United Airline
Topic Author
Posts: 8773
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:24 pm

How Is UA's HKG-SIN/SGN Doing?

Tue Dec 20, 2011 7:10 am

How is UA's HKG-SIN/SGN doing? I understand that they have downgraded it to a B 737-800.

I also heard rumours that they will be using the B767 for intra-asia flying. Will that include HKG-SIN/SGN?
 
User avatar
Coal
Posts: 2283
Joined: Sun Aug 13, 2006 11:14 am

RE: How Is UA's HKG-SIN/SGN Doing?

Tue Dec 20, 2011 8:41 am

It's so sad to see this flight going from a 744 to a 738. As this changed happened, they also closed down the downtown office they had just in front of Lau Pa Sat. I guess with all the LCCs flying SIN-HKG they probably couldn't compete on the route.

Is the SIN-NRT flight still a 772?

Cheers
Coal
Nxt Flts: MI RGN-SIN | SQ SIN-RGN-SIN | CX SIN-HKG-PVG | SQ PVG-SIN
 
United Airline
Topic Author
Posts: 8773
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:24 pm

RE: How Is UA's HKG-SIN/SGN Doing?

Tue Dec 20, 2011 9:14 am

Do they serve free alcohol still?

Quoting Coal (Reply 1):
Is the SIN-NRT flight still a 772?

It is now a B 747-400
 
Cysafan
Posts: 81
Joined: Wed Jul 22, 2009 1:02 pm

RE: How Is UA's HKG-SIN/SGN Doing?

Tue Dec 20, 2011 9:42 am

Quoting United Airline (Reply 2):
Do they serve free alcohol still?

Yeah they still do. More information located below: (extract from United Website)

United Economy®
Shortly after takeoff, customers will enjoy a beverage service with snacks, soft drinks and premium liquors, beer and wine. Alcoholic beverages are complimentary on flights within Asia and on international trans-Pacific flights.

As for the B747-400 , it 's now a 1X daily SIN-NRT or only the second option: SIN-HKG , HKG-NRT (Both flights are deployed with B737-800s)
 
User avatar
STT757
Posts: 13223
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2000 1:14 am

RE: How Is UA's HKG-SIN/SGN Doing?

Tue Dec 20, 2011 12:53 pm

Quoting United Airline (Thread starter):
I also heard rumours that they will be using the B767 for intra-asia flying.



I saw that rumor too, someone had the idea that UA were converting the domestic 763s to International configuration to operate in Asia. The fact is those newly configured 763s are going to be replacing PMCO 762s to Latin America and Europe as well as replacing PMCO 757s on Trans-Atlantic routes from EWR. They are not going to be flying HKG-SIN etc..
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
United Airline
Topic Author
Posts: 8773
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:24 pm

RE: How Is UA's HKG-SIN/SGN Doing?

Wed Dec 21, 2011 3:31 am

Why don't they just use the B 767-200s for intra-Asia or domestic flying? Geeeeeeeez

Wonder if we will see HKG-SIN going back to a B 747-400. Or at least a B 777-200ER? MAYBE during peak season?
 
as739x
Posts: 5008
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2003 7:23 am

RE: How Is UA's HKG-SIN/SGN Doing?

Wed Dec 21, 2011 3:53 am

Quoting United Airline (Thread starter):

HKG-SGN is now a CO 738. And until sometime in January it's not even operating daily.
"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
 
United Airline
Topic Author
Posts: 8773
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:24 pm

RE: How Is UA's HKG-SIN/SGN Doing?

Wed Dec 21, 2011 5:11 am

HKG-SIN/SGN are now CO flights. Do they serve free alcohol in economy?
 
CO777DAL
Posts: 423
Joined: Thu Feb 08, 2007 6:01 am

RE: How Is UA's HKG-SIN/SGN Doing?

Wed Dec 21, 2011 5:51 am

Quoting United Airline (Reply 7):
HKG-SIN/SGN are now CO flights. Do they serve free alcohol in economy?

CO was not serving free alcohol on EWR-HKG in coach and that was this month. CO always charges in coach. They call the flights UA now. I would pull out the Hemispheres mag after they F/A announce it as a UA flight and point where it says alcohol is free in UA economy within Asia or to or from Asia. See what they say. If they say this is a CO flight then I would say why don't you announce it as such then.
Worked Hard. Flew Right. Farewell, Continental. Thanks for the memories.
 
