dtwpilot225
Topic Author
Posts: 160
Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2011 1:31 am

Delta To Dominate LGA, With Regional Jets?

Sun Dec 18, 2011 1:59 pm

Almost every flight in the uploaded Delta schedule is on regional jets. LGA to DFW in an E170 6 times a day? I am just very confused is that all the capacity they think is in LGA or are they testing all these markets out? Also I suspected that since Pinnacle has a JFK base they would have a co base with LGA but Pinnacle is not listed on more than a couple of these routes.

[Edited 2011-12-18 11:30:16 by SA7700]
 
User avatar
chrisnh
Posts: 3382
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 1999 3:59 am

Delta To Dominate LGA, With Regional Jets?

Sun Dec 18, 2011 2:06 pm

I think what airlines need to do is ask airplane-makers for a bigger plane for airports like these. Maybe call it something like a 'DC-10' or an 'L-1011' or something along those lines.

What a novel idea that would be.
 
davescj
Posts: 1105
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2007 1:46 am

Delta To Dominate LGA, With Regional Jets?

Sun Dec 18, 2011 2:40 pm

Remember the E170 is not the CRJ200. It holds 70 seats, of which 4 are F. Better even is the E175, with 12/64 configuration. The E175 really is a decent plane to fly on and is similar to the MD88 IMHO.

Also, these are aircraft DL would seem to have right now as they've drawn down CVG and MEM so much. This does not mean that all these routes will stay RJs. DL could acquire more 737s from either Boeing, or order A3xx from Airbus, or buy from other carriers, all of which DL has been willing to do if conditions were right.

So just because it is an RJ now, does not mean that it will be RJ in the future.

Also, FWIW, with 12 F on E175, that is the same F cabin as the A319 and only 4 seats less than the MD series. Which considering how many fewer seats the cabin has is a higher relationship of F to Y seats. In a premium market, this does make some sense. It allows a higher percentage of F to Y ration for both purchase and upgrade.

Not an all bad plan I should think.

Dave
Can I have a mojito on this flight?
 
User avatar
kgaiflyer
Posts: 2589
Joined: Sat Jul 19, 2008 3:22 am

Delta To Dominate LGA, With Regional Jets?

Sun Dec 18, 2011 2:45 pm

Quoting chrisnh (Reply 2):
I think what airlines need to do is ask airplane-makers for a bigger plane for airports like these. Maybe call it something like a 'DC-10' or an 'L-1011' or something along those lines.

What a novel idea that would be.

I don't think that was the OP's point.

DL indulged in quite a bit of politics and lobbying and invested the company legal team in obtaining the additional slots. Now that they have them, to the untrained eye, the appearance is that they don't seem to know what to do with them.

Your point is correct also. TW and DL have sent 767s into LGA in the past
 
User avatar
jfklganyc
Posts: 4017
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 2:31 pm

Delta To Dominate LGA, With Regional Jets?

Sun Dec 18, 2011 2:57 pm

It just burns me up as a lifelong New Yorker.

All these people on here were pissed that DL and US had to divest slots . . . and god forbid WN should get them.

But the truth is, from a pure economics standpoint, I want the airport in my borough and in my city to get the most bang for the buck with these slots. I want them used as efficiently as possible, bringing the most people into the airport and creating economic growth and jobs for the city.

UA had to divest slots to WN at EWR and now you have a bunch of mainline 737s flying key business routes there.

DL gets US slots, after US slot-squatted for years with everything but a Cessna 172, and we get a bunch of RJs to create a "domestic hub."

I said it before, I am glad 16 slots have gone to carriers that WILL use mainline aircraft on them. It's a shame more didn't go that way.
 
EricR
Posts: 1223
Joined: Mon Jul 26, 2010 4:15 pm

Delta To Dominate LGA, With Regional Jets?

Sun Dec 18, 2011 2:58 pm

Why put mainline aircraft on routes that can only profitably support RJ service? It's not going to be in the best interest of DL to put mainline aircraft on smaller demand routes ex LGA. If demand builds, then they can add mainline aircraft. However, as we have seen with other carriers (AA, US, and even CO out of EWR), a lot of these routes can only support RJ service. Just because the route originates in NYC doesn't mean it has to be served by a mainline aircraft.
 
N62NA
Posts: 4011
Joined: Sun Aug 10, 2003 1:05 am

Delta To Dominate LGA, With Regional Jets?

Sun Dec 18, 2011 3:01 pm

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 1):
Does this really need its own thread...

Yes.

Quoting chrisnh (Reply 2):
I think what airlines need to do is ask airplane-makers for a bigger plane for airports like these. Maybe call it something like a 'DC-10' or an 'L-1011' or something along those lines.

