747fan
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American Eagle New Route: ORD-YKF

Tue Dec 13, 2011 6:12 pm

Here's another new Eagle market out of ORD. Interesting.

American Eagle Airlines Announces New Jet Service From Chicago O'Hare to Kitchener, Ontario

Daily Nonstops Begin June 14

FORT WORTH, Texas, Dec. 13, 2011 /PRNewswire/ -- American Eagle, the regional affiliate of American Airlines, today announced daily round-trip flights between Chicago O'Hare International Airport and the Region of Waterloo International Airport in Kitchener, Ontario, Canada. Eagle will operate the new service with 50-seat Embraer jets, beginning June 14, 2012.

"We're pleased to introduce new service to Kitchener from our cornerstone hub in Chicago," said Gary Foss, Managing Director – Network Planning for American Airlines. "This schedule will allow customers from the Waterloo Region to make a day trip to Chicago for business or connect through this key international gateway to destinations throughout the American Airlines and oneworld® global network."

"We are thrilled that American Airlines is coming to the Waterloo Region," said Ken Seiling, Waterloo Regional Chair. "We believe this service will make flying more convenient for everyone and will also have the added benefit of encouraging investment and jobs in our community."

"Daily jet service to Chicago is what our business community asked us for, and we are pleased to be here today announcing just that," said Chris Wood, Airport General Manager at the Region of Waterloo International Airport. "There are almost 800,000 passengers a year traveling between Waterloo Region and the United States who will now be able to fly through Chicago to cities like San Diego, Salt Lake City and San Antonio, while enjoying the convenience of flying from home."

Here is the schedule (all times local):

Chicago O'Hare to Kitchener




Flight
Departs
Arrives
Frequency
4161
1:20 p.m.
3:55 p.m.
Daily
4211
7:50 p.m.
10:15 p.m.
Daily, Except Sat.




Kitchener to Chicago O'Hare




Flight
Departs
Arrives
Frequency
4210*
6:30 a.m.
6:55 a.m.
Daily
4153
4:40 p.m.
5:15 p.m.
Daily, Except Sat.

* Flight begins June 15, 2012
 
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yyz717
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RE: American Eagle New Route: ORD-YKF

Tue Dec 13, 2011 6:18 pm

Surprised in a way that AA picked Kitchener and not Hamilton.

For those not fam with YKF, WS flies a daily 73G to YYC. NWLink operated 3x daily S340 to DTW but pulled the route a couple of years ago.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: American Eagle New Route: ORD-YKF

Tue Dec 13, 2011 8:01 pm

Interesting.

This was one of the first routes to get slashed by NW before they really even started to pull-down the Saab fleet.

The segment cost of DTW-YKF on a turbopropris much less than RJs on ORD-YKF.
Perhaps is will be more popular though.

The cost of flying trans-border is pretty steep, hence the leakage over to places like BUF or DTW for passengers looking to go to/from the United States.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: American Eagle New Route: ORD-YKF

Tue Dec 13, 2011 8:05 pm

Quoting DTW.SCE" class="quote" target="_blank">PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 2):
The segment cost of DTW-YKF on a turbopropris much less than RJs on ORD-YKF.
Perhaps is will be more popular though.

OTOH, though, there can't be much of a local market on DTW-YKF.
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PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: American Eagle New Route: ORD-YKF

Tue Dec 13, 2011 8:09 pm

Very true.

There is a lot of business ties between the Detroit-area and the Waterloo/Kitchner area because of the auto industry, it is an ~3 hour drive, depending on delays at the border and horrid truck traffic on the 401.
 
connies4ever
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RE: American Eagle New Route: ORD-YKF

Tue Dec 13, 2011 8:13 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 3):
OTOH, though, there can't be much of a local market on DTW-YKF.

I have to think this route will stand or fall based on cnx over ORD to LAX/SFO/SAN etc, also HKG/NRT/PEK. Anything to avoid connecting over YYZ.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: American Eagle New Route: ORD-YKF

Tue Dec 13, 2011 8:16 pm

Does YFK have pre-clearance?
 
