doulasc
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The History of BOAC At MIA

Tue Dec 20, 2011 2:34 am

When BOAC first started operations to Miami from London they were operating a route
LHR-BDA-NAS-MIA.This is a route that previously operated by Cunard Eagle,Did BOAC
buy Cunard Eagle,I do remember BOAC had a BOAC Cunard in the late 1960s. Then in
1970 BOAC started non stop LHR-MIA with Boeing 707,I wonder if a Vickers VC-10 ever operated
into MIA? When the non stop was intiated was the two stop route dropped? Then when did BOAC
start Boeing 747 service to MIA.
 
Jackbr
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The History of BOAC At MIA

Tue Dec 20, 2011 3:27 am

I know in the 1971/72ish time period, BOAC was using 707-336Bs and Cs into MIA
 
usafdo
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The History of BOAC At MIA

Tue Dec 20, 2011 4:13 am

As a kid, I used to be able to see the departures from my front yard!

The 707 was the common aircraft. Everyonce in a while...not often...I would see a VC-10.

I remember it being real loud!...
 
carduelis
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The History of BOAC At MIA

Tue Dec 20, 2011 4:23 am

Don't know the whole story, but I was BOAC Cabin Crew on 707s from 1962 to 1966.

The whole thing was instigated by Cunard who were losing out on transatlantic travel due to the advent of jets in the late 50s.

See Wikipedia under Harold Bamberg, and also under Cunard Queens

Incidentally the two 707/465s of Cunard were: G-ARWD, previously VR-BBW, and GARWE, previously VR-BBZ

Whisky Echo burned out at Heathrow in April 1968
Per Ardua ad Astra! ........ Honi Soit Qui Mal y Pense!
 
timz
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RE: The History Of Boac At MIA

Wed Dec 21, 2011 1:50 am

In 2/71 they flew NAS-MIA-LHR, NAS-JFK-LHR, and NAS-BDA-LHR-- but it seems not MIA-NAS-BDA-LHR. No VC10s to MIA then.
 
n729pa
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RE: The History Of Boac At MIA

Wed Dec 21, 2011 12:21 pm

How does it go?

"Flew in from Miami Beach B O A C,
Didn't get to sleep last night,
All the way the paper bag was on my knee,
Man I had a dreadful flight"

....if anyone wrote lyrics like that today, they'd get a lawsuit probably.
 
jfk777
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RE: The History Of Boac At MIA

Wed Dec 21, 2011 12:54 pm

BOAC served MIA as part of its Caribean flights to Jamaica and Nassau. It the mid-1970 BA became a 747 daily and now has 2 744 and this summer a third with a 777-200ER.

BA was probably provoked into stepping up its Miami flights in 1970 when National Airlines got the rights to fly to London and even had 2 747 for the route. National then got DC-10-30 and flew to about 5 European cities before its merger with Pan AM.
 
doulasc
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RE: The History Of Boac At MIA

Thu Dec 22, 2011 1:46 am

It seems to me the only flights from Miami to Europe in the 1960s was BOAC from MIA-NAS-BDA-LHR and Pan Am had a flight from MIA-SJU-LIS-MAD. It seems Miami-Europe picked up the 1970s when National started adding more European cities from Miami.
 
Viscount724
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RE: The History Of Boac At MIA

Thu Dec 22, 2011 3:44 am

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 6):
BA was probably provoked into stepping up its Miami flights in 1970 when National Airlines got the rights to fly to London

BA (still BOAC then) started MIA-LHR nonstop service in January 1970, presumably using 707s, followed by National in June 1970, initially using DC-8s.
 
jfk777
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RE: The History Of Boac At MIA

Thu Dec 22, 2011 3:19 pm

Quoting doulasc (Reply 7):
It seems Miami-Europe picked up the 1970s when National started adding more European cities from Miami.

I find it hard to imagine that there are no BOAC pictures in Miami with propreller planes ? They didn't fly there until they had to even though they flew to Jamaica and Nassau in the 1950's. They flew to Idlewild(JFK), Boston and Toronto.

The same can be said of Pan AM, it was happy flying in the 1950's from LAX, SFO and JFK to LHR but not from its South American base in Miami.

National was the first airline to fly daily from the Southern USA to London daily. That Sunkissed airline was the one that added the new dynamic to the MIA route map. The 1970's also started the first non British European airline to MIA with Lufthansa.
 
timz
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RE: The History Of Boac At MIA

Thu Dec 22, 2011 7:07 pm

Aviation Week for 12 May 1958 p45 says BOAC will discontinue its four daily MIA-NAS roundtrips in June-- doesn't say what aircraft they used. Maybe a leased Viscount?
 
