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WALmsp
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CNN: EAS - Lifeline Or Waste?

Sat Dec 17, 2011 9:40 pm

According to my search, this topic has not been discussed in the near-past.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/12/15/travel...ered-airports/index.html?hpt=hp_c1

How about a limit? $42 subsidy per passenger sounds acceptable, but $3000+ is extreme. Set up a max per passenger subsidy; anything beyond that is up to local airports if they feel service is essential.
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cslusarc
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RE: CNN: EAS - Lifeline Or Waste?

Sat Dec 17, 2011 10:28 pm

One, should the subsidy exceed the pro-rate fare for the subsidized segment that the passenger pays? I think not.
Two, is the 90 mile minimum radius from a medium and large hub enough distance to be a significant deterrent against using ground transportation? I've heard of stories where people are willing to drive hours to save $400+ per passenger on air fare when they travel on WN.
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BMI727
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RE: CNN: EAS - Lifeline Or Waste?

Sat Dec 17, 2011 10:55 pm

Quoting WALmsp (Thread starter):
How about a limit?

No. How about we deep-six the whole program and let the market determine service levels they way it should.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
SuseJ772
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RE: CNN: EAS - Lifeline Or Waste?

Sat Dec 17, 2011 11:17 pm

Quoting cslusarc (Reply 1):
Two, is the 90 mile minimum radius from a medium and large hub enough distance to be a significant deterrent against using ground transportation?

Except what I don't understand is that Athens (AHN) is in that list of airports and it is only 58nm from ATL and 84 miles via car. So HOW does that get in the list?

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 2):
No. How about we deep-six the whole program and let the market determine service levels they way it should.

I go back and forth on it. I can't decide.
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kalvado
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RE: CNN: EAS - Lifeline Or Waste?

Sat Dec 17, 2011 11:39 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 2):
No. How about we deep-six the whole program and let the market determine service levels they way it should.

Not everyone lives in NYC, not everyone works on Wall street and enjoys a choice of 3 airport for vacation trip.
Market may decide that INL needs no service - but same market would decide beef should be $20/pound and toilet paper should be $5/roll to cover inconvenience of those actually producing the goods and having limited access to the rest of the world.
Saying "everyone is free to move" is true, if one particular person is considered - but may become a huge issue if everyone in the country choose to move to one of 10 major cities. Someone must live in small towns all over the country to mine coal, grow corn, cotton etc. to support those big cities.
There need to be a balance somewhere - neither completely closing EAS nor subsidizing everyone is a good idea. Per-pax cap (edit - probably cap depending on driving distance to a bigger airport) may actually work.

[Edited 2011-12-17 15:43:31]
 
BMI727
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RE: CNN: EAS - Lifeline Or Waste?

Sat Dec 17, 2011 11:55 pm

Quoting kalvado (Reply 4):
Not everyone lives in NYC, not everyone works on Wall street and enjoys a choice of 3 airport for vacation trip.

And not everyone has the privilege of paying incredible New York prices either. You get a set of advantages and disadvantages either way.

Quoting kalvado (Reply 4):
Someone must live in small towns all over the country to mine coal, grow corn, cotton etc. to support those big cities.

And people will, because it will be a net positive for them. And they can travel by either subsidizing flights themselves, being a big enough market to support flights, or driving to larger airports. EAS is unnecessary and wasteful.
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mffoda
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RE: CNN: EAS - Lifeline Or Waste?

Sat Dec 17, 2011 11:57 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 2):
No. How about we deep-six the whole program and let the market determine service levels they way it should.

I generally try to stay away from discussions like this, But... BINGO! Your exactly right BMI727...

I'm not saying that we should deny critical medical services from hard to reach communities... But, If you plan to live in the F-ing Boonies away from work / civilization? Then plan on Paddling/ walking your ASS to the nearest for profit facility that can support your Tree hugging lifestyle!  
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intsim
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RE: CNN: EAS - Lifeline Or Waste?

Sun Dec 18, 2011 3:36 am

Quoting mffoda (Reply 6):
I'm not saying that we should deny critical medical services from hard to reach communities... But, If you plan to live in the F-ing Boonies away from work / civilization? Then plan on Paddling/ walking your ASS to the nearest for profit facility that can support your Tree hugging lifestyle!

At least a few EAS cities in my state do not have many trees. I spoke with a 1900 pilot commuting to BIL in SLC a month ago. She said most passengers were business people coming into these communities. As mentioned above Oil, Coal, Ag, not just people living as one in nature.
 
Jerseyguy
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RE: CNN: EAS - Lifeline Or Waste?

Sun Dec 18, 2011 4:55 am

Even though I live off a major highway in the Boston-New York-Philadelphia-Baltimore-Washington DC Megalopolis, I still have to travel an hour and a half to the nearest airport with commerical service (unless you want to count TTN with Streamline Air which goes to Bedford, MA near Boston (no connection opportunities there) ). So now I pay city prices for food and clothes. Some of the highest taxes (property,etc) in the country and I still have to drive just as far as some of the EAS stations would have to if they didn't have EAS. EAS needs at a minimum stricter rules to serve communities that truly need EAS.

