qf340500
Posts: 220
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2011 4:22 am

Etihad Biggest Single Shareholder In Airberlin

Mon Dec 19, 2011 7:16 am

just read on DowJones news:

Etihad Airways to increase stake in airberlin to 29 per cent as part of a wide ranging strategic partnership

- Combined network of 239 destinations

- airberlin to launch Berlin-Abu Dhabi flights

- Etihad Airways to provide five-year financing facilities of up to US$ 255 million to support fleet development and future network growth

Sounds great for both airlines.... WELL DONE! All the best for airberlin and Etihad, i like both companies...

Question: So is Etihad goin to join oneworld eventually???
 
kiwiandrew

RE: Etihad Biggest Single Shareholder In Airberlin

Mon Dec 19, 2011 7:25 am

Interesting development, definitely good for Air Berlin who have been struggling lately ( then again, who hasn't been?)

Quoting QF340500 (Thread starter):
Question: So is Etihad goin to join oneworld eventually???

Considering that they only recently moved away from QF to partner with Virgin Australia that doesn't seem overly likely ( to me, anyway) . If you look at their codeshare arrangments they are all over the place Oneworld, Skyteam, Star and non-aligned

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etihad_Airways#Codeshare_agreements

the same with their frequent flyer ties

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etihad_Airways#Loyalty_programme

I don't really think that any of the big three Gulf airlines ( QR/EK/EY) are seriously looking at alliance membership.

[Edited 2011-12-18 23:26:18]
 
Burkhard
Posts: 1916
Joined: Fri Nov 17, 2006 9:34 pm

RE: Etihad Biggest Single Shareholder In Airberlin

Mon Dec 19, 2011 7:26 am

Looks like the survival strategy for airlines that are too small to survive is to get Gulf partners. I expected EK to go for AB a while ago, but they made their math and decided for HAM and STR over BER, so Hapag Lloyd fits better to them.
 
dazeflight
Posts: 481
Joined: Tue Jun 22, 1999 1:32 am

RE: Etihad Biggest Single Shareholder In Airberlin

Mon Dec 19, 2011 11:51 am

^ What exactly leads you to believe that EK did their math and recently decided for HAM (a destination for years) and STR (for which they don't have any rights)? Any substance in that assertion?
 
Burkhard
Posts: 1916
Joined: Fri Nov 17, 2006 9:34 pm

RE: Etihad Biggest Single Shareholder In Airberlin

Mon Dec 19, 2011 1:45 pm

Sorry, it was DUS and not STR they prefer over BER together with HAM, FRA and MUC.
 
mikey72
Posts: 1439
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2009 1:31 pm

RE: Etihad Biggest Single Shareholder In Airberlin

Mon Dec 19, 2011 1:50 pm

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 1):
Considering that they only recently moved away from QF to partner with Virgin Australia that doesn't seem overly likely ( to me, anyway) . If you look at their codeshare arrangments they are all over the place Oneworld, Skyteam, Star and non-aligned

The German company will go ahead with plans to join the Oneworld group of airlines next year, today’s statement said, even though the alliance includes BA owner International Consolidated Airlines Group SA.
Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
 
steman
Posts: 1400
Joined: Wed Aug 09, 2000 4:55 pm

RE: Etihad Biggest Single Shareholder In Airberlin

Mon Dec 19, 2011 2:00 pm

This really came as a surprise for me.
I thought the oneworld tie up, together with the restructuring plan would have lead to
a take over from IAG
I guess this is ruled out, for the time being.
But if this means that AB stays afloat, I´m happy.
I love Lufthansa but I don´t want them to have a semi monopoly
in Germany. Competition is always good.
 
LHRFlyer
Posts: 685
Joined: Sun Apr 11, 2010 12:50 pm

RE: Etihad Biggest Single Shareholder In Airberlin

Mon Dec 19, 2011 2:16 pm

I would be surprised if IAG wasn't offered the opportunity to acquire an equity stake in Air Berlin.

For whatever reason IAG hasn't and I doubt this decision would have been taken lightly.
 
Burkhard
Posts: 1916
Joined: Fri Nov 17, 2006 9:34 pm

RE: Etihad Biggest Single Shareholder In Airberlin

Mon Dec 19, 2011 2:21 pm

BA has burned money on the German Market once already (dba) - I expect them to be very careful to do so again. One thing I see is that BER continues to be a little bit of everything, from the national airline of Mallorca to a one world feeder and now an Etihad feeder. Is this desperation or or a wise strategy?
 
mikey72
Posts: 1439
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2009 1:31 pm

RE: Etihad Biggest Single Shareholder In Airberlin

Mon Dec 19, 2011 2:31 pm

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 8):
BA has burned money on the German Market once already (dba)

Quite ironic really...what's BD costing LH at the moment ?

