HAL
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FAA Pilot Fatigue Rules To Be Announced 12/21/11

Wed Dec 21, 2011 1:49 am

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-1...ow-u-s-agency-says.html?cmpid=yhoo

Finally - we'll see how much pressure the industry was able to bring against the common-sense fatigue rules. Any guesses ahead of time?

HAL
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Boeing727
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RE: FAA Pilot Fatigue Rules To Be Announced 12/21/11

Wed Dec 21, 2011 1:53 am

So, what is going to happen to the cargo folks I wonder?

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RE: FAA Pilot Fatigue Rules To Be Announced 12/21/11

Wed Dec 21, 2011 2:02 am

Quoting HAL (Thread starter):
Finally - we'll see how much pressure the industry was able to bring against the common-sense fatigue rules. Any guesses ahead of time?

HAL

I guess we ain't gonna like it. While I am all for better rest rules I am not for working up to 10 hours unaugmented. I have zero faith in the government to not bungle anything at this point.
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PITrules
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RE: FAA Pilot Fatigue Rules To Be Announced 12/21/11

Wed Dec 21, 2011 2:26 am

Quoting HAL (Thread starter):
Finally - we'll see how much pressure the industry was able to bring against the common-sense fatigue rules. Any guesses ahead of time?
Quoting boeing727 (Reply 1):
So, what is going to happen to the cargo folks I wonder?

Here is a very good article in the Louisville paper, home of the UPS Worldport

http://www.courier-journal.com/artic...S?odyssey=mod|newswell|text|Home|p


Some of the comments made by UPS would be laughable, if the company wasn't so powerful at lobbying the gov't.


"UPS has argued it’s wrong to apply one-size-fits-all rules to cargo and passenger carriers because they are so different — with cargo planes flying mostly at night while passenger flights are largely daytime and put so many more lives into the air."

Yes, who cares about the lives of the crew or people on the ground.


"UPS says its 2,600 pilots have gotten used to flying at night and sleeping by day"


"The night-time restrictions would particularly affect UPS, the company said — causing it to have to hire extra pilots and install new sleeping facilities on some planes"

Current rest facilities on UPS 767s, required on flights with a 3rd crewmember (over 8 hours) consist of a jumpseat. Or the floor. They already bought off their local FAA office on this one, while other carriers provide more adequate quarters such as a crew bunk or business class style seat.

This from a company making almost $5 billion per year.
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RE: FAA Pilot Fatigue Rules To Be Announced 12/21/11

Wed Dec 21, 2011 4:17 pm

http://travel.usatoday.com/flights/p...-at-tired-airline-pilots-/589727/1

And another summary:
Quoting PITrules (Reply 3):
This from a company making almost $5 billion per year.
I thought most of their profit was ground ops?

Any which way, this is an improvement. Ideal?    But certainly an improvement.

Lightsaber
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RE: FAA Pilot Fatigue Rules To Be Announced 12/21/11

Wed Dec 21, 2011 5:00 pm

Quoting HAL (Thread starter):
Finally - we'll see how much pressure the industry was able to bring against the common-sense fatigue rules.

Yes, it all the evil industries fault.   

Will it also put responsibility on the trans-con commuter pilot? Will it force them to get a good nights rest on the day before their trip? Or will it allow them to continue to sleep on a red-eye or in the noisy crew room, only to report later that day?

There's responsibility on both sides of this issue.
 
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RE: FAA Pilot Fatigue Rules To Be Announced 12/21/11

Wed Dec 21, 2011 5:35 pm

Quoting TOLtommy (Reply 5):
Will it also put responsibility on the trans-con commuter pilot? Will it force them to get a good nights rest on the day before their trip?

What's the difference between them and pilot who spends all day doing something with their kids and spouse before an 8PM report time to fly to South America?

You can't control off-duty activities other than alcohol restrictions xx hours prior to flying.
 
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RE: FAA Pilot Fatigue Rules To Be Announced 12/21/11

Wed Dec 21, 2011 5:48 pm

Quoting TOLtommy (Reply 5):
Will it also put responsibility on the trans-con commuter pilot? Will it force them to get a good nights rest on the day before their trip? Or will it allow them to continue to sleep on a red-eye or in the noisy crew room, only to report later that day?

That's a very good question and a key point in the Colgan incident. IIRC, the co-pilot lived in Washington state and commuted to her domicile in Newark. She had spent the entire night before commuting on a cargo carrier from her home on the west coast to Newark and then ended up sleeping in the break room at EWR until her first flight on the morning of the incident. How are they going to legislate their way around this one?

Flying hours themselves are a very small facet of this issue.

Quoting GoBoeing (Reply 6):
You can't control off-duty activities other than alcohol restrictions xx hours prior to flying.

