YYZYYT
Topic Author
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"Honest Pricing" Rules For Airline Ads

Fri Dec 16, 2011 5:37 pm

Per the CBC, the Canadian government is finally going to implement rules about how airlines advertise airfares...

I for one, think that it is about time. It was one thing when airfares were quoted on a "plus tax" basis, as taxes are beyond the airlines' control and are the same for all. But the present practice of discounting fares but adding "surcharges" or "fees" for fuel, insurance, etc, is very annoying.

I also don't understand why this has been tolerated for so long. If a store advertised a tv for $199, but asked to pay a "showroom rent surcharge" of $200, they would be nailed to the wall for misleading adversting.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/...12/16/pol-airline-advertising.html

Any thoughts?

Are there any other jurisdictions where this adverstising is regulated?
 
pnd100
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RE: "Honest Pricing" Rules For Airline Ads

Fri Dec 16, 2011 7:05 pm

They want to make the airline advertising like gasoline or liquor in Canada. Whatever we see, the price includes all taxes.

On the one hand consumers will think this will work better for them because it's simpler. But simpler pricing is not necessarily better pricing. For example it's easier to hide baggage fees or fuel surcharges in a simple price. From an airline's point of view I completely understand why they do not advertise the tax because they sell the fare, not the tax.

This bill has come up I think because of complaints from the usual crowd who doesn't bother to read the agreement prior to purchase. They then willingly sign & then are shocked that the company had the audacity to do as it said in the agreement & complain. As usual they get the ear of the public because it's easy to point the finger at the faceless corporation.
 
blueflyer
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RE: "Honest Pricing" Rules For Airline Ads

Fri Dec 16, 2011 7:32 pm

I would settle for the legal requirement to advertise a price that includes:
-base fare;
-unavoidable charges (taxes, fuel, etc...);
-cost of highest option when the passenger has to pick among several for a mandatory feature (eg: highest payment processing fee).

Anything else that the customer has a complete choice to add on or not (luggage, food, etc...) can be left off the price, as long as the price is accompanied by a not-so-small disclaimer that "optional features are extra."
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GerbenYYZ
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RE: "Honest Pricing" Rules For Airline Ads

Fri Dec 16, 2011 7:47 pm

I'm all for all-inclusive pricing. It's rediculous that a $22 one way flight from Toronto to Fort Lauderdale ends up costing $305 (Flight Centre seat sale).
 
Rara
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RE: "Honest Pricing" Rules For Airline Ads

Fri Dec 16, 2011 7:54 pm

Quoting YYZYYT (Thread starter):

Any thoughts?

Good thing.

Quoting YYZYYT (Thread starter):

Are there any other jurisdictions where this adverstising is regulated?

It's already regulated in Europe, insofar as taxes and surcharges have to be included, but if I was a regulator, I'd go much further. I'd define a flight as containing the following: a ticket including all taxes, charges, fees, etc., paying for it (with a payment method that more than half of the customers have access to, e.g. credit/debit card and NOT some obscure Visa Electron thingy), checking one piece of luggage, check-in (at the airport), and boarding. Also, using the onboard toilet.   Whatever you charge a customer for all this will be the price you're allowed to advertize. You're welcome to offer reductions, say if the passenger chooses not to check their luggage, but THIS will have to go into the footnotes, not the other way around. Also, you're only allowed to advertize with it if at least 20% of your tickets will actually be available at that price.

Airlines should compete by quality of service and price, not by who's best in fooling customers.
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threepoint
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RE: "Honest Pricing" Rules For Airline Ads

Fri Dec 16, 2011 8:29 pm

Canadian airlines are opposed to this ruling, stating that it will permit foreign carriers to compete by advertising base fares only. While this may be true, it will have to take a pretty clueless person not to realise that the all-in purchase price they accept is comparable to those offered by Canadian airlines.
But again, perhaps that's what the domestic airlines are worried about - that once a customer is lured by the seemingly low fare and navigates through the purchase procedure to be confronted with the real cost of the ticket, they may decide they've "already come this far" and are one click away from completing the sale, rather than canceling the transaction and going with the local airline for essentially the same price. On that aspect, they have a point.
So, how to address this? Require all airlines selling tickets in Canada to adopt the new all-in price advertising.
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Whiteguy
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RE: "Honest Pricing" Rules For Airline Ads

Fri Dec 16, 2011 8:44 pm

Quoting GerbenYYZ (Reply 3):

I'm all for all-inclusive pricing. It's rediculous that a $22 one way flight from Toronto to Fort Lauderdale ends up costing $305 (Flight Centre seat sale).