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 8):
Is this desperation or or a wise strategy?

Having an airline with a bottomless pit of cash at its disposal invest in you sounds pretty good to me....
Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Crew
Posts: 11734
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

RE: Etihad Biggest Single Shareholder In Airberlin

Mon Dec 19, 2011 4:36 pm

Quoting QF340500 (Thread starter):
Etihad Airways to increase stake in airberlin to 29 per cent as part of a wide ranging strategic partnership

   Am I the only one who didn't see this coming?

Quoting QF340500 (Thread starter):

- airberlin to launch Berlin-Abu Dhabi flights

Does EY have rights to BER? Or would they have to drop another city a la EK?

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 1):
I don't really think that any of the big three Gulf airlines ( QR/EK/EY) are seriously looking at alliance membership.

Off all the alliances EY seems 'pre-disposed' to OneWorld. However, only QR seems truly interested in an alliance (Star) with any seriousness. EK's strategy would be hurt by joining an alliance, so they won't.

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 8):
One thing I see is that BER continues to be a little bit of everything, from the national airline of Mallorca to a one world feeder and now an Etihad feeder. Is this desperation or or a wise strategy?

AB finally consolidating to BER will help them tremendously. Having east and west feed at two different airports is not going to gain customers. It would be quicker to fly to FRA, CDG, AMS, or LHR and connect than fly into one Berlin airport, drive across town, and check back in at another airport.

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 1):
Considering that they only recently moved away from QF to partner with Virgin Australia that doesn't seem overly likely ( to me, anyway)

That move away from QF surprised me. I almost wonder if this is EY stating hey BA/QF, you're too cozy. Let us play or we'll find alternatives... Then again, EY joining oneworld would naturally merge the partnership with QF.

I see EY going with OneWorld. However, there is zero advantage going that way until all the OneWorld bankruptcies 'shake out' and AA/EY form more agreements too.

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 2):
Looks like the survival strategy for airlines that are too small to survive is to get Gulf partners.

You mean like UA?   If one 'stretches the definition' of Gulf partners to include TK, it is almost a requirement to partner with: EK/QR/EY/TK for regional access. This is a market that should have gone to the Indian airlines too... but the lack of 'oportunities to partner for flights not including an Indian airline at Indian airports' has severely constricted their growth.

Lightsaber
"They did not know it was impossible, so they did it!" - Mark Twain
 
Viscount724
Posts: 18831
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: Etihad Biggest Single Shareholder In Airberlin

Mon Dec 19, 2011 4:54 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 10):

Does EY have rights to BER? Or would they have to drop another city a la EK?

I believe UAE carriers combined (meaning EK plus EY) are restricted to 4 cities in Germany and since 4 are currently being served (FRA/MUC/HAM/DUS) no additional points can be added until the bilateral is liberalized.
 
something
Posts: 1239
Joined: Fri May 13, 2011 5:29 pm

RE: Etihad Biggest Single Shareholder In Airberlin

Mon Dec 19, 2011 4:56 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 10):
Quoting QF340500 (Thread starter):

- airberlin to launch Berlin-Abu Dhabi flights

Does EY have rights to BER? Or would they have to drop another city a la EK?

EY currently have rights to serve three German airports at unlimited frequency and seat number. They're currently using their rights to MUC, FRA and DUS. AB is also not really ''launching'' AUH flights, as much as it is moving its existing DXB flights to AUH.

This is clearly a move for EY to expand their market share in Germany. I would not be surprised if AB started flying to AUH from STR, HAM and maybe even HAJ on 738 equipment in the future.
..sick of it. -K. Pilkington.
 
LOWS
Posts: 1194
Joined: Sun Oct 23, 2011 5:37 am

RE: Etihad Biggest Single Shareholder In Airberlin

Mon Dec 19, 2011 5:03 pm

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 8):
national airline of Mallorca

  

I'll never forget the time they wanted to send me SZG-LPA-HAM! Took the train instead.

AB needs to figure out what it is. It still looks and acts like a LCC. Niki is definitely an LCC.
 
kiwiandrew

RE: Etihad Biggest Single Shareholder In Airberlin

Mon Dec 19, 2011 5:43 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 10):
Off all the alliances EY seems 'pre-disposed' to OneWorld.