I agree, but that's the point here. The government is citing Colgan as the reason for these new laws when these laws wouldn't have prevented Colgan from happening in the first place.
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HAL
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RE: FAA Pilot Fatigue Rules To Be Announced 12/21/11

Wed Dec 21, 2011 6:06 pm

The rules are out: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-1...-cargo-carriers-1-.html?cmpid=yhoo

Unfortunately, the FAA exempted cargo airlines from the rules. I guess the pilots of those planes and the people underneath them aren't worth as much as the crews & passengers of regular airliners. Look at the article; the cargo airlines complain about the 'high cost' and burden if the rules had been applied to them. Since the cargo airlines are by far the most profitable in the industry, it's obvious that it was just political pressure to keep those profits, not an actual danger of going bankrupt that prevented them from having the rules applied to them too.

Quoting TOLtommy (Reply 5):
Yes, it all the evil industries fault.

Will it also put responsibility on the trans-con commuter pilot? Will it force them to get a good nights rest on the day before their trip? Or will it allow them to continue to sleep on a red-eye or in the noisy crew room, only to report later that day?

There's responsibility on both sides of this issue.

I never said there wasn't responsibility. In fact, we have a huge responsibility to arrive rested at the beginning of our trips. This legislation is all about what happens after that point, since the scheduling of rest periods between flights is something the pilots don't control.

The problem of commuting pilots being fatigued is real, as evidenced by the Colgan crash. It is, however, a problem that the vast majority of pilots avoid by arriving well before a trip. Remember, it's our butts in the seats too, as well as the passengers. We don't have a death wish, and want to get back to our families just as much as the passengers do. The Colgan crash was a warning to the few who pushed the envelope, as well as those of us who can keep an eye on our co-workers for signs of fatigue.

You have to realize though, that the airline that opens & closes pilot bases every six months is responsible too, as no pilot can afford to move that often. Sometimes commuting is the only option short of bankruptcy. Given the low pay many regional pilots make, even living in a low-cost location and commuting puts them close to the poverty level. Now, don't reply to that statement with something like 'they chose that career'. Yes, we did. And we know the reality of beginning pilot pay. We're not complaining - only stating the practical results of how we have to live under those conditions.

Commuting is unavoidable for some pilots, and a choice for others. For me personally, I've never seen an abuse of commuting in all my years in this industry. If I did, I'd make sure it stopped. With the new rules, we as passenger pilots can be assured we'll have a better chance of arriving at our flights in the middle of the trips more rested than before. Now, we need to see if we can include all pilots in these common-sense regulations.

HAL
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RE: FAA Pilot Fatigue Rules To Be Announced 12/21/11

Wed Dec 21, 2011 6:09 pm

Quoting TOLtommy (Reply 5):
There's responsibility on both sides of this issue.

The pilot ALWAYS had a ton of responsibility. A couple screw up and the government thinks it has to take action to make itself look good.


These rules do nothing to prevent another Buffalo Colgan commuting scenario and someone in one of the press releases even says it. A pilot is supposed to be responsible enough to show up to work well rested.

This is government and media overreaction. There are a couple good things in the rule, but overall its just a show for the public.
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RE: FAA Pilot Fatigue Rules To Be Announced 12/21/11

Wed Dec 21, 2011 6:20 pm

Quoting 777STL (Reply 7):

That's a very good question and a key point in the Colgan incident. IIRC, the co-pilot lived in Washington state and commuted to her domicile in Newark. She had spent the entire night before commuting on a cargo carrier from her home on the west coast to Newark and then ended up sleeping in the break room at EWR until her first flight on the morning of the incident. How are they going to legislate their way around this one?

They seem to be trying to target this with the "fit for duty" rule. However, as I argued on my blog, the rule doesn't have any teeth and will pretty much be irrelevant.

That said, tackling flying hours is a start, and it is certainly better than nothing being done at all...
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RE: FAA Pilot Fatigue Rules To Be Announced 12/21/11

Wed Dec 21, 2011 6:38 pm

Quoting HAL (Reply 8):
For me personally, I've never seen an abuse of commuting in all my years in this industry. If I did, I'd make sure it stopped

Yeah? What would you do? Specifics please
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apodino
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RE: FAA Pilot Fatigue Rules To Be Announced 12/21/11

Wed Dec 21, 2011 6:42 pm

Would these rules have prevented Colgan from happening? Probably not. However, does that mean they should be implemented? Absolutely. The issue is what happens when pilots have actually started their trip. Do you want your pilot to be flying his seventh leg on your flight at 8 pm when he came on duty at 6 am? Just the amount of cycles flown in that time (and there are airlines that will schedule crews this way) will wear out even the most seasoned pilots.

What has happened in recent years is that regional airlines have scheduled their crews to the absolute max, and it has caused a lot of problems. People forget about the Mesa plane in Hawaii that overflew its destination when the pilot fell asleep. At the time, the way Mesa was scheduling crews was insane. And the thing that irks me is that Crew Schedulers often have no knowledge of aviation, and they firmly believe that if its legal its safe, insisting on getting a Chief Pilot involved when a person calls fatigue. This is exactly what led to the Shuttle America 170 incident in CLE. These are two incidents that while they weren't fatal, could have been prevented with these new rules. Dispatchers are not allowed to be scheduled for over 10 hours of duty, there is no reason pilots should be either in my opinion.