LAXintl
Posts: 20183
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

RE: How Is UA's HKG-SIN/SGN Doing?

Wed Dec 21, 2011 6:19 am

Quoting Coal (Reply 1):
I guess with all the LCCs flying SIN-HKG they probably couldn't compete on the route.

They dont need to compete.

Flight is meant for USA-SIN traffic.

Prior UA had no choice but utilize a massive 744. Now with the merger they have access to Pacific based CO aircraft which can cleverly be slotted in and cover some of the intra-Asia flying.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
mogandoCI
Posts: 1247
Joined: Thu Jun 04, 2009 2:39 pm

RE: How Is UA's HKG-SIN/SGN Doing?

Wed Dec 21, 2011 3:04 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 9):
Flight is meant for USA-SIN traffic.

Prior UA had no choice but utilize a massive 744. Now with the merger they have access to Pacific based CO aircraft which can cleverly be slotted in and cover some of the intra-Asia flying.

Except that it's a major downgrade of service levels that essentially drive all premium pax to the NRT connection. Maybe that's their plan after all to make HKG-SFO/ORD more O&D heavy.

I agree 744 HKG-SIN is a waste but it should be minimum international business standards, meaning CO 752 w/ flat bed or some sort of 763. Taking a 15 hour ORD-HKG flight on UA flat bed then switch to another 4 hours on some near-upright 38" junk is unacceptable for those paying $8K RT in J.
 
codc10
Posts: 1765
Joined: Sat Jul 08, 2000 7:18 am

RE: How Is UA's HKG-SIN/SGN Doing?

Wed Dec 21, 2011 3:33 pm

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 10):
Except that it's a major downgrade of service levels that essentially drive all premium pax to the NRT connection. Maybe that's their plan after all to make HKG-SFO/ORD more O&D heavy.

EXACTLY.

With NRT demand softening over the past year (but rebounding a bit as of late), UA would rather shift some more high-yield traffic over the NRT hub to ensure the HKG operation is catering to as much O&D as possible. There's no need for duplicate service SIN when most of the 744 from HKG-SIN is junk (low-yield) traffic.

SIN-NRT remains an IPTE-configured 747 and NRT offers more connections than HKG on UA to the likes of HNL, IAH, LAX, IAD or SEA. It's really not the unmitigated disaster that some on the various message boards make it out to be.
 
mogandoCI
Posts: 1247
Joined: Thu Jun 04, 2009 2:39 pm

RE: How Is UA's HKG-SIN/SGN Doing?

Wed Dec 21, 2011 3:41 pm

Quoting CODC10 (Reply 11):
EXACTLY.

With NRT demand softening over the past year (but rebounding a bit as of late), UA would rather shift some more high-yield traffic over the NRT hub to ensure the HKG operation is catering to as much O&D as possible. There's no need for duplicate service SIN when most of the 744 from HKG-SIN is junk (low-yield) traffic.

Welcome to my respected users list - one of the few cool heads here.
 
LAXintl
Posts: 20183
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

RE: How Is UA's HKG-SIN/SGN Doing?

Wed Dec 21, 2011 4:31 pm

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 10):
Except that it's a major downgrade of service levels that essentially drive all premium pax to the NRT connection. Maybe that's their plan after all to make HKG-SFO/ORD more O&D heavy.

I agree 744 HKG-SIN is a waste but it should be minimum international business standards, meaning CO 752 w/ flat bed or some sort of 763. Taking a 15 hour ORD-HKG flight on UA flat bed then switch to another 4 hours on some near-upright 38" junk is unacceptable for those paying $8K RT in J.

I don't see it unacceptable at all.

Its no different then some one flying HKG-SFO-(pick your domestic US city), and sitting on a 2-class aircraft for those same hours.

Or any different than flying a major European airline and connecting someplace withing Europe onboard their narrow body fleet, which in most cases is even worse having essentially 3x3 economy product still up front.

Changes of products is a very common thing and hardly unique to United. Matter of fact it also happens all over Asia. I cant tell you the number of times I've gone from long haul to regional/domestic products on top Asian carriers as well.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
User avatar
huaiwei
Posts: 259
Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2008 4:36 am

RE: How Is UA's HKG-SIN/SGN Doing?

