PRFlyer
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Queenair Crash Caught On Tape

Mon Dec 12, 2011 2:19 pm

A Beechcraft 65-80 Queen Air crashed after takeoff on December 10, 2011 into the Felixberto Serrano Elementary School near Manila, killing at least 14 people including the three crew members onboard the aircraft, and injuring over 20 people. Fortunately, it was the weekend and there was no school.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqmomTUVsAw
 
n6238p
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RE: Queenair Crash Caught On Tape

Mon Dec 12, 2011 2:30 pm

What an awful video but this is something every multi-engine student needs to see.
To actively root against anybody is just low, and I hope karma comes back at you with a vengeance
 
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chrisnh
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RE: Queenair Crash Caught On Tape

Mon Dec 12, 2011 2:32 pm

Was this a stall? It is horrifying to watch. The plane looked to be going way too slow.
 
DashTrash
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RE: Queenair Crash Caught On Tape

Mon Dec 12, 2011 2:39 pm

Quoting chrisnh (Reply 2):

It appears they lost the left engine and went below Vmc. Not stalled, but too slow to maintain directional control with a failed engine.
 
26point2
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RE: Queenair Crash Caught On Tape

Mon Dec 12, 2011 4:05 pm

Multi Engine flight training 101. Never fly below VMC.

VMC is clearly marked with a red line on the airspeed indicator. Unfortunately this is a common accident for a pilot with an engine failure in a heavy and underpowered aircraft and inadequate experience or training to cope.
 
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Coal
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RE: Queenair Crash Caught On Tape

Tue Dec 13, 2011 11:22 am

Horrible video. I would recommend NOT to click on the link. Quite disturbing, to me anyway.

Was there anything he could've done to prevent this? Assuming one engine was still OK?

Cheers
Coal
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xdlx
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RE: Queenair Crash Caught On Tape

Tue Dec 13, 2011 11:32 am

Quoting 26point2 (Reply 4):

VMC is a BLUE line..... not red!
 
gkyip
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RE: Queenair Crash Caught On Tape

Tue Dec 13, 2011 11:47 am

Quoting xdlx (Reply 6):
VMC is a BLUE line..... not red!

Blue line tends to indicate Vyse (best rate of climb, single engine). Sticking accurately to this speed ensures a safe margin above Vmc as well as getting the best performance out of the single engine situation.

Chilling video. Shows too well the hazards of light twin flying and how thigns can happen so quickly.

Rgds,
Gary
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jetfuel
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RE: Queenair Crash Caught On Tape

Tue Dec 13, 2011 11:58 am

Vmc is a lot lower than Vyse. How the pilot couldn't focus on critical airspeed is beyond me. Its drilled in to you. Its not like he was so 20 feet above the ground and visibility was good .Very Sad for everybody involved
Where's the passion gone out of the airline industry? The smell of jetfuel and the romance of taking a flight....
 
n6238p
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RE: Queenair Crash Caught On Tape

Tue Dec 13, 2011 12:43 pm

Looks to me like he over banked when he started his turn, and we all know what happens to Vmc when doing that.
To actively root against anybody is just low, and I hope karma comes back at you with a vengeance
 
71Zulu
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RE: Queenair Crash Caught On Tape

Tue Dec 13, 2011 12:53 pm

Shouldn't turn into the dead engine either right?
Clickable links only please!
 
a380900
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RE: Queenair Crash Caught On Tape

Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:09 pm

My god!!! I'm a little versed in the debate between single engine and twin engine for aircraft the size of a Pilatus PC12 for instance and let me just say this video makes the "you're as safe losing your one engine as losing one of the two" more understandable. I think it shows in statistics too.

Scary and awful video. For one, I never knew an airplane could go from steady flight to crash so quickly. I think I just understood what a stall was. I thought that the plane would just fall down to the ground with levelled wings...
 
gulfstream650
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RE: Queenair Crash Caught On Tape

Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:22 pm

I really think that was a stall which turned into a spin.

I'm not a multi-engine pilot - just single.
I don't proclaim to be the best pilot in the world but I'm safe
 
FlyHossD
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RE: Queenair Crash Caught On Tape

Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:31 pm

Quoting N6238P (Reply 9):
Looks to me like he over banked when he started his turn, and we all know what happens to Vmc when doing that.
Quoting DashTrash (Reply 3):
It appears they lost the left engine and went below Vmc. Not stalled, but too slow to maintain directional control with a failed engine.