What a novel idea that would be.

Well, it's the "capacity vs frequency" argument. Personally, I believe the "frequency" argument is a joke, as what good is it being on the 4pm flight LGA-ORD when due to congestion it actually doesn't take off until 5:15pm? Space out the flights a bit, drop the insane "every hour" frequency and use larger planes so you are able to offer the same number of seats. (* Of course, the airline's fleets aren't able to do this due to the lack of large narrowbody / small(er) widebodies, so we won't see this happen at least for 20 or 30 years).

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 4):
DL indulged in quite a bit of politics and lobbying and invested the company legal team in obtaining the additional slots. Now that they have them, to the untrained eye, the appearance is that they don't seem to know what to do with them.

RJs are "domestic service" these days. It's becoming more and more rare that you actually fly mainline when flying domestically.  
 
Flaps
Posts: 1187
Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2000 1:11 pm

Delta To Dominate LGA, With Regional Jets?

Sun Dec 18, 2011 3:13 pm

I really don't understand the obsession with mainline jets. The larger aircraft just pack in more bodies with no additional comfort and if the flights aren't full, greater fuel consumption and lower net revenue. With the sole exception of the CRJ-100/200 the regional jets I fly on multiple times per week are actually more comfortable and provide a better passenger experience than any of the mainline jets. An added plus is never having to worry about getting stuck in a middle seat. The regional crews in general tend to be harder working and have better attitudes than mainline crews. With respect to LGA, DL will earn all of my business to New York come July.
 
User avatar
STT757
Posts: 13223
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2000 1:14 am

Delta To Dominate LGA, With Regional Jets?

Sun Dec 18, 2011 3:15 pm

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 4):
Your point is correct also. TW and DL have sent 767s into LGA in the past

As well as Eastern, Pan Am and Continental A300s.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
FlyASAGuy2005
Posts: 3965
Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2007 4:55 am

Delta To Dominate LGA, With Regional Jets?

Sun Dec 18, 2011 3:28 pm

Quoting N62NA (Reply 7):

Okay   have at it
What gets measured gets done.
 
User avatar
jfklganyc
Posts: 4017
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 2:31 pm

Delta To Dominate LGA, With Regional Jets?

Sun Dec 18, 2011 3:30 pm

"I really don't understand the obsession with mainline jets."

They clog a slot at a slot-controlled airport thereby artificially suppressing supply

AND

There are carriers out that (WN, B6, WS, NK, Allegiant) that want to fly mainline service with those slots

THEREFORE

By letting an airline like US, or now DL, sit on hundreds of slots and artificially suppressing supply when there are other carriers willing to fly larger jets into LGA that can not get a slot, there is a legit "obsession" with RJs at slot controlled airports.


NOTE

There are routes like DSM that can not support mainline service, and I fully support RJs into LGA for these select markets. But when you see an RJ on LGA-DFW/IAH 5 or 6 times a day, when you know that WN would love to fly LGA-HOU 4 or 5 times a day with a 737 if they had the extra slots, there is a BIG problem in my humble opinion.
 
Western727
Posts: 1428
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2007 12:38 pm

Delta To Dominate LGA, With Regional Jets?

Sun Dec 18, 2011 3:42 pm

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 11):

I certainly see your point. At the same time, I'm thinking of the aircraft size vs. frequency thing; 6 170s to, for example, IAH, seems to me to be a flight every 2.5 hours. If they were all "mainlined" I'd see only one flight every 4-5 hours and as a business traveler that doesn't seem desirable.
Jack @ AUS
 
Indy
Posts: 3957
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2005 1:37 pm

Delta To Dominate LGA, With Regional Jets?

Sun Dec 18, 2011 3:44 pm

Quoting davescj (Reply 3):
The E175 really is a decent plane to fly on

I am not really a fan of regional jets but I love the E175. In my opinion it is the most comfortable standard coach product Delta offers.
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
EricR
Posts: 1223
Joined: Mon Jul 26, 2010 4:15 pm

Delta To Dominate LGA, With Regional Jets?

Sun Dec 18, 2011 3:47 pm

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 11):
There are carriers out that (WN, B6, WS, NK, Allegiant) that want to fly mainline service with those slots

Neither of the aforementioned carriers would be able to offer the diversity of service as DL since they do not have the range of fleet sizes to properly serve the number of destinations as DL. Also, business and tourist passengers would prefer an airline that offer more options (ie. flight times) than once a day on a mainline aircraft.

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 11):
By letting an airline like US, or now DL, sit on hundreds of slots and artificially suppressing supply when there are other carriers willing to fly larger jets into LGA that can not get a slot, there is a legit "obsession" with RJs at slot controlled airports.