So now they'll advertise the price as $305 to FLL. You really believed it cost $22 to go to FLL?
 
threepoint
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RE: "Honest Pricing" Rules For Airline Ads

Fri Dec 16, 2011 8:55 pm

Quoting whiteguy (Reply 6):
So now they'll advertise the price as $305 to FLL.

Yes, but theoretically, a US competitor will be able to advertise a flight for say, $250. Naturally, we will all flock to that site and spend several minutes completing the transaction to the point where the credit card comes out to the tune of....$305-ish. Do you abandon the transaction now, or spend even more time going back to the first option for no or negligible financial gain?
The nice thing about a mistake is the pleasure it gives others.
 
cmf
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RE: "Honest Pricing" Rules For Airline Ads

Fri Dec 16, 2011 10:48 pm

Quoting threepoint (Reply 7):
Yes, but theoretically, a US competitor will be able to advertise a flight for say, $250.

Why will a US competitor be able to advertise at a lower price? If they advertise at the same place they are required to follow the same rules. I.e. a US airline advertising in Canada will need to follow Canadian rules and a Canadian airline advertising in US can do so following US rules.
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
brilondon
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RE: "Honest Pricing" Rules For Airline Ads

Fri Dec 16, 2011 11:09 pm

Quoting GerbenYYZ (Reply 3):
I'm all for all-inclusive pricing. It's rediculous that a $22 one way flight from Toronto to Fort Lauderdale ends up costing $305 (Flight Centre seat sale).



You still see the final price you have to pay before you commit to the fare and can always find out before you purchase the flight what extras you have to pay. As a consumer I would assume you would look before you leap so to speak and don't come and tell anybody that you were mis-informed about the price you have to pay.
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Viscount724
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RE: "Honest Pricing" Rules For Airline Ads

Fri Dec 16, 2011 11:09 pm

Quoting cmf (Reply 8):
Quoting threepoint (Reply 7):
Yes, but theoretically, a US competitor will be able to advertise a flight for say, $250.

Why will a US competitor be able to advertise at a lower price? If they advertise at the same place they are required to follow the same rules. I.e. a US airline advertising in Canada will need to follow Canadian rules and a Canadian airline advertising in US can do so following US rules.

Yes, but US carriers can also advertise domestic fares from nearby US border points (e.g. Buffalo, Bellingham, etc.) where none of the international taxes and customs/immgration fees applicable to transborder flights apply.
 
rcair1
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RE: "Honest Pricing" Rules For Airline Ads

Sat Dec 17, 2011 3:02 am

Quoting pnd100 (Reply 1):

They want to make the airline advertising like gasoline or liquor in Canada. Whatever we see, the price includes all taxes

Personally - I oppose tax inclusive pricing. I want the public to know how much they are paying in taxes. I also oppose withholding. Again - people need to feel the pain of that major check. What I think is ridiculous is that my $188 RT fare DEN-SEA next month as 99.17 in taxes.

Quoting whiteguy (Reply 6):
You really believed it cost $22 to go to FLL

People are gullible.
rcair1
 
cmf
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RE: "Honest Pricing" Rules For Airline Ads

Sat Dec 17, 2011 4:27 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 10):
Yes, but US carriers can also advertise domestic fares from nearby US border points (e.g. Buffalo, Bellingham, etc.) where none of the international taxes and customs/immgration fees applicable to transborder flights apply.

So what.

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 11):
Personally - I oppose tax inclusive pricing. I want the public to know how much they are paying in taxes. I also oppose withholding. Again - people need to feel the pain of that major check. What I think is ridiculous is that my $188 RT fare DEN-SEA next month as 99.17 in taxes.

I oppose not being shown what I will be charged. If you want to make a statement about taxes then state x of the total price is taxes but show me the total first.
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
ltbewr
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RE: "Honest Pricing" Rules For Airline Ads

Sat Dec 17, 2011 4:40 am

The bold displayed prices should include:
The base price fare
Any and all Federal or Government Taxes, Security Fees, Airport fees
Any and all payment fees with the use of credit or debit cards
Any fuel surcharges

Adjacent to the price should be in print at least 1/4 as high as the base price but not smaller that 8 pts., any cabin or checked bag or related fees.
 
threepoint
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RE: "Honest Pricing" Rules For Airline Ads

Sat Dec 17, 2011 6:33 am

Quoting cmf (Reply 8):
Why will a US competitor be able to advertise at a lower price? If they advertise at the same place they are required to follow the same rules

Well not according to the domestic airlines who have claimed that non-Canadian airlines may be exempt from the ruling (if the fares are listed on a foreign website, is it considered advertising in Canada?)