Wed Dec 21, 2011 4:49 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 9):
cleverly

I am not sure if pitting a UA 738 against a CX 744 and an SQ A380 is really a clever move. If UA is really only interested in the SIN-USA market, then there is no need to operate two routes into SIN. It is obvious to me that UA is also after a slice of the intra-Asia market, and like the OP, I am also wondering just how much better are they fairing with their 738 weapon.
It's huaiwei...not huawei. I have nothing to do with the PRC! :)
 
mogandoCI
Posts: 1247
Joined: Thu Jun 04, 2009 2:39 pm

RE: How Is UA's HKG-SIN/SGN Doing?

Wed Dec 21, 2011 5:12 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 13):
Changes of products is a very common thing and hardly unique to United. Matter of fact it also happens all over Asia. I cant tell you the number of times I've gone from long haul to regional/domestic products on top Asian carriers as well.

I've recently flown a "regional" A330 on CX HKG-NRT.... it's no flat bed but it's miles ahead of CO 738, esp in premium class.

To the Y pax it makes practically zero difference, but the lack of competitiveness comes from the front cabin and narrow-body (most large Asian carriers use WB on trunk intra-Asian routes - that's why you see 333 and 772 from your neighbors flooding your doorstep while you'll never see a LH 330 in LHR).

The competition is Asian carriers, so in order to compete, UA must rise up to that level.
 
LAXintl
Posts: 20183
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

RE: How Is UA's HKG-SIN/SGN Doing?

Wed Dec 21, 2011 5:35 pm

Quoting huaiwei (Reply 14):
I am not sure if pitting a UA 738 against a CX 744 and an SQ A380 is really a clever move. If UA is really only interested in the SIN-USA market, then there is no need to operate two routes into SIN. It is obvious to me that UA is also after a slice of the intra-Asia market, and like the OP, I am also wondering just how much better are they fairing with their 738 weapon.

Historically the UA/DL predecessors Pan Am and Northwest had to offer 5th intra-Asia fares to help fill aircraft.
It was simply an issue of arithmetic as the same gauge of aircraft would continue beyond gateways such as Tokyo.
Unlike Europe where the airline could base smaller aircraft such as 727s to feed larger 747s, 5th freedom sales were important to backfill traffic that deplaned at the Asia gateway.

This led to carriers doing burgeoning business with Asian consolidators however the idea has always been to sell US-Asia first, and not rely on 5th freedom rights. With ability for UA to more correctly apply appropriate gauge now intra-Asia following the merger it no longer needs to as actively chase after 5th freedom sales.

The reason SIN gets 2 flights, is because the demand is there. Cutting back to a single flight via NRT was a drop too much from its prior double daily capacity. Additionally the SIN feed is still needed to help full the HKG Pacific sectors.

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 15):
The competition is Asian carriers, so in order to compete, UA must rise up to that level.

And how would an Asian carrier get you to off line Denver, Houston, Philadelphia, Boston, Miami or hundreds of cities in the Americas?

They would most connect you to another airline. So while you might enjoy a nice sleeper across the Pacific, you'd get whatever the domestic product was for your continuation. Same situation exist in Europe. Its how things are.

At the end, the competition is not intra-Asia for US airlines, its point to point across the Pacific. How to sell end to end ticket from Tulsa to Tokyo, or Hong Kong to San Antonio as an example.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
User avatar
huaiwei
Posts: 259
Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2008 4:36 am

RE: How Is UA's HKG-SIN/SGN Doing?

Wed Dec 21, 2011 5:41 pm

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 15):
To the Y pax it makes practically zero difference, but the lack of competitiveness comes from the front cabin and narrow-body (most large Asian carriers use WB on trunk intra-Asian routes - that's why you see 333 and 772 from your neighbors flooding your doorstep while you'll never see a LH 330 in LHR).

The competition is Asian carriers, so in order to compete, UA must rise up to that level.

  

And it is WB not just on trunk intra-Asian routes for the major Asian airlines. CX and SQ flies WBs to every destination, including those 30 minutes away, as does JL and NH on all international routes. It is just so common to see WBs here that a NB on a trunk Asian route on a full service carrier comes across almost as a joke...
It's huaiwei...not huawei. I have nothing to do with the PRC! :)
 
UAL777UK
Posts: 2142
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2005 1:16 am

RE: How Is UA's HKG-SIN/SGN Doing?