What percentage of flights out of LGA are on RJ's and how does this compare to cities such as DEN, MIA, CLE, MSP, BOS, EWR, etc?
 
greenwichsud
Posts: 52
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 11:18 am

Delta To Dominate LGA, With Regional Jets?

Sun Dec 18, 2011 3:58 pm

My question is: how is DL going to be successful doing essentially the same thing that US did at LGA (and apparently failed at)? Is it the "elimination" of a competitor (in this case US) that will give DL the leg up this time around? Are their costs lower? Will they be able to scale better since it's a larger hub than either had previously? Is their (projected) RASM going to be higher? What is different?

[Edited 2011-12-18 08:02:16]
 
flyby519
Posts: 1158
Joined: Tue Jul 24, 2007 3:31 am

Delta To Dominate LGA, With Regional Jets?

Sun Dec 18, 2011 4:14 pm

Quoting EricR (Reply 14):
What percentage of flights out of LGA are on RJ's and how does this compare to cities such as DEN, MIA, CLE, MSP, BOS, EWR, etc?

Delta LGA July 2012-

A319/A320/A321- 37
737- 6
MD88- 24
757- 15
CRJ2/7/9-55
E170/175-65
ERJ-59

Mainline 31%
RJs 69%
These postings or comments are not a company-sponsored source of communication.
 
FSDan
Posts: 923
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 5:27 pm

Delta To Dominate LGA, With Regional Jets?

Sun Dec 18, 2011 4:27 pm

Quoting greenwichsud (Reply 15):
Is it the "elimination" of a competitor (in this case US) that will give DL the leg up this time around?

Not a huge deal since they only overlapped on a few markets like CMH and RDU.

Quoting greenwichsud (Reply 15):
Are their costs lower?

Yes, in general.

Quoting greenwichsud (Reply 15):
Will they be able to scale better since it's a larger hub than either had previously?

Yes. If you look at what US had at LGA, they barely served any major business markets. DL will serve just about every major business market east of the Mississippi (with generally 4+ daily flights). That's got some attractiveness for a business traveler.

Also, Delta has a name for itself in New York, which US lost over the last few years.

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 4):
Now that they have them, to the untrained eye, the appearance is that they don't seem to know what to do with them.

The key there is "to the untrained eye". They know exactly what to do with them: spread them out over as many key markets as possible with the highest frequency they can, all while operating flights on aircraft that are not too large to fill profitably but still have the option of first class for premium travelers. Of the 264 daily flights DL will operate from LGA, only 65 will not have premium cabin service. And 62 of those 65 are on ERJ-145s, which are much more comfortable than CRJ-200s.
This is my signature until I think of a better one.
 
peanuts
Posts: 826
Joined: Thu Dec 24, 2009 1:17 am

Delta To Dominate LGA, With Regional Jets?

Sun Dec 18, 2011 5:00 pm

RJ's is too general a term for this thread.

There are CRJ's and E70's. Both considered "RJ's". But they are worlds apart passenger experience wise.

Hopefully E70's will be the smallest option soon in DL's mind. Not holding my breath as wishful thinking is not always practical thinking, right?  
 
DL747400
Posts: 295
Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2008 4:04 pm

Delta To Dominate LGA, With Regional Jets?

Sun Dec 18, 2011 5:16 pm

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 4):
Now that they have them, to the untrained eye, the appearance is that they don't seem to know what to do with them.

They've had 2 years to figure all of this out. They know exactly what they are doing. Trust me.

This is merely the first schedule. Once they are able to get the hub up and running and debugged, a clearer picture of both demand and pricing power will emerge. At that time, expect to seem selective upsizing of aircraft on certain routes and at specific times of the day to meet this demand.

The absolute last thing you want to do is put lots of capacity out there in a new hub and in a weak economy. Why destroy your pricing power from the very start?

Also remember that even though this is only Phase 1 of the LGA buildup, DL is already operating larger aircraft in many cases than US was operating, with a corresponding increase in capacity with no increase in the overall number of overall LGA flights.
From First to Worst: The history of Airliners.net.

All posts reflect my opinions, not those of my employer or any other company.
 
User avatar
ERJ170
Posts: 5486
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2004 11:15 am

Delta To Dominate LGA, With Regional Jets?

Sun Dec 18, 2011 6:11 pm

Quoting FSDan (Reply 17):

Not a huge deal since they only overlapped on a few markets like CMH and RDU.

Kinda huge deal in those markets though.. where RDU went from 720 seats between US and DL to just 490 seats. Delta is making it better for AA to grab some of the market back. I was hoping for some mainline upguage and status quo on the number of flights to make it make more sense but it didn't happen that way. I could see a loss of some seats but not 230 seats...
Aiming High and going far..
 
roseflyer
Posts: 9606
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2004 9:34 am

Delta To Dominate LGA, With Regional Jets?

