msp747
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Future Operators Of AirTran's 717s?

Thu Dec 15, 2011 8:28 pm

Now that Southwest has made it clear that they want to get rid of their 717's, who do you think Boeing will get to take them? I have no doubt that part of the Southwest deal for the 737 MAX includes returning these birds to Boeing. With the unclaimed Mexicana planes, there are a lot of 717's looking for work. Is this the 100 seat order that Delta had been considering? Someone else? Or do these planes have a date with the scrapper?
 
sunking737
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Future Operators Of AirTran's 717s?

Thu Dec 15, 2011 9:07 pm

I believe Boeing will take them back and place them in service with another airline maybe even a new start up somewhere in the world.
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dtw9
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Future Operators Of AirTran's 717s?

Thu Dec 15, 2011 9:26 pm

Quoting msp747 (Thread starter):
With the unclaimed Mexicana planes

There are no unclaimed 717's. The last 20 ex Mexicana birds disappeared from Boeing's website the day Delta announced their order for 737-900's. No idea who took them at this point
 
KrisFlyerGold
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Future Operators Of AirTran's 717s?

Thu Dec 15, 2011 10:04 pm

Quoting msp747 (Thread starter):
Now that Southwest has made it clear that they want to get rid of their 717's, who do you think Boeing will get to take them? I have no doubt that part of the Southwest deal for the 737 MAX includes returning these birds to Boeing. With the unclaimed Mexicana planes, there are a lot of 717's looking for work. Is this the 100 seat order that Delta had been considering? Someone else? Or do these planes have a date with the scrapper?

Given the quotes Gary Kelly has made in the past couple of days on the 717 fleet, there appears no deal linked between this order and retiring the 717, as Gary has said that they are working with Boeing to figure out a replacement strategy but were committed to flying them until their lease expiration in 2024 if need be or arrangements cannot be agreed upon.
 
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zippyjet
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Future Operators Of AirTran's 717s?

Thu Dec 15, 2011 10:37 pm

They'd be a good fit for DL due to NW and their aged DC-9's. Are DC-9 crews certified to fly the 717 since its basically not your father's DC-9?
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SEPilot
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Future Operators Of AirTran's 717s?

Thu Dec 15, 2011 10:39 pm

Quoting KrisFlyerGold (Reply 3):
but were committed to flying them until their lease expiration in 2024

I thought only some of the leases were to 2024; a lot of them are earlier than that.
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dlramp4life
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Future Operators Of AirTran's 717s?

Thu Dec 15, 2011 10:46 pm

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 4):
They'd be a good fit for DL due to NW and their aged DC-9's. Are DC-9 crews certified to fly the 717 since its basically not your father's DC-9?

I would really like to see this happen, but will it? I doubt it
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jetstar
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Future Operators Of AirTran's 717s?

Thu Dec 15, 2011 10:51 pm

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 4):
They'd be a good fit for DL due to NW and their aged DC-9's. Are DC-9 crews certified to fly the 717 since its basically not your father's DC-9?

A B-717 is still a DC-9 as far as the FAA is concerned, so any pilot with a DC-9 type rating only needs differences training to transition to the B-717

JetStar
 
KrisFlyerGold
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Future Operators Of AirTran's 717s?

Thu Dec 15, 2011 11:00 pm

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 5):
I thought only some of the leases were to 2024; a lot of them are earlier than that.

I'm sure that's the case, but 2024 was the only date Gary mentioned.
 
0newair0
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Future Operators Of AirTran's 717s?

Thu Dec 15, 2011 11:19 pm

The 717s should be around for several more years before SWA gets rid of them. There's no telling where they could end up. It's true they will not be around in 2024 but don't be surprised if they're still around in 2015 or 2016... 2017 might be a stretch. You can only replace them so fast...
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catiii
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RE: Future Operators Of AirTran's 717s?

Fri Dec 16, 2011 12:39 am

Quoting msp747 (Thread starter):
Is this the 100 seat order that Delta had been considering?

There was a good thread here not too long ago on the same topic: Ex-AirTran 717s A Good Fit For Delta? (by mplsjefe Sep 1 2011 in Civil Aviation)
 
sunking737
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RE: Future Operators Of AirTran's 717s?

Fri Dec 16, 2011 1:19 am

Quoting dtw9 (Reply 2):
There are no unclaimed 717's. The last 20 ex Mexicana birds disappeared from Boeing's website the day Delta announced their order for 737-900's. No idea who took them at this point

Rumor is the Mexican 717 are spoken for not domestic. Going through overhaul for new operator.
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n7371f
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RE: Future Operators Of AirTran's 717s?