Wed Dec 21, 2011 5:53 pm

Quoting huaiwei (Reply 17):
CX and SQ flies WBs to every destination, including those 30 minutes away,

Which I suspect struggle to turn a profit. CX and SQ are in small, correction, very small countries with no domestic flying. I suspect if they had domestic flying, they would probabaly have NB doing the routes.
Are you saying therefore that BA for instance should be running WB from LHR to EDI, ABZ, GLA etc to cater for those F class passengers that just landed from HKG etc?
At Least on CO/UA out of HKG on a 738 you get a decent F seat. Thats not an option flying in Europe, not matter who the European carrier is.
 
mogandoCI
Posts: 1247
Joined: Thu Jun 04, 2009 2:39 pm

RE: How Is UA's HKG-SIN/SGN Doing?

Wed Dec 21, 2011 6:00 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 16):
And how would an Asian carrier get you to off line Denver, Houston, Philadelphia, Boston, Miami or hundreds of cities in the Americas?

They would most connect you to another airline. So while you might enjoy a nice sleeper across the Pacific, you'd get whatever the domestic product was for your continuation. Same situation exist in Europe. Its how things are.

So essentially the US airlines would only win where the Asian carriers don't reach? The US carriers are free to race-to-the-bottom all they want domestically, but internationally, you compete with whichever foreign carriers you're up against.

The bean counters strive for "good enough," the visionaries strive for the best.

ps : SQ SIN-DME-IAH, JL NRT-BOS soon
 
User avatar
huaiwei
Posts: 259
Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2008 4:36 am

RE: How Is UA's HKG-SIN/SGN Doing?

Wed Dec 21, 2011 6:27 pm

Quoting ual777uk (Reply 18):
Which I suspect struggle to turn a profit.

You suspect wrong. SQ's 30 min route to KUL is one of it's top money-spinners until LCCs inundated the route a few years ago, but it is still making money. SQ is also making bucket loads out of CGK which is merely one hour away. sending as many as eight WBs there very day. The eighth daily was introduced recently in Sept, despite the route seeing competition from a staggering 12 different airlines.

CX's shortest routes are to places like TPE, and I don't think I need to say much on just how profitable this route is.

Quoting ual777uk (Reply 18):
small, correction, very small countries with no domestic flying. I suspect if they had domestic flying, they would probabaly have NB doing the routes.

And what is the relevance of this? We are talking about intra-Asian regional routes, not domestic routes, unless you are suggesting the American carriers also fly domestic Asian routes? And may I also point out that SQ and CX certainly do operate NBs, which are through their regional subsidiaries, but that still does not move away from the fact that WBs are extremely common in this part of the world, and not just on trunk routes (I did not mention domestic, but I am sure that will become common very soon in China and India).

Quoting ual777uk (Reply 18):
Are you saying therefore that BA for instance should be running WB from LHR to EDI, ABZ, GLA etc to cater for those F class passengers that just landed from HKG etc?

Are you saying a domestic UK flight is equivalent to a SIN-HKG flight?
It's huaiwei...not huawei. I have nothing to do with the PRC! :)
 
mogandoCI
Posts: 1247
Joined: Thu Jun 04, 2009 2:39 pm

RE: How Is UA's HKG-SIN/SGN Doing?

Wed Dec 21, 2011 6:40 pm

Quoting ual777uk (Reply 18):
At Least on CO/UA out of HKG on a 738 you get a decent F seat. Thats not an option flying in Europe, not matter who the European carrier is.

SIN-HKG deserves the same level of service as JFK-SFO/LAX flagships / p.s. flights.
 
UAL777UK
Posts: 2142
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2005 1:16 am

RE: How Is UA's HKG-SIN/SGN Doing?

Wed Dec 21, 2011 7:29 pm

Quoting huaiwei (Reply 20):
SQ's 30 min route to KUL is one of it's top money-spinners until LCCs inundated the route a few years ago

Is, was, make your mind up but we digress.

Quoting huaiwei (Reply 20):
And may I also point out that SQ and CX certainly do operate NBs, which are through their regional subsidiaries

But not on their own metal right.

Quoting huaiwei (Reply 20):
Are you saying a domestic UK flight is equivalent to a SIN-HKG flight?

You completely missed the point. If it makes you feel better then lets have the BA F passenger flying in on CX but his final destination with BA is AMS. Do you think he should get that sleeper suite on that short leg??

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 21):
SIN-HKG deserves the same level of service as JFK-SFO/LAX flagships / p.s. flights.

I would love that to happen but its just not going to so if you went the bells and whistles go via NRT, simple really.
 