Examples of EAS that need to be cut
Athens, GA only 1 1/2 hours to Atlanta $1M of subsidies
Decatur, IL only 1 hour from Springfield, IL $3M of subsidies


Hagerstown, MD 1:30 to Harrisburg, PA 1:30-1:45 to Baltimore $1.2M in subsidies
Thief River Falls, MN 1:30 to Grand Forks, ND $1.2M in subsidies
Johnstown, PA 1:30 to Pittsburgh, PA $1.6M
Lancaster, PA 1 hr to Harrisburg, PA 1:30 to Philadelphia, PA 1:45 to BWI $1.3M
Hibbing/Chisholm, MN 1:30 to Duluth, MN $2.9M
El Centro, CA 1 hr to Yuma, AZ $1.8M


Cresent City, CA 1:30 to Eureka, CA $1.7M
Jonesboro, AR 1:15-1:30 to Memphis, TN $836K
Muscle Shoals, AL 1:15 to Huntsville, AL $2.5M

[Edited 2011-12-17 21:38:32]
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usxguy
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RE: CNN: EAS - Lifeline Or Waste?

Sun Dec 18, 2011 8:26 am

Decatur is actually only 30 minutes to Springfield... at least how I drive...
xx
 
Jerseyguy
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RE: CNN: EAS - Lifeline Or Waste?

Sun Dec 18, 2011 8:36 am

Actually google maps says 47 minutes I believe I was trying to be overly fair
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Goldenshield
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RE: CNN: EAS - Lifeline Or Waste?

Sun Dec 18, 2011 1:47 pm

Quoting Jerseyguy (Reply 8):
Cresent City, CA 1:30 to Eureka, CA $1.7M

EAS only covers CEC-SFO. ACV-CEC (and CEC-ACV in the afternoon) is a tag-on, but it is not subsidized.
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coronado
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RE: CNN: EAS - Lifeline Or Waste?

Sun Dec 18, 2011 2:00 pm

You can't only think about the location of a current EAS airport in relationship to the next major airport, such as the distance from Hibbing to Duluth. You also need to factor in the towns that are further away such as Ely (which is a tourist and forestry town), Babbit (which is coming back as a strong mining town), etc, and that currently use Hibbing as their airport. I do agree however that the government should apply a mathematical model which may include the possibility of building new super regional airports located so as to service communities within 120 minutes (or 90 minutes if in areas subject to bad winter weather) driving time. Small communities do have a role in the overall economy of the country and there are jobs such as mining, forestry and agriculture that can't exactly be done in midtown Manhattan. Those activities then require communities to support them: equipment dealers, mechanics, trucking terminals, power distribution, cable repairment, etc etc and then all the ancillary businesses needed to support a population: stores, etc.

This could entail closing some airports and building a mathematically calculated new airport location able to service a sphere around it.
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BlatantEcho
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RE: CNN: EAS - Lifeline Or Waste?

Sun Dec 18, 2011 3:59 pm

The entire premise of the program is ridiculous, the more the government gets involved, the higher our prices go and the worse the service is.

Also: this is one of the more hilarious things I've read on a.net in 10 years. Touche.

Quoting mffoda (Reply 6):
If you plan to live in the F-ing Boonies away from work / civilization? Then plan on Paddling/ walking your ASS to the nearest for profit facility
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packcheer
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RE: CNN: EAS - Lifeline Or Waste?

Sun Dec 18, 2011 4:17 pm

First, I agree that EAS needs to be seriously reconsidered.

But for all of you quoting Athens as less than 90 miles to ATL...

Have any of you seriously tried to drive that? It took me an hour and ten minutes to get to ATL from Georgia Tech in the middle of the afternoon. Forget about running into any significant rush hour traffic.

Athens to ATL (the airport) can easily be a 2 hour drive.
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DfwRevolution
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RE: CNN: EAS - Lifeline Or Waste?

Sun Dec 18, 2011 4:19 pm

Quoting mffoda (Reply 6):
I'm not saying that we should deny critical medical services from hard to reach communities... But, If you plan to live in the F-ing Boonies away from work / civilization? Then plan on Paddling/ walking your ASS to the nearest for profit facility that can support your Tree hugging lifestyle!  

        

I have lived in three dense metro areas over 4 million in population and two rural areas less than 20,000 in population. There are pro's and con's of living in both. Subsidies like EAS, rural broadband internet, and so forth smack of trying to have your cake and eat it too. I don't believe your entitled to have the best of both worlds at the expense of everyone else.
 
canyonblue17
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RE: CNN: EAS - Lifeline Or Waste?