In the OP's link, the Minister of State for Transport is quoted implying that indeed, domestic airlines could be at a disadvantage. How do you suppose that might be?

On Friday, Fletcher defended the government's decision to wait and said it didn't want to put airlines at a competitive disadvantage
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Airvan00
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RE: "Honest Pricing" Rules For Airline Ads

Sat Dec 17, 2011 7:06 am

Quoting threepoint (Reply 14):
On Friday, Fletcher defended the government's decision to wait and said it didn't want to put airlines at a competitive disadvantage

The government just has to frame the legislation that for flights departing Canadian airports, the full inclusive price has to be advertised. UA or DL advertising flights from Australia quote the inclusive fare.

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 11):

Personally - I oppose tax inclusive pricing. I want the public to know how much they are paying in taxes.

In Australia the amount of Fees/Taxes/Charges is required to be printed on the eTicket.
 
silentbob
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RE: "Honest Pricing" Rules For Airline Ads

Sat Dec 17, 2011 9:11 am

Quoting pnd100 (Reply 1):
This bill has come up I think because of complaints from the usual crowd who doesn't bother to read the agreement prior to purchase.

It also makes it easier to hide higher taxes if they are bundled into the ticket price.

Fuel fees and payment surcharges should be banned entirely. Fuel and paying for your ticket are requirements, they are not optional.

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 11):
Personally - I oppose tax inclusive pricing. I want the public to know how much they are paying in taxes.

I agree, but we appear to be in the minority. People are lazy and just want to know the total, they don't care if they pay more in taxes than in fares.
 
ACDC8
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RE: "Honest Pricing" Rules For Airline Ads

Sat Dec 17, 2011 11:06 am

About freakin' time!

Quoting GerbenYYZ (Reply 3):
I'm all for all-inclusive pricing. It's rediculous that a $22 one way flight from Toronto to Fort Lauderdale ends up costing $305 (Flight Centre seat sale).

Agreed, Flight Center advertised YVR-LGW for $99 plus $900 in fees, surcharges in taxes.

Quoting threepoint (Reply 5):
Canadian airlines are opposed to this ruling, stating that it will permit foreign carriers to compete by advertising base fares only.

Not according to this article ...

http://www.castanet.net/edition/news-story-68636-4-.htm#68636

"Two of Canada's major airlines welcomed the new rules.

"We recognize that the travelling public have been asking for all-inclusive fare advertising, and we have been looking at this very closely," Air Canada said in a statement.

"Air Canada supports this initiative by the federal government if it meets consumer needs and have said publicly for years that we would happily comply with whatever advertising rules the government wishes to implement provided they apply equally to all carriers, domestic and foreign, against which we compete."

WestJet also supported the change.

"WestJet is in favour of all-in pricing to provide the travelling public with comparability among all airlines," said a statement from the airline."


Quoting whiteguy (Reply 6):
You really believed it cost $22 to go to FLL?

If I can get from virtually one point in Europe to another for such a low price, why not here?

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 11):
Personally - I oppose tax inclusive pricing. I want the public to know how much they are paying in taxes

I am the opposite, I despise added tax. The Germans have it down pat, you pay what you advertise and if you want to know how much tax your paying, simply look at the receipt ... simple, clean and smart.
A Grumpy German Is A Sauerkraut
 
cmf
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RE: "Honest Pricing" Rules For Airline Ads

Sat Dec 17, 2011 12:44 pm

Quoting threepoint (Reply 14):
Well not according to the domestic airlines who have claimed that non-Canadian airlines may be exempt from the ruling (if the fares are listed on a foreign website, is it considered advertising in Canada?)

You always play by the rules of where something is located. When advertising in a Canadian magazine you need to follow Canadian rules. When advertising in an Indian magazine you follow Indian rules. If for some reason you read the Indian magazine in Canada there is no requirement for the publisher to change the content to follow Canadian rules.