Rdh3e
Posts: 2827
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:09 pm

RE: How Is UA's HKG-SIN/SGN Doing?

Wed Dec 21, 2011 7:39 pm

Quoting ual777uk (Reply 22):
I would love that to happen but its just not going to so if you went the bells and whistles go via NRT, simple really.

Exactly, and it really it's even that big of a distance penalty if you're not coming from the very east coast.

West Coast:
NRT-SIN%2C+SFO-HKG-SIN&MS=wls&DU=mi" target="_blank">http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=SFO-NRT-SIN%2C+SFO-HKG-SIN&MS=wls&DU=mi

East Coast:
NRT-SIN" target="_blank">http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=EWR-HKG-SIN,+EWR-NRT-SIN
 
LAXintl
Posts: 20183
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

RE: How Is UA's HKG-SIN/SGN Doing?

Wed Dec 21, 2011 7:42 pm

Amazing some of you guys truly believe United is even trying to compete on a sector like HKG-SIN against the likes of CX or SQ with 10 odd flights between them.

United serves a place like SIN because there is demand from it's US home market.

Changes of gauge and cabin furnishings are extremely common globaly and UA use of 737 in Asia is hardly a unique nor unacceptable way to provide connecting services.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
User avatar
huaiwei
Posts: 259
Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2008 4:36 am

RE: How Is UA's HKG-SIN/SGN Doing?

Wed Dec 21, 2011 7:48 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 16):
Additionally the SIN feed is still needed to help full the HKG Pacific sectors.

In other words, while CX can fly transpac flights profitably while relying on its Asian feed, UA cannot fly the same route profitably while relying on its feed from the Americas alone? What gives?

Quoting ual777uk (Reply 22):

Is, was, make your mind up but we digress.

Your question was whether it is profitable. I believe my statement did not indicate a loss either before or currently, for if it was, SQ would have surrendered all flights to MI or even ceded the route entirely to Tiger since the route's liberalisation by now.

Quoting ual777uk (Reply 22):
But not on their own metal right.

And the point being?

Quoting ual777uk (Reply 22):
You completely missed the point. If it makes you feel better then lets have the BA F passenger flying in on CX but his final destination with BA is AMS. Do you think he should get that sleeper suite on that short leg??

You missed the point too, for we are talking about SIN-HKG and SGN-HKG at the end of the day. Who cares if your BA is not going to pamper passengers flying F in domestic UK short hops, when we are talking about an international five hour journey on the SIN-HKG sector where comfort certainly counts?

Quoting ual777uk (Reply 22):
I would love that to happen but its just not going to so if you went the bells and whistles go via NRT, simple really.

The simpler option for most Asians is to simply not fly UA (as is already the case anyway). Duh.
It's huaiwei...not huawei. I have nothing to do with the PRC! :)
 
mogandoCI
Posts: 1247
Joined: Thu Jun 04, 2009 2:39 pm

RE: How Is UA's HKG-SIN/SGN Doing?

Wed Dec 21, 2011 8:08 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 24):
Amazing some of you guys truly believe United is even trying to compete on a sector like HKG-SIN against the likes of CX or SQ with 10 odd flights between them.

Are you the only one with this impression? We're all talking UA vs. SQ vs. CX on Singapore to USA. That's where UA is competing (since they don't JV or even code-share with SQ).

Somehow it's either 744 or all the way down to 738. We're merely saying there's a middle ground that balances CASM and customer satisfaction.

Maybe the ideal solution would arrive when UA restart LAXHKG and do a LAX-HKG-SIN tag on 787. The yields on SGN aren't going anywhere so that's no imminent need to upgauge.
 
LAXintl
Posts: 20183
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

RE: How Is UA's HKG-SIN/SGN Doing?

Wed Dec 21, 2011 8:25 pm

Quoting huaiwei (Reply 25):
In other words, while CX can fly transpac flights profitably while relying on its Asian feed, UA cannot fly the same route profitably while relying on its feed from the Americas alone? What gives?

CX gets a hell lot of feed in the US from partners like AA. People flying MD-80s from all across the continent to connect to CX.

Nothing wrong with UA having a model that feeds its HKG-SFO/ORD flights on both ends with respective feeder services.

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 26):
Are you the only one with this impression? We're all talking UA vs. SQ vs. CX on Singapore to USA. That's where UA is competing (since they don't JV or even code-share with SQ).

