are all long, low-yield leisure routes.

Not exactly. TPA and MCO are notorious for being low yield and even in those cases the fares have gone up quite a bit. IND-LAS is no longer the low fare destination it used to be. I took the family there years ago and we paid something like $170 r/t. If you book a flight in advance and during cheap season you MIGHT get it for under $300. Generally speaking you are looking at close to $400 r/t now. IND-LAX is often priced like that as well. If you want cheap fares there are places to go but LAX and LAS aren't it anymore. Times have changed.
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stlgph
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RE: Is IND About To Emerge From A Long Slump?

Wed Dec 14, 2011 5:29 pm

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 35):
Notice something these routes all have in common...they are all long, low-yield leisure routes. Again, doesn't work real hot in the current environment.

True, however, I fly IND-LGA *a lot* and I've often flown for $175 or less roundtrip.
Of course, that's apples and oranges.

It's not so much IND management's fault that travel trends, in general, have changed, over the past few years.
Tampa and Orlando used to see 1,000 passengers a day or more. The number has dropped ever since Allegiant came into South Bend and Fort Wayne.
Las Vegas used to see 1,000 passenger a day ... the number's dropped with the slumping economy and the number began a gradual decline when Allegiant began South Bend to Las Vegas.
Over the past few years, we've seen a few carriers do Gary to Florida .... now Allegiant is doing Gary to Orlando ... that, too, has affected traffic numbers.

We've simply been seeing travelers getting in their car and driving to other Indiana cities, rather than Indianapolis for all their travel needs.
The demand is there for many cities, or could be there, it's just as airlines are dumping older gas guzzling planes and going with more fuel efficient planes to join their fleet, they're being deployed to their "more important" routes first and foremost.

The service we saw from Indianapolis to Florida in the early to mid 1990's will return, but probably not for a few years.

This all being said, I do find it interesting the number one destination out of Indianapolis, a la faremeasure, is New York LaGuardia at 1,200+ passengers per day ... and the only nonstops are a couple of Delta RJ's.
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Indy
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RE: Is IND About To Emerge From A Long Slump?

Wed Dec 14, 2011 5:52 pm

Quoting stlgph (Reply 38):
This all being said, I do find it interesting the number one destination out of Indianapolis, a la faremeasure, is New York LaGuardia at 1,200+ passengers per day ... and the only nonstops are a couple of Delta RJ's.

That has to be an error. My guess is that it includes JFK and EWR. If you look at IND numbers you won't find anything for EWR or JFK alone.
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Indy
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RE: Is IND About To Emerge From A Long Slump?

Wed Dec 14, 2011 5:57 pm

I wonder if someone here could explain the DL downgrade of IND-SLC from an A320 to a CRJ-900? I've been on that flight a few times recently and it was absolutely packed. It just seems like such an odd downgrade. IND has so little west coast nonstop service. Why would you downgrade your only flight to your western hub to a CRJ-900?
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
FlyPNS1
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RE: Is IND About To Emerge From A Long Slump?

Wed Dec 14, 2011 6:12 pm

Quoting Indy (Reply 37):
MSY was dropped because of Katrina and never returned. PIT was dropped as part of the US dehubbing. STL failed for a few reasons. When NW had the route they badly overcharged and nobody took the bait and the route ended after just a matter of days. I'm not sure why WN dropped JAX. AUS, SAT, SEA and BDL were victims of circumstance and that being the DL/NW merger.

But again, how is that the airport management's fault?

Quoting Indy (Reply 37):
If you book a flight in advance and during cheap season you MIGHT get it for under $300. Generally speaking you are looking at close to $400 r/t now.

$400 for a flight like IND-LAS or IND-LAX is still pretty cheap. Airlines will barely break even on fares that low.

Quoting stlgph (Reply 38):
The demand is there for many cities, or could be there, it's just as airlines are dumping older gas guzzling planes and going with more fuel efficient planes to join their fleet, they're being deployed to their "more important" routes first and foremost.

Not really. Air travel pricing is fundamentally changing. Air travel will be more expensive in the future which means many weaker routes will never return. Higher fuel prices and industry consolidation drive this and there is very little airport managers can do to stop it. The best they can do is try to keep airport operating costs low, but beyond that they are at the mercy of airlines and the economy.
 
stlgph
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RE: Is IND About To Emerge From A Long Slump?

Wed Dec 14, 2011 6:15 pm

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 41):
Not really. Air travel pricing is fundamentally changing. Air travel will be more expensive in the future which means many weaker routes will never return. Higher fuel prices and industry consolidation drive this and there is very little airport managers can do to stop it. The best they can do is try to keep airport operating costs low, but beyond that they are at the mercy of airlines and the economy.

Hrmm...disagree. "Weaker" routes can entirely work under new operational models, a la Spirit Airlines. I suspect the Spirit model will only grow.

there's also the Sun Country model - ancillary pricing and leasing planes in and out of the fleet as needed for peak travel periods.

[Edited 2011-12-14 10:18:21]
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exFWAOONW
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RE: Is IND About To Emerge From A Long Slump?

Thu Dec 15, 2011 2:13 am

Quoting Indy (Reply 33):
AUS, SAT, MSY, JAX, BDL, PIT, STL, SFO, SEA... and just to be funny... BKG . Did I miss any?

Go back a little further when US hubbed Indy, and you might see PVD, BDL, BOS, PHL and a few others like SAN that I can't be sure about.
Is just me, or is flying not as much fun anymore?
 
FWAERJ
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RE: Is IND About To Emerge From A Long Slump?