On the Internet it is a bit trickier as you borders are easier to cross but for the most part you need to follow the rules of the country where the company owning the web site is located.

So if a price is shown on a Canadian web site I do not understand how the non-Canadian airline will be allowed to show a non-inclusive price. It would be against how this kind of rules are practiced every where else.

But if you as a Canadian consumer compare Air Canada's web site with the price first shown on American Airlines web site then you need a lot of knowledge to figure out how to make apples to apples comparison. (Actually you need to click through to just before purchasing the ticket on AA to get the price they could have show from the beginning.)

Quoting threepoint (Reply 14):
In the OP's link, the Minister of State for Transport is quoted implying that indeed, domestic airlines could be at a disadvantage. How do you suppose that might be?

He is but I need to refer back to you for why that is.
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
N1120A
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RE: "Honest Pricing" Rules For Airline Ads

Sat Dec 17, 2011 12:55 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 10):
Yes, but US carriers can also advertise domestic fares from nearby US border points (e.g. Buffalo, Bellingham, etc.) where none of the international taxes and customs/immgration fees applicable to transborder flights apply.

As someone with significant transborder travel experience, its not the tax/fee difference that makes that choice happen - because the difference is only about $30-$40. The real difference is simply that the airlines charge more for perception.
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kl911
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RE: "Honest Pricing" Rules For Airline Ads

Sat Dec 17, 2011 2:01 pm

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 17):
Quoting whiteguy (Reply 6):
You really believed it cost $22 to go to FLL?

If I can get from virtually one point in Europe to another for such a low price, why not here?

True, I just booked Ryanair MAD - ACE for 29 euro incl tax. I print my own bourdingpass and have handluggage only. That is good for a 3 hour flight.

I am actually the type that prefers the basefare and all other fees to be seperated. I want to know to which agency my tax money goes, and how much the fuel surcharges are. Within europe you can come across very different amount of fuel charges on the same route.
 
cmf
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RE: "Honest Pricing" Rules For Airline Ads

Sat Dec 17, 2011 2:52 pm

Quoting kl911 (Reply 20):
Within europe you can come across very different amount of fuel charges on the same route.

Why do you care if the fare price is 10 and the fuel charge 90 or the fare 90 and the fuel charge 10?
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
Indy
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RE: "Honest Pricing" Rules For Airline Ads

Sat Dec 17, 2011 3:24 pm

I would love to see strict pricing rules in the U.S. so we could eliminate extremely dishonest pricing that the airlines have adopted on international flights. A base price of $290.60 for a total of $803.50. The airline $440 for an "international surcharge" under taxes and fees. Lets be honest and call the base price $730.60.
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Pe@rson
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RE: "Honest Pricing" Rules For Airline Ads

Sat Dec 17, 2011 3:32 pm

Quoting kl911 (Reply 20):
I just booked Ryanair MAD - ACE for 29 euro incl tax.


Absolutely. I just quickly found LTN-LPA - over 1,800 miles and 4h 25m block - for £15.99 one-way including taxes/charges although excluding the £6 card fee. Thus, £21.99 is all I would pay if I were to take the flight as I don't take checked luggage.

[Edited 2011-12-17 07:36:11]
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Whiteguy
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RE: "Honest Pricing" Rules For Airline Ads

Sat Dec 17, 2011 3:58 pm

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 17):
If I can get from virtually one point in Europe to another for such a low price, why not here?

The market in Europe is completely different to the market in North America. Population is much larger and same with the number of airlines competing for business.
 
Viscount724
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RE: "Honest Pricing" Rules For Airline Ads

Sat Dec 17, 2011 10:31 pm

Quoting whiteguy (Reply 24):
Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 17):
If I can get from virtually one point in Europe to another for such a low price, why not here?

The market in Europe is completely different to the market in North America. Population is much larger

But Europe's population is declining while North America's is growing. For example, Russia's population is dropping by 700,000 to 800,000 a year and by 2050 is expected to total only about 110 million compared to about 142 million today. That's due to a high death rate, low average life expectancy (only 59 for men), low birth rate, high abortion rate and low immigration. Many other countries in Europe also aren't replacing their populations due to much lower birth rates than in earlier years.