What makes you say that? As I mentioned in my earlier post they have just very strongly moved away from OW founder QF, furthermore

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 1):
If you look at their codeshare arrangments they are all over the place Oneworld, Skyteam, Star and non-aligned

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etihad_Airways#Codeshare_agreements

the same with their frequent flyer ties

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etihad_...ramme

One could just as easily say that EY is 'pre-disposed' towards Skyteam/Star/remaining independent of any alliance ( the last being the most likely in my opinion). What does alliance membership offer EY? What does EY bring to the table for existing member airlines of an alliance?
 
something
Posts: 1239
Joined: Fri May 13, 2011 5:29 pm

RE: Etihad Biggest Single Shareholder In Airberlin

Mon Dec 19, 2011 6:06 pm

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 14):
What does alliance membership offer EY? What does EY bring to the table for existing member airlines of an alliance?

You join an alliance to open your domestic network to international carriers and vice versa. EY doesn't have domestic traffic and therefore, I would assume: Other than the reduction of competition on certain routes, not much.
..sick of it. -K. Pilkington.
 
mikey72
Posts: 1439
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2009 1:31 pm

RE: Etihad Biggest Single Shareholder In Airberlin

Mon Dec 19, 2011 6:20 pm

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 14):
One could just as easily say that EY is 'pre-disposed' towards Skyteam/Star/remaining independent of any alliance ( the last being the most likely in my opinion). What does alliance membership offer EY? What does EY bring to the table for existing member airlines of an alliance?

Through Air Berlin, EY will gain immediate access to a broad and complementary European market, with outstanding connectivity options for customers of both airlines.

The deal opens EY's network to 33 million potential new customers. The two carriers generate a combined total of more than $9bn in revenues, carry more than 40 million passengers and employ 18,000 people.

Etihad will also provide up to $255m (£165m) in financing over the next five years to Germany's second largest airline.

Sounds like they're bringing quite alot to future Oneworld member Air Berlin and by consequence Oneworld...
Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
 
something
Posts: 1239
Joined: Fri May 13, 2011 5:29 pm

RE: Etihad Biggest Single Shareholder In Airberlin

Mon Dec 19, 2011 6:25 pm

All of South East Asia can very elegantly be funneled through AUH-DUS/BER and then on to JFK/MIA on AB or possibly ORD if AA should start such a service. Connecting opportunities are abundant.
..sick of it. -K. Pilkington.
 
kiwiandrew

RE: Etihad Biggest Single Shareholder In Airberlin

Mon Dec 19, 2011 6:49 pm

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 16):
Sounds like they're bringing quite alot to future Oneworld member Air Berlin and by consequence Oneworld...

I'm sorry, but it stills seems to me that some posters are taking an equity relationship with a single airline which just happens to be a future member of a particular alliance and trying to extrapolate it into an alliance 'signal' of some sort.

I think this development is very significant for Air Berlin, but whether it has much bearing on any future EY relationship with other Oneworld members is yet to be seen.
 
Markam
Posts: 318
Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2008 6:17 am

RE: Etihad Biggest Single Shareholder In Airberlin

Mon Dec 19, 2011 7:16 pm

Quoting LOWS (Reply 13):
I'll never forget the time they wanted to send me SZG-LPA-HAM! Took the train instead.

Did they really route you from Salzburg to Hamburg via Las Palmas, in the Canary Islands, or do you mean PMI, Palma de Mallorca airport, instead of LPA?  
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Crew
Posts: 11734
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

RE: Etihad Biggest Single Shareholder In Airberlin

Mon Dec 19, 2011 7:36 pm

Quoting something (Reply 12):
EY currently have rights to serve three German airports at unlimited frequency and seat number. They're currently using their rights to MUC, FRA and DUS. AB is also not really ''launching'' AUH flights, as much as it is moving its existing DXB flights to AUH.

Is it 3 or 4? I'm just asking for clarification with post #11.

I agree that it is less 'launching' a new flight as re-aligning with a 'strategic partner' versus someone who just code shares.

Quoting something (Reply 12):
I would not be surprised if AB started flying to AUH from STR, HAM and maybe even HAJ on 738 equipment in the future.

I assume the German limits are 3 (or 4) cities to the UAE? (Note, I'm asking to clarify this in my head.) I could see FRA, BER, STR, and then the 4th becomes iffy. FR would want to cut off AB with MUC (since AB is effectively downsizing MUC to 'nothing for LH to worry about').

If by '738 equipment' you mean the 738MAX, I agree. The distances would be a stretch for the 738.