Somehow it's either 744 or all the way down to 738. We're merely saying there's a middle ground that balances CASM and customer satisfaction.

The middle ground is the cleverly use of the appropriate capacity gauge mix. The 737 works aptly. It works on the US end of the equation, and thanks to legacy CO GUM operations there is ability to introduce the right gauge on intra-Asia segments now.

If you guys feel its too low class for you to fly in a 737, then don't. However the business case is what it is, and a change of gauge is hardly the problem you make it out to be in reality.


Don't know how much you guys know about United services across the Pacific, however intra-Asia flying is a business it wants to get out of. As time has gone on, UA has introduced every more nonstop services (China, Korea etc) overflying its NRT hub. Additionally it has been able to expand its ANA partnership with NH serving several NRT feed markets.

At the end of the day, its about transporting US-Asia passengers and not competing for direct intra-Asia traffic. If the equipment and traffic flow was in place UA would serve its entire Asia portfolio nonstop - the same manner it has been able to do in Europe and eliminated its intra-Europe legs (eg 727s based at LHR). Until such time it must balance the best mix of gauge and cost.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
User avatar
huaiwei
Posts: 259
Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2008 4:36 am

RE: How Is UA's HKG-SIN/SGN Doing?

Wed Dec 21, 2011 8:26 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 24):
Amazing some of you guys truly believe United is even trying to compete on a sector like HKG-SIN against the likes of CX or SQ with 10 odd flights between them.

If they are not competitive on any sector, then how do they make money and stay viable as a company?

As I mentioned above, if UA somehow cannot fill its planes on transpac routes without flying onward intra-Asian flights while CX and SIN can without flying beyond their US destinations, then is the 738 UA's best response to win more customers instead of continuing to rely on die-hard Americans and cost-conscious Asians?
It's huaiwei...not huawei. I have nothing to do with the PRC! :)
 
LAXintl
Posts: 20183
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

RE: How Is UA's HKG-SIN/SGN Doing?

Wed Dec 21, 2011 8:33 pm

Quoting huaiwei (Reply 28):
If they are not competitive on any sector, then how do they make money and stay viable as a company?

Oh common its business 101.

An airline does not strictly look at sector profitability, they look at the network. UA operates KWI-BAH and soon DXB-DOH. You think they have any interest in competing against EK or QR on such segments? Of course not. Routes are flow as they benefit the larger network with critical feed.


This is the same in industry after industry. Do you think a grocery store makes money selling all merchandise? No, but it must sell some things from water, rice, fruit etc often at a loss as these are things people come in the door for. Selling the rice however helps maybe make a sale of ketchup which has a higher profit margin.


No airline - SQ, CX etc operate profitability on all the hub spokes. However many loss making spokes are kept as they contribute to the success of other spokes and ultimately the larger network.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
mogandoCI
Posts: 1247
Joined: Thu Jun 04, 2009 2:39 pm

RE: How Is UA's HKG-SIN/SGN Doing?

Wed Dec 21, 2011 8:35 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 27):
Don't know how much you guys know about United services across the Pacific, however intra-Asia flying is a business it wants to get out of. As time has gone on, UA has introduced every more nonstop services (China, Korea etc) overflying its NRT hub. Additionally it has been able to expand its ANA partnership with NH serving several NRT feed markets.

I lived in HKG and SFO, and flew UA on that route more than a dozen times. What's your point ?

If UA really wants to get out of it, then they should drop HKG-SIN tag if it's such a duplicate of NRT-SIN tag.

[Edited 2011-12-21 12:37:55]
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 15326
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

RE: How Is UA's HKG-SIN/SGN Doing?

Wed Dec 21, 2011 9:03 pm

Quoting huaiwei (Reply 28):
If they are not competitive on any sector, then how do they make money and stay viable as a company?

Do you think SQ makes money on ATHIST? AUHJED? MUCMAN? CX on YVRJFK? KL on KULCGK? Lots of airlines operate tags that in an ideal world would be on smaller metal or partner carriers.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
mogandoCI
Posts: 1247
Joined: Thu Jun 04, 2009 2:39 pm

RE: How Is UA's HKG-SIN/SGN Doing?

Wed Dec 21, 2011 9:27 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 31):
Do you think SQ makes money on ATHIST? AUHJED? MUCMAN? CX on YVRJFK? KL on KULCGK? Lots of airlines operate tags that in an ideal world would be on smaller metal or partner carriers.