As for the Cargo carriers, I think the FAA is making a mistake by exempting them, but I do think there should have been slight differences to reflect the nature of cargo flying.
 
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RE: FAA Pilot Fatigue Rules To Be Announced 12/21/11

Wed Dec 21, 2011 6:56 pm

Quoting apodino (Reply 12):
Would these rules have prevented Colgan from happening? Probably not. However, does that mean they should be implemented? Absolutely

Exactly. Even if the new rules don't really address the Colgan crash that got the ball rolling on this, at first glance these new rules seem to be an improvement (safety wise) in almost all areas.

How these rules will actually effect schedules and company work rules of course remains to be seen.
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RE: FAA Pilot Fatigue Rules To Be Announced 12/21/11

Wed Dec 21, 2011 7:07 pm

Heck, all I know is that when I read the synopsis on the FAA's website, I couldn't believe it. For those of us in supplementals, it was like hitting the lottery. No more 16 hour duty days (let alone 19). No more 8 hours from when I walk off the plane to when I walk back on. 8 real hours behind a hotel room door! No more being on 1 1/2 hour call out 24 hours a day, 6 days in a row.

We were expecting the worst and came up with the best (if they stay intact). I do wonder, though, why cargo was exempted. I completely disagree with that one.

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RE: FAA Pilot Fatigue Rules To Be Announced 12/21/11

Wed Dec 21, 2011 10:02 pm

This is a home run! Finally ends the blantant unsafe scheduling at many of the airlines (especially the regionals)
 
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RE: FAA Pilot Fatigue Rules To Be Announced 12/21/11

Wed Dec 21, 2011 10:22 pm

The most annoying part of this whole thing is that the revenue and profits being earned by the front line employees are being put in to the company coffers and being used directly against those who worked for the revenue. That's how the companies pay for lobbyists.

It's so obvious to see how the NPRM that came out last year has been completely watered down in favor of the Company lobbyists. As ever in Washington, money talks.

Safety first, after money.
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Mir
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RE: FAA Pilot Fatigue Rules To Be Announced 12/21/11

Wed Dec 21, 2011 10:22 pm

Quoting seven3seven (Reply 9):
There are a couple good things in the rule, but overall its just a show for the public.

I wouldn't call a requirement for the opportunity to get eight hours sleep a show (though I think it might be a bit unrealistic if you've only got 10 hour overnights). Nor would I call reduced duty days for increased number of legs a show. Yeah, the whole "fitness for duty" thing is a facade without much behind it, but there's a lot of good stuff in the new rules. It's just a shame it'll take two years to fully implement - we need these tomorrow.

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RE: FAA Pilot Fatigue Rules To Be Announced 12/21/11

Wed Dec 21, 2011 10:27 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 17):
It's just a shame it'll take two years to fully implement - we need these tomorrow.

Agreed. I would've been ok with a 6-12 month implementation. They aren't that drastic of a change. I'm almost betting most companies won't even start to think about the implications and an implementation plan until this time next year.
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Grid
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RE: FAA Pilot Fatigue Rules To Be Announced 12/21/11

Wed Dec 21, 2011 10:33 pm

Quoting GoBoeing (Reply 6):
What's the difference between them and pilot who spends all day doing something with their kids and spouse before an 8PM report time to fly to South America?

You can't control off-duty activities other than alcohol restrictions xx hours prior to flying.

But you can. You could say a pilot cannot commute X number of hours if he or she will be in charge of a plane within X hours after commute. You can control off-duty activities somewhat.


On an irrelevant note, what are the rules for private jets? What do pilots flying a Gulfstream from New York to Beijing do? They carry a relief pilot?
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HAL
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RE: FAA Pilot Fatigue Rules To Be Announced 12/21/11

Wed Dec 21, 2011 10:51 pm

Quoting seven3seven (Reply 11):
Quoting HAL (Reply 8): For me personally, I've never seen an abuse of commuting in all my years in this industry. If I did, I'd make sure it stopped
Yeah? What would you do? Specifics please

I'd do the same thing for any pilot not safe to work; tell them what I see, and suggest they call in sick. Same goes for someone I suspect may be over the legal alcohol limit. If they're not safe, tell them. It's amazing what will happen when someone else points out things like this, as the veil of self-denial is removed. If they refuse (especially in the alcohol case), there's more that can be done too, from bringing in other pilots, to calling the chief pilot.

Quoting Grid (Reply 19):
Quoting GoBoeing (Reply 6):What's the difference between them and pilot who spends all day doing something with their kids and spouse before an 8PM report time to fly to South America?