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 14):
What does alliance membership offer EY? What does EY bring to the table for existing member airlines of an alliance?

In my opinion, all alliances will have to have a mid-east partner for regional feed. (Note, I include TK as a candidate in that list. An Indian airline could be included but only after India changes their bilaterals dramatically.)

For EY, it is 'secondary city' European feed. For the Alliance, it is one step further to acheiving '2-stop' connections to 99% of the world's population. I do not think of *any* of the mid-east carriers as they are today.    For EY and QR, I envision their network once they are flying out of their rebuilt then 2-runway airports.

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 14):
What makes you say that?

(In reference to EY and OneWorld vs. other alliances vs. no allinance.)
Their prior year efforts.

Star Alliance I eliminate as TK meets a *huge* fraction of the 'need' that EY would provide. I also state this as QR has been trying to 'allign with Start alliance' (although is a code share with almost anyone a la their competitors). Combined with AI/9W in India... I do not see EY bringing anything of significance to *A.

In my opinion, of the mid-east carriers, QR will bring the most to the 'benefits divided by costs equation (to the alliance)' for all the alliances. Since, in my opinion, they are likely to go towards *A, that cuts off what would be best for EY (*A) when one also considers TK, AI, and 9W's interests.

In fact, I'm not sure why QR is still aligned with *A. Of all the alliances, that alliance will have the most diluted impact in the region for their partners once an Indian airline is on board. IMHO, SkyTeam and OneWorld would offer more to their mid-east partner (even with IT in OneWorld).

Skyteam:
Skyteam needs to strengthen their Africa, mid-East, and Indian (subcontinent) membership. IMHO, they will provide the greatest benefit to the mid-east partner due to the lack of an identified Indian partner. While EY would strengthen them in the region, I'm still trying to get my mind around Saudia and their role in Skyteam. Now some of this plays into what the Virgin Airlines do, in Particular Virgin Australia. If Virgin joins Skyteam (or even just Virgin Australia), then my opinion would instantly change to EY in Skyteam.

Skyteam

OneWorld:
I agree with you that the Virgin Australia vs. QF distances EY from OneWorld. However, unless Virgin is going to form their own alliance with EY (or Skyteam)... It fills the greatest weakness I can identify in the OW network (mid-east) where there would be a large alliance/member benefit. While I realize IT is aligned with OneWorld, I do not have high hopes for their finances.   By filling a large 'weakness' for the alliance, it benefits the alliance with revenue feed from the fastest growing (in terms of air travel) region. For EY, it would also be the revenue.  

As already noted, EY is buying a huge chunk of OneWorld's new European network. I see EY complimenting BA (much more than QR or EK) *and* providing excellent connections for IB. EY has also in the past made overtures to OneWorld. While I realize that doesn't extrapolate to a certainty, it would help.

Note: I do not consider Gulf Air a serious contender for any alliance.

No alliance: EY is simply *not* growing fast enough to remain relevant against TK and EK without joining an alliance. AUH airport sees about a quarter of the traffic of DXB and barely over half the traffic of IST. Now, I make an assumption here. I assume that either AI or IT is going to fail. Once any large Indian airline fails, then 9W is going to have a *huge* opportunity for growth. It doesn't matter, for this discussion, if 9W officially joins *A or just code shares with enough *A; at that point *A is going to be very strong in the region (AI or no AI, do not forget TK). At that future date (post failed large Indian airline), QR and EY are going to receive a wake up call (after a few years). Since neither has the network to fully emulate the EK 'connection effect,' both will have to join an alliance or struggle to compete.

In my opinion, for mid-east alliances QR is in the drivers seat. EK has a model that wouldn't work if they joined an alliance. I realize QR is only about 40% larger than EY... But they are also expanding more agressively.

Long term, of the regions carriers, only the LCCs and EK have a viable strategy for avoiding an alliance. So EY could go OneWorld or Skyteam per my logic. Since joining an alliance doesn't prohibit prior code-shares... It could go either way and is dependent on AI/IT.

