doulasc
Topic Author
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National Airlines(Sun King) Toward The End

Mon Dec 19, 2011 11:50 pm

In the late 1970s I noticed National really cut back. They dropped service to Boston,Philadelphia,Baltimore which were never really focus cities for National but more of a add on city,Their focus I think was New York City,Washington National to Florida,who could forget the milk runs that stopped in Norfolk,Charleston SC,Savanah GA before Florida. They really cut back there too.You didn't see as much intra Florida flights,Panama City Fl and Tallahassee got dropped. William Seawell thought buying National would be a watershed for Pan Am and turned out to be not so. If Pan Am did not buy National it would have ended up with Frank Lorenzo. I feel it just isn't South Florida without National,Eastern and Pan Am
 
rjm777ual
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RE: National Airlines(Sun King) Toward The End

Tue Dec 20, 2011 12:06 am

National airlines, along with PAN AM, is nearing it's LONG end. I'm gonna miss those brightly blue and silver 744F's and DC-8's.
Greetings from Dulles!
 
BoeingGuy
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RE: National Airlines(Sun King) Toward The End

Tue Dec 20, 2011 12:17 am

Quoting rjm777ual (Reply 1):
National airlines, along with PAN AM, is nearing it's LONG end. I'm gonna miss those brightly blue and silver 744F's and DC-8's.

Not sure I understand your comments. The National Airlines that the OP is referring to has been gone for 31 years. And they sure didn't have 744Fs or blue and silver paint.
 
rjm777ual
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RE: National Airlines(Sun King) Toward The End

Tue Dec 20, 2011 12:19 am

Greetings from Dulles!
 
BoeingGuy
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RE: National Airlines(Sun King) Toward The End

Tue Dec 20, 2011 12:28 am

Quoting rjm777ual (Reply 3):
Oh i was thinking of the cargo airline!

And there was also the 757 operator out of LAS. But those aren't the REAL NA that the OP is referring to.

Think, "Fly me, I'm Barbara" (or something like that) or references to sun as he mentions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Airlines_(NA)
 
rjm777ual
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RE: National Airlines(Sun King) Toward The End

Tue Dec 20, 2011 12:33 am

Oh i recognize that logo now! Thanks for the link.
Greetings from Dulles!
 
N62NA
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RE: National Airlines(Sun King) Toward The End

Tue Dec 20, 2011 1:57 am

My favorite airline of all time!


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727LOVER
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RE: National Airlines(Sun King) Toward The End

Tue Dec 20, 2011 2:28 am

Quoting doulasc (Thread starter):

but they also added MIA-SJU, JFK-AMS, LAX-SEA, IAH-SEA......
Love Trumps Hate
 
doulasc
Topic Author
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RE: National Airlines(Sun King) Toward The End

Tue Dec 20, 2011 2:40 am

Thank you 727 Lover, I needed to mention they were focusing on longer routes such as what you mentioned,
Also their expansion to Europe from Florida like MIA-LHR,ORY(or was it CDG),FRA,AMS,ZRH, I am surprised they
did not try to get MAD.
 
PI767
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RE: National Airlines(Sun King) Toward The End

Tue Dec 20, 2011 3:00 am

Quoting doulasc (Thread starter):
In the late 1970s I noticed National really cut back. They dropped service to Boston,Philadelphia,Baltimore which were never really focus cities for National but more of a add on city,Their focus I think was New York City,Washington National to Florida,who could forget the milk runs that stopped in Norfolk,Charleston SC,Savanah GA before Florida. They really cut back there too.You didn't see as much intra Florida flights,Panama City Fl and Tallahassee got dropped.

The question I pose, and I honestly do not know the answer is this:

In the latter years of National, many cities and routes were dropped prior to the Pan Am merger in 1980. This was just after the passage of the airline deregulation act in 1978. I wonder how many of those cities/routes National was not permitted to drop under the regulated airline system. So many were dropped in the last year or so, it seems as though the airline may have been taking advantage of no longer being required to have CAB approval to drop cities/routes.

I don't know...just a thought.
"Piedmont. The Model of What a Good Airline Should Be."
 