Fri Dec 16, 2011 1:40 am

Quoting sunking737 (Reply 11):

Rumor is the Mexican 717 are spoken for not domestic. Going through overhaul for new operator.

I've heard from a few different people that it's some Russian or close-by airline.
 
sxf24
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RE: Future Operators Of AirTran's 717s?

Fri Dec 16, 2011 2:22 am

Quoting n7371f (Reply 12):
I've heard from a few different people that it's some Russian or close-by airline.

Not Russian. More details should start trickling out soon. Everyone will be surprised, and I'm sure there will be many A.net threads about where the planes are going.
 
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1337Delta764
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RE: Future Operators Of AirTran's 717s?

Fri Dec 16, 2011 2:37 am

Quoting sxf24 (Reply 13):
Not Russian. More details should start trickling out soon. Everyone will be surprised, and I'm sure there will be many A.net threads about where the planes are going.

I'm guessing it's gotta be Delta, for a reason I won't state here. If DL gets their hands on those 717s, DL might as well get their hands on the Saudia MD-90s.

[Edited 2011-12-15 18:47:22]
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Cubsrule
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RE: Future Operators Of AirTran's 717s?

Fri Dec 16, 2011 2:43 am

Quoting 0NEWAIR0 (Reply 9):
The 717s should be around for several more years before SWA gets rid of them. There's no telling where they could end up.

Yup. Rumors of the 717's demise are greatly exaggerated, and I expect it'll be a fairly long process. It is (or it should be) obvious that Gary Kelly would have liked FL better if it was an exclusive 737 operator. But it's also obvious that there's a place for a 717-sized airplane at WN, and that WN will make the best of having them in the fleet. You are absolutely right both that they'll be around in 2014 or 2015 and that they are pretty unlikely to be around in 2024 or 2025.
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sunking737
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RE: Future Operators Of AirTran's 717s?

Fri Dec 16, 2011 2:44 am

Quoting sunking737 (Reply 11):
Quoting dtw9 (Reply 2):
There are no unclaimed 717's. The last 20 ex Mexicana birds disappeared from Boeing's website the day Delta announced their order for 737-900's. No idea who took them at this point

Rumor is the Mexican 717 are spoken for not domestic. Going through overhaul for new operator.

Anyone near a AAR type of facility?
Just an MSPAVGEEK
 
sevenfeet
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RE: Future Operators Of AirTran's 717s?

Fri Dec 16, 2011 3:05 am

Quoting jetstar (Reply 7):

True, and among the domestic carriers, American and Delta know the DC-9 family the best. American has it's own problems right now so that leaves Delta. They've been known to snap up planes like this...just look at the MD-90 acquisition strategy (there are 3 examples from China sitting in front of Delta Tech Ops right now). The big issue for Delta is whether this smaller plane with the weird engines is going to provide enough utility and the right price for Delta's routes. The DC-9-30s and 40s are all gone now and the 717 is a comparable fit. The BMW/Rolls Royce engine is probably big issue to maintain, but it's not like the MD-90s don't have an odd engine nobody else is using.

If I were to bet, I'd think that Delta would pass on the 717, but I guess wrong on Delta acquiring more MD-90s. Who knows what will happen.
 
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zippyjet
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RE: Future Operators Of AirTran's 717s?

Fri Dec 16, 2011 3:10 am

Quoting sevenfeet (Reply 17):
True, and among the domestic carriers, American and Delta know the DC-9 family the best.

DL could use them on the DCA-LGA-BOS shuttle. This would enable them to get rid of their small RJ's.
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atlengineer
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RE: Future Operators Of AirTran's 717s?

Fri Dec 16, 2011 3:30 am

Quoting sxf24 (Reply 13):
I'm guessing it's gotta be Delta,

Well, let me toss one more theory in here. Perhaps when SW ordered more 737's, they made a deal with Boeing to take back the 717's as 737's were delivered. And since the Mexicana 717's went off the market when DL ordered the 739's, maybe DL agreed to take those planes now and then take up to a certain number of the FL 737's as they come off. Just saying. If SW does not go ahead and paint the 717's, then it just could be.

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vhqpa
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RE: Future Operators Of AirTran's 717s?

Fri Dec 16, 2011 3:49 am

Cobham Aviation is another candidate. Qantas announced they will be opening a 717 base in BNE. This will initially be two frames but at the rate resources are booming in Queensland I expect it to grow quickly. They probably don't need the whole 20. But I can see them picking up 5-10 further frames as they come available on the second hand market
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sxf24
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RE: Future Operators Of AirTran's 717s?

