JaxMan19
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LCC's Flying Transatlantic?

Mon Dec 19, 2011 3:54 am

I was wondering if B6 or SW or any new start up airline could fly an A320 or a 737 to connect smaller mid sized cities like JAX, TPA,BNA,PVD,and CMH to European cities like CDG, LHR and FRA? would it be too expensive? What do you guys think?
 
BOStonsox
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RE: LCC's Flying Transatlantic?

Mon Dec 19, 2011 4:24 am

An A320 will not make the trip westbound. I think one day B6 may fly BOS/JFK-Europe, but that would be far off and they'd need a new plane type. If any new American LCC did it they would probably go to STN/ORY/HHN, and European carriers would not use CMH or JAX but certainly PVD or TPA.
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BMI727
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RE: LCC's Flying Transatlantic?

Mon Dec 19, 2011 4:40 am

Quoting JaxMan19 (Thread starter):

I was wondering if B6 or SW or any new start up airline could fly an A320 or a 737 to connect smaller mid sized cities like JAX, TPA,BNA,PVD,and CMH to European cities like CDG, LHR and FRA?

They could do it if the planes have the range. They wouldn't make any money though.

Quoting JaxMan19 (Thread starter):
would it be too expensive?

Yes. To make it work they would need larger planes. Air Berlin is trying to make the business model work, and I think it can in limited markets.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
LOWS
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RE: LCC's Flying Transatlantic?

Mon Dec 19, 2011 4:49 am

Well, from the EU side there is always Michael O'Leary with his "Beds and Blowjobs Business Class" idea for TATL, but nothing has ever come of that.

Always good for a laugh:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UfIY24BErBE
 
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mariner
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RE: LCC's Flying Transatlantic?

Mon Dec 19, 2011 5:00 am

Sun Country flies MSP to London - via Gander - every summer.

http://upgrd.com/matthew/sun-country...ic-service-to-london-stansted.html

I assume it will fly in 2012 because it is on the route map, but It believe it has shifted from STN to LGW:

http://www.suncountry.com/page/1/destinations.jsp

mariner
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sunking737
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RE: LCC's Flying Transatlantic?

Mon Dec 19, 2011 5:38 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 4):
Sun Country flies MSP to London - via Gander - every summer.

http://upgrd.com/matthew/sun-country...ic-service-to-london-stansted.html

I assume it will fly in 2012 because it is on the route map, but It believe it has shifted from STN to LGW:

http://www.suncountry.com/page/1/destinations.jsp

mariner

No word on start up date or days of the week, They wanted to do Fri./Sat. over and back but cut back to only once week. A/C shortage??
Just an MSPAVGEEK
 
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American 767
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RE: LCC's Flying Transatlantic?

Mon Dec 19, 2011 5:46 am

I remember City Bird back in the late 90s. They started TATL operations in 1997 with a couple of MD-11s configured in a 3-4-3 seat layout. They used to fly out of BRU to EWR, MIA, LAX and SFO. They flew MD-11s and 767s TATL until they went out of business in the early 2000s. I remember how excited most Belgians were because the fares to the United States were low.

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vlad1971
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RE: LCC's Flying Transatlantic?

Mon Dec 19, 2011 6:47 am

I think SunWing of Canada still flying to Europe from Canada ( LON, CDG ,FCO,LIS ) At least they were last year ......
 
rutankrd
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RE: LCC's Flying Transatlantic?

Mon Dec 19, 2011 8:45 am

Over history plenty of Low Cost transatlantic operations have existed such as friends clubs in the 1960s , ABC charters in the 1970s that lead to the Laker Skytrain services, Virgin Altantic as initially formed, Peoplexpress, Maxjet. EOS, and Silverjet to name few.

With the exception of Virgin all folded.

Also remember LCC does NOT mean LOW FARES - the last three were business services and today BA still operate a low cost subsidiary from France that charges business fares !
 
Burkhard
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RE: LCC's Flying Transatlantic?

Mon Dec 19, 2011 8:54 am

The LCC model, at least here in Europe, os based on point to point connections, not connecting traffic, and there are not many city pairs that justify regular flights. Maybe the A319NEO will be a game changer, because I expect it to combine enough range with good economics - but too much money got burned this way already. And when I see that sometimes LH offers FRA-JFK for €399 - how could a LCC go below that?
 
rutankrd
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RE: LCC's Flying Transatlantic?

Mon Dec 19, 2011 9:33 am

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 9):
The LCC model, at least here in Europe, os based on point to point connections, not connecting traffic, and there are not many city pairs that justify regular flights. Maybe the A319NEO will be a game changer, because I expect it to combine enough range with good economics - but too much money got burned this way already. And when I see that sometimes LH offers FRA-JFK for €399 - how could a LCC go below that?