Sun Dec 18, 2011 4:26 pm

Does Alaska have EAS? I watch that "Flying Alaska" show and there is no talk about the flights being EAS and yet there appears to be enough demand to keep this small airline in operation. And if ever there was a place that needs ESSENTIAL air service - it was would Alaska - where in most towns there are no other transportation options.
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ltbewr
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RE: CNN: EAS - Lifeline Or Waste?

Sun Dec 18, 2011 4:28 pm

Far too much of the EAS is about politics, not economics, about appeasing certain powerful interests nationally and in the districts. There are some location that due to poor or no roads, distance, weather/climate, variable demand, that can justify the EAS. If it is more about access to people from access to mail, packages, access to health care, then a reaonable subsidy is acceptable. If the subsidy is more for a corporate interest, that is wrong and the companies involved should pay the necessary fare or pay the subsidy. Perhaps what is needed is a stronger non-partisan commission who will make the EAS decisions based on reasonale economic and justifiable other reasons.
 
DiamondFlyer
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RE: CNN: EAS - Lifeline Or Waste?

Sun Dec 18, 2011 4:33 pm

Quoting canyonblue17 (Reply 16):
Does Alaska have EAS? I watch that "Flying Alaska" show and there is no talk about the flights being EAS and yet there appears to be enough demand to keep this small airline in operation.

Alaska is all EAS. Basically everything is EAS up there, which, is probably one that needs to stay how it is.

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Mir
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RE: CNN: EAS - Lifeline Or Waste?

Sun Dec 18, 2011 4:39 pm

Quoting packcheer (Reply 14):
Athens to ATL (the airport) can easily be a 2 hour drive.

Which is not unreasonable, especially when you consider what's at the other end. You'd probably save time driving to ATL vs. waiting for a flight from AHN to ATL and then waiting for the onward connection. Athens should be able to support service on its own anyway, what with the university there and all the stuff that goes with it.

I can understand EAS for certain communities (such as International Falls) which are truly in the middle of nowhere, but if you're two hours or less from an airport that can sustain service on its own, I can't justify the expense in the current financial situation.

-Mir
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canyonblue17
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RE: CNN: EAS - Lifeline Or Waste?

Sun Dec 18, 2011 4:53 pm

How did many of these cities that get EAS exist before air travel?
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BMI727
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RE: CNN: EAS - Lifeline Or Waste?

Sun Dec 18, 2011 6:10 pm

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 18):
Alaska is all EAS. Basically everything is EAS up there, which, is probably one that needs to stay how it is

Not really. They can either pick up the bill themselves or move elsewhere.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
FlyPNS1
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RE: CNN: EAS - Lifeline Or Waste?

Sun Dec 18, 2011 6:14 pm

Quoting canyonblue17 (Reply 20):
How did many of these cities that get EAS exist before air travel?

In the regulated era, fares were much higher and there was little real competition. Carriers could do milk runs that would stop at many small towns and only pick up a few people at each airport.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 21):

Not really. They can either pick up the bill themselves or move elsewhere.

Agreed, but not going to happen. Alaskan's love their government pork more than most.
 
BMI727
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RE: CNN: EAS - Lifeline Or Waste?

Sun Dec 18, 2011 6:19 pm

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 22):
Agreed, but not going to happen. Alaskan's love their government pork more than most.

Maybe if they all chipped in their reverse income tax they wouldn't need our money.
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KingFriday013
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RE: CNN: EAS - Lifeline Or Waste?

Sun Dec 18, 2011 7:30 pm

This isn't the first time I'm asking this question, and I will ask it again: why can't EAS be replaced with subsidies to Greyhound?

Contrary to popular belief, Greyhound service has really improved in recent years (particularly in the Northeast, but the improvements are spreading throughout the country). They're doing well in spite of the economy, have consistently reasonable fares, and provide access to city centers (instead of, or in some cases IN ADDITION TO, airports which are usually located several miles outside of a city).

Looking at a Google map and just going by what "looks" big, here's a route that could work in regards to the CNN article: http://g.co/maps/6kpge It begins from the Greyhound station in Minneapolis, goes to the existing Greyhound stop in Duluth, and continues through Chisholm and finally International Falls. GLI could even contract the driving out to Jefferson Lines (one of their contractor carriers in the region). MSP to DLH currently has 4 departures on a random Thursday, with all of them being operated by JL (one of them starts as GLI but requires a transfer in Eau Claire to a JL operator). Greyhound could easily run one or two buses a day on their own metal all the way to International Falls. If they were to do this, it could even be extended to Winnipeg with a driver swap in INL to Greyhound Canada.

From what I can tell, Greyhound could already afford to do this on their own. Firstgroup plc (FGP.L) closed on Friday 90 cents down -- at $323.60. That's higher than most of the major airlines in America combined. They would also be able to do this for a much lower cost than air carriers, as buses are generally cheaper to operate. They also hold a lot more people than the planes that go to these EAS cities. The majority of the Greyhound fleet can carry at least 50 passengers, which could pick up/drop off passengers over multiple stops on the way to a major city. This certainly works better between 34 seats that travel between two cities regardless of them being full. If the government wants to contribute to Greyhound to operate these routes, I'm sure that would only make things better (increased frequency or even getting more buses upgraded).