  

Quoting N6238P (Reply 9):
Looks to me like he over banked when he started his turn, and we all know what happens to Vmc when doing that.

I believe DashTrash has it right; this is a Vmc accident. The bank is the loss of control from going below Vmc.
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
26point2
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RE: Queenair Crash Caught On Tape

Tue Dec 13, 2011 3:20 pm

Quoting xdlx (Reply 6):
VMC is a BLUE line..... not red!

....ummm no. Total fail. Blue line is VYSE, much different than VMC. VMC is Red for a reason. Bad if you fly slower than VMC.
 
airnorth
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RE: Queenair Crash Caught On Tape

Wed Dec 14, 2011 7:16 am

Since I am a non-pilot, just an enthusiast, would it be possible to explain the acronyms VMC, and VYSE?
I assume VMC a minimum speed to allow the plane to fly in a controlled manner without the engine power "torquing" the plane?
Thanks!
 
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RE: Queenair Crash Caught On Tape

Wed Dec 14, 2011 7:23 am

VMC is the speed at which the aircraft can safely fly on one engine. VYSE is the best single engine rate of climb speed.
For those who don't know it, when you make a turn, your stall speed increases. So you could be proceeding back to the airport in level flight(above stall speed), but go into a turn without checking the airspeed first and you may end up like the guy in this video.
Fly North Central Airlines..The route of the Northliners!
 
DashTrash
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RE: Queenair Crash Caught On Tape

Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:58 pm

Quoting a380900 (Reply 11):
My god!!! I'm a little versed in the debate between single engine and twin engine for aircraft the size of a Pilatus PC12 for instance and let me just say this video makes the "you're as safe losing your one engine as losing one of the two" more understandable. I think it shows in statistics too.

I don't agree. I can't argue with the statistics, but those statistics take into account all operations. I firmly believe that a twin flown by a properly trained, proficient, and experienced pilot is much safer than a single engine aircraft. The statistics are skewed by undertrained, inexperienced pilots flying underpowered aircraft. Any of those 3 + engine failure = increased likelihood of an accident.

It was explained earlier, but Vmc = minimum controllable airspeed. It is the minimum speed at which you have enough rudder authority to maintain directional control of the aircraft in single engine operations. Rudder authority increases as airflow increases around it (airspeed).
 
khpn
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RE: Queenair Crash Caught On Tape

Wed Dec 14, 2011 2:05 pm

As terrible as videos like this are, the best lessons we as pilots can learn is from the mistakes of the past.

This video is chilling to say the least.

Reminds me of when I saw this happen
http://www.myfoxny.com/dpp/news/smal...sh-in-dutchess-county-20110628-lgf

Although I am only single engine rated I can agree with the posts above, when you lose your (an) engine...

A-AIRSPEED
B-Best place to land
C- Checklist

AIRSPEED FIRST!! I have to agree that it sure looks like he went below VMC and then turned, possibly into the dead engine at that... its all a recipie for exactly what happened.

Regardless, RIP to all.
 
26point2
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RE: Queenair Crash Caught On Tape

Wed Dec 14, 2011 2:50 pm

In underpowered twins, such this heavy Queen Air, the engine failure only prolongs the inevitable....you will crash. Up to the pilot to determine whether it will be a "controlled crash" (forced landing,) or an uncontrolled one like this. Turning back to the airport is a very bad idea as we see although not the last bad idea this pilot had. Turning into the dead engine was..

As horrible as it is, one day this video will make a good training tool for multi-engine pilot trainees.
 
wannabe
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RE: Queenair Crash Caught On Tape

Wed Dec 14, 2011 3:03 pm

Quoting DashTrash (Reply 3):
appears they lost the left engine and went below Vmc. Not stalled, but too slow to maintain directional control with a failed engine.

Was there any validation to this comment. It seems to me that the left engine is still turning as the plane starts the spiral. It could be turning slower...cannot tell if both props appear to be spinning at the same rate, but other than the comment made, I don't see any indication that the engine has failed. Is there something in the comments (which I cannot understand) which validate this comment?
 
khpn
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RE: Queenair Crash Caught On Tape

Wed Dec 14, 2011 3:07 pm

Quoting wannabe (Reply 20):
It seems to me that the left engine is still turning as the plane starts the spiral. It could be turning slower...cannot tell if both props appear to be spinning at the same rate

I can't say for certain which engine was lost..
However, even when prop driven engines do fail, the propeller often will continue to spin due to the air still flowing over the blades.
 
rcair1
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RE: Queenair Crash Caught On Tape

Wed Dec 14, 2011 3:33 pm

Quoting airnorth (Reply 15):

Since I am a non-pilot, just an enthusiast, would it be possible to explain the acronyms VMC, and VYSE?