That's it you see part of myth marketing is that LCC automatically leads to low fares well it doesn't !

What these carriers (Ryanair ,Easyjet, South West, JetBlue etc..) offer are very complex fares structures and algorithms to maximise yields and when your multi million dollar asset operates just one return rotation per day you end up with a similar fare structure to the legacies and in some cases actually higher costs due to lack of feed fare offsetting legacy operators employ (thats simply applying most of the fare paid to the long haul and effectively operating the feed sector at a loss)

Simply put the only way Low fares type operations over the North Atlantic and other long hauls work is when linked to packages such as the Air Transat flights, Thomas Cook Group flights, Virgin Atlantic Beach fleet plus Vegas ops

Plus a few loss leader and off peak fares from the legacies.

Time and again every other business model fails close inspection.
 
GLAGAZ
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RE: LCC's Flying Transatlantic?

Mon Dec 19, 2011 11:12 am

Quoting vlad1971 (Reply 7):
I think SunWing of Canada still flying to Europe from Canada ( LON, CDG ,FCO,LIS ) At least they were last year ......

YYZ-GLA being launched for 2012 - 2x weekly 767.

Gaz
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richardw
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RE: LCC's Flying Transatlantic?

Mon Dec 19, 2011 11:37 am

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 10):
when your multi million dollar asset operates just one return rotation per day you end up with a similar fare structure to the legacies and in some cases actually higher costs

easyJet operate some long routes on one rotation per day, such as MAN-SSH, LON-AMM, so what's the difference between these routes and say MAN-BGR, is it just a little bit of a longer sector with more ocean below?

[Edited 2011-12-19 03:39:00]
 
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GCT64
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RE: LCC's Flying Transatlantic?

Mon Dec 19, 2011 12:18 pm

You can bet Easyjet and Ryanair (and probably others) are running some calculations and projections to see if a TATL business based on the NEO or MAX is viable. Without being privy to those numbers it is difficult to guess their conclusions but it would certainly be nice to see, say, Easy NEO flights from EDI, GLA, MAN, NCL and/or BFS into BOS. As many pointed out here and elsewhere, these flights are not much more in flight time than the MAN-SSH or EDI-TFS routes which Easy already operate.
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GT4EZY
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RE: LCC's Flying Transatlantic?

Mon Dec 19, 2011 12:25 pm

LCC's will operate long haul one day.... Just not anytime in the short/mid term.

Everyone imagines that long haul LCC will start with the big city pairs when in actual fact it could so easily be the bucket and spade routes such as MCO, CUN, BGI etc etc. We are already seeing the charters struggling on long haul and my belief is that this is partly due to dynamic packaging/self packaging which happened short haul. The LCC's became dominant at your AGP's, PMI's and your ALC's and the charters re -focused on mid haul. In the end the LCC's followed and now they are every bit as common in TFS, SSH etc as the charters are. I just see the next step to be leisure long haul in the next 5-10 years. Purely my own prediction.

Generally speaking the likes of LGW-AMM and MAN-SSH follow two very short sectors but in the Winter they quite often just operate those two extra long sectors. Many still believe that the LCC's still religiously stick to the classic low cost attributes of the late 90's, early 00's. The high sectors/utilisation philosophy goes out of the window on the current long flights, hence the 3 hour rule of he stelios era has long since gone the same way. Night stopping where necessary occurs currently at easyjet, albeit on relatively small scale, and they use big slot constrained airports which was also a big no no.
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Viscount724
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RE: LCC's Flying Transatlantic?

Mon Dec 19, 2011 12:46 pm

Costs of operating longhaul services are not compatible with LCC operations. Just look at all the failed longhaul LCCs, from People Express to Oasis Hong Kong. And those that are trying (e.g. Air Berlin) are in very poor financial shape.

Major carriers with their sophisticated revenue management systems can easily match LCC fares and offer all the benefits of their FFPs and large networks and drive the LCCs out of business.

Issues involving airport curfews and the difficulty of obtaining slots at commercially attractive times at many airpots also makes it difficult to reach the aircraft utilization that LCCs need to cover their costs.
 
richardw
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RE: LCC's Flying Transatlantic?

Mon Dec 19, 2011 12:46 pm

Quoting GT4EZY (Reply 14):
Generally speaking the likes of LGW-AMM and MAN-SSH follow two very short sectors but in the Winter they quite often just operate those two extra long sectors.