You can't control off-duty activities other than alcohol restrictions xx hours prior to flying.

But you can. You could say a pilot cannot commute X number of hours if he or she will be in charge of a plane within X hours after commute. You can control off-duty activities somewhat.

What would you do with a pilot that lives five hours away by car, with a 7am show time? Are they not allowed to drive to work, since they'll have been commuting for many hours, and doing all that starting at 2am? What about the pilot that lives a 30 minute flight away? Are they not allowed to commute in the day of a flight? Which would be more restful for the pilot - the 5-hour drive, or 30 minute flight? That's why the government has wisely decided not to regulate commuting, because there's way too much variability in what constitutes commuting. The pilots do a good job of policing themselves. These rules are aimed at the working schedule, not the pre-work schedule.

HAL
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Grid
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RE: FAA Pilot Fatigue Rules To Be Announced 12/21/11

Wed Dec 21, 2011 11:08 pm

Quoting HAL (Reply 20):
What would you do with a pilot that lives five hours away by car, with a 7am show time? Are they not allowed to drive to work, since they'll have been commuting for many hours, and doing all that starting at 2am? What about the pilot that lives a 30 minute flight away? Are they not allowed to commute in the day of a flight? Which would be more restful for the pilot - the 5-hour drive, or 30 minute flight? That's why the government has wisely decided not to regulate commuting, because there's way too much variability in what constitutes commuting. The pilots do a good job of policing themselves. These rules are aimed at the working schedule, not the pre-work schedule.

I don't have all the answers, I was just pointing out that you can regulate that. I'd probably wonder why the airline has a pilot who lives five hours away and needs to start working at 7 a.m.

The government regulates many things are way more complicated than people flying to work. And while there may be a wide variance in what constitutes commuting, you can easily define it and impose restrictions.
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RE: FAA Pilot Fatigue Rules To Be Announced 12/21/11

Thu Dec 22, 2011 12:38 am

Quoting Grid (Reply 21):
you can easily define it and impose restrictions.

Because the government trying to make a blanket definition then impose regulations that make things easier never causes more problems than it solves.  
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fxra
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RE: FAA Pilot Fatigue Rules To Be Announced 12/21/11

Thu Dec 22, 2011 12:46 am

Quoting PITrules (Reply 3):
"UPS says its 2,600 pilots have gotten used to flying at night and sleeping by day"

This statement was amde by someone who works a 9-5 day shift, with a required hour lunch away form the desk. I'e been working midnights/overnight shifts for most my adult life. It was a lot easier to do at 25 than at 35. It wears one down, and virtually impossible to not try to have a life during day hours on off days. Add a pilots life of corssing multiple times zones, sleeping in thin walled hotels, interrupting phone calls (usually form scheduling)... you can be dead tired trying to land in the 3 not crosswind on a short wet runway.

Ad if you call in and use the "F" word, you get an immediate sob story how the packages are gonna be late, or passengers inconvenienced. I've heard chief pilots pointing out that this is a high revenue flight and there's no back up crew, are you sure you're fatigued?? But, on the otherside of the spectrum... I'm heard pilots agree to push limits for an extra few thousand $$$.

Quoting Grid (Reply 21):
I don't have all the answers, I was just pointing out that you can regulate that. I'd probably wonder why the airline has a pilot who lives five hours away and needs to start working at 7 a.m.

You can't legislate good sense (especially since most the legislators lack a firm base in reality). All you can do is protect a crew member who exercises his good judgement.

I honestly think the cargo sector needs new duty regs. Same as the passenger haulers?? Maybe not. But in the last recurrent session I went through, we were told how bad for our bodies working all night is, how unnatural it is, and how we should be aware of our level of tiredness. All part of a new fatigue mitigation program... that tells us its bad and you're gonna be tired and you can call fatigue, but please don't unless we have ample reserve pilots staffing at your location.

And the worst unaddressed sector.. maintenance. A mechanical can work unlimited hours repairing an airplane. That needs to be addressed IMHO.
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RE: FAA Pilot Fatigue Rules To Be Announced 12/21/11

Thu Dec 22, 2011 12:57 am

Quoting futureualpilot (Reply 22):
Because the government trying to make a blanket definition then impose regulations that make things easier never causes more problems than it solves.

Blanket definition? And I'm not sure the purpose of the regulation would be to make things easier, though hopefully that would come out of it, but rather make things safer.

Quoting fxra (Reply 23):
You can't legislate good sense (especially since most the legislators lack a firm base in reality). All you can do is protect a crew member who exercises his good judgement.

I won't argue with that.
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RE: FAA Pilot Fatigue Rules To Be Announced 12/21/11

Thu Dec 22, 2011 1:01 am

Quoting thrufru (Reply 14):
We were expecting the worst and came up with the best (if they stay intact). I do wonder, though, why cargo was exempted. I completely disagree with that one.