N62NA
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RE: National Airlines(Sun King) Toward The End

Tue Dec 20, 2011 3:06 am

Quoting PI767 (Reply 9):
In the latter years of National, many cities and routes were dropped prior to the Pan Am merger in 1980. This was just after the passage of the airline deregulation act in 1978. I wonder how many of those cities/routes National was not permitted to drop under the regulated airline system. So many were dropped in the last year or so, it seems as though the airline may have been taking advantage of no longer being required to have CAB approval to drop cities/routes.

Probably true.
 
lat41
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RE: National Airlines(Sun King) Toward The End

Tue Dec 20, 2011 3:14 am

Long strikes and unreliable service marked the last few years even under regulation. They used to serve Providence but dropped that city as well toward the end. They chaced business away.
 
PI767
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RE: National Airlines(Sun King) Toward The End

Tue Dec 20, 2011 3:31 am

Quoting lat41 (Reply 11):
They used to serve Providence but dropped that city as well toward the end.

It's funny you should mention National's service to Providence. I remember finding this in their September 1, 1977 timetable:

There was ONE daily flight to/from Providence.

The inbound flight was flight 60:

Depart LaGuardia: 7:00am
Arrive Providence: 7:42am

The outbound flight was flight 61:

Depart Providence: 8:10am
Arrive Kennedy: 8:54am
Depart Kennedy: 9:30am
Arrive Orlando: 11:50am
Depart Orlando: 12:15pm
Arrive Sarasota: 12:44pm

Not ONLY did the ONE flight in arrive from a different airport than the ONE flight out, but the ONE flight in also left too early for any connections.

So, basically, the ONLY place you could fly TO Providence from was LaGuardia. Outbound, you could fly to Kennedy and make connections to the rest of the National system.

One of the most bizarre things I can remember seeing in an airline timetable.

[Edited 2011-12-19 19:41:46]
"Piedmont. The Model of What a Good Airline Should Be."
 
PI767
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RE: National Airlines(Sun King) Toward The End

Tue Dec 20, 2011 3:37 am

One other comment about National's timetables: I HATED their route map! They clumped a bunch of cities together as one "dot" on the map:

http://www.departedflights.com/NA050179.html

Charleston and Savannah.... shown as one dot on the map.

Mobile and Pensacola...shown as one dot.

Miami, Fort Lauderdale and West Palm Beach...one dot.

Tampa, Sarasota and Fort Myers...one dot.

On earlier maps: Providence/Boston as one dot, Jacksonville and Daytona Beach were one dot, Mobile/Pensacola/Tallahassee/Pensacola....all ONE DOT!

Drove my crazy!

(Okay....rant over...lol)
"Piedmont. The Model of What a Good Airline Should Be."
 
lat41
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RE: National Airlines(Sun King) Toward The End

Tue Dec 20, 2011 3:37 am

Quoting PI767 (Reply 12):
There was ONE daily flight to/from Providence.

That might have been after one of their strikes, when the amount of flights and the overal route system was already shrinking.
NA used to operate at least 3 per day. 2 LGAs and one JFK as I recall. I took a one stop through flight PVD LGA MIA a couple times in the 70's. I would deliberately not come back that route as I wanted to fly NA #98, a 747 MIA JFK and connect on to PVD in the evening.
 
PI767
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RE: National Airlines(Sun King) Toward The End

Tue Dec 20, 2011 3:41 am

Quoting lat41 (Reply 14):
I would deliberately not come back that route as I wanted to fly NA #98, a 747 MIA JFK and connect on to PVD in the evening.

Spoken like a true airline enthusiast.  
"Piedmont. The Model of What a Good Airline Should Be."
 
doulasc
Topic Author
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RE: National Airlines(Sun King) Toward The End

Tue Dec 20, 2011 3:41 am

speaking of bizarre I remember in the late 1970s there was one flight that passed through PHL but not vice versa.I saw a lot of that with National in the end.It's a mystery to me.
 