All year round MAN-BGR-MAN would be an overnighter and the same aircraft could operate MAN-AMS-MAN in the daytime, depending if MAN-AMS in the winter would be fat enough.
 
richardw
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RE: LCC's Flying Transatlantic?

Mon Dec 19, 2011 12:50 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 15):
Major carriers with their sophisticated revenue management systems can easily match LCC fares and offer all the benefits of their FFPs and large networks and drive the LCCs out of business.

Yes, on say MAN-BGR, BA, AA, DL, VS, UA, BD would start a route war with say U2?
 
qf002
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RE: LCC's Flying Transatlantic?

Mon Dec 19, 2011 1:01 pm

Quoting GT4EZY (Reply 14):
LCC's will operate long haul one day.... Just not anytime in the short/mid term.
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 15):
Costs of operating longhaul services are not compatible with LCC operations. Just look at all the failed longhaul LCCs, from People Express to Oasis Hong Kong. And those that are trying (e.g. Air Berlin) are in very poor financial shape.

Wait? What about D7, who are making hundreds of millions of dollar profit every year, and JQ who are apparently doing extremely well. Then consider Scoot, which is looking to be the next big thing (if SQ gets their way).

I don't think it's the pure concept that's flawed, it's the market we're talking about it being executed in. There isn't room for the growth of mini-players in the transatlantic market (just look at how dominated it is by the big BA-AA-IB and LH-UA tie-ups) like there is in other regions. If one of the big players were to back a small LCC player then I think it would be successful, with the massive resources at its disposal being the way over the market obstacles.
 
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RE: LCC's Flying Transatlantic?

Mon Dec 19, 2011 1:12 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 15):
Costs of operating longhaul services are not compatible with LCC operations. Just look at all the failed longhaul LCCs

Yes please do some research in to Air Asia X and their profits/expansion. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AirAsia_X#Future_expansion
Where's the passion gone out of the airline industry? The smell of jetfuel and the romance of taking a flight....
 
jonnyclark
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RE: LCC's Flying Transatlantic?

Mon Dec 19, 2011 4:01 pm

Let's not forget that Jet2.com offer (a few) flights to New York every year on their 757's from a variety of airports in the north of England. Whilst mainly a publicity stunt, it does warrant noting they do continue to offer it every year. Small glimmers like this and Sun County are starting to test the water I feel within the industry. Plus with easyJet now also flying to Reykjavik, there could be the possibility in the future of a transatlantic point to point connection over there with a base in Reykjavik?
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roseflyer
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RE: LCC's Flying Transatlantic?

Mon Dec 19, 2011 4:29 pm

I think we will be seeing more LCC transatlantic flying. Norweigian Air Shuttle will be soon receiving 787s in an economy/premium economy layout with no business class and propose New York as a destination.

Quoting JaxMan19 (Thread starter):
I was wondering if B6 or SW or any new start up airline could fly an A320 or a 737 to connect smaller mid sized cities like JAX, TPA,BNA,PVD,and CMH to European cities like CDG, LHR and FRA? would it be too expensive? What do you guys think?

I don't think a 737MAX or A320NEO series airplane is the right one for the job. With a higher density all economy layout, they'll have some range problems unless we see a surprise payload increase that hasn't been announced yet. Also, despite the costs of using the more expensive airports like LHR, the larger efficient widebodies will be tough to compete with.

B6 has grown at the expensive of other airlines. It's core markets are markets that are already well established. B6 does it with lower costs and has taken control of the Northeast - Florida market, which is their bread and butter. They have taken over many Caribbean routes as AA shrunk. I don't think B6 would be the airline to start flying from smaller mid sized markets like you mention. If they are going transatlantic, they'd likely keep their strategy and go for New York - London and try to get their costs down so that they have lower CASM and can compete. However doing this with smaller planes on a route where premium cabins earn a significant portion of the revenue would be a challenge.

Quoting mariner (Reply 4):
Sun Country flies MSP to London - via Gander - every summer.

Wasn't the purpose of that route so that Sun Country could maintain ETOPS so they could do DOD charters that require ETOPS?
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
Viscount724
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RE: LCC's Flying Transatlantic?

Mon Dec 19, 2011 4:49 pm

Quoting richardw (Reply 17):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 15):
Major carriers with their sophisticated revenue management systems can easily match LCC fares and offer all the benefits of their FFPs and large networks and drive the LCCs out of business.

Yes, on say MAN-BGR, BA, AA, DL, VS, UA, BD would start a route war with say U2?

Not nonstsop, but several transatlantic carriers also serve BGR with connections (DL and US come to mind). They can easily match or undercut a LCC's fares for a while until the LCC finally gives up.