Sun Dec 18, 2011 6:42 pm

I am not surprised that DL is entering new markets with small aircraft. The airline made a sizeable boost in capacity. The routes have to develop. With the exception of the holiday season, all the new frequencies in routes are being launched in the low season. With time, I'd expect DL to right size markets and many more larger aircraft will come when the busier summer season picks up. DL will have some pretty low load factors on these routes as they continue to develop, so E170s make sense.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
Boac747
Posts: 33
Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2006 6:24 am

Delta To Dominate LGA, With Regional Jets?

Sun Dec 18, 2011 6:49 pm

Would love to see LGA get an HOV lane!

Can't count the times I've been told we are 20+ in line for take off, only to look out the window and see a conga line of props and RJ's.
 
kcrwflyer
Posts: 2535
Joined: Tue May 18, 2004 11:57 am

Delta To Dominate LGA, With Regional Jets?

Sun Dec 18, 2011 8:40 pm

Quoting Flaps (Reply 8):
The regional crews in general tend to be harder working and have better attitudes than mainline crews.

Which planet have you been flying regional flights on? Take me with you!

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 19):
Kinda huge deal in those markets though.. where RDU went from 720 seats between US and DL to just 490 seats. Delta is making it better for AA to grab some of the market back. I was hoping for some mainline upguage and status quo on the number of flights to make it make more sense but it didn't happen that way. I could see a loss of some seats but not 230 seats...

Look up the numbers on the two airlines performance and then decide how many seats you'd put in that market. I think the RDU schedule from LGA provides enough frequency to not lose any traffic and the right amount of seats to actually make money.
 
NWADC9
Posts: 3940
Joined: Tue Jun 01, 2004 12:33 am

Delta To Dominate LGA, With Regional Jets?

Sun Dec 18, 2011 8:43 pm

Quoting peanuts (Reply 17):

RJ's is too general a term for this thread.

There are CRJ's and E70's. Both considered "RJ's". But they are worlds apart passenger experience wise.

Indeed. I doubt anyone here would whine about having to sit in an RJ-85 for two hours. Go back a few decades and "RJs" were called DC-9-10s and BAC 1-11s. The E-Jets are more like mainline jets than they are commuter prop fuselages with turbines strapped to the sides. Heck, the stretched versions are operated by majors.
Flying an aeroplane with only a single propeller to keep you in the air. Can you imagine that? -Capt. Picard
 
Evan767
Posts: 2198
Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2005 10:52 am

Delta To Dominate LGA, With Regional Jets?

Sun Dec 18, 2011 8:55 pm

Quoting Kcrwflyer (Reply 22):
Quoting Flaps (Reply 8):
The regional crews in general tend to be harder working and have better attitudes than mainline crews.

Which planet have you been flying regional flights on? Take me with you!

I've also noticed better crews on regional flights. I think this is due to the fact that regional crews tend to be younger, harder working, not as burnt out as the mainline crews, etc.
The proper term is "on final" not "on finals" bud...
 
mm320cap
Posts: 165
Joined: Wed Jul 14, 2004 12:35 pm

Delta To Dominate LGA, With Regional Jets?

Sun Dec 18, 2011 9:05 pm

Quoting Western727 (Reply 11):
I certainly see your point. At the same time, I'm thinking of the aircraft size vs. frequency thing; 6 170s to, for example, IAH, seems to me to be a flight every 2.5 hours. If they were all "mainlined" I'd see only one flight every 4-5 hours and as a business traveler that doesn't seem desirable.



Ahhh yes. This is the classic mainline management argument for continuing to use more and more RJ's. This makes one huge assumption though: that the weather is going to be good. Unfortunately, in a place like LGA or ORD, this is not the case 30-40% of the time. Business travelers want more frequency so that they can be more flexible with their scheduling. But do they really? Do they want more frequency if it means that more often than not, their flight is going to be delayed several hours? With the ridiculous delays in LGA, it would make more sense to fly 3-4 737's a day to a market (timed for business travelers) when you have a really good shot at being on time, than it would to serve the same market 6-7 times with a CRJ when you have a good shot at having a several hour delay. When flights are on time, business travelers are able to plan around them. When airports are ridiculously over capacity with small jets, the schedules get busted frequently, which makes planning your business meeting EXTREMELY tricky.
 
slcdeltarumd11
Posts: 3282
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2004 7:30 am

Delta To Dominate LGA, With Regional Jets?

Sun Dec 18, 2011 9:06 pm

Delta To Dominate Lga, With Regional Jets?