PI767
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RE: National Airlines(Sun King) Toward The End

Tue Dec 20, 2011 3:47 am

Another odd one from 1977.... I can only assume this must have been some sort of repositioning flight for a charter or something:

The lone flight out of Atlanta:

From Atlanta to San Francisco:

Flight 201
Depart Atlanta 11:30pm
Arrive San Francisco 1:12am
Boeing 727
FriSatOnly

From San Francisco to Atlanta:

Flight 202
Depart San Francisco 9:15pm
Arrive Atlanta 4:30am
Boeing 727
FriSatOnly

Anyone have any knowledge or speculation as to what that was all about?

[Edited 2011-12-19 19:48:34]
"Piedmont. The Model of What a Good Airline Should Be."
 
ridgid727
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RE: National Airlines(Sun King) Toward The End

Tue Dec 20, 2011 3:48 am

I remember as a child in about 1974 flying on their DC10's from SAN-LAX. Flew on "Tammy" like 5 times.
 
maxpower1954
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RE: National Airlines(Sun King) Toward The End

Tue Dec 20, 2011 4:02 am

Quoting PI767 (Reply 17):
Another odd one from 1977.... I can only assume this must have been some sort of repositioning flight for a charter or something:

The lone flight out of Atlanta:

From Atlanta to San Francisco:

Flight 201
Depart Atlanta 11:30pm
Arrive San Francisco 1:12am
Boeing 727
FriSatOnly

From San Francisco to Atlanta:

Flight 202
Depart San Francisco 9:15pm
Arrive Atlanta 4:30am
Boeing 727
FriSatOnly

Anyone have any knowledge or speculation as to what that was all about?

In 1969 the CAB awarded National SFO-ATL to give Delta competition, who had flown that route as the sole carrier since 1961. Initially operated daily with DC-8s, it was a dismal failure because of National's total lack of feed in and out of ATL. By 1978 it was gone.

1974 system map showing SFO-ATL

http://www.departedflights.com/NA070174.html
 
PI767
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RE: National Airlines(Sun King) Toward The End

Tue Dec 20, 2011 4:05 am

Quoting maxpower1954 (Reply 19):
In 1969 the CAB awarded National SFO-ATL to give Delta competition, who had flown that route as the sole carrier since 1961. Initially operated daily with DC-8s, it was a dismal failure because of National's total lack of feed in and out of ATL. By 1978 it was gone.

Very interesting! Thanks for the information!
"Piedmont. The Model of What a Good Airline Should Be."
 
lat41
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RE: National Airlines(Sun King) Toward The End

Tue Dec 20, 2011 4:08 am

Check out "The Anatomy of an Airline" It was a hard cover book which chronicaled National Airlines from 1934 when the carrier was born until 1970, when the the book was written. Author was Brad Williams.
 
maxpower1954
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RE: National Airlines(Sun King) Toward The End

Tue Dec 20, 2011 4:13 am

National wasn't cutting back flights at all in the late 1970s - they were finally able to unload some of the mutli-stop intercity service they had flown for decades. I lived in Miami then and they were hiring pilots, flight attendants for an overall increase in non-stop service.

More than any other major airline, National flew the shortest legs you can imagine in a 727. I flew from FMY to JAX in 1974 in a 727-200 stopping in SRQ, TPA, MCO and DAB! Another local service was JAX-TLH-PNS-MOB-MSY-IAH. Or how about PHL-DCA-PHF-ORF-CHS-SAV-JAX-PBI-MIA!

National route map, 1958

http://www.timetableimages.com/ttimages/complete/na58/na58-1.jpg

National route map, 1962

http://www.timetableimages.com/ttimages/complete/na62/na62-2.jpg

National route map, last schedule before PAA merger, 1979

http://www.departedflights.com/NA050179.html
 
maxpower1954
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RE: National Airlines(Sun King) Toward The End

Tue Dec 20, 2011 4:23 am

Quoting lat41 (Reply 21):
Check out "The Anatomy of an Airline" It was a hard cover book which chronicaled National Airlines from 1934 when the carrier was born until 1970, when the the book was written. Author was Brad Williams.

Funny, I was just re-reading this book when this thread came up! One of my favorite airline history books, reads like Robert Serling's works.

National facts: Only U.S. major airline that never flew the DC-3. They had Lockheed Lodestars (1940 to 1959).

1958 - First airline to fly jets on U.S. domestic service (IDL-MIA). Boeing 707s dry-leased from Pan Am (National flight crews and cabin attendants).