Quoting jetfuel (Reply 19):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 15):
Costs of operating longhaul services are not compatible with LCC operations. Just look at all the failed longhaul LCCs

Yes please do some research in to Air Asia X and their profits/expansion.

The subject of this thread is Transatlantic LCCs. Carriers based in North America and Europe don't benefit from the same type of low cost structure as those in Asia where wages/salaries and certain other costs are lower.

[Edited 2011-12-19 09:29:05]
 
rutankrd
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RE: LCC's Flying Transatlantic?

Mon Dec 19, 2011 5:12 pm

Krudly put on a typical long haul three Plus class service the

Quoting richardw (Reply 12):
easyJet operate some long routes on one rotation per day, such as MAN-SSH, LON-AMM, so what's the difference between these routes and say MAN-BGR, is it just a little bit of a longer sector with more ocean below?

No its not just i bit more ocean its about 2500mile of more ocean - Younneed ETOP s certification for a start and therefore a dedicated fleet ( Sure could be used on inter Europe/Canaries during daylight i suppose) limiting the ability to move through the system as both Easy and Ryan do today.

Not a lot of sea really on the way to Egypt other than a dash across the Southern Med and remaining in easy reach of Cyprus/Crete all the time.

Acknowledged the Egypt and Jordan service are VERY long sectors for LCC/Flexible fares style ops, however the Egypt routes certainly follow the traditional IT route with heavy sales of Hotel accommodation forming what are really packages.
Must say The Amman service remain an enigma !

This package approach is also done by Jet2/Holidays and Monarch/Cosmos Group plus TCX and TOM.

Again i emphases the need for significant fare balancing on long sectors . In the case of the Legacies they get the majority of the revenue and potential profit from as little as 20% of seat/tickets (Full Economy/Business/First) per flight with the remaining 80%(Economy) perhaps just covering costs.

And again they have a feed fare structure that allocates the largest proportion of ticketing on the long sector plus of course they have alliances with either pooling or on-selling (Often the code share partners ticket will be higher or limited availability)

The standard Low Fares structure can not accommodate these variables and without allowing feeder fares they fail.

I know that Jet2 have operated a series of NewYork services close to Christmas however these really aren't that different to good old ABC charters as the majority of the sales have included accommodation.

As i said previously i do not rule out LCC carriers operating Trans Atlantic but the business model will have to differ from the Ryanair/Easy/JetBlue/South West - approach because that can not work period !
 
skipness1E
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RE: LCC's Flying Transatlantic?

Mon Dec 19, 2011 5:22 pm

Quoting jonnyclark (Reply 20):
Let's not forget that Jet2.com offer (a few) flights to New York every year on their 757's from a variety of airports in the north of England. Whilst mainly a publicity stunt, it does warrant noting they do continue to offer it every year.

It's not a stunt, it means that at that time of year there is enough of a market to make some money on a Christmas shopping charter. It means nothing else alas.
 
747400sp
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RE: LCC's Flying Transatlantic?

Mon Dec 19, 2011 6:44 pm

Quoting JaxMan19 (Thread starter):
I was wondering if B6 or SW or any new start up airline could fly an A320 or a 737 to connect smaller mid sized cities like JAX, TPA,BNA,PVD,and CMH to European cities like CDG, LHR and FRA? would it be too expensive? What do you guys think?






DO NOT GIVE THEM AY IDEALS!! 737 and A32x, should be band from going across the pond or Hawaii. Now BA all business class A318s, is the only exception, that I will except.
 
rutankrd
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RE: LCC's Flying Transatlantic?

Mon Dec 19, 2011 7:01 pm

Quoting 747400sp (Reply 25):
DO NOT GIVE THEM AY IDEALS!! 737 and A32x, should be band from going across the pond or Hawaii. Now BA all business class A318s, is the only exception, that I will except.

Plus Private Air for various LH Group with 73NG and A319 !
 
YULWinterSkies
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RE: LCC's Flying Transatlantic?

Mon Dec 19, 2011 7:13 pm

Quoting JaxMan19 (Thread starter):
I was wondering if B6 or SW or any new start up airline could fly an A320 or a 737 to connect smaller mid sized cities like JAX, TPA,BNA,PVD,and CMH to European cities like CDG, LHR and FRA? would it be too expensive? What do you guys think?

They would need aircraft that have the range to do it non-stop, which neither 737 and A320 can do (and a 757 would be border line or impossible for most cities you mention). They can overcome this with bigger aircraft which also provide better CASM, if used at capacity. Then, it would probably not be too expensive. However, they would have to fill up the flights, and if the mentioned cities have no t-atl service, there has to be a reason and it's probably not because LH, BA or AF do not know that these cities exist and have not looked into the markets already!
When I doubt... go running!
 