Can't speak for SQ or KL but CX definitely makes a crap load on YVR-JFK. The route is void of any meaningful competition (in the winter months, it's either AC A319 or CX 77W), and they have full 5th freedom rights on it.

It's one of the few intra-NorthAmerican routes that you're guaranteed flying an internationally-configured plane (instead of just repositioning flights), and surprisingly, CX doesn't over-gouge in economy (they make up the difference by charging F and J through the nose). The few times I've flown this route, J is at least 50% load and Y is at least 80%.

The fact that JFK is now 3x nonstop daily on CX (rumor to be 4x soon to EWR) and still kept the HKG-YVR-JFK tag shows that it's sustainable on its own.
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19065
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: How Is UA's HKG-SIN/SGN Doing?

Wed Dec 21, 2011 9:38 pm

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 32):
Can't speak for SQ or KL but CX definitely makes a crap load on YVR-JFK. The route is void of any meaningful competition (in the winter months, it's either AC A319 or CX 77W), and they have full 5th freedom rights on it.

But CX schedules are unattractive for the local market (redeye eastbound and arriving YVR at 1 AM westbound). And since they don't use pre-clearance, YVR-originating passengers have to deal with potential long customs/immigration lines at JFK along with all the HKG-originating passengers. And most local passengers YVR-NYC prefer LGA or EWR. There's plenty of competition to LGA/EWR with connections at other hubs, e.g. YYZ/ORD/MSP. Oneworld also doesn't have a strong frequent flyer base in Canada.
 
mogandoCI
Posts: 1247
Joined: Thu Jun 04, 2009 2:39 pm

RE: How Is UA's HKG-SIN/SGN Doing?

Wed Dec 21, 2011 10:04 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 33):
But CX schedules are unattractive for the local market (redeye eastbound and arriving YVR at 1 AM westbound). And since they don't use pre-clearance, YVR-originating passengers have to deal with potential long customs/immigration lines at JFK along with all the HKG-originating passengers. And most local passengers YVR-NYC prefer LGA or EWR. There's plenty of competition to LGA/EWR with connections at other hubs, e.g. YYZ/ORD/MSP. Oneworld also doesn't have a strong frequent flyer base in Canada.

The flight has nothing to do with oneworld FF base, but loyalty to CX from Chinese passengers (which account for 25-30% of Vancouver's population) as well as preference to fly an Asian carrier on WB over any of the US carriers in NB or RJ. It's not like AC's departure is that attractive either : 7am out of EWR.

By the time you factor in the connections, you'll waste nearly 9 hours on a segment that's shorter than SFO or LAX.
 
johnclipper
Posts: 466
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 5:44 am

RE: How Is UA's HKG-SIN/SGN Doing?

Thu Dec 22, 2011 2:00 pm

The HKG-SIN and HKG-SGN are not showing up on UA website or timetable. Is it a glitch or did they drop service?
"Flown every aircraft since the Wright Flyer" (guys, if you take this literally, then you need to get a life...)
 
Rdh3e
Posts: 2827
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:09 pm

RE: How Is UA's HKG-SIN/SGN Doing?

Thu Dec 22, 2011 2:59 pm

Quoting JohnClipper (Reply 35):
The HKG-SIN and HKG-SGN are not showing up on UA website or timetable. Is it a glitch or did they drop service?

Look at Continental.
 
johnclipper
Posts: 466
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 5:44 am

RE: How Is UA's HKG-SIN/SGN Doing?

Thu Dec 22, 2011 3:20 pm

I looked on the Star Alliance timetable and CO.com...nothing...all bookings route me from HKG-NRT-SIN...
"Flown every aircraft since the Wright Flyer" (guys, if you take this literally, then you need to get a life...)
 
mogandoCI
Posts: 1247
Joined: Thu Jun 04, 2009 2:39 pm

RE: How Is UA's HKG-SIN/SGN Doing?

Thu Dec 22, 2011 3:30 pm

Quoting JohnClipper (Reply 37):

I looked on the Star Alliance timetable and CO.com...nothing...all bookings route me from HKG-NRT-SIN...

Perfect for those trying to do a mileage run.
 
Rdh3e
Posts: 2827
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:09 pm

RE: How Is UA's HKG-SIN/SGN Doing?

Thu Dec 22, 2011 4:34 pm

Quoting JohnClipper (Reply 37):
I looked on the Star Alliance timetable and CO.com...nothing...all bookings route me from HKG-NRT-SIN...