1970 - Third U.S. airline to operate Trans-Atlantic services (MIA-LHR) with DC-8-54s.
 
swabrian
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RE: National Airlines(Sun King) Toward The End

Tue Dec 20, 2011 2:58 pm

Quoting maxpower1954 (Reply 19):

In 1969 the CAB awarded National SFO-ATL to give Delta competition, who had flown that route as the sole carrier since 1961. Initially operated daily with DC-8s, it was a dismal failure because of National's total lack of feed in and out of ATL. By 1978 it was gone.

1974 system map showing SFO-ATL

http://www.departedflights.com/NA070....html

Likewise, the CAB gave DL a SFO-MIA/FLL nonstop flight to compete with NA. DL operated this flight on Fridays only with a DC-8-51. In 1977/78 while I was working in OAK for DL, the flight would originate in OAK, fly across the Bay to SFO, and then nonstop to MIA before terminating in FLL.
 
WA707atMSP
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RE: National Airlines(Sun King) Toward The End

Tue Dec 20, 2011 3:27 pm

Quoting swabrian (Reply 24):
Quoting maxpower1954 (Reply 19):

In 1969 the CAB awarded National SFO-ATL to give Delta competition, who had flown that route as the sole carrier since 1961. Initially operated daily with DC-8s, it was a dismal failure because of National's total lack of feed in and out of ATL. By 1978 it was gone.

1974 system map showing SFO-ATL

http://www.departedflights.com/NA070....html

Likewise, the CAB gave DL a SFO-MIA/FLL nonstop flight to compete with NA. DL operated this flight on Fridays only with a DC-8-51. In 1977/78 while I was working in OAK for DL, the flight would originate in OAK, fly across the Bay to SFO, and then nonstop to MIA before terminating in FLL.

Both of these route awards were part of the infamous 1960's "Southern Transcontinental" route case, which had some of the more nonsensical awards ever given out by the CAB.

Other routes awarded in this case were MIA-LAX (awarded to NE, probably should have gone to EA), SFO-Houston (awarded to AA, probably should have gone to EA or BN), LAX-DAL (awarded to CO, should have gone to BN), DAL-LAS (awarded to Frontier, should have gone to AA. AA and Frontier agreed to swap Frontier's DAL-LAS authority for AA's SAN-PHX/TUS, but the CAB refused to allow the transfer, and the route was subsequently given to TT and BN) and Houston-Miami, which was awarded to DL. CO appealed the decision, the courts agreed with CO, and the route was taken from DL and given to CO in 1976.

The only route awards in this case that made sense were ATL-LAX, which went to EA, DAL-PHX, which went to DL, and DAL-MSY-TPA-MIA, which went to BN.
Seaholm Maples are #1!
 
JFKPurser
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RE: National Airlines(Sun King) Toward The End

Tue Dec 20, 2011 4:26 pm

I flew "Christine", a DC-8-61 LAX-MSY-TPA in 1973. I remember may different Y class compartments throughout, and each one had a club arrangement at the front bulkhead on both sides with rearward-facing seats and a table in the middle.
 
BoeingGuy
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RE: National Airlines(Sun King) Toward The End

Tue Dec 20, 2011 4:40 pm

Quoting maxpower1954 (Reply 19):
n 1969 the CAB awarded National SFO-ATL to give Delta competition, who had flown that route as the sole carrier since 1961.

That was always an odd-ball route and looked funny on NA's route map, since it was the only place they served ATL from as mentioned previously.

IIRC, NA had a hub in IAH near the end, long before CO ever did (back when CO's hub was in DEN).

Believe it or not, NA flew into SJC for awhile with an IAH-SJC routing on a "Sun King" painted 727-200.
 
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drerx7
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RE: National Airlines(Sun King) Toward The End

Tue Dec 20, 2011 4:51 pm

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 27):
IIRC, NA had a hub in IAH near the end, long before CO ever did (back when CO's hub was in DEN).