David_itl
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RE: LCC's Flying Transatlantic?

Mon Dec 19, 2011 7:18 pm

Quoting 747400sp (Reply 25):
737 and A32x, should be band from going across the pond or Hawaii

Why? Caravelles and 727s have done Atlantic crossings with a stopover, with better aircraft performance they could do it more fuel efficiently now and even better if they get the capability of operating non-stop.
 
rutankrd
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RE: LCC's Flying Transatlantic?

Mon Dec 19, 2011 7:22 pm

Quoting david_itl (Reply 28):
Why? Caravelles and 727s have done Atlantic crossings with a stopover, with better aircraft performance they could do it more fuel efficiently now and even better if they get the capability of operating non-stop.

Those Scandinavians were resourceful were they not , oh and remember the Wardair 721 !
 
747400sp
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RE: LCC's Flying Transatlantic?

Mon Dec 19, 2011 7:55 pm

Quoting 747400sp (Reply 25):
Now BA all business class A318s, is the only exception, that I will except.







Let me add to this, Odyssey Air new all business C-Series TATL service coming in the future, is also an exception.

Quoting david_itl (Reply 28):
Why? Caravelles and 727s have done Atlantic crossings with a stopover, with better aircraft performance they could do it more fuel efficiently now and even better if they get the capability of operating non-stop.




I did not know Caravelles did TATL other than delivery flights for UA. Which TATL routes did Caravelles and 727 fly, and which airlines other than SAS and Ward Air, use these a/c across the pond?
 
LGWflyer
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RE: LCC's Flying Transatlantic?

Mon Dec 19, 2011 8:06 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 4):
I assume it will fly in 2012 because it is on the route map, but It believe it has shifted from STN to LGW:

Yes they flew to LGW this year for the first time and will return around May.
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David_itl
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RE: LCC's Flying Transatlantic?

Mon Dec 19, 2011 8:07 pm

Beliveve both Sterling and Transwede went to MIA from CPH and ARN respectively using the Caravelle, think Sterling may have used the 727 as well. American Flyers used 727s into MAN (perhaps from JFK?)
 
CargoIT
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RE: LCC's Flying Transatlantic?

Mon Dec 19, 2011 9:20 pm

It seems like there are less 757s flying TATL than there used to be. As a PAX, I think this is good. I'd much rather be on a 67 or an A330.
Even a 57 can only carry about 160-170 PAX TATL and almost no freight. This leads me to think it unlikely that we'll see 737s or 320s, even MAX or NEO, flying TATL with a LLC PAX configuratioin.
 
2travel2know2
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RE: LCC's Flying Transatlantic?

Mon Dec 19, 2011 9:41 pm

IMHO, If there is a sustainable market between Northern Ireland or Scotland and Nova Scotia or New England, and if U2 planes were ETOPS certified, maybe just maybe, U2 could study the potential of those routes..
And now that WN got FL, Could a WN B737-700 all Y-cabin make it BGR-LTN?
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1stfl94
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RE: LCC's Flying Transatlantic?

Mon Dec 19, 2011 10:53 pm

I think the transatlantic market is too crowded to get LCCs in, especially given that they can't cut many of the costs associated with long haul flights. Whilst A32Xs and 737NGs can do Europe-North America we're talking places like Bangor and Gander. To get to JFK, BOS, MCO your talking need for fuel stops or longer range aircraft and crew will be working long enough to warrant rest breaks, meaning hotels and further costs. Also, if someone like U2 or B6 wanted to go long haul they'd probably only start small using a few aircraft, losing out on the discounts they get when they order 100+ jets which they can easily put to use on shorthaul routes.

Secondly the cheap seats are now where the established carriers make their money. BA's most profitable cabins are Club World and World Traveller Plus. What's to stop them putting on a sale in World Traveller if Easyjet decides it wants to transatlantic (basically what all the airlines did to Laker back in the 1980s). Also would Easyjet (for argument's sake) fares be much cheaper than the established carriers. Air Asia X may be low costs but when I've compared prices, Emirates and Etihad are usually cheaper to the Far East and that's before any extras.
 
richardw
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RE: LCC's Flying Transatlantic?

Mon Dec 19, 2011 11:43 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 22):
Quoting richardw (Reply 17):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 15):
Major carriers with their sophisticated revenue management systems can easily match LCC fares and offer all the benefits of their FFPs and large networks and drive the LCCs out of business.

Yes, on say MAN-BGR, BA, AA, DL, VS, UA, BD would start a route war with say U2?

