4engines4lnghll
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Why Aren't There More European Routes From DFW?

Mon Dec 12, 2011 4:55 am

I know AA has some European destinations from dfw along with klm, lufthansa, and british airways, but these other airlines like Swiss, Alitalia, SAS, Finnair, Condor,AirBerlin, etc. Wouldn't they make good money on routes that aren't even served from DFW .
Does anyone know of any airlines eyeing DFW?

[Edited 2011-12-11 20:57:10]

[Edited 2011-12-11 20:57:56]
4engines4lnghll
 
LAXdude1023
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Why Aren't There More European Routes From DFW?

Mon Dec 12, 2011 5:11 am

No, I dont think any of those would make much money in DFW.

Basically, given connections and O&D DFW can support between 7-9 flights a day to Europe depending on the season. Bear in mind, that includes connections on the DFW end.

The local markets which it would have no problem supporting with some connections on the Europe end and none on the DFW end are limited to London, Paris, and Frankfurt. By the time you throw in connections on the DFW end, One World markets like Madrid become viable. By the time you throw in India, that adds for more Y capacity to LHR, AMS and FRA. The DFW-India market is huge, but not very high yielding. For that, we have EK coming in Feb.

The local markets of the airlines mention wouldnt be able to support a flight to DFW. HEL is a OneWorld hub, and there is some tech/telecom traffic, but nowhere near enough for a flight here. AZ would be a nonstarter as the local market isnt big and there are no alliance connections. ZRH is a very small local market from DFW and wouldnt be able to make it work.

Im a huge DFW fan, but I try to look at things realistically. Realistically, as long as DFW has direct flights to London, Paris, and Frankfurt, and at least 5 flights a day to Europe, the local market (O&D) is pretty well covered.

[Edited 2011-12-11 21:12:02]

[Edited 2011-12-11 21:12:27]
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texan
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Why Aren't There More European Routes From DFW?

Mon Dec 12, 2011 5:18 am

AF used to serve DFW nonstop and AA used to serve ZRH while SN served BRU. The AF flights failed, SN went bust, and ZRH left when Swiss and AA ended their codeshare. DFW is well connected to Europe right now with up to 9 or 10 daily nonstops during summer while serving the major business destinations (if I am counting right: 4 LHR, 2 FRA, 1 each to MAD, AMS, CDG). The airlines you mentioned have either a) no alliance partner to help make the route profitable; or b) have hubs in cities with little local or even continuing demand. I would love for DFW to get some more international airlines, but Europe is well covered right now and the carriers not serving DFW have better market opportunities elsewhere.

Texan

[Edited 2011-12-11 21:20:07]
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blueflyer
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RE: Why Aren't There More European Routes From DFW?

Mon Dec 12, 2011 9:55 am

Quoting 4engines4lnghll (Thread starter):
Wouldn't they make good money on routes that aren't even served from DFW .

Alliances are key at DFW, and these airlines are in the wrong one. Since AA and BA got the sign off on their joint venture, LH has gone from an A340 to an A330 and is now down to 6x weekly. I expect that KL will give up on DFW soon because it has no feed, hasn't been around as long as LH to build a customer base and will lose much of the Far-East and Middle-East connecting traffic to EK.

Not the most encouraging environment for new entrants.

Air Berlin might try a BER-DFW after its admission into Oneworld, but even then they may very well wait until 2014 and their 787. I think their A330 is too much aircraft for the route (80-some more seats than LH's A330).

Another long(er) shot is BCN-DFW on IB, if (when?) MAD-DFW reaches capacity. I don't have inside knowledge, but I would guess we're very far off from that point because many of the cheapest trips from DFW to Europe are routed through MAD, not the sign of a big hitter yield-wise.
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LTU330
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RE: Why Aren't There More European Routes From DFW?

Mon Dec 12, 2011 10:22 am

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 3):
Air Berlin might try a BER-DFW after its admission into Oneworld, but even then they may very well wait until 2014 and their 787. I think their A330 is too much aircraft for the route (80-some more seats than LH's A330).

Unlikely. It is still hard to understand why Air Berlin are even starting more Longhaul from Berlin. There is no high yield demand from there. Dusseldorf and to a certain extent Munich maybe. If you try to use a Berlin to Dallas flight for feeding the large American Airlines structure, you are effectively going to be forcing people to take an internal flight first to Berlin and then change planes in Dallas. Three sectors is not what people want. Personally, I think this obsession with Berlin could be another nail in the coffin for Air Berlin. I hope to God not, but there simply is not the demand in the Berlin area to justify so many additional routes especially as Lufthansa are going to become a very large operator there. Air Berlin should really concetrate on Dusseldorf and Munich and forget the "Berlin" part of the name. It is just a name after all. Much like British Airways could or should be called London Airways.
 
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RE: Why Aren't There More European Routes From DFW?

Mon Dec 12, 2011 10:24 am

Quoting 4engines4lnghll (Thread starter):
Wouldn't they make good money on routes that aren't even served from DFW .

If DFW was on the East Coast, then yes they probably would. Located where it is, there's the issue of ATL, ORD, DTW, PHL and EWR being in the same general eastwards direction. This is exactly why MAN and LAX aren't linked, by the time transfer passengers are taken out of the equation, at a myriad of different US and EU hubs, it renders a direct flight unworkable.
 
mainMAN
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RE: Why Aren't There More European Routes From DFW?

Mon Dec 12, 2011 10:36 am

Quoting LTU330 (Reply 4):
Unlikely. It is still hard to understand why Air Berlin are even starting more Longhaul from Berlin. There is no high yield demand from there

True. Bangkok, Dubai, Los Angeles, Miami, Mombasa and New York are about as much long haul as Berlin can support by a 'home' airline. I'd imagine the BER once opened will attract greater numbers of Western Poles too.
 
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gdg9
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RE: Why Aren't There More European Routes From DFW?

Mon Dec 12, 2011 1:19 pm

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 3):
I expect that KL will give up on DFW soon because it has no feed

Don't forget KLM already suspended DFW service for the Winter schedule. It is listed, which was a surprise to me, as coming back with the Summer schedule on March 25 though. From what I know and have read, the route hasn't been a stellar performer since its inception in 2008, but it did limp along at least until this past October.
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IrishAyes
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RE: Why Aren't There More European Routes From DFW?

Mon Dec 12, 2011 3:08 pm

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 3):
LH has gone from an A340 to an A330

This doesn't actually represent much of a capacity downgrade. The A330 just has a better cabin configuration appropriate for the traffic DFW sends to Frankfurt and beyond. Also, it is back to daily in S12.

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 3):
Another long(er) shot is BCN-DFW on IB, if (when?) MAD-DFW reaches capacity. I don't have inside knowledge, but I would guess we're very far off from that point because many of the cheapest trips from DFW to Europe are routed through MAD, not the sign of a big hitter yield-wise.

A long shot that will likely not materialize. BCN is not only very seasonal and low-yielding, but it is not a OneWorld hub. The IB network is at Madrid, not Barcelona, so there is really no purpose for a DFW-BCN nonstop.

Quoting gdg9 (Reply 7):
Don't forget KLM already suspended DFW service for the Winter schedule. It is listed, which was a surprise to me, as coming back with the Summer schedule on March 25 though. From what I know and have read, the route hasn't been a stellar performer since its inception in 2008, but it did limp along at least until this past October.

I was also surprised (albeit happy) that KLM announced it would return for S12 given that EK is starting nonstop flights in February. Next summer will be the "litmus test" for KLM at DFW.
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