Fri Dec 16, 2011 3:56 am

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 14):
I'm guessing it's gotta be Delta, for a reason I won't state here. If DL gets their hands on those 717s, DL might as well get their hands on the Saudia MD-90s.

It is not Delta. And, the SV MD-90s aren't coming either. DL can't even induct the MD-90s they have, not to mention the JL MD-90s, which are the next best acquisition candidates. Until TechOps gets their act in order and the backlog of aircraft sitting on the ground disappears, I don't think DL will buy any other used airplanes.

Quoting sevenfeet (Reply 17):
The BMW/Rolls Royce engine is probably big issue to maintain, but it's not like the MD-90s don't have an odd engine nobody else is using.

All of the FL planes are in a total care/power by the hour agreement, so I'm not sure engines are an issue.
 
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hOMSaR
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RE: Future Operators Of AirTran's 717s?

Fri Dec 16, 2011 4:42 am

I know! I know!

It's going to be Emirates. They wanted to issue an RFP for a 1000-seat airplane, but a secretary mistyped and dropped a 0.
The plural of Airbus is Airbuses. Airbii is not a word, and doesn't even make sense.
 
FX1816
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RE: Future Operators Of AirTran's 717s?

Fri Dec 16, 2011 5:30 am

Quoting sunking737 (Reply 16):
Quoting sunking737 (Reply 11):
Quoting dtw9 (Reply 2):
There are no unclaimed 717's. The last 20 ex Mexicana birds disappeared from Boeing's website the day Delta announced their order for 737-900's. No idea who took them at this point

Rumor is the Mexican 717 are spoken for not domestic. Going through overhaul for new operator.


Anyone near a AAR type of facility?

The only thing I can say is that they are slowly leaving VCV for SAT. I have worked most of them departing VCV.

FX1816
 
dumbell2424
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RE: Future Operators Of AirTran's 717s?

Fri Dec 16, 2011 6:19 am

Quoting FX1816 (Reply 23):
The only thing I can say is that they are slowly leaving VCV for SAT. I have worked most of them departing VCV.

Interesting.... http://flightaware.com/live/flight/S...3/history/20111205/1800Z/KVCV/KELP
 
777fan
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RE: Future Operators Of AirTran's 717s?

Fri Dec 16, 2011 10:28 am

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 18):
Quoting sevenfeet (Reply 17):
True, and among the domestic carriers, American and Delta know the DC-9 family the best.

DL could use them on the DCA-LGA-BOS shuttle. This would enable them to get rid of their small RJ's.

Sure, but any potential "savings" likely would be negated by the higher cost of running mainline ops versus contracting a regional carrier.

Why not a few more for HA? There doesn't seem to be an adequate replacement candidate for the interisland beatings that their fleet requires and endures. Whatever the case, somebody's going to inherit a great plane - I always enjoyed the 717 and the sound of its engine spool up, not to mention the distinct generator whine/hum inside the cabin.

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hawaiianstyle
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RE: Future Operators Of AirTran's 717s?

Fri Dec 16, 2011 10:37 am

Delta has no plans for the 717's. I sat in a meeting about the 100 planes Delta ordered and they are 737 new generation planes, the last 100!!
 
VC10er
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RE: Future Operators Of AirTran's 717s?

Fri Dec 16, 2011 1:05 pm

Can UA (ex-CO) get rid of 20 E145's.  
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sunking737
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RE: Future Operators Of AirTran's 717s?

Fri Dec 16, 2011 2:08 pm

Quoting VC10er (Reply 27):
Can UA (ex-CO) get rid of 20 E145's.

What does that have to do with Airtran/Southwest 717's???
Just an MSPAVGEEK
 
FlyASAGuy2005
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RE: Future Operators Of AirTran's 717s?

Fri Dec 16, 2011 2:59 pm

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 4):

DL is not interested. The engines are garbage and they do not seat enough people. The direction DL is going in is to take an airplane that is to seat say 100 and squeeze 120 in it. Look at what they are doing with the 88s/90s and the 763s. Makes zero sense when there is new technology available and right around the corner.

[quote=1337Delta764,reply=14][/quote

Negative.
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bobnwa
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RE: Future Operators Of AirTran's 717s?

Fri Dec 16, 2011 3:08 pm

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 14):
I'm guessing it's gotta be Delta, for a reason I won't state here. If DL gets their hands on those 717s, DL might as well get their hands on the Saudia MD-90s.



Why can't 'you state the reason here? As members of theis forum we all have been vetted for top secret material, and obviously we all have a need to know.
 
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1337Delta764
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RE: Future Operators Of AirTran's 717s?