What did you expect? They have to solidify their presence in those markets whats the point of flying half empty planes for a year as your new to alot of these routes? Plus where would mainline planes come from instantly in bulk? Some will work some will fail miserably its better to find out on smaller planes
 
N62NA
Posts: 4011
Joined: Sun Aug 10, 2003 1:05 am

Delta To Dominate LGA, With Regional Jets?

Sun Dec 18, 2011 9:13 pm

Quoting boac747 (Reply 21):
Would love to see LGA get an HOV lane!

Best suggestion I've read on here in a very long time!
 
roseflyer
Posts: 9606
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2004 9:34 am

Delta To Dominate LGA, With Regional Jets?

Sun Dec 18, 2011 9:14 pm

Quoting boac747 (Reply 21):
Would love to see LGA get an HOV lane!

Can't count the times I've been told we are 20+ in line for take off, only to look out the window and see a conga line of props and RJ's.

That goes against the way air traffic works in the United States. I've seen a 777 have to wait for a C172 takeoff.

What would be good would be having slots to large and small aircraft like Long Beach does. Certain number for large aircraft and a certain for small to cut down on overall frequencies.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
dtwpilot225
Topic Author
Posts: 160
Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2011 1:31 am

RE: Delta To Dominate LGA, With Regional Jets?

Sun Dec 18, 2011 10:11 pm

My point of the original post was that it is rediculous to have pilots making 30 dollars an hour flyIng from lga to Dfw I'm sick of it that's all
 
thegoldenargosy
Posts: 489
Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2010 4:14 am

RE: Delta To Dominate LGA, With Regional Jets?

Sun Dec 18, 2011 10:24 pm

Quoting dtwpilot225 (Reply 29):

My point of the original post was that it is rediculous to have pilots making 30 dollars an hour flyIng from lga to Dfw I'm sick of it that's all

That is the state of flying in the United States. We care more about frequency than anything else.
 
User avatar
kgaiflyer
Posts: 2589
Joined: Sat Jul 19, 2008 3:22 am

RE: Delta To Dominate LGA, With Regional Jets?

Sun Dec 18, 2011 11:07 pm

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 28):
I've seen a 777 have to wait for a C172 takeoff.

One of my favorite memories is years ago -- while on a NW DC-9 -- having our plane swerve off the taxiway and onto the grass at IAD after being overtaken by an LH A346.

I've seen beer cans crushed -- I'm glad we swerved.  
 
Flaps
Posts: 1187
Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2000 1:11 pm

RE: Delta To Dominate LGA, With Regional Jets?

Sun Dec 18, 2011 11:49 pm

Quoting dtwpilot225 (Reply 29):
My point of the original post was that it is rediculous to have pilots making 30 dollars an hour flyIng from lga to Dfw I'm sick of it that's all

You are certainly well entitled to your opinion on that. Unfortunately, free market economics has determined that to be the model. No different than the steel industry, the auto industry and many others. I share your frustration though. I got out of the cockpit when it became obvious the way that career path was headed. After quite some time in airline management, I got out of that when I saw where that career path was headed. I've had more than my fair share of airlines shot out from under me. It is disappointing and it is unfortunate. Fact is though that is the way things work. We all have to decide between economic status/comfort level or doing what we love. We cant always have it both ways.
 
User avatar
b727fa
Posts: 1043
Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2011 8:21 pm

RE: Delta To Dominate LGA, With Regional Jets?

Mon Dec 19, 2011 12:43 am

Quoting davescj (Reply 2):
It holds 70 seats, of which 4 are F

Am I really the only one to catch this mistake? The 170 has 6 F seats.

As a mainline FA I'm frustrated that only MIA is on ML. Now, the RJ fleets have more "flex" at this point. I'm hoping more will convert to ML but I'm not holding my breath.
My comments/opinions are my own and are not to be construed as the opinion(s) of my employer.
 
capitalflyer
Posts: 268
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 2:43 am

RE: Delta To Dominate LGA, With Regional Jets?

Mon Dec 19, 2011 6:36 am

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 10):
artificially suppressing supply

...which in turn means higher fares. These higher fares mean more profit. Which is what airlines are in the business for anyway. If I can add 1 or 2 daily frequencies with slightly smaller equipment (on a regional carrier that I likely pay less) and make a higher average fare, it would be dumb not to do it.
 
boberito6589
Posts: 363
Joined: Mon Nov 09, 2009 7:09 pm

RE: Delta To Dominate LGA, With Regional Jets?