Lightsaber
"They did not know it was impossible, so they did it!" - Mark Twain
 
User avatar
Aquila3
Posts: 496
Joined: Sun Nov 14, 2010 3:18 pm

RE: Etihad Biggest Single Shareholder In Airberlin

Mon Dec 19, 2011 8:14 pm

Quoting LOWS (Reply 13):
Niki is definitely an LCC


Yest, probably the best of all. I love them.
And, BTW much better than AUA, all around. This said from a long term loyal LH/LX customer should mean something, go figure.
I hope the new alliance with EY will not disrupt the AB operations from the VIE node.
chi vola vale chi vale vola chi non vola è un vile
 
tcm
Posts: 304
Joined: Sat Jul 17, 2010 11:20 am

RE: Etihad Biggest Single Shareholder In Airberlin

Mon Dec 19, 2011 8:31 pm

BTW, Owners of Pegasus (Turkey) ESAS Holding are relegated to second largest shareholders of AB now that EY is in the game. Pegasus is a rising star in Turkey and I wonder whether EY will extend their interest towards Pegasus which would certainly offer some competition to TK.
 
something
Posts: 1239
Joined: Fri May 13, 2011 5:29 pm

RE: Etihad Biggest Single Shareholder In Airberlin

Mon Dec 19, 2011 8:49 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 20):
Quoting something (Reply 12):
EY currently have rights to serve three German airports at unlimited frequency and seat number. They're currently using their rights to MUC, FRA and DUS. AB is also not really ''launching'' AUH flights, as much as it is moving its existing DXB flights to AUH.

Is it 3 or 4? I'm just asking for clarification with post #11.

I agree that it is less 'launching' a new flight as re-aligning with a 'strategic partner' versus someone who just code shares.

It's four for EK and three for EY as per the agreement.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 20):
I assume the German limits are 3 (or 4) cities to the UAE? (Note, I'm asking to clarify this in my head.) I could see FRA, BER, STR, and then the 4th becomes iffy. FR would want to cut off AB with MUC (since AB is effectively downsizing MUC to 'nothing for LH to worry about').

If by '738 equipment' you mean the 738MAX, I agree. The distances would be a stretch for the 738.

Etihad currently serves MUC, FRA and DUS in Germany maxes out their ''allowance''. Air Berlin has flown 738s to DXB in the past and so have several other airlines. Not sure what penalties they take, but apparently it's possible (and even loaded into the flight plans).

It would be good if AB could start non stop flights to AUH from German/Austrian/Swiss cities that are currently not serviced by EY and feed into the EY network. In reverse, EY could feed passengers onto AB flights to destinations they don't serves themselves either in Europe, or in North and Latin America. I hope their 787s will bring on-board product standards up to par with EY to make this an actual alternative for EY customers.

Personally, I would prefer connecting at DUS over FRA, CDG, LHR anytime.
..sick of it. -K. Pilkington.
 
LOWS
Posts: 1194
Joined: Sun Oct 23, 2011 5:37 am

RE: Etihad Biggest Single Shareholder In Airberlin

Mon Dec 19, 2011 8:53 pm

Quoting Markam (Reply 19):

Did they really route you from Salzburg to Hamburg via Las Palmas, in the Canary Islands, or do you mean PMI, Palma de Mallorca airport, instead of LPA?

Yes sorry, I couldn't remember the exact Spanish holiday destination.

Needless to say, it was a complete shambles of an idea. Hence, why I took the train.
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Crew
Posts: 11734
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

RE: Etihad Biggest Single Shareholder In Airberlin

Mon Dec 19, 2011 9:40 pm

Quoting something (Reply 23):
Air Berlin has flown 738s to DXB in the past and so have several other airlines. Not sure what penalties they take, but apparently it's possible (and even loaded into the flight plans).

Thank you. I was under the impression they were the A330s. However the 738 certainly has good 'non-winter' range. It is only during the winter that I question the 738 at those ranges. Hence my comment on the 737MAX.   

Quoting something (Reply 23):
Personally, I would prefer connecting at DUS over FRA, CDG, LHR anytime.

I think we'll see the same said of BER (hence EY buying shares).

Lightsaber
"They did not know it was impossible, so they did it!" - Mark Twain
 
cmf
Posts: 3120
Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2011 11:22 pm

RE: Etihad Biggest Single Shareholder In Airberlin

Mon Dec 19, 2011 10:03 pm

Quoting something (Reply 15):
You join an alliance to open your domestic network to international carriers and vice versa.

The how did SQ, KL and EI manage to join alliances? And there are others with no or essentially no domestic network.
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
Markam
Posts: 318
Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2008 6:17 am

RE: Etihad Biggest Single Shareholder In Airberlin

Mon Dec 19, 2011 10:14 pm

Quoting LOWS (Reply 24):
Yes sorry, I couldn't remember the exact Spanish holiday destination.

Needless to say, it was a complete shambles of an idea. Hence, why I took the train.