It was exempted because of heavy lobbying by the freight companies. It's really a shame that they threw away this opportunity to really make things a little more sensible when it comes to rest rules. The big problem here that was pretty much ignored is the 121 Supplemental carrier rest rules, that is what most, if not all cargo carriers operate under. Domestic, they are pretty much the same as your regular everyday pax airlines. International? Forget about it. No duty day limit. You just can't fly over 12 hours in a 24 hour period on the equipment I fly.

Unfortunately because of this decision, at some point in the future, something will happen to a freighter that could have been avoided by better rest rules. Everyone responsible for the cargo exemption will have blood on their hands because they said a pilots safety wasn't worth a damn as long as their freight moved without them having to hire more pilots or install better facilities on an airplane.

Quoting thrufru (Reply 14):

Heck, all I know is that when I read the synopsis on the FAA's website, I couldn't believe it. For those of us in supplementals, it was like hitting the lottery. No more 16 hour duty days (let alone 19). No more 8 hours from when I walk off the plane to when I walk back on. 8 real hours behind a hotel room door! No more being on 1 1/2 hour call out 24 hours a day, 6 days in a row.

We were expecting the worst and came up with the best (if they stay intact). I do wonder, though, why cargo was exempted. I completely disagree with that one.

All pilots, all operations, one set of rules.

Those have been my exact thoughts over the last year or so, I was really looking forward to the new rules, nothing but a let down.
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Mir
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RE: FAA Pilot Fatigue Rules To Be Announced 12/21/11

Thu Dec 22, 2011 3:03 am

Quoting Grid (Reply 19):
On an irrelevant note, what are the rules for private jets? What do pilots flying a Gulfstream from New York to Beijing do? They carry a relief pilot?

If it's strictly a private aircraft, there are no rest rules. However, most companies that fly those sorts of aircraft have policies that specify what sort of rest the pilots need to have, and how many pilots need to be on flights of a certain length.

In the charter world, the maximum duty time is a blanket 14 hours, with a maximum of 10 hours flight time (which can be extended due to circumstances beyond the crew's control - i.e. enroute weather or ATC delays). If the time is extended, then extra rest between duty periods is required - normally it's 10 hours.

-Mir
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RE: FAA Pilot Fatigue Rules To Be Announced 12/21/11

Thu Dec 22, 2011 3:04 am

The new rules are perhaps more convoluted than they need to be.  We should have expected that as any part of a package that would be acceptable to pilots, regulators, and the airline industry together.  It was going to be a compromise.  

But on the whole I'm impressed.  
 
Perhaps the most important and welcome change is the one stipulating that pilots must now receive a minimum 10-hour rest period between assignments (i.e. workdays), with an opportunity for at least eight hours of uninterrupted sleep.
 
Until now, not only have rest periods been reduceable to as little as eight hours, but the very definition of “rest” itself has failed to account for things like travel time to and from hotels, the need for meals, and so on.  A pilot is considered off-duty and resting shortly after his final flight of the day shuts down at the gate.  With paperwork and other duties to attend to, the rest clock is often ticking while he is still at the airport -- sometimes still on the plane.  And it stops ticking not when he checks out of the room, but when he arrives again at the airport.
 
For instance, if a crew signs off in Chicago at 9 p.m. and is scheduled to sign on again at 5 a.m., that constitutes an eight-hour rest period.  But then you start subtracting the time spent waiting for the hotel van, driving to and from the airport, scrounging for food and so on.  What existed on paper as an eight hour layover was in reality only six or seven hours at the hotel, and four or five hours of actual sleep.
 
Finally this will change.  Rest is actual rest, and not merely time away from the airplane.  

This provision was long overdue, but nonetheless is one of the smartest things the FAA has ever done.
 
This will be particularly beneficial for regional airline pilots.  Collective bargaining agreements at most of the majors already include such provisions.  But now it’s the law and * all * commercial passenger carriers must follow it.
 
Meanwhile, in my opinion, too much of the FAA's focus has been on long-haul flying.  The circadian-scrambling effects of a 12 or 14-hour nonstop are indeed of concern.  But it's also true that long-haul fatigue is comparatively easy to manage.  These flights carry augmented crews with comfortable on-board rest facilities.  Layovers are a minimum 12-hours long at luxurious hotels.  The more serious problem is at the other end of the spectrum: short-haul regional flying.  Regional pilots fly punishing schedules, operating multiple legs in an out of busy airports, often in the worst weather, with short layovers at dodgy motels.   I have flown regional routes, back-of-the-clock cargo, ordinary domestic, and, more recently, long-haul international.  In terms of fatigue, that list is in descending order.  The latter two are by far the easiest and most civilized.  Sure it messes up your circadian cycles, but I'll take a 12-hour red-eye ocean crossing followed by 72 hours at the Marriott any day over having to wake up at 4 a.m., fly six legs in a turboprop, with eight hours of supposed rest at the Holiday Inn Express before having to do it all over again.
 