Not nonstsop, but several transatlantic carriers also serve BGR with connections (DL and US come to mind). They can easily match or undercut a LCC's fares for a while until the LCC finally gives up.

I don't think DL or US would bother, they haven't really got that much to lose on a route such as LPL or MAN to BGR.
 
YVRLTN
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RE: LCC's Flying Transatlantic?

Tue Dec 20, 2011 3:02 am

I think an established brand like FR or U2 could make it work, but not with a narrowbody. Use A333's 9 abreast and you have a lot of seats to sell. Im pretty sure they would fill aircraft in the exact same way as they get 189 pax from BRS to some regional airport in Poland - who would have dreamt of such a thing 15-20 years ago? I think LGW & MAN to EWR, MCO & CUN to start would work very well. Then add other key existing bases in France, Germany, Italy, Poland etc.

Get them on there with cheap fares, then charge them for every bag with premiums over 10 kgs, every drink & meal and try and flog phone cards, lotto tickets, duty free and whatever else it is the cabin crew will be passing through the cabin with shortly. And people will buy it, if their fare was cheap, just like they do on intra EU flights. It always amazes me the need people have to buy multiple G&T's etc on a 2hr flight just because they are going on holiday.

One thing for sure though if this were too happen. Bye bye VS apart from LHR ops.
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eugdog
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RE: LCC's Flying Transatlantic?

Tue Dec 20, 2011 6:13 pm

I do not think the LCc model works as well omn long haul. Reasons are

1) more people are prepared to pay a bit extra for comfort on longer flights. I always travel Ryanair for short haul but BA for flights to canada.
2) the ability to get more rotations in per day is less on LCc. You cannot get more then one round trip London new York in 24 hours no matter how short the turn around is
3) the legacy earn huge margins on business travellers. This makes it easier to offer low cost seats to leisure travellers at prices hard for the LCc to match especially in off peak times for business travellers
4) LCC will find it hard to attract business travellers because they cannot offer frequent flyer programmes as good as the legacies because of their limited network

I am not saying it impossible to have a long haul LCc but it is harder to make profit then on short haul.
 
stlgph
Posts: 9179
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 4:19 pm

RE: LCC's Flying Transatlantic?

Tue Dec 20, 2011 6:15 pm

Quoting LGWflyer (Reply 31):

Quoting mariner (Reply 4):
I assume it will fly in 2012 because it is on the route map, but It believe it has shifted from STN to LGW:

Yes they flew to LGW this year for the first time and will return around May.

Sun Country returning to London is not a complete guarantee .... but leaning towards likely.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 15456
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

RE: LCC's Flying Transatlantic?

Tue Dec 20, 2011 6:32 pm

Quoting jetfuel (Reply 19):
Yes please do some research in to Air Asia X and their profits/expansion.
Quoting qf002 (Reply 18):
What about D7, who are making hundreds of millions of dollar profit every year

The minority of D7 departures are longhaul, in the sense of Transatlantic stage length. Most of their flights are within the range of the 320, and their truly longhaul stuff is clearly not hitting the mark:

AirAsia X Plans To Axe LGW, ORY, DEL, BOM -Report (by airpearl Dec 19 2011 in Civil Aviation)
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
richardw
Posts: 3142
Joined: Tue May 08, 2001 3:17 am

RE: LCC's Flying Transatlantic?

Tue Dec 20, 2011 6:37 pm

Quoting eugdog (Reply 38):
the ability to get more rotations in per day is less on LCc. You cannot get more then one round trip London new York in 24 hours no matter how short the turn around is

Yes, but if a rotation to say BGR from MAN is 15 hours overnight, that leaves 9 hours for shorter, fatter rotations during the day from MAN to Europe.
 
2travel2know2
Posts: 2337
Joined: Mon Apr 26, 2010 3:01 pm

RE: LCC's Flying Transatlantic?

Tue Dec 20, 2011 7:25 pm

Compare U2's longest routes with some "short" transatlantic routes from U2 base airports in U.K.:

LGW (51°08'53"N 0°11'25"W) LXR (25°40'16"N 32°42'24"E) 122.9° (SE) 2144 nm
MAN (53°21'13"N 2°16'30"W) SSH (27°58'38"N 34°23'42"E) 118.6° (SE) 2220 nm