Viscount724
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RE: The History Of Boac At MIA

Thu Dec 22, 2011 7:54 pm

Quoting timz (Reply 10):
Aviation Week for 12 May 1958 p45 says BOAC will discontinue its four daily MIA-NAS roundtrips in June-- doesn't say what aircraft they used. Maybe a leased Viscount?

Right, BWIA Viscounts operated many feeder routes for BOAC then. They had dual BOAC and BWIA titles. See Table 6 in the lower right hand corner of this excerpt from BOAC's March 1958 timetable.
http://timetableimages.com/ttimages/complete/ba58/ba58-03.jpg

Two of the BWIA/BOAC Viscounts in original and later livery.


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jfk777
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RE: The History Of Boac At MIA

Thu Dec 22, 2011 10:37 pm

Quoting timz (Reply 10):
Aviation Week for 12 May 1958 p45 says BOAC will discontinue its four daily MIA-NAS roundtrips in June-- doesn't say what aircraft they used. Maybe a leased Viscount?

Its very likely BOAC or BWIA flew from Nassau to MIA in 1958, but I am talking about flights from Miami to London. Not a Viscount feeder to Nassau to a BOAC flight from the Bahamas to the UK. Even back then the freight carried to teh Bahamas from Florida had to be impressive.
 
Viscount724
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RE: The History Of Boac At MIA

Thu Dec 22, 2011 10:45 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 12):
Quoting timz (Reply 10):
Aviation Week for 12 May 1958 p45 says BOAC will discontinue its four daily MIA-NAS roundtrips in June-- doesn't say what aircraft they used. Maybe a leased Viscount?

Its very likely BOAC or BWIA flew from Nassau to MIA in 1958, but I am talking about flights from Miami to London.

According to the BOAC March 1958 timetable, there were no Miami-London direct (same aircraft) flights then. The US-UK bilateral didn't permit direct LHR-MIA service then.

Same thing in 1960 and 1962 timetables.

In the June 1966 timetable there were 2 707s a week LHR-BDA-NAS-MIA, using the same aircraft but with a change of flight number at NAS, again no doubt because they weren't permitted to advertise direct service LHR-MIA then.

As mentioned earlier, BOAC started nonstop LHR-MIA service in January 1970, followed by National in June 1970.

[Edited 2011-12-22 15:02:42]
 
doulasc
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RE: The History Of Boac At MIA

Fri Dec 23, 2011 2:06 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 13):


I have the book Boeing 707/720 by George Cearley, on page 66 it shows in May 1962
shows Cunard Eagle Airways operating MIA-NAS-BDA-LHR twice a week with a Boeing 707-465.
and a Bristol Britannia until May 1 1962.
 
Viscount724
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RE: The History Of Boac At MIA

Fri Dec 23, 2011 8:06 pm

Quoting doulasc (Reply 14):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 13):


I have the book Boeing 707/720 by George Cearley, on page 66 it shows in May 1962
shows Cunard Eagle Airways operating MIA-NAS-BDA-LHR twice a week with a Boeing 707-465.
and a Bristol Britannia until May 1 1962.

Yes, found those flights in the October 1962 BOAC timetable (I was looking at the US-Europe pages only where there's no mention of MIA; it's in the Caribbean section). However there was still a change of flight number at NAS, so they couldn't be advertised as direct flights.
 
wingsofman72
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RE: The History Of Boac At MIA

Fri Dec 23, 2011 8:51 pm

I do not know the exact date, but must have been in the 70-71 period that BA started the 747 from MIA. I don't know if they were on the same date as NA 747, but I went out to MIA the day that NA started and was at the top of the garage when it took off from 9L, and for sure it used about 10,000' of the 10.5 runway with the 747-135. I seem to think the BA flight was just before it, but I may be mixing up 2 trips. I do have picutres of that someplace on the hundreds of slides I took back then, if I ever find them will try to post it.
 
timz
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RE: The History Of Boac At MIA

Fri Dec 23, 2011 10:19 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 12):
I am talking about flights from Miami to London.

What are you saying about them?
 
Viscount724
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RE: The History Of Boac At MIA

Sat Dec 24, 2011 1:10 am

Quoting wingsofman72 (Reply 16):
I do not know the exact date, but must have been in the 70-71 period that BA started the 747 from MIA. I don't know if they were on the same date as NA 747, but I went out to MIA the day that NA started and was at the top of the garage when it took off from 9L, and for sure it used about 10,000' of the 10.5 runway with the 747-135. I seem to think the BA flight was just before it, but I may be mixing up 2 trips. I do have picutres of that someplace on the hundreds of slides I took back then, if I ever find them will try to post it.