A lot of people say that buses are nasty and they will only fly. I just fail to understand how a bus, with a cabin that is two full inches wider than a CRJ-200, seats that offer greater legroom and recline, a lavatory you can actually fit inside, overhead bins that can hold normal-sized luggage, and an increasing number of buses with power outlets and free wi-fi, just HOW is this worse than a Saab or a Cessna? The worst thing that could possibly happen is a bus gets subbed with a MC-9/12 (these older buses do a lot better than most in the snow -- although I think only GLC has these now), and you can bet the Saab won't be flying at this point!

Is it the other passengers? They, like you, just want to get where they need to go. Just how many people in these areas (EAS regions) do you dislike having onboard your Delta Connection flight? THESE will be your fellow Greyhound passengers. Have a fear of buses? Think of it as a plane without wings, but has bigger windows and is generally nicer.

Greyhound's website has a lot more information. Check it out!

~~~

I noticed someone further up in the thread mention an EAS city being 2 hours from Atlanta. I'm 20 years old. If I can drive from New York to ROC (a 6 to 7+ hour drive depending on traffic) with a single 5-minute stop for gas... why can't one drive for two hours (including sitting in traffic for 30 minutes)?! Stop if you must, if you feel it's too much, but why should the rest of the country have to pay for that? This, too, is a PERFECT example of where Greyhound service would work. They could even make an additional stop at the ATL airport, AND you could leave your car at home.

Like others have said, cities within 2 or 3 hours of non-EAS airports (well, airports that classify between basic non-EAS cities and up to and including major hubs), that can be driven. I think up to 6 hours away from a major city or hub should get Greyhound service (and perhaps with stops in those smaller cities I just mentioned). More than 6 hours away? Then you're truly in BFE (and I don't mean Germany) and deserve your Biscoff cookie.

-J.
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Kaphias
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RE: CNN: EAS - Lifeline Or Waste?

Sun Dec 18, 2011 7:34 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 21):
Not really. They can either pick up the bill themselves or move elsewhere.

And until you've actually lived here, all your talk is meaningless. Go visit these rural communities, live there for a couple months, study their history, meet the people. Then I'll gladly listen to your informed opinion.
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usxguy
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RE: CNN: EAS - Lifeline Or Waste?

Sun Dec 18, 2011 7:40 pm

Quoting canyonblue17 (Reply 16):
Does Alaska have EAS? I watch that "Flying Alaska" show and there is no talk about the flights being EAS and yet there appears to be enough demand to keep this small airline in operation. And if ever there was a place that needs ESSENTIAL air service - it was would Alaska - where in most towns there are no other transportation options.

EAS in Alaska is quite efficient... most bids are for $15k-$250k, you don't get the $3 million subsidies up here that you see in places in 'America'. Alaska EAS is only about $10 million a year... so just 4 of the former Delta communities subsidies cover an entire state twice the size of Texas....

And Diamond, your statement is quite stretched. Have you even BEEN to the Alaska bush? A large majority of in-state passengers are not flown on EAS routes, and a significant amount of our EAS is not 2 daily flights (like you have down south). Many of the smaller villages only get 2 to 4 flights *a week*, and some are lucky to get them in a plane the size of a Cessna 207....
xx
 
DiamondFlyer
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RE: CNN: EAS - Lifeline Or Waste?

Sun Dec 18, 2011 7:51 pm

Quoting usxguy (Reply 26):
And Diamond, your statement is quite stretched. Have you even BEEN to the Alaska bush?

No I have not. In terms of number of destinations served, there are a heck of a lot more places served in Alaska than anywhere else. I really don't know how it works up there and don't care to. I've got zero issues with EAS funding for Alaska, unlike many of the rest of the states with EAS.

-DiamondFlyer
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2175301
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RE: CNN: EAS - Lifeline Or Waste?

Sun Dec 18, 2011 8:43 pm

Several years ago when this was being discussed I looked at all the locations being served and came to the conclusion that about 75% of them should be dropped just due to their location to other commercial airports.

I typically drive 1.75 hours (105 minutes) to get to Milwaukee just because the rates are much better than Green Bay (50 minutes from here).

Have a great day,
 
Cubsrule
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RE: CNN: EAS - Lifeline Or Waste?

Sun Dec 18, 2011 9:08 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 19):
You'd probably save time driving to ATL vs. waiting for a flight from AHN to ATL and then waiting for the onward connection. Athens should be able to support service on its own anyway, what with the university there and all the stuff that goes with it.

  

And it's not just AHN (which is an example everyone uses).

BRD and FOD are just a couple of hours from MSP. TBN and COU (now off subsidy) are a similar distance to STL.

If we are going to have EAS, I think the minimum driving distance should be something like 150 miles. Otherwise, what's the point of making an hour or two connection and then flying for an hour? It's no wonder they can't fill the airplanes.
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BMI727