Fri Dec 16, 2011 3:22 pm

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 30):
Why can't 'you state the reason here? As members of theis forum we all have been vetted for top secret material, and obviously we all have a need to know.

Okay, the reason is that sxf24 hangs out a lot on the FT Delta forum, so I just took a guess.
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BasilFawlty
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RE: Future Operators Of AirTran's 717s?

Fri Dec 16, 2011 4:05 pm

Quoting n7371f (Reply 12):
I've heard from a few different people that it's some Russian or close-by airline.

There were indeed rumours a while ago that Russian airline VIM Airlines was interested in the 717.
'Every year donkeys and mules kill more people than plane crashes'
 
sunking737
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RE: Future Operators Of AirTran's 717s?

Fri Dec 16, 2011 4:07 pm

Quoting BasilFawlty (Reply 32):
Quoting n7371f (Reply 12):
I've heard from a few different people that it's some Russian or close-by airline.

There were indeed rumours a while ago that Russian airline VIM Airlines was interested in the 717.

You maybe correct sir
Just an MSPAVGEEK
 
bobnwa
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RE: Future Operators Of AirTran's 717s?

Fri Dec 16, 2011 4:18 pm

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 31):
Okay, the reason is that sxf24 hangs out a lot on the FT Delta forum, so I just took a guess.

I have no idea who axf24 is or what he says ion this forum. Please enlighten me
 
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1337Delta764
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RE: Future Operators Of AirTran's 717s?

Fri Dec 16, 2011 4:44 pm

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 34):
I have no idea who axf24 is or what he says ion this forum. Please enlighten me
FT is for FlyerTalk. He always hangs out at the Delta forum there.

[Edited 2011-12-16 08:44:40]
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sldispatcher
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RE: Future Operators Of AirTran's 717s?

Fri Dec 16, 2011 5:23 pm

Quoting VC10er (Reply 27):
Quoting VC10er (Reply 27):

They can park them whenever they like....I believe they own them..but I do not know about any other details.

UA/CO is exactly who I thought of as well....but would not be in their typical plan. Scope, of course, would put them on the mainline side which, from what I can tell, they probably need desparately. I just don't see them adding this oddball type, but stranger things have happened.

G4, however, is a completely different story.

At any rate, will be interesting and I hope this is more than just a.net typical rumor mill..but something with some substance to it.
 
s4popo
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RE: Future Operators Of AirTran's 717s?

Fri Dec 16, 2011 6:34 pm

I wouldn't be surprised if some of them ended up with HA.
 
bmacleod
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RE: Future Operators Of AirTran's 717s?

Fri Dec 16, 2011 6:45 pm

I hope some if not all Air Tran 717s are taken up by DL; they are too good to be sent to the desert....
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kgaiflyer
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RE: Future Operators Of AirTran's 717s?

Fri Dec 16, 2011 6:59 pm

Quoting VC10er (Reply 27):
Can UA (ex-CO) get rid of 20 E145's.

Uum . . . Neither CO nor UA owns any E145s.

They are owned by subcontractors Expressjet (243) ; Chautauqua (78) , and Trans-States (27) .

My guess is that those 348 airframes are not going to go away anytime in either your or my lifetime.   

[Edited 2011-12-16 11:07:59]
 
sldispatcher
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RE: Future Operators Of AirTran's 717s?

Fri Dec 16, 2011 9:32 pm

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 39):
Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 39):
Quoting VC10er (Reply 27):
Can UA (ex-CO) get rid of 20 E145's.

Uum . . . Neither CO nor UA owns any E145s.

They are owned by subcontractors Expressjet (243) ;

And here I was all along under the mistaken impression that Continental paid for all of those Embraers and was leasing them to ExpressJet all of these years.
 
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kgaiflyer
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RE: Future Operators Of AirTran's 717s?

Fri Dec 16, 2011 9:43 pm

Quoting sldispatcher (Reply 41):
And here I was all along under the mistaken impression that Continental paid for all of those Embraers and was leasing them to ExpressJet all of these years.

Actually, Expressjet is now a wholly owned subsidiary of SkyWest -- who also have ASA in their portfolio. Before that, they were operating out of ONT as a point-to-point carrier.

CO divested XE some years ago.
 
nws2002
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RE: Future Operators Of AirTran's 717s?

Fri Dec 16, 2011 9:49 pm

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 42):
Actually, Expressjet is now a wholly owned subsidiary of SkyWest -- who also have ASA in their portfolio. Before that, they were operating out of ONT as a point-to-point carrier.

CO divested XE some years ago.

Right, but the E145s are CO (well UCH now) aircraft, they just lease them to XE.
 
hmelawyer
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RE: Future Operators Of AirTran's 717s?