WA707atMSP
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RE: American Eagle New Route: ORD-YKF

Tue Dec 13, 2011 8:16 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 3):
Quoting DTW.SCE" class="quote" target="_blank">PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 2):
The segment cost of DTW-YKF on a turbopropris much less than RJs on ORD-YKF.
Perhaps is will be more popular though.

OTOH, though, there can't be much of a local market on DTW-YKF.

I believe the main reason NW flew DTW-YKF was for Toyota employees / suppliers coming from Nagoya to Toyota's plant in Cambridge, Ontario.

I don't think either AA or JL flies ORD-NGO, so it would be interesting to know what traffic AA is targeting.
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Cubsrule
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RE: American Eagle New Route: ORD-YKF

Tue Dec 13, 2011 8:20 pm

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 7):
I believe the main reason NW flew DTW-YKF was for Toyota employees / suppliers coming from Nagoya to Toyota's plant in Cambridge, Ontario.

With one daily flight to NGO, how could that traffic possibly support multiple daily flights to YKF?

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 7):
I don't think either AA or JL flies ORD-NGO, so it would be interesting to know what traffic AA is targeting.

No, but they will need to start it if they have hopes of picking up the Toyota contract (that was the primary reason UA flew SFO-NGO for a while).
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
connies4ever
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RE: American Eagle New Route: ORD-YKF

Tue Dec 13, 2011 8:21 pm

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 6):
Does YFK have pre-clearance?

Pretty certain the answer is no. Not nearly enough trans-border traffic, in fact this might be the only trans-border route at the moment.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
WestJet747
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RE: American Eagle New Route: ORD-YKF

Tue Dec 13, 2011 8:46 pm

I personally don't think that AA entirely believes there is defined and sustainable market for YKF travelers to ORD as a destination. From a business perspective, there are very few economic ties between KW and Chicago. But I do think this is a decent move by AA with respect to transiting pax.

I live and work literally down the road from YKF so I'll give this service a shot for a weekend when it starts up. If I like what I see I'll consider using it to connect to further U.S. destinations as opposed to paying obscene parking fares at YYZ.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 1):
Surprised in a way that AA picked Kitchener and not Hamilton.

I would assume they are targeting the tech and auto sector dollars.

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 7):
I believe the main reason NW flew DTW-YKF was for Toyota employees / suppliers coming from Nagoya to Toyota's plant in Cambridge, Ontario.

I believe the Toyota plant was secondary. Up until a few years ago Kitchener had massive auto-parts plants like Budd Canada (and others I can't name off-hand) that supplied the Big 3 in DTW. Those businesses went belly-up and NWLink quickly pulled out.

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 9):
Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 6):
Does YFK have pre-clearance?

Pretty certain the answer is no. Not nearly enough trans-border traffic, in fact this might be the only trans-border route at the moment.

That answer is definitely no, and neither does YHM. YKF is as basic an international airport as you will ever see. This route will be the only scheduled trans-border traffic for the airport apart from the occasional Sunwing flight to Mexico.
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haggisman
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RE: American Eagle New Route: ORD-YKF

Tue Dec 13, 2011 8:49 pm

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 9):
Quoting connies4ever (Reply 9):
Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 6):
Does YFK have pre-clearance?

Pretty certain the answer is no. Not nearly enough trans-border traffic, in fact this might be the only trans-border route at the moment.

I doubt it too. When I lived in Guelph (just up the road), I used YKF frequently, and the "International Arrivals/Departures" hall was just a tiny doorway off to the side. It is now a bigger door with frosted glass, but what lies behind is still very small. There is a Canada Customs office there (for obvious reasons), but no pre-clearance as far as I know.

I have no idea if this is going to create a building boom in the terminal, but I somehow doubt it.  

YKF is a great little airport, beats the hell out of driving to the insanity that is YYZ. And yes - the community provides an astonishing amount of support - the YKF - YYC flights I have been are quite full most times - Westjet usually have a 737-700 on that route and once in a while downsize to a -600


Scotty
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nomorerjs
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RE: American Eagle New Route: ORD-YKF

Tue Dec 13, 2011 8:50 pm

Could Eagle be getting some type of subsidy from the city or Ontario for this route?