Yep, Pan Am acquired them and operated the mini hub at IAH for a little while. Around the same time span Eastern ran the moonlight hub with AB3s out of IAH. All this was before my time though. After the early 80s there was virtually no more domestic widebody service ever again - with the exception of a few CO flights through the mid 90s until now. The only other domestic widebody operator at IAH was Sun Country on IAH-LAS runs in the mid 90s.
Third Coast born, means I'm Texas raised
 
milesrich
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RE: National Airlines(Sun King) Toward The End

Tue Dec 20, 2011 5:04 pm

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 25):
Both of these route awards were part of the infamous 1960's "Southern Transcontinental" route case, which had some of the more nonsensical awards ever given out by the CAB.

WA707, I hate to correct you, if you are referring to NA's SFO-ATL and DL's SFO-MIA routes. Neither was part of the Southern Trancontinental Route Case, but rather were awarded ten years later to compete with routes ORIGINALLY awarded in the famous Southern Transcontinental Route case. As I am sure you are aware, prior to 1961, there was no single carrier service between the Southeastern US and California. It was at that time, that National was awarded routes to LAX-LAS-SAN-SFO from HOU, MSY, and the Florida Cities, and Delta was awarded routes routes to to same cities plus PHX from DAL and ATL, ending the interchanges with American. Contiental was also part of an interchange providing service from HOU to ELP as I remember.

The original award resulted in lots of law suits, including those by the City of Houston, Braniff, and Eastern against the CAB. As a result of the litigation, nine or ten years later, the CAB awarded the additional routes you speak of. In the original award, Braniff was frozen out, and Eastern was only awarded a route from TPA-MIA to DAL-GSW(ACF).

Here are some links to the litigation.

http://bulk.resource.org/courts.gov/c/F2/379/379.F2d.453.20160.html

http://law.justia.com/cases/federal/...ppellate-courts/F2/317/158/391099/

Eastern was later awarded a route from Florida and ATL via STL to SEA-PDX.

http://174.123.24.242/leagle/xmlResu...cbase=CSLWAR1-1950-1985&SizeDisp=7

This last link is the most interesting as it involves Delta as a Plaintiff and discusses the STL service to Florida as well and was filed before the 1961 route awards.
 
WA707atMSP
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RE: National Airlines(Sun King) Toward The End

Tue Dec 20, 2011 5:25 pm

Quoting milesrich (Reply 29):
Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 25):
Both of these route awards were part of the infamous 1960's "Southern Transcontinental" route case, which had some of the more nonsensical awards ever given out by the CAB.

WA707, I hate to correct you, if you are referring to NA's SFO-ATL and DL's SFO-MIA routes. Neither was part of the Southern Trancontinental Route Case, but rather were awarded ten years later to compete with routes ORIGINALLY awarded in the famous Southern Transcontinental Route case.


Miles, you are 100% right, and I'm glad you corrected me.

I believe the official name of the route case that was resolved in 1969 was the "reopened Southern Transcontinental Route Case". I will verify the name of the case when I get home from work.

I should have indicated in my original posting that the route awards I was referring to were a part of the 1969 route case (which was, as I indicated in my earlier post, a cluster****), rather than the 1961 route case, which was one of the CAB's better cases.
Seaholm Maples are #1!
 
hiflyer
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RE: National Airlines(Sun King) Toward The End

Tue Dec 20, 2011 5:32 pm

With NA from 74 till PanAm....DCA and SFO...being able to shed some smaller cities allowed longer stage length flights and as a result NA took on used 721's from NW in return for the two 741's. The IAH minihub was growing...at some expense to MSY and other gulf coast cities.

As far as those milk run flights...there was one that ran from New England thru just about every city to north florida...turned west...and hit them all till ending up in SFO....do not think any employee succeeded at the challenge of one drink before every landing and stayed awake the whole trip...grin!

Remember the bag of oranges if you guessed the correct time on the abeam game? How about movie and popcorn (cleaners could never get all the popcorn out). Coming back off strike it was free drinks and steak in coach. Center seats on the 727's folded down and became a tray table. Match books with your name engraved on them going to Europe first class. The triangle fare...NYC to West coast round trip and add in 5 bucks and get MIA stopover one one leg (rumor something similar was being thought about for NYC TLV just before PanAm took over...MIATLV was supposedly a range issue even with the DC10-30's). Free bottle of champagne for newlyweds.
 