Thu Dec 15, 2011 7:32 pm

Quoting stlgph (Reply 38):
Tampa and Orlando used to see 1,000 passengers a day or more. The number has dropped ever since Allegiant came into South Bend and Fort Wayne.
Las Vegas used to see 1,000 passenger a day ... the number's dropped with the slumping economy and the number began a gradual decline when Allegiant began South Bend to Las Vegas.

I didn't know about MCO and TPA seeing huge passenger declines after G4 entered FWA/SBN-Florida. However, most SBN leakage is to ORD/MDW, not IND. If you have ever driven US 31 through Kokomo to get to Indy, you'll know what I mean.

Another factor that no one has mentioned was TZ's abrupt exit from IND. TZ was a huge player on IND-MCO/LAS/PIE (they used PIE instead of TPA), and it was said that IND's new terminal plans were started at the request of the former hometown airline.

Quoting exFWAOONW (Reply 43):
Go back a little further when US hubbed Indy, and you might see PVD, BDL, BOS, PHL and a few others like SAN that I can't be sure about.

IND-BOS is still served by DL, and IND-PHL is still served by US.

Quoting Indy (Reply 37):
IND-LAS is no longer the low fare destination it used to be. I took the family there years ago and we paid something like $170 r/t. If you book a flight in advance and during cheap season you MIGHT get it for under $300. Generally speaking you are looking at close to $400 r/t now. IND-LAX is often priced like that as well. If you want cheap fares there are places to go but LAX and LAS aren't it anymore.

At one time, it was far cheaper for folks in Fort Wayne to drive to IND for a flight to LAS or LAX than use FWA. Even with a much smaller fare differential, those habits are still a factor today. Old habits die hard, I suppose.

As of late, I've seen fares from FWA-SNA that are as good as IND-SNA fares. I'm not so sure about LAX, but I almost always use SNA when flying to SoCal anyway.
"Did he really need the triple bypass? Or was it the miles?"
 
stlgph
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RE: Is IND About To Emerge From A Long Slump?

Thu Dec 15, 2011 8:22 pm

Quoting exFWAOONW (Reply 43):
Go back a little further when US hubbed Indy, and you might see PVD, BDL, BOS, PHL and a few others like SAN that I can't be sure about.

around 1992
Jets - Boston, Baltimore, Charlotte, Los Angeles, Las Vegas, Phoenix, New York LaGuardia, Washington National, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, Kansas City, Tampa, San Francisco, Orlando, Miami. there were also the evening departures to Grand Rapids, South Bend, and Evansville on the jets.

Props (everyone would cram out Gate 5) - Waterloo, Nashville, Akron/Canton, Cleveland, Columbus, Champaign, Lexington, Chicago Midway, Fort WAyne, Grand Rapids, Lansing, Milwaukee, Peoria, South Bend, Louisville, St. Louis,
Toledo, Flint, Evansville, Detroit, Decatur, Toronto

Concourse D at the old Indianapolis was a very busy and lively place with a lot of flights packed in 10 gates.

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 44):
I didn't know about MCO and TPA seeing huge passenger declines after G4 entered FWA/SBN-Florida. However, most SBN leakage is to ORD/MDW, not IND. If you have ever driven US 31 through Kokomo to get to Indy, you'll know what I mean.

It's not huge numbers of passenngers, for sure, but folks up in Logansport, Kokomo, etc. etc. all in there - some are now driving to South Bend for their Orlando flights rather than trekking down to Indianapolis.
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TZTriStar500
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RE: Is IND About To Emerge From A Long Slump?

Fri Dec 16, 2011 3:15 am

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 44):
Another factor that no one has mentioned was TZ's abrupt exit from IND. TZ was a huge player on IND-MCO/LAS/PIE (they used PIE instead of TPA), and it was said that IND's new terminal plans were started at the request of the former hometown airline.

There was nothing abrupt about TZ's leaving scheduled service from IND. It took nearly a year to wind down from the short-lived build-up with C8 in 2005 until the last flight to RSW in Jan. 2006. Also, you are completely wrong about TZ being the impetus for the new terminal. George Mikelsons was vehemently opposed to it because of its increased costs and said so publicly.
35 years of American Trans Air/ATA Airlines, 1973-2008. A great little airline that will not be soon forgotten.
 
stlgph
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RE: Is IND About To Emerge From A Long Slump?

Fri Dec 16, 2011 4:27 am

Quoting tztristar500 (Reply 46):

"Indianapolis" (see the quotation marks) simply saw what they did at Midway and thought they could replicate the success, especially with ATA's growth in Chicago. that, obviously, was not the case.


and I still miss ATA. great great *great* airline.
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tommy767
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RE: Is IND About To Emerge From A Long Slump?

Fri Dec 16, 2011 4:32 pm

DL still has a decent presence at Indy. I wouldn't say they 'gutted' the focus city. NW wasn't very successful at mini hubbing IND. For instance, IND-SEA was seasonal. The only major route that DL cut when they merged with NW out of IND was LAS, which hung around for a little while. IIRC, LAX still remains. I flew that route in summer 2010 and there wasn't an empty seat (but my upgrade cleared.)

Quoting FWAERJ (Thread starter):
- The IAA continues to seek service to SFO, and if a recent route map leak by UA proves true, IND just might get it.

I was the OP on that thread and it unfortunately seems like it's not going to happen. Although a great flight for a 73G if you ask me.
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MaverickM11
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RE: Is IND About To Emerge From A Long Slump?

Fri Dec 16, 2011 4:48 pm

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 41):
But again, how is that the airport management's fault?
Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 35):
You seem to be blaming airport management for a lot of things they have no control over. And it's not like IND is alone, plenty of other airports have seen similar declines.

What assumptions was IND management using when they supported the new terminal? I just don't see how that ever made sense under the most optimistic of assumptions?
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