YKF is not a pre-clearance airport. Here is a link to the lisk of pre-clearance airports:

http://www.cbp.gov/xp/cgov/toolbox/contacts/preclear_locations.xml (Canada pre-clearance: Calgary, Edmonton, Halifax, Montreal, Ottawa, Toronto, Vancouver, Winnipeg, Victoria). RJs from Canada are seen at T5 at ORD from Reginia, Quebec City, and London).

It would be interesting to see how this route works. Could Hamilton, North Bay, Thunder Bay, Timmins, Toronto City, Tremblant, and other airports within 2 hours of ORD see future service?
 
WestJet747
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RE: American Eagle New Route: ORD-YKF

Tue Dec 13, 2011 9:00 pm

Quoting nomorerjs (Reply 12):
It would be interesting to see how this route works. Could Hamilton, North Bay, Thunder Bay, Timmins, Toronto City, Tremblant, and other airports within 2 hours of ORD see future service?

Hamilton - Not if there is service to YKF. It's only a 45-minute drive between the airports.
North Bay - Doubt the market is big enough.
Thunder Bay - Maybe, but it would be risky.
Timmins - Same boat as North Bay.
Toronto City - PD already flies to MDW.
Tremblant - Not a chance. The seasonal market is marginal at best. You're better off connecting in YTZ with PD from MDW.
Flying refined.
 
nomorerjs
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RE: American Eagle New Route: ORD-YKF

Tue Dec 13, 2011 9:03 pm

I think Toronto City to ORD would do well. The money in Chicago is closer to ORD, and many more connections.
 
WestJet747
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RE: American Eagle New Route: ORD-YKF

Tue Dec 13, 2011 9:13 pm

Quoting nomorerjs (Reply 14):
I think Toronto City to ORD would do well. The money in Chicago is closer to ORD, and many more connections.

PD's target market is business travelers. MDW is slightly closer to Chicago's financial district, and cheaper for them to fly to as well.

Also, all slots at YTZ have been allocated to PD and AC. So AA has no chance of getting in there.

Quoting nomorerjs (Reply 12):
Could Eagle be getting some type of subsidy from the city or Ontario for this route?

I doubt it. Waterloo Region isn't desperate for this service. The economy here is doing quite well.
Flying refined.
 
nomorerjs
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RE: American Eagle New Route: ORD-YKF

Tue Dec 13, 2011 9:15 pm

Thanks for the info! I've only been to YYZ and YUL and am not that familiar with the Waterloo region. Glad to hear the economy is doing well and I hope this route does well!
 
WA707atMSP
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RE: American Eagle New Route: ORD-YKF

Tue Dec 13, 2011 9:17 pm

Quoting nomorerjs (Reply 14):
I think Toronto City to ORD would do well. The money in Chicago is closer to ORD, and many more connections.

Does AA Eagle have any aircraft that are allowed to fly into Toronto City? I didn't think RJs were allowed there.
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RJLover
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RE: American Eagle New Route: ORD-YKF

Tue Dec 13, 2011 9:18 pm

Quoting nomorerjs (Reply 12):
http://www.cbp.gov/xp/cgov/toolbox/contacts/preclear_locations.xml (Canada pre-clearance: Calgary, Edmonton, Halifax, Montreal, Ottawa, Toronto, Vancouver, Winnipeg, Victoria). RJs from Canada are seen at T5 at ORD from Reginia, Quebec City, and London).

The "Victoria" pre-clearance is ONLY for the passengers departing on the Coho (Black Ball) ferry to Port Angeles, Washington (and even then, I think it is only the Customs half [you do Immigration in Port Angeles]).

YYJ has no customs pre-clearance available.
Last Flight(s): YYJ-YVR-YYZ-YHZ Next Flight(s):
 
Cubsrule
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RE: American Eagle New Route: ORD-YKF

Tue Dec 13, 2011 9:22 pm

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 15):
PD's target market is business travelers. MDW is slightly closer to Chicago's financial district,

But many - perhaps most - business travelers aren't going downtown, and few are going to suburban areas that are markedly closer to MDW than to ORD.