I don't believe BA was using the 747 to MIA as early as 1971. They didn't put their first 747 into service until April 14, 1971 (LHR-JFK), although several had been delivered a year earlier (the first in March 1970). Their pilots refused to fly them due to a salary dispute so several of BA's early 747s were parked for a year until that dispute was resolved. I'm sure Pan Am and TWA were pleased to have a year's head start on 747 service to LHR.

[Edited 2011-12-23 17:15:48]
 
cf6ppe
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RE: The History Of Boac At MIA

Sat Dec 24, 2011 5:19 am

BOAC B741 began LHR -> MIA scheduled service May 27, 1972.

A special B741 charter/special section was operated MIA -> LHR prior to the above to bring South Florida travel agents, dignitaries, etc., to London to celebrate the occasion.

One of my neighbors was an American Express travel agent and he and spouse were on the charter. They had been invited to participate in this joyous occasion more than a month before the trip and they asked if my spouse, child (6) and I could meet them in London and then return on the B741 first trip. I just asked my wife about this trip and she produced a shoe box with tickets, menus, and a baggage tag with the date May 27,1972 date stamped on it. So my family and I traveled MIA -> LHR arriving on May 22,1972 on B707-336 equipment and returned on the first trip. Anyway, this is the only time I did an inaugural trip.... Btw, ID80 was $69.80 + $3.00

One thing re: the LHR -> MIA, there were only about 80 passengers on board with us. My travel agent neighbor asked the purser to show us the First and the upper deck cabin so that he could recommend to his customers. I remember that both couples had spent almost all of our cash and had just enough to purchase two little bottles of champagne. It was a good thing that we were being picked up for the ride home.... good memories....

Earlier in 1972, National was operating DC8-54s on the LHR MIA route. I did this run both directions....
 
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zippyjet
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RE: The History Of Boac At MIA

Sat Dec 24, 2011 6:30 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 8):

BA (still BOAC then) started MIA-LHR nonstop service in January 1970, presumably using 707s, followed by National in June 1970, initially using DC-8s.

Didn't Eastern get into the MIA-LHR service with DC-10's after deregulation?

Quoting cf6ppe (Reply 19):
Earlier in 1972, National was operating DC8-54s on the LHR MIA route. I did this run both directions....

Did your National DC-8 54 flights from MIA-LHR-MIA have the curtains, Palomar seats with the seat back mounted reading lights? Or was this 8 an updated cabin?
I'm Zippyjet & I approve of this message!
 
David_itl
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RE: The History Of Boac At MIA

Sat Dec 24, 2011 8:09 am

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 20):
Didn't Eastern get into the MIA-LHR service with DC-10's after deregulation?

Pretty sure it was MIA-LGW they did (flight numbers EA444/445 ring a bell)
 
cf6ppe
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RE: The History Of Boac At MIA

Sat Dec 24, 2011 8:43 am

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 20):
Did your National DC-8 54 flights from MIA-LHR-MIA have the curtains, Palomar seats with the seat back mounted reading lights? Or was this 8 an updated cabin?

I don't remember the cabin curtains, seats, etc. being different from the EAL DC8s... this happened almost 40 years ago - at that time it wasn't important to me. What I do remember is (in first class) that I was about three drinks behind by the time we went through FL100... the NAL crew served apricot cocktails before push back, then one (or two) on the long taxi to 9L, and another while we waited for take-off clearance and the drinks and caviar continued. Also, dinner was superb, one of my favorites roast beef with potatoes, carrots, etc. cooked in the beef drippings. The two DC8-54s used on this route were freighters with doors and were leased from I believe Arrow.

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 20):
Didn't Eastern get into the MIA-LHR service with DC-10's after deregulation?

I'm not sure of the details re: MIA London service even though I supported the DC10 (and A300) powerplants at that time.

changed LHR to London

[Edited 2011-12-24 00:48:00]
 
doulasc
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RE: The History Of Boac At MIA

Sat Dec 24, 2011 2:45 pm

speaking of National's DC-8s to LHR,I was wondering, They had a fleet of DC-8s and two stretch DC-8-61s. Did their
current fleet of DC-8s not have the range to do MIA-LHR ? I would have thought the stretch 8s would.
 
Viscount724
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RE: The History Of Boac At MIA

Sat Dec 24, 2011 9:46 pm

Quoting doulasc (Reply 23):
speaking of National's DC-8s to LHR,I was wondering, They had a fleet of DC-8s and two stretch DC-8-61s. Did their
current fleet of DC-8s not have the range to do MIA-LHR ? I would have thought the stretch 8s would.