[Edited 2011-12-17 15:13:44]
 
EDICHC
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RE: "Honest Pricing" Rules For Airline Ads

Sat Dec 17, 2011 10:55 pm

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 13):
Any fuel surcharges

Why print fuel surcharges as a separate item? IMO there is no such thing as a fuel surcharge, fuel is used to fly the a/c from point A to point B so ANY fuel costs are part of the base fare. Fuel surcharges are just another invention of carriers to hoodwink consumers.
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larshjort
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RE: "Honest Pricing" Rules For Airline Ads

Sat Dec 17, 2011 11:08 pm

Quoting whiteguy (Reply 6):

So now they'll advertise the price as $305 to FLL. You really believed it cost $22 to go to FLL?

Why not offer all flights for $1 + tax and fuel surcharge? I cannot see the point of advertising a fare if I am going to pay 15 times whats advertised in order to set my foot on the aircraft.

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multimark
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RE: "Honest Pricing" Rules For Airline Ads

Sun Dec 18, 2011 12:08 am

Of course this is more convenient for the Federal Government than the consumer. Now the consumer doesn't see how much the Feds are ripping them off by adding outrageous taxes to airline tickets, it will all be buried in the price.
 
WestJet747
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RE: "Honest Pricing" Rules For Airline Ads

Sun Dec 18, 2011 12:35 am

Quoting multimark (Reply 28):
Of course this is more convenient for the Federal Government than the consumer. Now the consumer doesn't see how much the Feds are ripping them off by adding outrageous taxes to airline tickets, it will all be buried in the price.

The purpose of this regulation is to change how airlines advertise fares. When you purchase the ticket you will still be able to see a breakdown of the various fees and taxes.
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ACDC8
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RE: "Honest Pricing" Rules For Airline Ads

Sun Dec 18, 2011 12:38 am

Quoting whiteguy (Reply 24):
The market in Europe is completely different to the market in North America. Population is much larger and same with the number of airlines competing for business.

Our market and population have nothing to do with airlines here selling a few seats here and there for low prices all in ... they've done it before and they can do it again, but they'd rather just advertise completely misleading prices only to tally up the tab to ridiculously insane surcharges.

Quoting EDICHC (Reply 26):
Fuel surcharges are just another invention of carriers to hoodwink consumers.

  

Quoting multimark (Reply 28):
Of course this is more convenient for the Federal Government than the consumer. Now the consumer doesn't see how much the Feds are ripping them off by adding outrageous taxes to airline tickets, it will all be buried in the price.

How so? All the taxes, fees and surcharges will still be there in plain sight to see once you click on details or printed on the receipt. Personally, I could care less who gets my money, all I want to know is how much I have to pay for a product or service so I can comapre and shop around, if I really want to know how much money the Government is getting, its just a glance away.

I just really hope this will trickle down to other consumer areas so we'll finally be on par with other developed nations.
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Gemuser
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RE: "Honest Pricing" Rules For Airline Ads

Sun Dec 18, 2011 12:46 am

Quoting cmf (Reply 18):
On the Internet it is a bit trickier as you borders are easier to cross but for the most part you need to follow the rules of the country where the company owning the web site is located.

This is very arguable! In fact the Australian government has decided its where the service is delivered. That is why DL & UA HAVE to follow Australian rule for fares from Australia even though I seriously doubt UA.com or DL.com is located in Australia.

Gemuser
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YXD172
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RE: "Honest Pricing" Rules For Airline Ads

Sun Dec 18, 2011 12:57 am

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 30):


I just really hope this will trickle down to other consumer areas so we'll finally be on par with other developed nations.

Agreed! It was a nice surprise when I was in Europe to find that all tag prices, whether retail or service oriented, included all tax. The price you see is the price you pay. And, for those who are saying that it's just the government trying to hide how much taxes are, the taxes were disclosed on every receipt I saw.

Just because the taxes are rolled into the prices doesn't mean that people will ever forget how much they are - every day you would hear / see someone complaining about the VAT (IIRC 22% in Portugal!) Few people will stop complaining about taxes just because prices now include them. And it makes it more convenient to shop knowing exactly how much you'll pay (especially in grocery stores, where taxes vary depending on what you buy)

Quoting whiteguy (Reply 6):


So now they'll advertise the price as $305 to FLL. You really believed it cost $22 to go to FLL?