Vmc = Velocity Minimum Controllable.
In simple terms - This is the speed where the differential thrust between the failed and operating side engines will overwhelm the control surfaces ability to maintain control of the aircraft. In other words - the engine that is running is 'pulling' hard on one side of the aircraft - which causes the aircraft to yaw into the dead engine. You counter that with rudder input. But, if you are too slow, your rudder does not have enough authority to counter the force, and the aircraft becomes uncontrollable. I think there may be some twins where you run out of aileron first, (the operating side is creating more lift due to prop wash over the wing) but I don't really know. What a particular twin will do under Vmse depends on a lot of things, attitude, altitude, etc, but it simply stated, you cannot control the aircraft. A few years ago a twin out of Fort Collins Loveland airport suffered a failure like this and went into a flat spin. It was IFR and witnesses described the sound of an aircraft engine "warbeling". What they were hearing was the change of sound of the operating engine as the aircraft rotated about its vertical axis while falling. It came out of the clouds in a flat spin - impacted relatively flat, but spinning around.
BTW - an inline trust twin, like a Cessna Skymaster, does not have a Vmc, only a Vyse or Vxse. That is because the thrust is in line with the drag of the aircraft. (I wonder, does a Skymaster have a different Vyse or Vxse for front verses rear engine?) This is why a multi-engine certification that was earned in a centerline thrust twin will have a "Centerline Thrust Only" limitation.

Vyse: The speed that provides the maximum vertical rate of gn a light twin when one engine has failed.
This is the speed at which you will gain the maximum vertical distance per unit of time. Use this to get to an altitude as quickly as possible. Compare to Vxse which is the maximum angle of climb - the most vertical gain per forward distance. Use this if you are trying to climb over an obstacle you are approaching.
rcair1
 
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RE: Queenair Crash Caught On Tape

Thu Dec 15, 2011 4:59 am

And then you have a plane like Piper's old twin Commanche. It had counter-rotating props to add to the fun. For awhile the FAA prohibited examiners from giving multi check rides in the plane. It had a bad reputation for flat spinning. But Piper raised the single engine stall speed and the problems with the design seemed to go away.
Fly North Central Airlines..The route of the Northliners!
 
727forever
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RE: Queenair Crash Caught On Tape

Thu Dec 15, 2011 5:32 am

Definitely a loss of control due to flight at an airspeed below vmc. Any multi pilot has done a vmc demo at altitude to see the result of allowing airspeed to drop below Vmc or redline. This is exactly what happened to this Queen Air. The difference in training is that it is done at an altitude of around 4,000' agl and the instructor has his hand on the good engine throttle ready to pull it to idle as soon as the airplane breaks into the turn. In the demo it will be just this violent but pulling the throttle back will stop the roll allowing for recovery.

In this accident it is apparent that the aircraft is flying very slow. The ground speed, nose up pitch, sound of the straining good engine, and the fact that a pitch correction happens just prior to the loss of controll all point to a speed at Vmc. If you look closely at the left prop it is still rotating but at a much slower speed than the right. This is because it has failed but has not been feathered. The queen air has very poor single engine performance if flown properly but with the critical engine failed and not feathered is unflyable. The airspeed will decay to the point of impact. Additionally, listen to the sound. Only one engine is making power as there is no sound of non synched engines.

727forever
727forever
 
Flaps
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RE: Queenair Crash Caught On Tape

Thu Dec 15, 2011 5:54 am

Quoting 727forever (Reply 24):
If you look closely at the left prop it is still rotating but at a much slower speed than the right. This is because it has failed but has not been feathered. The queen air has very poor single engine performance if flown properly but with the critical engine failed and not feathered is unflyable.

Dead on. A classic case of VMC Rollover. A must see video for any multi engine student. Note how gradually the initial roll to the left began and then how suddenly it steepened. That pilot had a about one second from the onset of that gradual start of the rollover to cut power to the good engine and get the nose down. That just isn't enough time. A perfect illustration off how critical it is to manage airspeed, especially in a light twin. Without the prop being feathered he was going down one way or the other. Only two options available, a controlled crash straight ahead or what we witness in the video. .