The DC-8-61 was quite limited in range and I doubt it would have been able to operate MIA-LHR nonstop except when being ferried almost empty. In contrast to the much longer-range DC-8-62 and -63, the -61 was just a 37-foot stretch of the DC-8-50 with virtually no other changes (and the same MTOW), so it traded range for payload.

Even National's own DC-8-50s must have been range-limited on MIA-LHR as until the 747 and later DC-10 was used on the route National used 2 DC-8-54F combis leased from charter carrier Airlift International.

[Edited 2011-12-24 13:47:36]

[Edited 2011-12-24 13:48:44]
 
cf6ppe
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RE: The History Of Boac At MIA

Sun Dec 25, 2011 8:10 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 24):
National used 2 DC-8-54F combis leased from charter carrier Airlift International.

Thank you for the correction. I could remember where their base was (at west end of MIA) but I just couldn't get Airlift International to come up...
 
WA707atMSP
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RE: The History Of Boac At MIA

Tue Dec 27, 2011 7:21 pm

Quoting david_itl (Reply 21):
Quoting zippyjet (Reply 20):
Didn't Eastern get into the MIA-LHR service with DC-10's after deregulation?

Pretty sure it was MIA-LGW they did (flight numbers EA444/445 ring a bell)

As we've discussed before, under Bermuda II the only airlines allowed to serve LHR were PA, TW, and NA.

When PA and NA merged, the CAB said they reserved the right to transfer NA's MIA-London authority to another airline as a condition of the merger. The British government said that the only airline that would be allowed to serve MIA-London via LHR would be NA's legal successor, PA, and this factored into the CAB's decision to allow PA to assume NA's authority.

Shortly afterward, the US and Britain agreed to allow two additional airlines to serve London, but via LGW instead of LHR. The US chose Air Florida and Britain chose Laker.

When Air Florida shut down in 1984, the US allowed Eastern to assume Air Florida's authority. I think the route subsequently moved from Eastern to Continental after the Texas Air takeover - can someone confirm.

MIA-London was included in American's purchase of Eastern's Latin American authority from Texas Air. When American purchased TWA's LHR authority, and UA and Delta purchased Pan Am's European routes, the US Government allowed AA to move the ex-QH / EA LGW route to LHR, and required the ex-PA / NA route to be flown through LGW.
Seaholm Maples are #1!
 
jfk777
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RE: The History Of Boac At MIA

Tue Dec 27, 2011 7:27 pm

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 26):
When Air Florida shut down in 1984, the US allowed Eastern to assume Air Florida's authority. I think the route subsequently moved from Eastern to Continental after the Texas Air takeover - can someone confirm.

Eastern flew to LGW starting in the spring of 1986 and was through by October of 1986, it was loosing it shirt against PA, BA and a new airline called "Virgin AtlantiC".
 
WA707atMSP
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RE: The History Of Boac At MIA

Tue Dec 27, 2011 9:03 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 27):
Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 26):
When Air Florida shut down in 1984, the US allowed Eastern to assume Air Florida's authority. I think the route subsequently moved from Eastern to Continental after the Texas Air takeover - can someone confirm.

Eastern flew to LGW starting in the spring of 1986 and was through by October of 1986, it was loosing it shirt against PA, BA and a new airline called "Virgin AtlantiC".

Eastern began serving LGW in 1985, not 1986. There are photos in the database of EA DC-10s at LGW in 1985.

Eastern did not leave the route because they were "losing their shirt". After Texas Air took over Eastern, a number of Eastern's more desirable assets were moved to Continental, including six A300s, part ownership in Eastern's "SODA" computer reservations system (which was renamed "System One" by Texas Air), and, I believe, the MIA-LGW route.
Seaholm Maples are #1!
 
jfk777
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RE: The History Of Boac At MIA

Wed Dec 28, 2011 1:04 pm

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 28):
Eastern began serving LGW in 1985, not 1986. There are photos in the database of EA DC-10s at LGW in 1985.

Eastern did not leave the route because they were "losing their shirt". After Texas Air took over Eastern, a number of Eastern's more desirable assets were moved to Continental, including six A300s, part ownership in Eastern's "SODA" computer reservations system (which was renamed "System One" by Texas Air), and, I believe, the MIA-LGW route.

IF Eastern was NOT "loosing their shirt" to LGW why would they stop in October 1986 ? and then sell 1 of the 3 DC-10-30 they purchased for the route ?

Texas Air did transfer System One, 6 A300 and charge EA a penny per gallon of fuel as a "fee" but what does that have to do with London from MIA ? Just perhaps Continetal could make a profit to LGW from MIA with their lower costs then EA.