No, but take a YYZ-LHR flight for example. AC often advertises $200 each way - which is what I have paid before for YYZ-LGW on TS, not not entirely unreasonable that AC would have a great sale and match that price. But of course, the final price is over $450 - most of that due to a $190 fuel surcharge. A reasonable price of $200 is inflated by over 100%, but little of that is due to taxes.
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ACDC8
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RE: "Honest Pricing" Rules For Airline Ads

Sun Dec 18, 2011 1:08 am

Quoting YXD172 (Reply 32):
And, for those who are saying that it's just the government trying to hide how much taxes are, the taxes were disclosed on every receipt I saw.

And that is something so many people in this country just don't get. Its so simple, but they just don't get it.

Here's another great one ...

http://www.flightcentre.ca/flights/flightdetail/159572

Toronto to London $59 plus $522 in taxes, fees and surcharges. How can taxes, fees and surcharges add up to almost 10 times what the product/service advertised is selling for? It can't! Its is 100% false advertising and misleading in every possible way. And the airlines are not alone in this, but an electronic device or automotive part and watch the bill go up and up with all the taxes, fees and surcharges they add and add.
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cmf
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RE: "Honest Pricing" Rules For Airline Ads

Sun Dec 18, 2011 2:10 am

Quoting gemuser (Reply 31):
This is very arguable! In fact the Australian government has decided its where the service is delivered. That is why DL & UA HAVE to follow Australian rule for fares from Australia even though I seriously doubt UA.com or DL.com is located in Australia.

Which is why I said for the most part.

However, I just went to united.com and ask for a SYD - SFO price and they did not include taxes and fees. Maybe the do geographical tracking and include if for Australian IP addresses.
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
burnsie28
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RE: "Honest Pricing" Rules For Airline Ads

Sun Dec 18, 2011 3:14 pm

Taxes would be impossible to put into advertisements because they are so variable. It all depends on what flight a person takes to where. Where they may or may not connect, etc.
 
BlatantEcho
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RE: "Honest Pricing" Rules For Airline Ads

Sun Dec 18, 2011 3:55 pm

What a waste of legislation. I'm not Canadian, so maybe that is how you guys do things.

Aren't there more pressing issues to worry about than people being able to use their credit cards responsibly when buying stuff? Who doesn't check the final price before they hit go? Has it come to this, laws to protect us from ourselves?
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coolfish1103
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RE: "Honest Pricing" Rules For Airline Ads

Sun Dec 18, 2011 4:09 pm

What really should be done is what does buying a plane ticket cover? The government should regulate this.

There are way too many surcharges that has been created by the airlines to generate additional revenue to the point where the advertisement they have made are far misleading.

When a plane ticket is bought, it should allow one to be able to fly at least him or herself without any trouble. Basically it will be allow one person to travel to another place. Therefore, the price advertised should include..

- Fare itself
- Applicable taxes
- Applicable fees
- Total cost
- Complementary benefits

Fuel surcharges should be removed because an airline must include fuel in its basic cost in order to fly a plane. Having such thing as a surcharge on fuel makes absolutely non sense. If a fee is unavoidable in order to fly, then it should not be charged. If a credit card fee must be charged, then alternative options of using atm direct pay should be included (or simply include that in the fare). Fees like advance seat selections for conveniences are ok, but bathroom fees are not.

Let's say we fly from Vancouver to Los Angeles.

- One-way fare = $149.30
- Applicable taxes = $37.40 (should be the same across all airlines)
- Applicable fees = $16.35 (should be the same across all airlines)
- Total cost = $203.05
- Complimentary benefits = 1 personal item and 1 carry on luggage not weighing more than 18 kg and must be able to fit in the cabin drawer or underneath the seat in front of you. Item must be self placed with no help from flight attendant. Beverage and light snack will be served in flight at least once.

-or-

Vancouver to Tokyo Narita

- Round-trip fare = $870.10
- Applicable taxes = $46.40 (should be the same across all airlines)
- Applicable fees = $18.40 (should be the same across all airlines)
- Total cost = $934.90
- Complimentary benefits = 1 personal item and 1 carry on luggage not weighing more than 18 kg and must be able to fit in the cabin drawer or underneath the seat in front of you. Item must be self placed with no help from flight attendant. 1 checked luggage for free at maximum weight of 23 kg with dimension restrictions listed on the website. Beverage and meal will be served in flight at least once per flight.
 
cmf
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RE: "Honest Pricing" Rules For Airline Ads

Sun Dec 18, 2011 4:32 pm

Quoting burnsie28 (Reply 35):
Taxes would be impossible to put into advertisements because they are so variable. It all depends on what flight a person takes to where. Where they may or may not connect, etc.