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N14AZ
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RE: National Airlines(Sun King) Toward The End

Tue Dec 20, 2011 8:12 pm

Thanks for starting this thread - brings back good memories since NA sent a lot of rare birds to FRA. I saw many NA-747-pictures in the past but recently I saw a picture of N358AS in yellow cls., very similiar
to the long storage primer Airbus is using. Please have a look here, middle of the page (sorry, writing these lines from my iPhone and cannot link the picture itself):
http://fraaviation.forumsfree.de/t1446p90-747-in-fra

Does anybody know the background for this paint scheme? (hope this is not too Off-topic)
 
N62NA
Posts: 4010
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RE: National Airlines(Sun King) Toward The End

Tue Dec 20, 2011 9:04 pm

Quoting N14AZ (Reply 32):
Thanks for starting this thread - brings back good memories since NA sent a lot of rare birds to FRA. I saw many NA-747-pictures in the past but recently I saw a picture of N358AS in yellow cls., very similiar
to the long storage primer Airbus is using. Please have a look here, middle of the page (sorry, writing these lines from my iPhone and cannot link the picture itself):
http://fraaviation.forumsfree.de/t1446p90-747-in-fra

Does anybody know the background for this paint scheme? (hope this is not too Off-topic)

That was not the National Airlines company that is what this topic is discussing. I guess there have been several airlines over the years that used the name "National Airlines."
 
jetstar
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RE: National Airlines(Sun King) Toward The End

Tue Dec 20, 2011 9:43 pm

Quoting maxpower1954 (Reply 23):

1958 - First airline to fly jets on U.S. domestic service (IDL-MIA). Boeing 707s dry-leased from Pan Am (National flight crews and cabin attendants).

I believe that was Northeast Airlines, not National Airlines, Northeast Airlines was bought by Delta which allowed Delta to become a major player in the Northeast to Florida market, previously they operated mainly in the Southeast.

JetStar
 
BoeingGuy
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RE: National Airlines(Sun King) Toward The End

Tue Dec 20, 2011 9:55 pm

Quoting jetstar (Reply 34):
Quoting maxpower1954 (Reply 23):

1958 - First airline to fly jets on U.S. domestic service (IDL-MIA). Boeing 707s dry-leased from Pan Am (National flight crews and cabin attendants).

I believe that was Northeast Airlines, not National Airlines, Northeast Airlines was bought by Delta which allowed Delta to become a major player in the Northeast to Florida market, previously they operated mainly in the Southeast.

No, he was correct. That was National Airlines that leased the Pan Am 707 to be the first domestic jet service in the US.

You might be mistaking that for Northeast Airlines being an early operator of Convair 880s?
 
hiflyer
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RE: National Airlines(Sun King) Toward The End

Tue Dec 20, 2011 10:00 pm

Quoting jetstar (Reply 34):
I believe that was Northeast Airlines, not National Airlines,

was NA with the original 707-121's first batch to Pan Am. DL took NE later...after the introduction of the 727-200 and L1011. I remember the GOP presidential convention in MIA and NE had rented large houseboat in the intercoastal to use for meet/greet...renamed it YellowBird1 and put a highspeed boat tied up to it called YellowBird2.
 
Viscount724
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RE: National Airlines(Sun King) Toward The End

Tue Dec 20, 2011 10:10 pm

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 35):
Quoting jetstar (Reply 34):
Quoting maxpower1954 (Reply 23):

1958 - First airline to fly jets on U.S. domestic service (IDL-MIA). Boeing 707s dry-leased from Pan Am (National flight crews and cabin attendants).

I believe that was Northeast Airlines, not National Airlines, Northeast Airlines was bought by Delta which allowed Delta to become a major player in the Northeast to Florida market, previously they operated mainly in the Southeast.

No, he was correct. That was National Airlines that leased the Pan Am 707 to be the first domestic jet service in the US.