Be Objective and recognize the facts, 2 airline flew to LHR BA & PA. Virgin Atlantic was flying to LGW from MIA too. Where did EA fit into the whole mix? Miami was to far south to be a practical connection point to London except for Florida cities. IT was not considered a "premium" airline, so the J and F class traffic went to BA primarily. Eastern was discounting the hell out of the J and F cabins. Even today is Delta making any money from MIA to LHR flying against( summer 2012) 3 BA daily( 2 747 & 1 777), 1 AA 777 & ! Virgin ( 1 747 or A340-600) ? Marginally if they are because they reduced capacity froma 764 to a 763ER.
 
WA707atMSP
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RE: The History Of Boac At MIA

Thu Dec 29, 2011 3:15 pm

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 28):
Quoting jfk777 (Reply 27):
Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 26):
When Air Florida shut down in 1984, the US allowed Eastern to assume Air Florida's authority. I think the route subsequently moved from Eastern to Continental after the Texas Air takeover - can someone confirm.

Eastern flew to LGW starting in the spring of 1986 and was through by October of 1986, it was loosing it shirt against PA, BA and a new airline called "Virgin AtlantiC".

[quote=jfk777,reply=29]IF Eastern was NOT "loosing their shirt" to LGW why would they stop in October 1986 ? and then sell 1 of the 3 DC-10-30 they purchased for the route ?


I checked my copy of R.E.G. Davies' excellent "Eastern - an Airline and its Aircraft". This book confirms that Eastern inaugurated MIA-LGW on 15 July 1985, NOT in the spring of 1986.

According to Davies' book, the DC-10-30 was not sold; it had been leased temporarily from Alitalia, and was returned to AZ.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 29):
Be Objective and recognize the facts, 2 airline flew to LHR BA & PA. Virgin Atlantic was flying to LGW from MIA too. Where did EA fit into the whole mix?

When EA inaugurated MIA-LHR, they were by far the largest airline in MIA, and had a very large base of frequent flyers and corporate contracts in MIA / South Florida. You are correct in that CO had a lower cost base than EA, but if EA did not "fit into the whole mix" at MIA, even with its large presence in MIA, then CO would definitely have not been able to make the route work competing against BA, PA, and VS.
Seaholm Maples are #1!
 
jfk777
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RE: The History Of Boac At MIA

Thu Dec 29, 2011 6:41 pm

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 30):
When EA inaugurated MIA-LHR, they were by far the largest airline in MIA, and had a very large base of frequent flyers and corporate contracts in MIA / South Florida. You are correct in that CO had a lower cost base than EA, but if EA did not "fit into the whole mix" at MIA, even with its large presence in MIA, then CO would definitely have not been able to make the route work competing against BA, PA, and VS.

EA "didn't fit into the London mix" I was not making that statement with regard to all Miami, the topic here is "London" NOT who the biggest airline in Miami is.

Eastern flew to Gatwick Not Heathrow. Whatever corporate contracts and FF base they had, many people that went to London also flew with a Pan Am contract or had FF miles on PA. This was era of the Bermuda II with only TWA and PA allowed to LHR.
EA was a short and medium range airline not a 3 class long haul airline. They didn't have long haul planes until London became a destination for them.
Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 30):
According to Davies' book, the DC-10-30 was not sold; it had been leased temporarily from Alitalia, and was returned to AZ.

EA purchased 3 DC-10-30 from Alitalia, it sold 1 after cancelling LHR and flew the other two to Buenos Aires from MIA as EA L-1011's did not have the nonstop range for MIA to EZE nonstops. Thise 2 DC-10's were part of EA until the end. I hope this clarifies it, with all do respect to Author Davies he sometimes is wrong.
 
OB1504
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RE: The History Of Boac At MIA

Thu Dec 29, 2011 8:15 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 29):
IF Eastern was NOT "loosing their shirt" to LGW why would they stop in October 1986 ? and then sell 1 of the 3 DC-10-30 they purchased for the route ?

The route was transferred to Continental and upgraded to a 747:


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jfk777
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RE: The History Of Boac At MIA

Thu Dec 29, 2011 8:34 pm

Quoting OB1504 (Reply 32):
The route was transferred to Continental and upgraded to a 747

Contiental's costs were less then Eastern's, CAL transferred many assets including Mia to LGW route, system One, 6 A300 and charged EA a penny to buy fuel through Texas Air. The Asset stripping at Eastern for CAL's benefit has been well documented. IF you don't get that at this point I don;t know what to say. Why didn't LGW work at EA, I don;t know and could care less because at the time I was flying BA club Class to the UK, didn;t even consider taking the EA DC-10.

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