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FoxHunter
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RE: FAA Pilot Fatigue Rules To Be Announced 12/21/11

Thu Dec 22, 2011 3:10 am

I've been an airline pilot for a little over 42 years with 10 more months to my forced retirement. The cut out of Cargo was not unexpected. When TCAS was first required, Cargo aircraft were exempted. I flew the MD11 into most of the major airports around the USA and the world without the benefit of TCAS. Then there was a midair over India between a Russian cargo aircraft and a Saudia 747 with the loss of all aboard both aircraft. Funny, soon after that all our aircraft had TCAS.

Studies have shown that pilot fatigue can equal 3 to 4 beers. The only difference in safety is the pilots that drank 3to 4 beers just prior to take off will be safer, sober by the time of landing. For the tired pilot it will only get worse. Please don't try to say the pilot should make sure he/she gets the necessary rest. The human body does not work that way. Even if you can always get to sleep it is not that unusual to have house keeping or the front desk or another guest being connected with your room at 4:00pm waking you from a sound sleep when you have to fly all night.

The cargo cutout will be corrected soon after 300 people are killed as a result of crew fatigue on a cargo aircraft. You have to understand that is the way the FAA and Congress works.  
 
737tanker
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RE: FAA Pilot Fatigue Rules To Be Announced 12/21/11

Thu Dec 22, 2011 3:26 am

Quoting Grid (Reply 21):
I'd probably wonder why the airline has a pilot who lives five hours away and needs to start working at 7 a.m.

The airline has a pilot who lives 5 hours away because the airline closed, or reduced the staffing, of the base that he lived 30 minutes from. Also the pilot can't afford to sell his house for a loss or have his wife give up her job and move the family. As for him starting at 7 am that is because he doesn't have the seniority to hold the 1 pm start.
 
Grid
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RE: FAA Pilot Fatigue Rules To Be Announced 12/21/11

Thu Dec 22, 2011 4:26 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 26):
Quoting Grid (Reply 19):
On an irrelevant note, what are the rules for private jets? What do pilots flying a Gulfstream from New York to Beijing do? They carry a relief pilot?

If it's strictly a private aircraft, there are no rest rules. However, most companies that fly those sorts of aircraft have policies that specify what sort of rest the pilots need to have, and how many pilots need to be on flights of a certain length.

Interesting. Do they crew rest areas or what would a relief pilot do?
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coronado
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RE: FAA Pilot Fatigue Rules To Be Announced 12/21/11

Thu Dec 22, 2011 4:41 am

I think this is going to further hurt some of the regional flights to smaller towns including EAS towns. Right now at CMX we have a United (Skywest) CR2 arriving from ORD at 11:48pm, doing a RON (rest overnight) , and then the same crew after spending a few hours resting at a local hotel, takes the same airplane out the next morning at 5:50 am back to ORD. Am I correct in interpreting these new rules as requiring that crew to going forward get a full 8 hours rest, so that after allowing for 1/2 hour-45 minutes to button up the plane in the evening and get things going again the next morning that the 11:48pm arrival could really not turn around and leave the next day until about 9: or 9:30 am?

If this is the case it is really going to hurt the practice of doing an RON at some of the smaller stations. Skywest is certainly not going to start having additional crews spend a day hanging out resting at a hotel near CMX waiting to take the morning flight out. In any case it seems to have the effect of cutting out about 4 hours from the flying (billable) hours that CRJ will be able to operate each day.
The Original Coronado: First CV jet flights RG CV 990 July 1965; DL CV 880 July 1965; Spantax CV990 Feb 1973
 
DashTrash
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RE: FAA Pilot Fatigue Rules To Be Announced 12/21/11

Thu Dec 22, 2011 4:45 am

Quoting apodino (Reply 12):
As for the Cargo carriers, I think the FAA is making a mistake by exempting them, but I do think there should have been slight differences to reflect the nature of cargo flying.

Nope. One level of safety. A 747 hauling adjustable bodies flies exactly the same as one hauling boxes.

Quoting Grid (Reply 19):
But you can. You could say a pilot cannot commute X number of hours if he or she will be in charge of a plane within X hours after commute. You can control off-duty activities somewhat.

How much more control over my life am I supposed to give the goons?

Quoting tb727 (Reply 25):
It was exempted because of heavy lobbying by the freight companies.

Bingo. FAA = Federally Aiding Airlines.

Quoting 737tanker (Reply 29):
The airline has a pilot who lives 5 hours away because the airline closed, or reduced the staffing, of the base that he lived 30 minutes from. Also the pilot can't afford to sell his house for a loss or have his wife give up her job and move the family. As for him starting at 7 am that is because he doesn't have the seniority to hold the 1 pm start.

You hit the nail on the head. In the time I spent at the regionals, the company closed JAX, TPA, LGA, ORF / PHF, CLT, SYR, reopened SYR and LGA, re-closed SYR, then re-closed LGA. How in the F word is a pilot NOT supposed to commute with this sort of crap?