If they can show a price then they can show it including taxes and fees.

Quoting coolfish1103 (Reply 37):
What really should be done is what does buying a plane ticket cover? The government should regulate this.

Absolutely. And for good measure include one bag.
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threepoint
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RE: "Honest Pricing" Rules For Airline Ads

Sun Dec 18, 2011 5:11 pm

Quoting BlatantEcho (Reply 36):
What a waste of legislation. I'm not Canadian, so maybe that is how you guys do things.
Aren't there more pressing issues to worry about than people being able to use their credit cards responsibly when buying stuff?

There certainly are, but we legislated gun control, same-sex marriage and the abolition of the death penalty,years ago.

[Edited 2011-12-18 09:11:57]

[Edited 2011-12-18 09:12:45]
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yyz717
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RE: "Honest Pricing" Rules For Airline Ads

Sun Dec 18, 2011 5:32 pm

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 2):
I would settle for the legal requirement to advertise a price that includes:
-base fare;
-unavoidable charges (taxes, fuel, etc...);
-cost of highest option when the passenger has to pick among several for a mandatory feature (eg: highest payment processing fee).

I agree taxes should always be broken out and visible or apparent. We should see the tax component every time we book a ticket...it's a necessary reminder of the cost of government in our lives (whether or not those taxes are directly related to the govt's cost of supporting commercial air traffic and related security).

Quoting coolfish1103 (Reply 37):
Fuel surcharges should be removed because an airline must include fuel in its basic cost in order to fly a plane.

I agree. Fuel surcharge breakout is meaningless since it rarely changes frequently enough to truly mirror changes in fuel prices above some mythical floor price that somehow your base fare covers.
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9252fly
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RE: "Honest Pricing" Rules For Airline Ads

Sun Dec 18, 2011 6:46 pm

In the past I've wondered why fuel surcharges exist? The only explanation that comes remotely close to being reasonable is that they are in place for airlines to avoid having to constantly refile their fares with IATA due to the volatility in jet fuel prices. On the surface,I do have a problem with the perceived 'bait and switch' that's a result of the fuel surcharges. I do like the idea of total price being advertised as it's much more transparent.
 
tcasalert
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RE: "Honest Pricing" Rules For Airline Ads

Sun Dec 18, 2011 6:57 pm

I am all for government/airport enforced taxes being shown seperately. However I draw the line at "Fuel Surcharges" and "Passenger Service Charges" and the like.

These are all part of the operating cost of the flight, and should be included in the initially offered fare. It is simply a way of the airlines raking in a bit of extra cash just because they can.

Something else that frustrates me when travelling with an infant, is you go through the booking process knowing that as an infant, the fare will usually be a nominal fee rather than the full fare (e.g. £50 for example). However, when giving you the price the airline then divides the fare 3 ways rather than 2, so "Only £500 per person", when the total fare is £1500, so in actual fact £750 per full fare paying pax. Very frustrating to get all the way through the booking and then find they are including in essence a "free" passenger in their maths.
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WestJet747
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RE: "Honest Pricing" Rules For Airline Ads

Sun Dec 18, 2011 7:37 pm

Quoting burnsie28 (Reply 35):
Taxes would be impossible to put into advertisements because they are so variable. It all depends on what flight a person takes to where. Where they may or may not connect, etc.

But wouldn't the fare they are advertising be a specific flight to a specific location? Therefore they certainly would be able to calculate the applicable taxes and include it in that advertised price. If it works in Australia (which it does) then it can most definitely work here, there;s no arguing that.

Quoting coolfish1103 (Reply 37):

  

Quoting threepoint (Reply 39):
Quoting BlatantEcho (Reply 36):
What a waste of legislation. I'm not Canadian, so maybe that is how you guys do things.
Aren't there more pressing issues to worry about than people being able to use their credit cards responsibly when buying stuff?

There certainly are, but we legislated gun control, same-sex marriage and the abolition of the death penalty,years ago.

Checkmate. I'm glad you responded first threepoint because I don't think I would have been as diplomatic in my response.
Flying refined.
 
MHG
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RE: "Honest Pricing" Rules For Airline Ads

Sun Dec 18, 2011 8:29 pm

Quoting 9252fly (Reply 41):
In the past I've wondered why fuel surcharges exist? The only explanation that comes remotely close to being reasonable is that they are in place for airlines to avoid having to constantly refile their fares with IATA due to the volatility in jet fuel prices. On the surface,I do have a problem with the perceived 'bait and switch' that's a result of the fuel surcharges. I do like the idea of total price being advertised as it's much more transparent.