No problem, I just wanted to make sure, because although as you point out a SZG-HAM routing via PMI would mean a big detour, since it would involve flying 1796 miles versus around 425 direct great circle distance, a routing via LPA would involve 4241 miles, or ten times the direct great circle distance... quite a trip!  
 
something
Posts: 1239
Joined: Fri May 13, 2011 5:29 pm

RE: Etihad Biggest Single Shareholder In Airberlin

Mon Dec 19, 2011 10:46 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 25):
Thank you. I was under the impression they were the A330s. However the 738 certainly has good 'non-winter' range. It is only during the winter that I question the 738 at those ranges. Hence my comment on the 737MAX

I'm not a tech expert, but QR flies A319/A320 on these routes on the regular so I would assume the 738 should be able to do the same?

Quoting cmf (Reply 26):
The how did SQ, KL and EI manage to join alliances? And there are others with no or essentially no domestic network.

They serve many destinations in the region. Mostly all of the Gulf-destinations EK or EY serves, are also served from Europe directly or on a plethora of other Star Alliance carriers (MS, TK, etc.) Why Thai and Singapore both are in Star defeats my logical understanding though.

But that is all not to say that neither gulf carrier could be a valuable addition to an alliance. It's just that they all seem to live off ''stealing'' passengers from national airlines. Making friends with them would do them no good.
..sick of it. -K. Pilkington.
 
mikey72
Posts: 1439
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2009 1:31 pm

RE: Etihad Biggest Single Shareholder In Airberlin

Tue Dec 20, 2011 9:16 am

Oh I've just had a thought. If AB had been bought by BA they could have changed their name to ABBA !!

They could have had a dancing 'queen' featuring as part of their new livery.

hee hee

[Edited 2011-12-20 01:17:13]
Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
 
Viscount724
Posts: 18831
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: Etihad Biggest Single Shareholder In Airberlin

Tue Dec 20, 2011 11:32 am

Quoting cmf (Reply 26):
Quoting something (Reply 15):You join an alliance to open your domestic network to international carriers and vice versa.
The how did SQ, KL and EI manage to join alliances? And there are others with no or essentially no domestic network.

Virtually all carriers in alliances were interlining with all the other carriers in the same alliance before they joined the alliance. They didn't have to join an alliance to do that. They've been doing that for decades.
 
Burkhard
Posts: 1916
Joined: Fri Nov 17, 2006 9:34 pm

RE: Etihad Biggest Single Shareholder In Airberlin

Tue Dec 20, 2011 11:52 am

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 29):
They could have had a dancing 'queen' featuring as part of their new livery.

The license for this would cost far more than AB shares currently are worth. As Air Berlin, they beter utilize "Preussens Gloria", since it is free they can afford it and Berliners will identify with it.

This said, I searched for an read the "Luftverkehrsabkommen", but did not find the magic number 4 in it at all, anybody has a reliable source of this number?
 
r2rho
Posts: 2439
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 10:13 pm

RE: Etihad Biggest Single Shareholder In Airberlin

Tue Dec 20, 2011 1:42 pm

I definitely didn't see this one coming, nobody did. But we're just a-netters. The real question is: did IAG see this one coming? Because what most were expecting is that, with the restructuring going on at AB and the likely search for a strategic investment partner, OW partner IAG would step in, but never EY. It's a good move for AB's independence and sustainability, but I wonder how this plays out for Oneworld? Anyway good news, EY gains European feed, and AB gets great long-haul access towards the East. Complemetary routes with no overlap.

Seems like the Gulf carriers are taking advantage of the struggling EU airlines to gain a foothold on the continent, see also QR's (still unconfirmed) investment in JK

QR Buys 49% Stake In Spanair (by SQ773 Dec 14 2011 in Civil Aviation)
 
cmf
Posts: 3120
Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2011 11:22 pm

RE: Etihad Biggest Single Shareholder In Airberlin

Tue Dec 20, 2011 2:46 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 30):
Virtually all carriers in alliances were interlining with all the other carriers in the same alliance before they joined the alliance. They didn't have to join an alliance to do that. They've been doing that for decades.

So not because of domestic networks. Which, apparently, is why they join alliances  
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
mikey72
Posts: 1439
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2009 1:31 pm

RE: Etihad Biggest Single Shareholder In Airberlin

Tue Dec 20, 2011 4:02 pm

Quoting r2rho (Reply 32):
It's a good move for AB's independence and sustainability, but I wonder how this plays out for Oneworld?

It's fair to assume that by the time BA get their first A380... Air Berlin, Etihad, Kingfisher and Latam will be members of Oneworld.