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RE: CNN: EAS - Lifeline Or Waste?

Sun Dec 18, 2011 11:54 pm

Quoting Kaphias (Reply 25):
And until you've actually lived here, all your talk is meaningless. Go visit these rural communities, live there for a couple months, study their history, meet the people. Then I'll gladly listen to your informed opinion.

What is so special about those places and people that they should be allowed to use our money for their travel? Especially when they get to bank some of their state's oil money each year? If they need the subsidies so badly, they can pony up the cash themselves.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
Cubsrule
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RE: CNN: EAS - Lifeline Or Waste?

Sun Dec 18, 2011 11:56 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 30):
What is so special about those places and people that they should be allowed to use our money for their travel? Especially when they get to bank some of their state's oil money each year? If they need the subsidies so badly, they can pony up the cash themselves.

Here's the cynical answer: rural America always has been subsidized and likely always will be subsidized. EAS is the least bad subsidy (much better than, for instance, bridges to nowhere).
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RWA380
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RE: CNN: EAS - Lifeline Or Waste?

Mon Dec 19, 2011 12:56 am

EAS just means you get air service, not that your going to get a bargain rate. These communities population get the luck of infrequent, high priced air service or drive like the rest of us. No wonder most of the EAS services are flown by business travellers whose companies are paying.

Why can't a private bus company take small amounts of travelers to the next largest airport instead?

The example I'm familier with, but is not an EAS city is RDM. There are flights between PDX & RDM on 2 carriers, but there is also a van/bus company called Central Oregon Breeze, they go twice daily between Roberts field and PDX, the r/t is about 100.00 USD. Yes it's a 3 hour drive as opposed to a 25 minute flight, but why can't that kind of enterprise work for EAS cities? It would cost much less to operate, and not gouge the passengers.
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Goldenshield
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RE: CNN: EAS - Lifeline Or Waste?

Mon Dec 19, 2011 1:06 am

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 32):
Why can't a private bus company take small amounts of travelers to the next largest airport instead?

There are already scheduled shuttle services that do just that. My city has 3(!) such services that do just that, to major airports in two cities.

Of course, the majority of people on this forum only fly from big city to big city, and as such, have no need, want, or care to ever take notice of that, and only assume that the train and bus are the only other forms of public transportation that exist.
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KingFriday013
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RE: CNN: EAS - Lifeline Or Waste?

Mon Dec 19, 2011 1:31 am

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 32):

If you read through my somewhat-too-long post

Quoting KingFriday013 (Reply 24):

you'll see I completely agree with you. I only suggested Greyhound because they exist all over the country, so they could deal with the same people for all locations. Also, a lot of Greyhound routes are operated by contracted carriers. I checked out COBreeze and the route goes from Portland to Bend, OR. Greyhound (while serving different intermediate stops) also does that route, with a transfer in Salem to a Valley Retriever Buslines operated bus. If Greyhound had the means to expand their service, it could easily replace EAS and do a very good job at it too.

What about other regional carriers? A lot of them operate Greyhound routes anyway, so this would benefit them as well; it just provides the government with an easy, single party to deal with rather than going to all the different carriers. For example, in the northeast, I know Greyhound interlines with: the three Trailways of New York (Adirondack, New York, and Pine Hill), Peter Pan, Concord Coach, Lakefront Lines, Bonanza, John T Cyr & Sons. I think there are more.

This could also be an opportunity for companies like StageCoach (CoachUSA, MegaBus) and CoachAmerica as well, as those are also options for bus service. Will we see double-decker TD925s in small villages? Hopefully not. However, a 45-60 passenger bus traveling through the area once or twice a day (or more!) would certainly suffice, regardless of the carrier. I only suggested Greyhound because they cover much more area in the country and have more on-board amenities than other bus companies I'm familiar with.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks buses could work  

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 33):
Of course, the majority of people on this forum only fly from big city to big city, and as such, have no need, want, or care to ever take notice of that, and only assume that the train and bus are the only other forms of public transportation that exist.

Exactly!!! Who would have thought that a bus could be nicer than a plane or train?    (Just as an example, instead of sitting in an older Amfleet railcar for seven hours, I took a 3-month old Prevost H3 (which is actually a top-of-the-line touring coach) operated by NY Trailways from ROC to NYC in September.)

Greyhound has caught up with the times; what about the American people?

-J.

[Edited 2011-12-18 17:36:53]

[Edited 2011-12-18 18:18:50]
Tho' I've belted you an' flayed you, By the livin' Gawd that made you, You're a better man than I am, Gunga Din!
 
DesertAir