Mon Dec 19, 2011 7:50 am

Quoting mm320cap (Reply 25):
Ahhh yes. This is the classic mainline management argument for continuing to use more and more RJ's. This makes one huge assumption though: that the weather is going to be good. Unfortunately, in a place like LGA or ORD, this is not the case 30-40% of the time. Business travelers want more frequency so that they can be more flexible with their scheduling. But do they really? Do they want more frequency if it means that more often than not, their flight is going to be delayed several hours? With the ridiculous delays in LGA, it would make more sense to fly 3-4 737's a day to a market (timed for business travelers) when you have a really good shot at being on time, than it would to serve the same market 6-7 times with a CRJ when you have a good shot at having a several hour delay. When flights are on time, business travelers are able to plan around them. When airports are ridiculously over capacity with small jets, the schedules get busted frequently, which makes planning your business meeting EXTREMELY tricky.

I don't think flying 3-4 737s a day to a market would give the flights a higher chance of being on time, and in turn might actually make the business travelers more aggravated. Currently if there is a delay program with the increased frequency those travelers have a chance at getting on a flight that should have already departed, with reduced frequency the chances of that happening are much smaller forcing them to wait. Just because the route is operated fewer times a day with a larger plane doesn't change the number of operations to the airport, the flights would still be delayed. If DL had really created some kind of massive Mainline only operation that it seems like some people were expecting, then I wonder if LGA would have started to take a toll on the A:14 DOT rankings and killed their on time performance?
 
comairguycvg
Posts: 235
Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2006 5:01 pm

RE: Delta To Dominate LGA, With Regional Jets?

Mon Dec 19, 2011 8:52 am

Quoting dtwpilot225 (Thread starter):
Almost every flight in the uploaded Delta schedule is on regional jets.

They should re-name the Regional Jet to National Jet.
Worked at: CV62, RJTA, KNLC, CV63, KNFL, OKAJ, KTRI, CV67, KMGE, KNQX, KVPS, KPIT, KCVG, KTYS, KATL
 
indywa
Posts: 129
Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2007 1:25 am

RE: Delta To Dominate LGA, With Regional Jets?

Mon Dec 19, 2011 4:09 pm

Quoting b727fa (Reply 33):
Am I really the only one to catch this mistake? The 170 has 6 F seats.

Actually, they are in the process of converting these to 9 F seats / 60 Y (S5 already has a few converted)
 
aajfksjubklyn
Posts: 458
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2007 10:46 pm

RE: Delta To Dominate LGA, With Regional Jets?

Mon Dec 19, 2011 4:12 pm

-

Quoting greenwichsud (Reply 14):
My question is: how is DL going to be successful doing essentially the same thing that US did at LGA (and apparently failed at)? Is it the "elimination" of a competitor (in this case US) that will give DL the leg up this time around? Are their costs lower? Will they be able to scale better since it's a larger hub than either had previously? Is their (projected) RASM going to be higher? What is different?

Its an implosion waiting to happen. I dont get any of it in all honesty, and nor do many on here. Who the heck would fly NY-LGA on a Regional Jet, 4 hours on plane if everythign goes right...then factor in LGA Delays...DISASTER!
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19056
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: Delta To Dominate LGA, With Regional Jets?

Mon Dec 19, 2011 4:22 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 8):
Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 4):
Your point is correct also. TW and DL have sent 767s into LGA in the past

As well as Eastern, Pan Am and Continental A300s.
UA and AA also used 767s at LGA. Also AA, DL and National DC-10s and DL, Eastern and TWA L-1011s.

Quoting NWADC9 (Reply 23):
Quoting peanuts (Reply 17):

RJ's is too general a term for this thread.

There are CRJ's and E70's. Both considered "RJ's". But they are worlds apart passenger experience wise.

Indeed. I doubt anyone here would whine about having to sit in an RJ-85 for two hours.

Only if it's 5-abreast when the Avro RJ/BAe16 is excellent. At 6-abreast they are very cramped and best avoided.

[Edited 2011-12-19 08:23:31]
 
apodino
Posts: 3030
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2005 2:11 am

RE: Delta To Dominate LGA, With Regional Jets?

Mon Dec 19, 2011 7:49 pm

Quoting boberito6589 (Reply 35):
I don't think flying 3-4 737s a day to a market would give the flights a higher chance of being on time, and in turn might actually make the business travelers more aggravated. Currently if there is a delay program with the increased frequency those travelers have a chance at getting on a flight that should have already departed, with reduced frequency the chances of that happening are much smaller forcing them to wait. Just because the route is operated fewer times a day with a larger plane doesn't change the number of operations to the airport, the flights would still be delayed. If DL had really created some kind of massive Mainline only operation that it seems like some people were expecting, then I wonder if LGA would have started to take a toll on the A:14 DOT rankings and killed their on time performance?