I think I better put in a....   
Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Crew
Posts: 11734
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

RE: Etihad Biggest Single Shareholder In Airberlin

Tue Dec 20, 2011 4:28 pm

Quoting something (Reply 28):
I'm not a tech expert, but QR flies A319/A320 on these routes on the regular so I would assume the 738 should be able to do the same?

The QR A319s are ACJs. In other words, they are equiped with belly tanks to give them much longer range. The 738 should have ~400nm more range than the A320 on those routes. But the A319 ACJs should have a few hundred nm range on the 738 (Note, I'm rounding on the A319 ACJ range as I do not know the weight of the QR fittings nor MTOW ordered nor engine thrust specified (one would assume 27k, but I do not know) nor...)

The routes we are discussing would be severely payload restricted in winter on a 738. No issue on an A319 ACJ and in my opinion the A320 should be redeployed during the winter headwinds to other routes.

The 738MAX and A320NEO will both change that calculation. Both would have excellent winter range with nice belly cargo capability. IMHO, the A319NEO would be a waste of resourse. The A321NEO should do well too. The 738MAX will have less range (w/payload) than the 738NG, so I wouldn't consider it for these routes. The 737-700NG would have no issue (FWIW).

Quoting r2rho (Reply 32):
I wonder how this plays out for Oneworld?

I think we'll have years of lively debate on that.  
Quoting mikey72 (Reply 29):
Oh I've just had a thought. If AB had been bought by BA they could have changed their name to ABBA !!

They could have had a dancing 'queen' featuring as part of their new livery.

   Good one!

Quoting r2rho (Reply 32):
Anyway good news, EY gains European feed, and AB gets great long-haul access towards the East. Complemetary routes with no overlap.

   The alliances will have overlap, but I just do not see EY and QR able to stay out of an alliance long term. However, as noted before, there could be a 'new alliance' formed. (Say EY with the Virgin airlines and a half dozen others.)

Lightsaber
"They did not know it was impossible, so they did it!" - Mark Twain
 
nomorerjs
Posts: 581
Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2004 10:24 am

RE: Etihad Biggest Single Shareholder In Airberlin

Wed Dec 21, 2011 1:15 am

ORD-BBI may actually happen! Probably not on AA metal though.
 
User avatar
ADent
Posts: 919
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2006 12:11 pm

RE: Etihad Biggest Single Shareholder In Airberlin

Wed Dec 21, 2011 3:06 am

So how many cities from Germany can Air Berlin fly to AUH?
 
User avatar
shamrock604
Posts: 2085
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2007 11:27 pm

RE: Etihad Biggest Single Shareholder In Airberlin

Wed Dec 21, 2011 4:35 am

Apparently, EY has also confirmed it is still interested in a stake in Aer Lingus also!
 
Burkhard
Posts: 1916
Joined: Fri Nov 17, 2006 9:34 pm

RE: Etihad Biggest Single Shareholder In Airberlin

Wed Dec 21, 2011 9:59 am

Quoting ADent (Reply 37):
So how many cities from Germany can Air Berlin fly to AUH?

That is why I asked if anybody knows the exact text. I found http://www.bgbl.de/Xaver/text.xav?bk...'bgbl296s1126.pdf'%5D&wc=1&skin=WC

But do not find the number 4 in there. What is clear is that the number of passengers German airlines or UAE airlines transport with connecting flights to third countries may not be bigger than the traffic between the two countries. Is that the reason for many luxury hotels offering one or two nights with very cheap flights, to generate artifical PAX numbers between the countries to be allowed to offer more connecting tickets?
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Crew
Posts: 11734
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

RE: Etihad Biggest Single Shareholder In Airberlin

Wed Dec 21, 2011 3:52 pm

Quoting shamrock604 (Reply 38):
Apparently, EY has also confirmed it is still interested in a stake in Aer Lingus also!

The EY alliance!  
Quoting Burkhard (Reply 39):
that the reason for many luxury hotels offering one or two nights with very cheap flights, to generate artifical PAX numbers between the countries to be allowed to offer more connecting tickets?

Probably. It also would explain the growth rate of EK in Germany...

Lightsaber
"They did not know it was impossible, so they did it!" - Mark Twain
 
something
Posts: 1239
Joined: Fri May 13, 2011 5:29 pm

RE: Etihad Biggest Single Shareholder In Airberlin

Wed Dec 21, 2011 4:42 pm

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 39):
That is why I asked if anybody knows the exact text.