PD is in MDW for two reasons:

1) Airfield congestion/slots

2) FIS congestion. PD can park an airplane on an international gate at MDW whenever it likes. That's simply not true for large parts of the day at ORD.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
nomorerjs
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RE: American Eagle New Route: ORD-YKF

Tue Dec 13, 2011 9:28 pm

On another topic related to trans-border traffic, will WestJet ever serve Chicago (ORD or MDW) or DFW?
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: American Eagle New Route: ORD-YKF

Tue Dec 13, 2011 10:21 pm

Thus without pre-clearance, it means this flight will arrive in ORD at T-5, correct?
Not the greatest of connections, but we'll see.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 10):
I believe the Toyota plant was secondary. Up until a few years ago Kitchener had massive auto-parts plants like Budd Canada (and others I can't name off-hand) that supplied the Big 3 in DTW. Those businesses went belly-up and NWLink quickly pulled out.

I think that going back to the previous point, there likely was not much local (automotive business traffic) on DTW-YFK because it simply does not make sense to fly versus drive.

I can see that when the local economy got hammered it rendered the flight uneconomical, plus the run-up in fuel prices, plus now the retirement of the Saab fleet.

Again, the issue of international taxes comes into play. One can drive to BUF or DTW and save a significant amount by avoiding all of the international taxes and fees.

Quoting nomorerjs (Reply 12):
It would be interesting to see how this route works. Could Hamilton, North Bay, Thunder Bay, Timmins, Toronto City, Tremblant, and other airports within 2 hours of ORD see future service?

NW used to fly MSP-Thunder Bay, but that was dropped with DL phased-out the Saab fleet and the route could not support RJ service. Most of those cities are long and thin for RJ service.

Honestly I think that ORD-YKF is pretty thin, but we will give it the benefit of the doubt. Considering how AA has challenges on making much larger markets out of ORD work, we'll see.
 
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yyz717
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RE: American Eagle New Route: ORD-YKF

Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:31 am

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 5):
I have to think this route will stand or fall based on cnx over ORD to LAX/SFO/SAN etc, also HKG/NRT/PEK. Anything to avoid connecting over YYZ.

Agreed. This route will serve as a US gateway for the KW market.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 15):
Also, all slots at YTZ have been allocated to PD and AC. So AA has no chance of getting in there.

AA would need turboprop equipment to fly into YTZ. That is all that's permitted.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
SurfandSnow
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RE: American Eagle New Route: ORD-YKF

Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:21 am

Very interesting, and quite unexpected! If anyone was to try this route I would have expected UA, which has been rapidly expanding its Canadian network in recent years. AA hasn't added a new Canadian market in a very long time, and all of their Canadian stations are (or were, i.e. YWG, YQB) considerably larger and more prominent than this one! Not to mention the future of Eagle - involving the aircraft due to fly this route - and even the carrier's entire ORD hub repeatedly called into question.

This is yet another sign that AA's ORD hub is indeed safe and sound. It seems AA will be mimicking F9's DEN strategy - slashing redundant capacity on highly competitive trunk routes (i.e. EWR, PHL, FRA, ATL, BRU, PDX, YYZ, DEN), while pushing into small markets that the competition (in this case WN and UA) has overlooked. The newest additions from ORD, such as HEL, ILM, CHO, ART, and now the likes of ALO, SUX, and YKF, would seem to confirm this. If F9's fortunes are any indication, this may be the only way that AA can retain a viable ORD hub...
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emiratesa345
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RE: American Eagle New Route: ORD-YKF

Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:45 am

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 15):
I doubt it. Waterloo Region isn't desperate for this service. The economy here is doing quite well

The economy in Waterloo Region doing quite well might be a bit of an overstatement. Manufacturing businesses have been closing up shop at an alarming rate. It seems like everytime you open up a regional newspaper, there are reports of factories moving their operations south, closing up entirely or laying off workers.

In any event, I wish American good luck. At minimum it'll make spotting more interesting at YKF.

-Mark
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MAH4546
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RE: American Eagle New Route: ORD-YKF

Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:47 am

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 21):
Honestly I think that ORD-YKF is pretty thin, but we will give it the benefit of the doubt. Considering how AA has challenges on making much larger markets out of ORD work, we'll see.