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RE: CNN: EAS - Lifeline Or Waste?

Mon Dec 19, 2011 1:57 am

It seems to me that some rural areas are in absolute need of EAS. But it seems like this is also a Pork Barrel program used by some politicians. Stockton, CA is denied EAS funds because of its proximity to SMF, about 45 miles north and to MOD about 30 miles south. These types of communities that need low frequency but reliable service would be great for small start up companies.
 
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RWA380
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RE: CNN: EAS - Lifeline Or Waste?

Mon Dec 19, 2011 2:04 am

Quoting KingFriday013 (Reply 34):

The one thing I like about Central Oregon Breeze is they operate from the airport terminals in RDM & PDX, which makes catching flights very easy. Greyhound used to operate to Bend from Portland, however apparantly there is a law here in Oregon, that does not allow two bus companies to operate on the same route. Since the only reasonable route between Bend and Portland is Hwy 26, Greyhound offers that odd routing via Salem and another bus compay. In fact here in Oregon Greyhound has pulled a lot of cities off their route map. They used to operate a bus from Portland down Hwy 26 to the coast and then down the 101, stopping in all those coastal communities, but no longer.
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atrude777
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RE: CNN: EAS - Lifeline Or Waste?

Mon Dec 19, 2011 2:10 am

Quoting KingFriday013 (Reply 34):

Greyhound has caught up with the times; what about the American people?

Speaking of times...that's the very reason. Planes fly faster then Greyhound drives.

If you add the multiple pick up stops you mentioned, like we did from...

MWA-STL, a 2 hr drive-ish.
40 minute flight.

If a greyhound drives from Marion to St. Louis and picks up people on the way, that 2 hour drive gets extended farther and farther and now it becomes 3 hours or more to ride the bus to the airport. What's the point now? We fly the route so we don't spend TIME getting there.

The gov't pays for EAS because of time, it is faster, I would gladly have my taxes go towards EAS because it is faster, why would we transfer our tax money to buses, that go the same speed as our cars?

We are paying for the time.

Alex
Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
 
Cubsrule
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RE: CNN: EAS - Lifeline Or Waste?

Mon Dec 19, 2011 2:15 am

Quoting KingFriday013 (Reply 34):
Will we see double-decker TD925s in small villages? Hopefully not. However, a 45-60 passenger bus traveling through the area once or twice a day (or more!) would certainly suffice, regardless of the carrier. I only suggested Greyhound because they cover much more area in the country and have more on-board amenities than other bus companies I'm familiar with.

I think you may have hit on part of the problem - buses are big, especially nice buses. A lot of EAS markets see 40 or 50 passengers per day on a good day. And if you start adding stops to increase the passenger count, the bus necessarily gets slower and slower.
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atrude777
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RE: CNN: EAS - Lifeline Or Waste?

Mon Dec 19, 2011 2:31 am

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 38):

I think you may have hit on part of the problem - buses are big, especially nice buses. A lot of EAS markets see 40 or 50 passengers per day on a good day. And if you start adding stops to increase the passenger count, the bus necessarily gets slower and slower.

Exactly, which was part of my post above.

Keep increasing the bus stops...you just add supporting points for why EAS is around, to reduce time spent traveling.

I don't support EAS nor am I against it. I don't mind that my Taxes are going towards EAS. I utilize EAS myself every time I travel to support the airline and community. If they take it away, I'll be disappointed and just drive to STL, but as long as it is around I will continue to use it and support it and do every time when the schedule works.

Alex
Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
 
rampart
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RE: CNN: EAS - Lifeline Or Waste?

Mon Dec 19, 2011 2:36 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 30):
What is so special about those places and people that they should be allowed to use our money for their travel?

What's so special about suburban Chicago or Washington or Atlanta that they get interstate highway beltways? They use my money for their highways. Lots of traffic, lots of people. Maybe they should move to more rural areas, less crowding, less inefficient traffic. They'd probably want air service, though.

Infrastracture costs. Transportation is a public good, some economic segments try to make a profit of it, but it's still a public good. Progress means air travel is the standard. Those of you suggesting Greyhound Bus subsidies? Surely stagecoach would be cheaper.

-Rampart
 
KingFriday013
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RE: CNN: EAS - Lifeline Or Waste?

Mon Dec 19, 2011 2:42 am

Quoting DesertAir (Reply 35):
Stockton, CA is denied EAS funds because of its proximity to SMF, about 45 miles north and to MOD about 30 miles south. These types of communities that need low frequency but reliable service would be great for small start up companies.

Google Maps says Stockton Metropolitan to SMF is an hour and 14 minutes. Why does such a short distance have to have air service? If it were up to me, I wouldn't give them EAS funds either. Greyhound has 8 daily departures for $20 each way (one of them is operated by Cruceros), with the longest route blocked at an hour and 10.