Well, there´s another reason ...
When airlines started showing/adding surcharges/taxes to the fares it was at a time when "the plan" was to reduce commissions to be paid to travel agencies (was 9% of the ticket price then).
By separating taxes and charges from the base fare airlines were only required to pay commission from the fare although travel agents were still required to collect the total amount ... !
That was a huge blow to the travel agency industry.
This separating started in the U.S. and crossed the Atlantic a few years later.
It has since developped to an insane level of misleading customers about the true cost of travel.

Travel agents have since introduced service charges to overcome the losses due to the already common 0% commission in most if not all western countries but are still struggling to stay afloat.

I would not complain if true taxes wer shown separately and the rest be included in the fare price.

It is simply unresonable to charge e.g. for 1 piece of luggage as travelling involves bringing some basic neccessities (like clothes/cosmetics) with you.

As well as charging for any sort of payment ...
That would be similar to your supermarket at home charging you extra just for using the check-out (even if paying with cash)
There are simply a few things that are connected with travelling by air that are not supposed to be extracted from the fare.
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Gemuser
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RE: "Honest Pricing" Rules For Airline Ads

Sun Dec 18, 2011 11:23 pm

Quoting cmf (Reply 34):
However, I just went to united.com and ask for a SYD - SFO price and they did not include taxes and fees. Maybe the do geographical tracking and include if for Australian IP addresses.

Exactly and you won't always get the same fare as someone in Australia does.

Gemuser
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cmf
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RE: "Honest Pricing" Rules For Airline Ads

Mon Dec 19, 2011 1:33 am

Quoting gemuser (Reply 45):
Exactly and you won't always get the same fare as someone in Australia does.

So minimum work for United to enable it for Canada.

But I'll stand by my original statement  
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
YYZYYT
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RE: "Honest Pricing" Rules For Airline Ads

Mon Dec 19, 2011 6:38 am

Quoting multimark (Reply 28):
Of course this is more convenient for the Federal Government than the consumer. Now the consumer doesn't see how much the Feds are ripping them off by adding outrageous taxes to airline tickets, it will all be buried in the price.

Think of it this way: most of the "outrageous" taxes and fees that are added pay for the infrastrucutre and operations of the system (airport fees, security fees, Nav Can, etc) that makes it possible for me and Jr. to fly off on our vacaiton. If those weren't added to the ticket, they would paid out of general revenue, which means all of the income taxes that you and (unfortunately) I pay. They would be even further "hidden" in the general scheme of things, and paid by all tax payers, not the person using the service. Unless government gets out of the business of air traffic control and running airports...

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 29):
The purpose of this regulation is to change how airlines advertise fares. When you purchase the ticket you will still be able to see a breakdown of the various fees and taxes.

That is the point which is getting lost. this is about advertising (i.e., putting fair and accurate information to the consumer). This is not about disclosing the taxes you pay when you actually make your decision (heck, it can even be broken down in the fare quote if the airline wants as far as I care, as long as the actual price is accurately represented).
 
Viscount724
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RE: "Honest Pricing" Rules For Airline Ads

Mon Dec 19, 2011 6:05 pm

Quoting 9252fly (Reply 41):
The only explanation that comes remotely close to being reasonable is that they are in place for airlines to avoid having to constantly refile their fares with IATA due to the volatility in jet fuel prices.

Airlines don't file fares with IATA. You are probably thinking of ATPCO, the airline-owned company located near IAD airport that compiles and distributes fare data to GDS systems and (where necessary) to governments.

It's true that it is much cheaper to be able to file fuel surcharges as flat amounts to be added to fares rather than having to refile tens of thousands of individual fares whenever the fuel surcharge is changed. Airlines pay a few cents to ATPCO for every individual fare filed on their behalf.
 
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longhauler
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RE: "Honest Pricing" Rules For Airline Ads

Mon Dec 19, 2011 7:26 pm

It is no different than a lot of other industries.

I recently bought a Ford Ranger for my nephew. On top of the advertised price was $1000.00+ for "freight and delivery", also about $300.00+ for "dealer prep and administration". Can I purchase the vehicle without those "options"? No.

So why then isn't in the advertised price?

I feel this legislation should go further than just airlines.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!