It has a harder time on more competitive routes because of its cost structure. But AA has done very well on less competitive markets launched over the past two years from DFW, ORD, LAX and MIA; markets like Rapid City, Sioux Falls, Gainesville, Santa Fe and Manhattan.

Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 23):
and even the carrier's entire ORD hub repeatedly called into question.

It's only called into question by A.net "experts." ORD has a very healthy future as an AA hub.
a.
 
WestJet747
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RE: American Eagle New Route: ORD-YKF

Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:55 am

Quoting EmiratesA345 (Reply 24):
The economy in Waterloo Region doing quite well might be a bit of an overstatement. Manufacturing businesses have been closing up shop at an alarming rate. It seems like everytime you open up a regional newspaper, there are reports of factories moving their operations south, closing up entirely or laying off workers.

Your assertion may be correct, but for every factory that moves to Mexico there is a new tech company setting up shop in Waterloo. Over the past few years there has been an amazing shift in the local economy towards the tech sector, bolstered by UWaterloo and CommuniTech.

Quoting EmiratesA345 (Reply 24):
In any event, I wish American good luck. At minimum it'll make spotting more interesting at YKF.

Agreed! If the price is right I'm going to consider jumping on one of those first few flights.
Flying refined.
 
yyzame
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RE: American Eagle New Route: ORD-YKF

Wed Dec 14, 2011 5:48 am

Maybe it was a joint plan from WestJet and Eagle seeing as they seem to keep on expanding their code-share routes. Maybe this open's up another code-share for WestJet and eagle to operate?

Also RIM is located in waterloo. With 9,000 employees based in Waterloo I'm sure this route will come in to good use. Multiple friends work for the company and are constantly away on business.
 
AirNovaBAe146
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RE: American Eagle New Route: ORD-YKF

Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:58 am

Quoting yyzame (Reply 27):
Also RIM is located in waterloo. With 9,000 employees based in Waterloo I'm sure this route will come in to good use. Multiple friends work for the company and are constantly away on business.

+1. I'm sure most people perusing this thread read about the two RIM employees who caused the diversion to YVR of an AC B777 that was bound for China. Both pax were senior RIM execs and upper tier Aeroplan members. RIM paid some serious $$$ for those fares (both were in J, IIRC). Just take a look at RIM's worldwide reach, then imagine some of those pax connecting on AA or other OneWorld members thru ORD instead of going thru YYZ and AC.

Then add the multitude of established tech companies in the area, plus the upstarts, and you have the customer base AA is targeting. Higher-yield pax making North American and global connections, enough to offset the cost of running an ERJ on the route.
 
yyzame
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RE: American Eagle New Route: ORD-YKF

Thu Dec 15, 2011 12:53 am

Quoting AirNovaBAe146 (Reply 28):
Then add the multitude of established tech companies in the area, plus the upstarts, and you have the customer base AA is targeting. Higher-yield pax making North American and global connections, enough to offset the cost of running an ERJ on the route.

Exactly what I was thinking. With such a large worldwide company I think them alone could support this route if they choose to start flying out of YKF.

Maybe there is a mutual agreement to help each other out as both companies seem to be loosing more and more money.
 
WestJet747
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RE: American Eagle New Route: ORD-YKF

Thu Dec 15, 2011 1:08 am

Quoting yyzame (Reply 29):
Maybe there is a mutual agreement to help each other out as both companies seem to be loosing more and more money.

The local paper is reporting that local businesses will be supporting the service with $150,000 in investments:

Flights to Chicago from Waterloo airport launch in June

Quoting yyzame (Reply 27):
Maybe it was a joint plan from WestJet and Eagle seeing as they seem to keep on expanding their code-share routes.

People from Calgary aren't going to fly to YKF to hop on an ERJ to go back in the same direction they came from to get to ORD. Plus AA already offers seasonal YYC-ORD service.

Quoting yyzame (Reply 27):
Maybe this open's up another code-share for WestJet and eagle to operate?