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 36):
Greyhound used to operate to Bend from Portland, however apparantly there is a law here in Oregon, that does not allow two bus companies to operate on the same route.

That really helps me understand the situation a lot better. What's the reason for that law? I bet that law exists elsewhere, too, and that's why GLI doesn't do routes like this. Something else I just thought of: can Central Oregon Breeze interline with Greyhound? That is, can Greyhound sell tickets for COBreeze routes like they do with Trailways here in New York? The only reasons I can see that not working is if COBreeze isn't prepared to handle so many more passengers (you mentioned they use vans as well, which I don't think would work), or because of that law.

Going from Toronto to Rochester back in April, I ended up on local routes the whole way back (GLC through BUF, then a NYT operator on a GLI bus to ROC). The GLC bus actually stopped in front of baggage claim at BUF.

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 36):
They used to operate a bus from Portland down Hwy 26 to the coast and then down the 101, stopping in all those coastal communities, but no longer.

Since retiring all the MC-12s, I think their overall fleet count is slightly down. With some extra cash (maybe EAS-like subsidies? *hint hint*), routes like that have a chance of coming back.

-J.
Tho' I've belted you an' flayed you, By the livin' Gawd that made you, You're a better man than I am, Gunga Din!
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: CNN: EAS - Lifeline Or Waste?

Mon Dec 19, 2011 2:45 am

I really don't get it, even if someone has to drive 4 hours to the nearest airport, is that too much to ask? 4 hours in a car? Really? First world problems IMO. I can see some EAS in Alaska but let the Alaskan government handle that
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KingFriday013
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RE: CNN: EAS - Lifeline Or Waste?

Mon Dec 19, 2011 2:52 am

Quoting atrude777 (Reply 37):
MWA-STL, a 2 hr drive-ish.

That's totally driveable. Some days I drive 2 hours (due to traffic) just to get to school.

Quoting atrude777 (Reply 37):
If a greyhound drives from Marion to St. Louis and picks up people on the way, that 2 hour drive gets extended farther and farther and now it becomes 3 hours or more to ride the bus to the airport. What's the point now? We fly the route so we don't spend TIME getting there.

Actually, Greyhound already does that route and picks people up on the way, too. With the current express stop in Carbondale 25 minutes in (express means it's a gas station or a street corner), it's a 2h20 trip. If that's too long, the rest of the country shouldn't have to cover so much of your trip.

Quoting atrude777 (Reply 37):
I would gladly have my taxes go towards EAS because it is faster,

I would have liked some help too when I commuted to NYC from Rochester instead of paying for flights myself. ROC isn't EAS of course, but it is more than twice the distance of MWA-STL. Like I mentioned before, I've also driven NYC-ROC (nearly) nonstop.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 38):

I think you may have hit on part of the problem - buses are big, especially nice buses. A lot of EAS markets see 40 or 50 passengers per day on a good day. And if you start adding stops to increase the passenger count, the bus necessarily gets slower and slower.

Two buses is still cheaper than one plane, even with all costs considered (one driver vs. 2-3 crew, no landing fees other than what it costs to plant a sign in the ground). You don't need to add too many stops, just where it's really needed. The INL example is a bit of a stretch, but Chisholm is under two hours from Duluth. Why must that be flown?

Quoting rampart (Reply 40):
Those of you suggesting Greyhound Bus subsidies? Surely stagecoach would be cheaper.

I might have misunderstood this, but are you saying Stagecoach generally charges less than Greyhound? I'm not so familiar with Stagecoach companies so I wouldn't know, but I'd expect them to be similar.

If EAS money was going to bus lines instead of airlines, we could see more daily departures at better times to and from these cities (again, in convenient city centers instead of (or in addition to) airport stops) on nicer buses. Surely legroom, wifi, power outlets, and more than enough room for bags beats ducking down while entering a Saab? I'd wake up an hour early for benefits like that.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 42):
I really don't get it, even if someone has to drive 4 hours to the nearest airport, is that too much to ask? 4 hours in a car? Really? First world problems IMO. I can see some EAS in Alaska but let the Alaskan government handle that

 checkmark   checkmark   checkmark   thumbsup 

-J.

[Edited 2011-12-18 18:53:03]
Tho' I've belted you an' flayed you, By the livin' Gawd that made you, You're a better man than I am, Gunga Din!
 
Cubsrule
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RE: CNN: EAS - Lifeline Or Waste?

Mon Dec 19, 2011 2:56 am

Quoting KingFriday013 (Reply 43):
You don't need to add too many stops, just where it's really needed.

So we're driving empty buses rather than flying empty planes. Why is that superior? In your worldview, it's a waste of money either way.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
BMI727
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RE: CNN: EAS - Lifeline Or Waste?

Mon Dec 19, 2011 3:01 am

Quoting rampart (Reply 40):
What's so special about suburban Chicago or Washington or Atlanta that they get interstate highway beltways? They use my money for their highways. Lots of traffic, lots of people. Maybe they should move to more rural areas, less crowding, less inefficient traffic. They'd probably want air service, though.