I'm a little dismayed to see AM / PM shifts NOT addressed in the new rules. Nothing worse than starting day 1 at 1700, the starting day 3 at 0500. Would also love to see some better language about days off. 1 day off for each duty day seems about right. I know my last year at the airline I'd fly a 3 day followed by a 2 day, then have 3 off if I was lucky. Neither of those trips would be commutable, so I'd end up with 2 nights at home. The first day was spent sleeping, day 2 at home was laundry, pack again, some housework and then out the door again to commute on a day off.

Man I hated that job.....
 
loggat
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RE: FAA Pilot Fatigue Rules To Be Announced 12/21/11

Thu Dec 22, 2011 2:36 pm

Quoting Coronado (Reply 31):
I think this is going to further hurt some of the regional flights to smaller towns including EAS towns. Right now at CMX we have a United (Skywest) CR2 arriving from ORD at 11:48pm, doing a RON (rest overnight) , and then the same crew after spending a few hours resting at a local hotel, takes the same airplane out the next morning at 5:50 am back to ORD. Am I correct in interpreting these new rules as requiring that crew to going forward get a full 8 hours rest, so that after allowing for 1/2 hour-45 minutes to button up the plane in the evening and get things going again the next morning that the 11:48pm arrival could really not turn around and leave the next day until about 9: or 9:30 am?

If this is the case it is really going to hurt the practice of doing an RON at some of the smaller stations. Skywest is certainly not going to start having additional crews spend a day hanging out resting at a hotel near CMX waiting to take the morning flight out. In any case it seems to have the effect of cutting out about 4 hours from the flying (billable) hours that CRJ will be able to operate each day.

Check out the new section on split-duty limits. There needs to be at least a 3 hour rest period and as long as the combined time of the rest and flight duty do not exceed 14 hours, then it seems to be legal. Doesn't look like it would effect the scheduling of your RON.
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jfklganyc
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RE: FAA Pilot Fatigue Rules To Be Announced 12/21/11

Thu Dec 22, 2011 4:45 pm

As I said earlier, I like the new rules

10 hours of rest! Finally! If they did nothing else, that would be a big improvement.

But why has it taken this long, and why is it 2 years away? That is my biggest issue.


As for the UPS gripe above...I will say this. You applied for and took a job at an overnight delivery service.

I can bid the larger aircraft at my company and make more $$, but I chose not to becuase I am going to have a lot of redeye and weekend flying.

Regulations to protect us are nice, but we can not forget that we control a lot of our own destiny. If you have a coveted position at UPS or Fed Ex (you can't get these jobs) you knew what you were signing up for when you got the job.
 
slider
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RE: FAA Pilot Fatigue Rules To Be Announced 12/21/11

Thu Dec 22, 2011 4:47 pm

Stand-up overnights were not eliminated either, correct?

Unbelievable.
 
silentbob
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RE: FAA Pilot Fatigue Rules To Be Announced 12/21/11

Thu Dec 22, 2011 5:07 pm

Quoting DashTrash (Reply 32):
. Nothing worse than starting day 1 at 1700, the starting day 3 at 0500.

I know a lot of commuters that want schedules like that. They save money on hotels and spend more days at home.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: FAA Pilot Fatigue Rules To Be Announced 12/21/11

Thu Dec 22, 2011 5:20 pm

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 34):
As I said earlier, I like the new rules

10 hours of rest! Finally! If they did nothing else, that would be a big improvement.

But why has it taken this long, and why is it 2 years away? That is my biggest issue.

Add why wasn't cargo made to have similar rest rules? I can understand relaxing cargo's night time hours, but here is my take: impose a 12 hour rest rule if a pilot flights in the 3am to 4am windown (time based on home base). I know when I was working graveyard shift sleep was tough. One cannot command a body to sleep during the day 'just like that.'

This will cut a few stations. Added costs in a down economy are bound to do that. But overall the new rules are a big plus.

Quoting DashTrash (Reply 32):
I'm a little dismayed to see AM / PM shifts NOT addressed in the new rules.

I would agree. It takes a while to switch sleep schedules. But overall, having rest rules made stricter will improve safety.

Lightsaber
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tb727
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RE: FAA Pilot Fatigue Rules To Be Announced 12/21/11

Thu Dec 22, 2011 6:26 pm

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 34):
Regulations to protect us are nice, but we can not forget that we control a lot of our own destiny. If you have a coveted position at UPS or Fed Ex (you can't get these jobs) you knew what you were signing up for when you got the job.

So if you have a coveted position you just have to deal with it because you are paid well to do so?

It shouldn't matter who you work for or what you fly, it doesn't make sense to have separate rest rules, safety is safety. Might as well relax maintenance requirements on cargo plans because, well, maintenance costs are a financial burden on cargo companies and well, you know, cargo companies only fly their planes a fraction of the amount a passenger airlines fly their planes.