You forget one thing though. In a delay program, because of operational issues created as well as the LOB situation, this by nature leads to a large number of flights being cancelled, which means that some passengers are going to be stranded as opposed to getting to their destination, where if you have fewer flights on bigger jets, the airport can run more smoothly because it can handle the traffic.

Let me illustrate: On a good day, LGA can handle an average of 38 arrivals per hour. In a bad weather situation, the rate goes down to 32, meaning 6 flights roll over to the next hour, and it creates a cascading effect that leads to two hour delays. While its great that the airlines want all this service to all these cities, the bottom line is that 8 times out of 10, LGA cannot handle the flights that are operating there without delays. The result is that business travellers can not plan anything on a tight schedule because the airport itself is unreliable. However, the airlines have to use the slots or lose them, meaning that you get lots of RJ's as a result.

The bigger problem is the slot program at LGA is completely mismanaged. Just down I 95 there is another slot controlled airport that everyone wants to serve. It arguably has even more limitations than LGA because the airport itself is more restrictive. And yet you never ever hear about any delay problems at that airport. That airport of couse is DCA. My question is this. If both DCA and LGA are slot restricted, and yet DCA has almost no delay problems, and LGA always does despite being a slot airport, maybe the problem isn't with the airlines, maybe the problem is with the amount of slots and perhaps a reduction in those slots to a level that LGA can deal with in any weather may be in order.

As for DL specifically, Richard Anderson was on CNBC the other day, and one of the reasons they are investing so much in LGA is because DL is very bullish on the overall economy, which means lots of travel to New York, and he believes that LGA is the business travellers airport. Where DL needs to be careful though is they have an international gateway across town at JFK that is very important. One of the reasons they have had success in NYC is because they can capture O and D and feed the international flights. If all the O and D flocks to LGA (at least the high yielding O and D), then DL has to operate a lot of JFK flights at a loss in order to feed the international flights. Which could mean that although NYC is a huge O and D market, losing the connecting traffic at JFK as a result of reductions could diminish the JFK hub.
 
DCA-ROCguy
Posts: 3894
Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2000 5:03 am

RE: Delta To Dominate LGA, With Regional Jets?

Mon Dec 19, 2011 9:58 pm

Quoting greenwichsud (Reply 14):
My question is: how is DL going to be successful doing essentially the same thing that US did at LGA (and apparently failed at)? Is it the "elimination" of a competitor (in this case US) that will give DL the leg up this time around? Are their costs lower? Will they be able to scale better since it's a larger hub than either had previously? Is their (projected) RASM going to be higher? What is different?

Many of us are asking the same question. I'm not as confident as our Delta supporters that DL will succeed where US has failed. It still amazes me that US couldn't make money on flights to the country's largest business center from regional markets, despite low-cost props and decades of name recognition. But, they didn't. Best wishes to DL.

Quoting apodino (Reply 40):
That airport of couse is DCA. My question is this. If both DCA and LGA are slot restricted, and yet DCA has almost no delay problems, and LGA always does despite being a slot airport, maybe the problem isn't with the airlines, maybe the problem is with the amount of slots and perhaps a reduction in those slots to a level that LGA can deal with in any weather may be in order.

  

Reducing LGA's total slots to an amount its runways can support in all weather, like at DCA, is IMO the proper solution. The $64 question, of course, is how to do that fairly. Presumably a proportional reduction, but there would likely be a raft of lawsuits from airline tenants who feel slighted, with any plan. And Congresscritters from the smallest markets that have LGA service would likely get involved, too. I don't know the answer. Maybe require that a certain amount of the remaining slots be reserved to small markets.

Jim
Need a new airline paint scheme? Better call Saul! (Bass that is)
 
greenwichsud
Posts: 52
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 11:18 am

RE: Delta To Dominate LGA, With Regional Jets?

Mon Dec 19, 2011 11:11 pm

Quoting FSDan (Reply 16):
Yes. If you look at what US had at LGA, they barely served any major business markets. DL will serve just about every major business market east of the Mississippi (with generally 4+ daily flights). That's got some attractiveness for a business traveler.

Also, Delta has a name for itself in New York, which US lost over the last few years.

OK, but why did US choose to tuck it's tail between its legs rather than attempt to exploit these opportunities on their own? Weren't they in many of these markets in the past?
 
B4REAL
Posts: 2559
Joined: Sun Aug 10, 2003 5:53 am

RE: Delta To Dominate LGA, With Regional Jets?

Mon Dec 19, 2011 11:30 pm

Quoting Flaps (Reply 7):
With the sole exception of the CRJ-100/200 the regional jets I fly on multiple times per week are actually more comfortable and provide a better passenger experience than any of the mainline jets.