Burkhard, while I can't provide you with the exact legal paragraph*, you can find more information in the following two links. Airliners.de is a rather reliable source.

http://www.airliners.de/verkehr/netz...nimmt-duesseldorf-fluege-auf/25971
http://www.airliners.de/management/s...d-steigt-bei-air-berlin-ein-/25975

* I once tried finding the reason why German airplanes carry their registration under the wings and even after days of thorough research, couldn't find any hint whatsoever.

Quoting r2rho (Reply 32):
Seems like the Gulf carriers are taking advantage of the struggling EU airlines to gain a foothold on the continent, see also QR's (still unconfirmed) investment in JK

Not so much of the struggling airlines, but more of the ailing European banking sector. Raising capital is extremely difficult these days, so you have to go where the money is. AUH, is where the money is.

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 34):
It's fair to assume that by the time BA get their first A380... Air Berlin, Etihad, Kingfisher and Latam will be members of Oneworld.

Maybe I am overlooking something here, but AB is already admitted to and Kingfisher joined OneWorld the other day.
..sick of it. -K. Pilkington.
 
SQ325
Posts: 1274
Joined: Wed Jul 18, 2001 7:54 pm

RE: Etihad Biggest Single Shareholder In Airberlin

Wed Dec 21, 2011 5:23 pm

Quoting ADent (Reply 37):
So how many cities from Germany can Air Berlin fly to AUH?

The question is how many people are willing to fly to AUH in an AB 737 when they also can choose to use EY or fly via DXB or DOH and use an airline with an adequate business product.

The next question is how long will EY watch AB burning money and they are pretty far away from being profitable.
what weasures will be taken to make them profitable
 
User avatar
Aquila3
Posts: 496
Joined: Sun Nov 14, 2010 3:18 pm

RE: Etihad Biggest Single Shareholder In Airberlin

Wed Dec 21, 2011 6:17 pm

Quoting SQ325 (Reply 42):
The question is how many people are willing to fly to AUH in an AB 737 when they also can choose to use EY or fly via DXB or DOH and use an airline with an adequate business product.


Well, that might be true for the business product. But I think that the average German holiday traveller would rather consider the AB service compared to some Middle Eastern "cattle car" Y .
chi vola vale chi vale vola chi non vola è un vile
 
User avatar
ADent
Posts: 919
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2006 12:11 pm

RE: Etihad Biggest Single Shareholder In Airberlin

Wed Dec 21, 2011 7:06 pm

Quoting SQ325 (Reply 42):
The question is how many people are willing to fly to AUH in an AB 737 when they also can choose to use EY or fly via DXB or DOH and use an airline with an adequate business product.

I was wondering on the AB traffic rights, because EY could just invest in AB to get some widebodies to run the route. Esp if AB was not limited like EY. AB could just end up as a legally German arm of EY running 20 flights a day between Germany and UAE. But it sounds like AB has similar limits (even if we can't find them).
 
SQ325
Posts: 1274
Joined: Wed Jul 18, 2001 7:54 pm

RE: Etihad Biggest Single Shareholder In Airberlin

Wed Dec 21, 2011 7:32 pm

From my understanding EY is just giving some 200mio credit plus their new stock values which is not enough to even cover 1/3 of ABs debt. So I don' t see where more widebodys could come from. I see AB more as a feeder for EY actual german routes as i see AB as a feeder to AUH!
I wonder if EY will maybe shift their FRA flight to some airport with a stronger AB presence because AB never really got a foot into FRA. Maybe they move to Berlin.
 
dazeflight
Posts: 481
Joined: Tue Jun 22, 1999 1:32 am

RE: Etihad Biggest Single Shareholder In Airberlin

Wed Dec 21, 2011 9:40 pm

^ EY can't move to BER, that's the point to the agreement. Widebodies in the form of 787 jets are still ordered by AB (the press conference stated they would be maintained by EY) and a few direct Asian (and posisbly African) destinations are rumored to get axed which would free a few A330s, depending on the amount of cancellations.
 
BMIFlyer
Posts: 8065
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2004 7:11 am

RE: Etihad Biggest Single Shareholder In Airberlin

Tue Dec 27, 2011 7:37 am

Etihad have today released a rather nice video about the tie up  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evsb5ztDRtA
Sometimes You Can't Make It On Your Own
 
Burkhard
Posts: 1916
Joined: Fri Nov 17, 2006 9:34 pm

RE: Etihad Biggest Single Shareholder In Airberlin

Tue Dec 27, 2011 8:00 am

Thanks for sharing that - very interesting they notice, interpreting the pictures, that Air Berlin is about BER and PMI...