GLA (55°52'19"N 4°25'59"W) YHZ (44°52'51"N 63°30'31"W) 278.9° (W) 2286 nm
GLA (55°52'19"N 4°25'59"W) BGR (44°48'27"N 68°49'41"W) 282.5° (W) 2465 nm
BFS (54°39'27"N 6°12'57"W) YHZ (44°52'51"N 63°30'31"W) 279.2° (W) 2237 nm
BFS (54°39'27"N 6°12'57"W) BGR (44°48'27"N 68°49'41"W) 282.7° (W) 2421 nm
LTN (51°52'29"N 0°22'06"W) YHZ (44°52'51"N 63°30'31"W) 286.2° (W) 2479 nm
LTN (51°52'29"N 0°22'06"W) BGR (44°48'27"N 68°49'41"W) 289.3° (W) 2670 nm
From www.gcmap.com

How is the market between U.K. and Nova Scotia and New England?
I'm not on CM's payroll.
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19287
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: LCC's Flying Transatlantic?

Tue Dec 20, 2011 7:49 pm

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 26):
Quoting 747400sp (Reply 25):
DO NOT GIVE THEM AY IDEALS!! 737 and A32x, should be band from going across the pond or Hawaii. Now BA all business class A318s, is the only exception, that I will except.

Plus Private Air for various LH Group with 73NG and A319 !

PrivatAir disposed of their A319s a couple of years ago. I think 2 are now with Aegean and 2 with Etihad. And their 737NGs are BBJs with extra tanks, not standard 737s. Apart from a few routes operated for LH, the only other remaining PrivatAir scheduled operation for a LH group airline is the all-business class ZRH-EWR service for LX but that ends in March when LX takes it over using an A330-300. Their all-business class BBJ that was operating for KL on AMS-IAH has been parked at GVA since October when that service ended. KLnow operates the 2nd AMS-IAH flight themselves using an A330-200 (in addition to the daily 744M combi).

Quoting david_itl (Reply 32):
Beliveve both Sterling and Transwede went to MIA from CPH and ARN respectively using the Caravelle, think Sterling may have used the 727 as well.

Sterling's 727-200s that were used on various transatlantic charter routes including CPH-YYZ were the highest gross weight 727s built. On rare occasions I think they were able to do that route nonstop eastbound, possibly when being ferried empty.


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expatmatt
Posts: 56
Joined: Tue Oct 26, 2004 4:07 am

RE: LCC's Flying Transatlantic?

Tue Dec 20, 2011 8:10 pm

Quoting American 767 (Reply 6):
I remember City Bird back in the late 90s. They started TATL operations in 1997 with a couple of MD-11s configured in a 3-4-3 seat layout. They used to fly out of BRU to EWR, MIA, LAX and SFO. They flew MD-11s and 767s TATL until they went out of business in the early 2000s. I remember how excited most Belgians were because the fares to the United States were low.

Ben Soriano

CityBird was actually one of the first transatlantic LCCs (Laker was probably the first).... CTB flew scheduled flights from BRU to EWR, MIA, MCO, LAX, LAS, OAK and MEX... plus BRU-originating charters for tour operators like Neckermann and Sunsnaks to destinations all over the Caribbean including a flight to that was routed BRU-MCO-SDQ-BRU which oddly operated as both charter AND scheduled. Scheduled flights were sold as ticketless and at the time, this might have been a 'first' -- a ticketless airline (no electronic ticket number, just a confirmation code only).

In 1997 and 1998, they had their own MD-11 (OO-CTB) and also a leased MD-11 from World Airways, then they added 2 767-300s to their fleet (OO-CTQ and OO-CTR). Around 2000, they added more 767-300s, 737s and A300Fs, plus MD11s. They shut down in 2001 after having tried a lot of different things -- selling "connecting" flights with Virgin Express and Sabena (but yet you were on your own for missed connections even if CTB's fault), operating for Sabena (an arrangement for flights to YUL and GRU), operating cargo flights, flying into Africa, etc.

CTB's fares were ridiculously cheap -- sometimes as low as USD $99 each way EWR/BRU for "Colibri" Economy Class and you could upgrade to their Business Class ("Royal Eagle") for as little as $250 or $300 one way at the airport on departure. The MD11 Business Class had a nice hard (physical) product -- seats were 2-2-2 (other airlines like Delta were 2-3-2 for their MD11 Business Class), but the meal service was sometimes odd since some dishes were served in aluminum TV-dinner tins!

Sorry to get slightly off topic here, but wanted to put more info out there about CTB since they really were one of the first transatlantic LCCs out there.
 
richardw
Posts: 3142
Joined: Tue May 08, 2001 3:17 am

RE: LCC's Flying Transatlantic?

Tue Dec 20, 2011 8:16 pm

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 42):
How is the market between U.K. and Nova Scotia and New England?