Following from National's October 26, 1958 timetable:

http://timetableimages.com/i-mn/na5810i.jpg
 
ozark1
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RE: National Airlines(Sun King) Toward The End

Tue Dec 20, 2011 10:43 pm

I was enamored with National Airlines when I was a kid. I used to draw the Sun King logo over and over instead of listening to the teacher. (this was in ELP--nowhere NEAR National country). I finally got to fly them from DCA to BWI in the early 70's. Yeah, that's right--it was like a 10 minute flight. I really liked their livery better when it was the bare metal lower side and painted upper side. Not sure why they started painting them all white nearer to the end. My best friend used to fly for AA and he always remembered a woman on one of his flights who was unhappy about something. She just shouted "National! Take Me, I'm Yours!" right in the aisle. They had some good slogans. "National Goes Where The Nation Grows", "Is This Any Way To Run An Airline? You Bet It Is!" But they were like Northwest Orient, always on strike it seemed!
 
doulasc
Topic Author
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RE: National Airlines(Sun King) Toward The End

Wed Dec 21, 2011 1:41 am

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 35):

I think Northeast leased a TWA 707 for its first jet service in 1959 from New York to Florida.
 
Type-Rated
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RE: National Airlines(Sun King) Toward The End

Wed Dec 21, 2011 7:01 am

I always wanted to try National but never had the chance. What was their typical onboard service like in the mid to late 70's?
Fly North Central Airlines..The route of the Northliners!
 
maxpower1954
Posts: 1044
Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 1:14 am

RE: National Airlines(Sun King) Toward The End

Wed Dec 21, 2011 7:30 am

Quoting doulasc (Reply 39):
I think Northeast leased a TWA 707 for its first jet service in 1959 from New York to Florida.

Yes, and Airways magazine ran a series of articles recently on the history of Northeast which discussed the 707 operation in detail. It was similar to National's; the 707 would fly a round trip IDL-MIA after arriving from SFO on TWA service. It was flown by NE pilots and cabin crew. I never knew of this before the Airways article. It's a great magazine, and every airline nut should read it!
 
milesrich
Posts: 1508
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2003 2:46 am

RE: National Airlines(Sun King) Toward The End

Wed Dec 21, 2011 8:31 am

Also a good story is the unique arrangement between National and Pan Am that is referred to in that ad. George Baker, in order to put one over on Eastern and Eddie Rickenbacker, as well as Juan Trippe, talked Trippe into leasing the 707 to National in exchange for giving Pan Am the right to purchase National stock, knowing full well, the CAB would probably not approve the stock purchase, and wanting to gain a competitive edge on Eastern that had not even introduced Electras yet. Trippe went for the deal, National flew the first domestic 707 service taking much traffic away from Eastern that winter, and then the CAB would not allow the stock purchase. Baker then sold the airline to L.B. Maytag of the appliance manufacturer from Newton, Iowa.
 
WA707atMSP
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RE: National Airlines(Sun King) Toward The End

Wed Dec 21, 2011 2:39 pm

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 30):
Quoting milesrich (Reply 29):
Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 25):
Both of these route awards were part of the infamous 1960's "Southern Transcontinental" route case, which had some of the more nonsensical awards ever given out by the CAB.

WA707, I hate to correct you, if you are referring to NA's SFO-ATL and DL's SFO-MIA routes. Neither was part of the Southern Trancontinental Route Case, but rather were awarded ten years later to compete with routes ORIGINALLY awarded in the famous Southern Transcontinental Route case.


Miles, you are 100% right, and I'm glad you corrected me.

I believe the official name of the route case that was resolved in 1969 was the "reopened Southern Transcontinental Route Case". I will verify the name of the case when I get home from work.

I checked my copy of Eastern's 1968 annual report, and the exact name of the route case resolved in 1969 was the "Southern Tier Investigation". Once again, thanks for the clarification, Miles.
Seaholm Maples are #1!
 
swabrian
Posts: 66
Joined: Thu Nov 01, 2007 3:36 pm

RE: National Airlines(Sun King) Toward The End

Wed Dec 21, 2011 2:46 pm

Quoting milesrich (Reply 42):
Also a good story is the unique arrangement between National and Pan Am that is referred to in that ad. George Baker, in order to put one over on Eastern and Eddie Rickenbacker, as well as Juan Trippe, talked Trippe into leasing the 707 to National in exchange for giving Pan Am the right to purchase National stock, knowing full well, the CAB would probably not approve the stock purchase, and wanting to gain a competitive edge on Eastern that had not even introduced Electras yet. Trippe went for the deal, National flew the first domestic 707 service taking much traffic away from Eastern that winter, and then the CAB would not allow the stock purchase. Baker then sold the airline to L.B. Maytag of the appliance manufacturer from Newton, Iowa.