I'm sorry, but I can't agree with any of this.

The only exception would be if the CRJ is empty and I'd be the only passenger compared to a packed 757 middle seat in the very back.
B4REAL, spelled like it sounds
 
peanuts
Posts: 826
Joined: Thu Dec 24, 2009 1:17 am

RE: Delta To Dominate LGA, With Regional Jets?

Mon Dec 19, 2011 11:33 pm

With all due respect. Why are we comparing US to DL or DL to US???
They have some things in common but the differences are far more.
US is way out of DL's league, domestically and internationally.
I see where the scepticism stems from now. Unrealistic expectations for their trusted carrier (US).

US could only wish half the things DL has accomplished over the past 3 years.

DL certainly has to prove itself at LGA. But a new track record has already shown some positive results.
 
greenwichsud
Posts: 52
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 11:18 am

RE: Delta To Dominate LGA, With Regional Jets?

Tue Dec 20, 2011 1:22 am

Quoting peanuts (Reply 44):
With all due respect. Why are we comparing US to DL or DL to US???

I'm not sure who you are referring to, but my statements were not meant as an in depth comparison of DL to US. What I am seeing (admittedly as a humble layman) is that DL is building a large RJ hub at LGA with slots that were purchased from another carrier that failed at what seems to have been a very similar strategy.

Quoting peanuts (Reply 44):
They have some things in common but the differences are far more.
US is way out of DL's league, domestically and internationally.
I see where the scepticism stems from now. Unrealistic expectations for their trusted carrier (US).

I definitely wouldn't embrace US as my "trusted carrier". I have flown them extensively out of LGA for the past couple of years - mostly out of convenience - and find many of the flight attendants to be absolutely miserable at customer service (this morning's experience LGA-CMH was a doozy). The employees in the terminal are a mixed bag - mostly better. I have also flown DL extensively and notice a certain polish in the end-to-end experience that is definitely lacking on US.
 
Flighty
Posts: 7720
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:07 am

RE: Delta To Dominate LGA, With Regional Jets?

Tue Dec 20, 2011 1:27 am

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 3):
DL indulged in quite a bit of politics and lobbying and invested the company legal team in obtaining the additional slots. Now that they have them, to the untrained eye, the appearance is that they don't seem to know what to do with them

What you do is you deploy your RJs (which need a mission) and you cut seat count to the bone at LGA. Then it is your monopoly and you have NYC by the balls. Then, profit.
 
N62NA
Posts: 4011
Joined: Sun Aug 10, 2003 1:05 am

RE: Delta To Dominate LGA, With Regional Jets?

Tue Dec 20, 2011 1:30 am

Quoting apodino (Reply 40):
If both DCA and LGA are slot restricted, and yet DCA has almost no delay problems, and LGA always does despite being a slot airport, maybe the problem isn't with the airlines, maybe the problem is with the amount of slots and perhaps a reduction in those slots to a level that LGA can deal with in any weather may be in order.

I'd also like to see this done at EWR.
 
FSDan
Posts: 923
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 5:27 pm

RE: Delta To Dominate LGA, With Regional Jets?

Tue Dec 20, 2011 2:00 am

Quoting greenwichsud (Reply 45):
What I am seeing (admittedly as a humble layman) is that DL is building a large RJ hub at LGA with slots that were purchased from another carrier that failed at what seems to have been a very similar strategy.

There are two big reasons that jump out at me right away as to why US's strategy and DL's strategy are not similar:

1) Even though DL is using many RJs, they are mostly outfitted with premium cabins. If you look at US's operation it is mostly SF3s, DH8s, CRJs, and ERJs. Almost half of DL's flights will be on CR7s, CR9s, E70s, and E75's, all with first class seats, and soon Wi-Fi and Economy Comfort. This product will be much more appealing to the local market than what US had.

2) DL's LGA route network will be much, much more comprehensive and business-traveler-friendly than that of US. DL will serve almost every major business market in the Eastern half of the United States, while US currently only serves a few. Factor into this the additional business markets (both domestic and international) that DL can offer via its JFK hub, and DL will really have an advantage over what US had. Say a New York business traveler regularly travels to Los Angeles, Buffalo, Boston, London, and Tokyo. US would have been incapable of fully meeting their needs, whereas DL will be a solid choice.
This is my signature until I think of a better one.
 
BMI727
Posts: 11123
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:29 pm

RE: Delta To Dominate LGA, With Regional Jets?

Tue Dec 20, 2011 2:12 am

Someone I know had their STL-DCA itinerary on Delta changed since apparently the nonstop flights are going away. I must have missed this news, but I would guess it is at least tangentially related to the LGA buildup.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?