For LHR-YHZ in high summer 21-28 July 2011, AC has

AC861
London, Heathrow (LHR)
Terminal 3
Halifax, Halifax Int'l (YHZ)
Sat Jul-21 12:35 15:15
0 6hr40 763

AC860
Halifax, Halifax Int'l (YHZ)
London, Heathrow (LHR)
Terminal 3
Sat Jul-28 23:45 09:35
+1 day 0 5hr50 763

Total charge for 1 adult
Grand Total - pounds Sterling
£1005.06

for LHR-BOS VS has

Outward journey Sat 21 Jul 2012
London - Boston Flight No.VS011
15:05 Sat 21 Jul 2012
London (Heathrow)17:35 Sat 21 Jul 2012
Boston (Logan)
Cabin: Economy
Duration: 7 hrs, 30 mins

Return journey Sat 28 Jul 2012
Boston - London Flight No.VS012
19:45 Sat 28 Jul 2012
Boston (Logan)07:20 Sun 29 Jul 2012
London (Heathrow)
Cabin: Economy
Duration: 6 hrs, 35 mins

Total fare GBP 823.96 per adult

[Edited 2011-12-20 12:21:19]

[Edited 2011-12-20 12:22:05]
 
BOStonsox
Posts: 530
Joined: Sun Dec 30, 2007 5:20 am

RE: LCC's Flying Transatlantic?

Tue Dec 20, 2011 8:23 pm

If any LCC goes TATL, they will not go to BGR unless it's a fuel stop. BGR doesn't even have service to BOS! For Boston they would serve PVD, as it has (or had) customs and has train service to Boston proper.
2013 World Series Champions!
 
LGWflyer
Posts: 2233
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 6:38 pm

RE: LCC's Flying Transatlantic?

Tue Dec 20, 2011 8:32 pm

Quoting stlgph (Reply 39):
Sun Country returning to London is not a complete guarantee .... but leaning towards likely.

Well I hope to see them back again! Did you know how the loads were?
3 words... I Love Aviation!!!
 
AADC10
Posts: 1509
Joined: Sat Nov 13, 2004 7:40 am

RE: LCC's Flying Transatlantic?

Tue Dec 20, 2011 9:15 pm

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 9):
Maybe the A319NEO will be a game changer, because I expect it to combine enough range with good economics

Maybe, maybe not. The increased range will encompass more destinations but fuel burn will be an issue. The A320NEO and 737MAX series while more efficient than the aircraft that they will replace will still be less efficient per seat than larger aircraft such as the 777, 787, A330 and A350, particularly on longer flights. An LCC might be able to make up some of the difference with lower labor costs but they have to overcome the fuel costs. On shorter routes and domestic flights, the fuel costs are closer. The higher fuel goes, the greater the disadvantage.
 
2travel2know2
Posts: 2337
Joined: Mon Apr 26, 2010 3:01 pm

RE: LCC's Flying Transatlantic?

Wed Dec 21, 2011 5:40 am

Quoting richardw (Reply 45):
For LHR-YHZ in high summer 21-28 July 2011, AC has

AC861
London, Heathrow (LHR)
Terminal 3
Halifax, Halifax Int'l (YHZ)
Sat Jul-21 12:35 15:15
0 6hr40 763

AC860
Halifax, Halifax Int'l (YHZ)
London, Heathrow (LHR)
Terminal 3
Sat Jul-28 23:45 09:35
+1 day 0 5hr50 763

Total charge for 1 adult
Grand Total - pounds Sterling
£1005.06

If U2 has the aircraft for LTN-YHZ (or LPL-YHZ), could U2 fly that route return for GBP500 and still make money?

Quoting BOStonsox (Reply 46):
If any LCC goes TATL, they will not go to BGR unless it's a fuel stop. BGR doesn't even have service to BOS! For Boston they would serve PVD, as it has (or had) customs and has train service to Boston proper.

I mentioned BGR because the distance from the U.K.
If Boston is what the LLC (hypothetically U2 in this case) wants, then:

BFS (54°39'27"N 6°12'57"W) MHT (42°55'58"N 71°26'09"W) 282.2° (W) 2580 nm
BFS (54°39'27"N 6°12'57"W) PVD (41°43'26"N 71°25'42"W) 280.9° (W) 2626 nm
From www.gcmap.com

Not sure if a U2 aircraft could take off from PVD runway for a non-stop to BFS.

U2 has quite a loyal following, if U2 was to start flights to YHZ and/or MHT/PVD, even if U2 discourage connections, some passengers might fly to U2 transatlantic gateways just to fly with them to North America. Westjet and WN would then take care of those passengers when in YHZ and/or MHT/PVD.
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