Fri Dec 16, 2011 10:13 pm

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 42):
Actually, Expressjet is now a wholly owned subsidiary of SkyWest -- who also have ASA in their portfolio. Before that, they were operating out of ONT as a point-to-point carrier.

CO divested XE some years ago.

While CO did divest XE some years ago, and XE did some point to point flying with a number of jets that were dropped from the CO contract after the divesture (I think about 34 jets) the majority of the fleet was still doing regional contract flying for CO before the Skywest merger. The scope provisions of the combined CO/UA pilot contract will have an impact on how long a number of the XE ERJs keep flying.
 
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kgaiflyer
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RE: Future Operators Of AirTran's 717s?

Fri Dec 16, 2011 10:44 pm

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 29):
DL is not interested. The engines are garbage
 

I know what garbage is, and I know what engines are.

Nevertheless, I don't understand quite what you are saying.

Quoting sldispatcher (Reply 36):
UA/CO is exactly who I thought of as well....but would not be in their typical plan. Scope, of course, would put them on the mainline side which, from what I can tell, they probably need desparately. I just don't see them adding this oddball type, but stranger things have happened.


If (CO-UA) were to base them in DEN, I can think of at least a dozen routes on which 100 seats would be a perfect fit.

[Edited 2011-12-16 21:41:57 by SA7700]
 
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hOMSaR
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RE: Future Operators Of AirTran's 717s?

Sat Dec 17, 2011 3:24 am

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 39):

They are owned by subcontractors Expressjet (243) ; Chautauqua (78) , and Trans-States (27) .

My guess is that those 348 airframes are not going to go away anytime in either your or my lifetime

The oldest frames were delivered in the mid-1990s. That puts them around 15 years old or so.

High fuel prices and high-CASM airplanes getting up there in years (and cycles) don't mix too well, so one ought to figure that some of them, at least, might go away soon.
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flyabr
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RE: Future Operators Of AirTran's 717s?

Sat Dec 17, 2011 5:06 am

If AirTran had been able to purchase a 717-300...would WN have kept those?? Just wondering aloud!  
 
sldispatcher
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RE: Future Operators Of AirTran's 717s?

Sat Dec 17, 2011 5:40 am

Quoting nws2002 (Reply 43):

Right, but the E145s are CO (well UCH now) aircraft, they just lease them to XE.

I thought that was correct, but could not find a reference. When it was time for the E135's to be parked, they sat here in SHV for weeks getting the mods to send them to the desert. Knew then that CO had said "no more" with those.

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 47):
If (CO-UA) were to base them in DEN, I can think of at least a dozen routes on which 100 seats would be a perfect fit.

Might also be a "quick and dirty" way for the new UA to see how they could handle 100 seat aircraft and make money before investing long term in a new aircraft. DEN probably is a prime spot. IAH/EWR would probably be good places as well. Either way, it's all conjecture at this point.

I'm expecting to be let down with the final decision anyway.
 
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aerorobnz
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RE: Future Operators Of AirTran's 717s?

Sat Dec 17, 2011 5:54 am

I always wanted them in NZ colours... now there is a suitable position to cover the gap between ATR72s and A320s. dreams are free... 
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n7371f
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RE: Future Operators Of AirTran's 717s?

Sat Dec 17, 2011 5:17 pm

Quoting sldispatcher (Reply 47):
Quoting nws2002 (Reply 43):

Right, but the E145s are CO (well UCH now) aircraft, they just lease them to XE.

I thought that was correct, but could not find a reference. When it was time for the E135's to be parked, they sat here in SHV for weeks getting the mods to send them to the desert. Knew then that CO had said "no more" with those.

This is all correct...Continental (well I guess UCH now) controls the leases on all the of the ERJ fleet and there is a small subfleet, around 20 or so, that are owned as well. Even during the ExpressJet branded days, those planes were leased from CO. The only stipulation was they could not be flown into any CO hub (IAH, EWR, CLE) under ExpressJet branded oeprations - or for another carrier. Continental erred when it discovered that ExpressJet was taking the newest build, higher gross-weight ERX's from the CO system and placing them in branded. I'm not sure the exact contract stipulations but Kellner was apparently pissed when he learned that CO was losing a good chunk of its long and thin flying from Express.

Finally, it's the same set-up that NWA used with Pinnacle and Mesaba and Compass. NWA leased all of the CRJ-200/440's from Bombardier and various subsidiaries and then subleased the planes to Pinnacle and later a few to Mesaba. The CR9's and E75's were outright purchased and leased out to XJ and CZ.

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