The WS/AA codeshare is for a handful of high-volume routes on the mainline only. It's not as transparent as some people make it sound unfortunately.
Flying refined.
 
yenne09
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RE: American Eagle New Route: ORD-YKF

Thu Dec 15, 2011 1:22 pm

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 1):
Surprised in a way that AA picked Kitchener and not Hamilton

I don't know what is happening to Hamilton. This city was based on the steel industry which has declined so much. All the attempts to built something important regarding scheduled flights has failed. The YHM airport has been expanded as a reliever of Toronto. The first attempt was Nordair with the MontrIeal-Ottawa-Hamilton-Pittsburgh route in the 70's. In the 80's it was an amazing airport with City Express (Ottawa-Montreal), Nationair (London UK), Pan Am Express (New York -JFK). Tempus (Ottawa-Montreal), Ontario Express (Ottawa-Montreal), Air Canada Jazz (Montreal) and even Globespan tried to revive YHM with out success. Westjet built a hub which later has been moved to Toronto so they just have a few flights from Hamilton now.

The Kitchener area is the Canada Golden Triangle or Silicon Valley. It is surprising that it took so long to that area to be able to have scheduled flights. Quite a few carriers tried to start flights to Ottawa. It didn't work until Bearskin came. Now they have flights to Montreal, started a few months ago. Don't forget that the area population is over 500,000 people.
That region is a Canadian diamond.
 
northstardc4m
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RE: American Eagle New Route: ORD-YKF

Thu Dec 15, 2011 2:29 pm

Quoting nomorerjs (Reply 12):
It would be interesting to see how this route works. Could Hamilton, North Bay, Thunder Bay, Timmins, Toronto City, Tremblant, and other airports within 2 hours of ORD see future service?

Hamilton is possible, though with the economy of Hamilton it won't be soon.
North Bay... not enough demand
Thunder Bay, maybe... especially with the MSP link gone on DL, 2x ERJ to ORD might work, though it might also trigger AC putting a couple CRJs/Q400s on YQT-ORD.
Timmins, no... there just isn't enough demand and AC would run them out of town.
Toronto YTZ not unless AE gets Q400s or something, no jets allowed there
Tremblant no way

A couple more that might work:
Sudbury, though it is a long shot.
Windsor, yes even with DTW across the river
Sault Ste Marie, either ON or MI, but since MI couldn't even keep B1900Ds loaded to ORD in the 90s...
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PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: American Eagle New Route: ORD-YKF

Thu Dec 15, 2011 3:08 pm

Sudbury, North Bay, Thunder

Quoting NorthStarDC4M (Reply 32):
A couple more that might work:
Sudbury, though it is a long shot.
Windsor, yes even with DTW across the river
Sault Ste Marie, either ON or MI, but since MI couldn't even keep B1900Ds loaded to ORD in the 90s...

Veto on all of those.

Sudbury - thats getting kind of long and thin, considering there are almost zero economic ties between the two regions
Windsor - Windsor leaks the majority of passengers to DTW as it is, and fares are competitive. Flying to Windsor for them would be about as pointless as DET
Sault Ste Marie - if they really wanted to fly it, CIU (MI) is an EAS market that DL is planning to rebid on. AA could submit a bid if they really wanted to serve it
 
ScottB
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RE: American Eagle New Route: ORD-YKF

Thu Dec 15, 2011 4:12 pm

Quoting yyzame (Reply 27):
Also RIM is located in waterloo. With 9,000 employees based in Waterloo I'm sure this route will come in to good use. Multiple friends work for the company and are constantly away on business.

Pinning the fortunes of the region and this route on RIM might be unwise. Although they had a remarkable run, the introduction of the iPhone & Android really caught them flat-footed; they have struggled to mount an effective response beyond selling lower-priced devices in emerging markets. They still have a shot at turning the tide, but continuing delays make this less and less unlikely.

Beyond that, I'm not sure that transiting U.S. Customs at ORD in both directions and a T-5 to T-3 change are an attractive alternative to YYZ for business travelers going to Europe or the Far East. It really only makes sense for travel to the U.S. -- and even then, one could just drive to DTW for a non-stop.