It shows up for me. I just did a RT from SIN-HKG for this weekend. I think there are Day of Week variances, in there, but it also showed up for me in mid january, but not on some days.
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19065
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: How Is UA's HKG-SIN/SGN Doing?

Thu Dec 22, 2011 9:14 pm

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 34):
It's not like AC's departure is that attractive either : 7am out of EWR.

AC's EWR-YVR-EWR schedule is to maximize connectivity at YVR to/from Asia. It's also good for the Alaska cruise traffic, an important market during the summer.
 
quiet1
Posts: 283
Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2010 7:39 am

RE: How Is UA's HKG-SIN/SGN Doing?

Thu Dec 22, 2011 10:44 pm

Quoting huaiwei (Reply 25):
Who cares if your BA is not going to pamper passengers flying F in domestic UK short hops, when we are talking about an international five hour journey on the SIN-HKG sector where comfort certainly counts?

Really? I thought it was less than four hours.
 
johnclipper
Posts: 466
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 5:44 am

RE: How Is UA's HKG-SIN/SGN Doing?

Thu Dec 22, 2011 11:31 pm

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 38):
Perfect for those trying to do a mileage run.

Ha! Not for US$4,000!
"Flown every aircraft since the Wright Flyer" (guys, if you take this literally, then you need to get a life...)
 
VC10er
Posts: 2234
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 6:25 am

RE: How Is UA's HKG-SIN/SGN Doing?

Fri Dec 23, 2011 1:29 am

Quoting United Airline (Reply 5):

I find the United First Class international lounge to be wonderful - except for the ONE broken chase lounge chair. Have they fixed that ONE chair?
Also, those of us who wish to fly ORD to HKG then onto SIN, cannot fly the 737. Sorry!

So I must re route on UA to SIN. If I'm in paid First, what is the right route from NYC?
The world is missing love, let's use our flights to spread it!
 
LAXintl
Posts: 20183
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

RE: How Is UA's HKG-SIN/SGN Doing?

Fri Dec 23, 2011 1:44 am

Fly XXX-NRT-SIN.

NRT-SIN is a 744 this winter.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
stratacruiser
Posts: 197
Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2011 7:07 pm

RE: How Is UA's HKG-SIN/SGN Doing?

Fri Dec 23, 2011 2:34 am

When I last flew CO99 EWR - HKG about a month ago it had a SIN extension in the form of the CO 738 that replaced the UA 744. On the day I flew (11/13), 99 was three hours late into HKG, so next leg 99 had already left. It appeared that the aircraft made a daily SIN - HKG - NRT - HKG - SIN rotation.

Dave
 
United1
Posts: 2878
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 9:21 am

RE: How Is UA's HKG-SIN/SGN Doing?

Fri Dec 23, 2011 2:51 am

Quoting Stratacruiser (Reply 45):
It appeared that the aircraft made a daily SIN - HKG - NRT - HKG - SIN rotation.

If I remember right one aircraft does GUM-HKG-SGN-HKG-GUM and the other NRT-HKG-SIN-HKG-NRT.
I know the voices in my head aren't real but sometimes their ideas are just awesome!!!
 
mogandoCI
Posts: 1247
Joined: Thu Jun 04, 2009 2:39 pm

RE: How Is UA's HKG-SIN/SGN Doing?

Fri Dec 23, 2011 2:43 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 40):
AC's EWR-YVR-EWR schedule is to maximize connectivity at YVR to/from Asia. It's also good for the Alaska cruise traffic, an important market during the summer.

If AC weren't routinely quoting USD 750 for that 4.5 hour flight I might consider flying them.
 
Rdh3e
Posts: 2827
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:09 pm

RE: How Is UA's HKG-SIN/SGN Doing?

Fri Dec 23, 2011 3:15 pm

Quoting VC10er (Reply 43):
So I must re route on UA to SIN. If I'm in paid First, what is the right route from NYC?

Probably NRT, you'll be in International first the whole way. Even though it is a touch longer. But I suppose you get more miles....

NRT-SIN,+EWR-HKG-SIN" target="_blank">http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=EWR-NRT-SIN,+EWR-HKG-SIN
 
United Airline
Topic Author
Posts: 8773
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:24 pm

RE: How Is UA's HKG-SIN/SGN Doing?

Sat Dec 24, 2011 4:26 am

How long does it take to fly from NRT to SIN?