These places all have airports, obviously. EAS is like me demanding that the government buy me a car since I have to drive to school or work.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 42):
I can see some EAS in Alaska but let the Alaskan government handle that

If a particular group of people really feels that they need air service that badly, they should have no problems finding the money to subsidize it. It isn't like airlines are going to turn down checks that aren't from the federal government.

Quoting KingFriday013 (Reply 43):
(one driver vs. 2-3 crew, no landing fees other than what it costs to plant a sign in the ground)

I think a lot of EAS carriers use only one pilot. And I doubt they get paid more than bus drivers either.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
KingFriday013
Posts: 879
Joined: Fri May 18, 2007 7:56 am

RE: CNN: EAS - Lifeline Or Waste?

Mon Dec 19, 2011 3:05 am

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 44):
So we're driving empty buses rather than flying empty planes. Why is that superior? In your worldview, it's a waste of money either way.

You said EAS gets 40 or 50 seats filled on a good day. I've heard of some EAS routes that barely get that many seats filled in a week. More stops means more opportunities for seats to fill up. Greyhound generally breaks even at 22 seats. How about an ERJ?

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 45):
EAS is like me demanding that the government buy me a car since I have to drive to school or work.

   Would have been nice, especially since my car died back in October and we had to replace it. A thousand or two would have been mighty appreciated.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 45):
I think a lot of EAS carriers use only one pilot. And I doubt they get paid more than bus drivers either.

Other costs saved with bus service include security, ground handling, and so much more. A bus can be in and out of a stop in 5 minutes, too.

-J.
Tho' I've belted you an' flayed you, By the livin' Gawd that made you, You're a better man than I am, Gunga Din!
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 11632
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

RE: CNN: EAS - Lifeline Or Waste?

Mon Dec 19, 2011 3:10 am

Quoting KingFriday013 (Reply 46):
Greyhound generally breaks even at 22 seats. How about an ERJ?

Please let me know what EAS routes see ERJs and have fewer than 25 passengers per day.

Quoting KingFriday013 (Reply 46):
More stops means more opportunities for seats to fill up. Greyhound generally breaks even at 22 seats.

Great. So no need for a subsidy then, right?

Quoting KingFriday013 (Reply 46):
Other costs saved with bus service include security, ground handling, and so much more.

Is security really a savings, though? The passengers have to clear security somewhere, assuming they are connecting from the bus to a flight. And EAS isn't paying for security at these small airports. The security fee and other TSA funding is doing that.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
atrude777
Posts: 4258
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 11:23 pm

RE: CNN: EAS - Lifeline Or Waste?

Mon Dec 19, 2011 3:14 am

Quoting KingFriday013 (Reply 43):

That's totally driveable. Some days I drive 2 hours (due to traffic) just to get to school.

Wasn't complaining, absolutely it's drivable I do it all the time when I am not flying onward out of STL.

Quoting KingFriday013 (Reply 43):

Actually, Greyhound already does that route and picks people up on the way, too. With the current express stop in Carbondale 25 minutes in (express means it's a gas station or a street corner), it's a 2h20 trip. If that's too long, the rest of the country shouldn't have to cover so much of your trip.

It is too long. By car on our own time we can get to St. Louis (downtown) in under 2 hours. Does the Greyhound actually GET to Lambert Airport? We need Transportation to get to Airport, not the city.

Quoting KingFriday013 (Reply 43):

I would have liked some help too when I commuted to NYC from Rochester instead of paying for flights myself. ROC isn't EAS of course, but it is more than twice the distance of MWA-STL. Like I mentioned before, I've also driven NYC-ROC (nearly) nonstop.

Why do you need help? Airlines already FLY ROC-NYC? Your excuse would be valid IF there was absolutely no airline service on ROC-NYC.

Customers STILL are paying for the flights, many are acting like EAS is flying us for free and we don't pay a cent. Absolutely not true. We still have to pay to fly like you do ROC-NYC. Sometimes it's 200 r/t sometimes it's not. It really depends on the length and carrier.

Also keep in mind, people arguing for buses, and getting to the EAS city..I'd say the majority of EAS customers are not having the "EAS Connecting" as the final destination. We are connecting in that city and continuing onward.

I don't fly MWA-STL to get to St. Louis, waste of money and time. I will drive if St. Louis is my final destination, but I will fly out of MWA to continue onward out of STL, or MSP, or ORD etc etc on and on.

Alex
Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
 
BMI727
Posts: 11170
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:29 pm

RE: CNN: EAS - Lifeline Or Waste?

Mon Dec 19, 2011 3:15 am

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 47):
Great. So no need for a subsidy then, right?

That would be the idea.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 47):
And EAS isn't paying for security at these small airports. The security fee and other TSA funding is doing that.

Don't some of the EAS carriers use FBO's at large airports which don't have typical security anyway?
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?

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