Quoting DTW.SCE" class="quote" target="_blank">PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 33):
Windsor - Windsor leaks the majority of passengers to DTW as it is, and fares are competitive. Flying to Windsor for them would be about as pointless as DET

Windsor would be even worse with passengers having to eat around $50 in miscellaneous taxes & fees for crossing the border by air.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 10):
YKF is as basic an international airport as you will ever see.

You should have seen RTB about 20 years ago...
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 11377
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

RE: American Eagle New Route: ORD-YKF

Thu Dec 15, 2011 4:22 pm

Quoting ScottB (Reply 34):
It really only makes sense for travel to the U.S. -- and even then, one could just drive to DTW for a non-stop.

Driving to DTW is not attractive. It's nearly a 4 hour drive even if you sail through the border crossing. BUF is closer but still probably a 3 hour drive with the border crossing, and it has much less service.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
Posts: 6091
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 11:45 am

RE: American Eagle New Route: ORD-YKF

Thu Dec 15, 2011 5:04 pm

Yeah, the drive from DTW-YKF to catch a flight is not very attractive.

For O&D, it makes sense to drive between the two markets, but in comparison with other options, it would likely make sense to fly YKF-ORD-XXX (US destination).

I agree, I'm not sure I would necessarily want to transit ORD on an international connection versus flying out of YYZ.
 
WestJet747
Posts: 1950
Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2011 7:43 pm

RE: American Eagle New Route: ORD-YKF

Thu Dec 15, 2011 5:17 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 35):
BUF is closer but still probably a 3 hour drive with the border crossing, and it has much less service.

I've driven from Kitchener to BUF in just over two hours on a couple occasions (obviously in ideal weather/traffic conditions). Far more attractive than driving to DTW, even with less route offerings.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 34):
Pinning the fortunes of the region and this route on RIM might be unwise. Although they had a remarkable run, the introduction of the iPhone & Android really caught them flat-footed; they have struggled to mount an effective response beyond selling lower-priced devices in emerging markets. They still have a shot at turning the tide, but continuing delays make this less and less unlikely.

I think we need to forget about RIM in this conversation. Yes they are a massive player. Yes they are one of the largest companies in the area. But as yenne09 mentioned earlier, K-W is basically the silicon valley of Canada. RIM is just one company. People tend to forget that this area is home to the headquarters of major tech companies such as Sandvine, Dalsa, Open Text, and Desire2Learn. MNE's such as Google, Intel, Oracle, McAfee, EA, and NCR also have development offices here.

AA wasn't targeting a corporation, they were targeting a booming industry. I think the route will be well-served, but only time will really tell...
Flying refined.
 
WA707atMSP
Posts: 1471
Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2006 8:16 pm

RE: American Eagle New Route: ORD-YKF

Thu Dec 15, 2011 6:18 pm

Quoting ScottB (Reply 34):
Quoting DTW.SCE" class="quote" target="_blank">PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 33):
Windsor - Windsor leaks the majority of passengers to DTW as it is, and fares are competitive. Flying to Windsor for them would be about as pointless as DET

Windsor would be even worse with passengers having to eat around $50 in miscellaneous taxes & fees for crossing the border by air.

Ironically, in the late 1940s there were serious discussions about making YQG the primary airport for Detroit. A US domestic terminal would have been built at YQG, along with a 2nd span of the Ambassador bridge and a "customs road" that would bring US residents to / from YQG without having to clear Canadian customs.

DTW (which was only used for general aviation and aircraft manfacture at the time) was chosen instead as Detroit's main airport...and the rest is history.
Seaholm Maples are #1!
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 11377
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

RE: American Eagle New Route: ORD-YKF

Thu Dec 15, 2011 7:10 pm

Quoting DTW.SCE" class="quote" target="_blank">PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 36):
I agree, I'm not sure I would necessarily want to transit ORD on an international connection versus flying out of YYZ.

I think for me, I probably agree, but it's important not to overstate the inconvenience of ORD, I think. The morning flight in particular arrives at a very slow time at Terminal 5, and the walk after clearing customs is likely to be shorter for many passengers than, for instance, a DTW connection.

Coming back, I'd much rather make a "domestic" connection and clear customs at YKF than face YYZ customs followed by a longer drive home.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more

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