That was the first of a double whammy for EA during that period. Rickenbacker had early delivery positions lined up on the DC-8 for the -10, but he decided to wait for the more powerful -20. Delta stepped in and picked up the DC8-10s and along with UA introduced the DC-8 on 9/18/59, which gave them a big advantage over EA's Electras and DC-7Bs.
 
N62NA
Posts: 4010
Joined: Sun Aug 10, 2003 1:05 am

RE: National Airlines(Sun King) Toward The End

Wed Dec 21, 2011 4:12 pm

Quoting type-rated (Reply 40):
I always wanted to try National but never had the chance. What was their typical onboard service like in the mid to late 70's?

Well, at that time I was just heading into my teens, but as I recall it was friendly, and the food in coach was good. But then again, during those days, the same could be said for domestic service on Eastern, United, AA, TWA, Northwest, Continental, Piedmont, Allegheny....  
 
milesrich
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Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2003 2:46 am

RE: National Airlines(Sun King) Toward The End

Wed Dec 21, 2011 5:04 pm

Quoting swabrian (Reply 44):
That was the first of a double whammy for EA during that period. Rickenbacker had early delivery positions lined up on the DC-8 for the -10, but he decided to wait for the more powerful -20. Delta stepped in and picked up the DC8-10s and along with UA introduced the DC-8 on 9/18/59, which gave them a big advantage over EA's Electras and DC-7Bs.

Much is made of this, but the only routes that Delta competed with Eastern on at the time that could accommodate or were scheduled with the DC-8 were IDL/PHL/BAL-ATL; ATL-ORD; ATL-MIA; and ORD-TPA/MIA/PBI, and I don't think Delta scheduled DC-8's on all those routes, but combined with NE leasing TW 707's for IDL-South Florida, and NA leasing the PA 707's, Eastern's winter traffic from the Northeast to Florida was seriously hurt and if you remember, with their route structure, they had to "make hay" in the winter because during the summer months when other airlines had their peak traffic, EA had no east-west routes. Had the Electra never suffered whirlmode or the AA accident at LGA and the EA at BOS, both which had different causes (pilot error) and (birds), Eastern would have been very competitive against Delta on the shorter routes with their superior Electra compared to Delta's DC-7's and DC-6's. It was as if all of the stars aligned in opposition to Eastern's success, plus Eastern was handicapped by their generally poor customer service reputation, and Eddie Rickenbacker's leadership.
 
milesrich
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Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2003 2:46 am

RE: National Airlines(Sun King) Toward The End

Wed Dec 21, 2011 5:08 pm

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 43):
I checked my copy of Eastern's 1968 annual report, and the exact name of the route case resolved in 1969 was the "Southern Tier Investigation"

Was it not in this group of awards that United was given MEM & HSV to the West Coast? A route structure they later abandoned when they generally abandoned the South after deregulation, although they started before 1978 by dropping MOB. on the ATL/BHM to MSY routes. They dumped AVL, CHA, ATL and MSY in short order.
 
Type-Rated
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Joined: Sun Sep 19, 1999 5:18 am

RE: National Airlines(Sun King) Toward The End

Wed Dec 21, 2011 7:33 pm

One thing I always thought was strange about National is their route map. It seems like they just stayed with somewhat coastal cities flying mainly around the parameter of the U.S. Was this by design or did it just happen that way? Why didn't they serve such cities as DEN, ORD, PIT, etc?
Fly North Central Airlines..The route of the Northliners!
 
hiflyer
Posts: 1270
Joined: Wed Nov 24, 2004 1:38 am

RE: National Airlines(Sun King) Toward The End

Wed Dec 21, 2011 7:39 pm

Quoting type-rated (Reply 48):
Why didn't they serve such cities as DEN, ORD, PIT, etc?

Until deregulation of routes in the late 70's all domestic routes were controlled and distributed by application to the US Govt.