Ok, now I have to go to sleep, I have 4 legs and 11+ hours of flying tonight!
Too lazy to work, too scared to steal!
 
seven3seven
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RE: FAA Pilot Fatigue Rules To Be Announced 12/21/11

Thu Dec 22, 2011 6:28 pm

The new rule is awesome!

They didnt do anything to regulate me before I go to work! But when I get there they have to make sure Im well rested!

Best of both worlds! Hahahahaha.
My views are mine alone and are not that of any of my fellow employees, officers, or directors at my company
 
DashTrash
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RE: FAA Pilot Fatigue Rules To Be Announced 12/21/11

Thu Dec 22, 2011 7:24 pm

Quoting silentbob (Reply 36):
I know a lot of commuters that want schedules like that. They save money on hotels and spend more days at home.

Yes and no. Late starts / early finishes are the airline's excuse for commutable lines, but only because the trips aren't productive enough. I can't tell you how many 16 hour 4 days I was scheduled for.
 
PITrules
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RE: FAA Pilot Fatigue Rules To Be Announced 12/21/11

Thu Dec 22, 2011 7:48 pm

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 34):
As for the UPS gripe above...I will say this. You applied for and took a job at an overnight delivery service.

I can bid the larger aircraft at my company and make more $$, but I chose not to becuase I am going to have a lot of redeye and weekend flying.

Regulations to protect us are nice, but we can not forget that we control a lot of our own destiny. If you have a coveted position at UPS or Fed Ex (you can't get these jobs) you knew what you were signing up for when you got the job.

People who work at a regional also took the job, and knew what they were signing up for. Does that make the existing rules ok? This is about safety and nothing else. We (the cargo guys) share the same runways as you.
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jfklganyc
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RE: FAA Pilot Fatigue Rules To Be Announced 12/21/11

Thu Dec 22, 2011 9:19 pm

I agree with you guys that Safety is first.

But UPS and Fed Ex and any cargo carriers do most of their flying at night.

You can put as much perfume on that as you want . . . but you are still flying on the backside of the clock.

So short of UPS changing their entire business plan that the company is based on, how do you crew these flights?

I know a lot of the majors have these same issues.

WN doesn't fly redeyes for this reason. But UPS is going to fly a majority of redeyes . . . so what should we (me, you, the FAA, and your airline) do about it?

It's a tough call.
 
jayhup
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RE: FAA Pilot Fatigue Rules To Be Announced 12/21/11

Thu Dec 22, 2011 9:30 pm

I notice that most of the comments on here are from pilots based in the US.

Pilots in the UK (and other countries) have been flying rules (CAP 371) very similar to these for many years.

I have worked on one crew scheduling with a UK based carrier which did long-haul and short-haul and never really heard much complaining.

Can we get some feedback from pilots flying under the CAP 371 rules about what they think of their rules or the new FAR's?

Do you have any advice for your American brethren?

JH
 
silentbob
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RE: FAA Pilot Fatigue Rules To Be Announced 12/21/11

Thu Dec 22, 2011 9:43 pm

Quoting DashTrash (Reply 40):
I can't tell you how many 16 hour 4 days I was scheduled for.

I know all about it, I had 75+ hours of duty time last week.
 
PITrules
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RE: FAA Pilot Fatigue Rules To Be Announced 12/21/11

Thu Dec 22, 2011 10:02 pm

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 42):
I agree with you guys that Safety is first.

But UPS and Fed Ex and any cargo carriers do most of their flying at night.

You can put as much perfume on that as you want . . . but you are still flying on the backside of the clock.

So short of UPS changing their entire business plan that the company is based on, how do you crew these flights?

You are making many generalizations. UPS and especially FedEx do a lot of daytime flying domestically. Much of their int'l networks are daytime flying. JetBlue does a lot of night time flying such as transcon red eyes and island turns. The disparity between the amount of day/night flying between FedEx/UPS and the majors is not as great as you make it out to be.

So to answer your question, how do you crew these flights? Build the pairings to meet the new parameters. Just like the passengers carriers will need to do. Yes, it would result in a need for more pilots, but again I imagine this is the same for everyone. Hardly a requirement for UPS to change their business plan.

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 42):

I know a lot of the majors have these same issues.

So why the need to exclude only the cargo carriers? Of course the answer is the intense lobbying they did. BTW, there was not a cargo exemption with the rules the FAA developed and proposed. This is a last minute development at the Executive Branch level. Money talks.
FLYi
 
XFSUgimpLB41X
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RE: FAA Pilot Fatigue Rules To Be Announced 12/21/11

Thu Dec 22, 2011 10:30 pm

It is criminal that there was a cargo cutout for these rules. Absolutely 100% criminal.
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tb727
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RE: FAA Pilot Fatigue Rules To Be Announced 12/21/11

Thu Dec 22, 2011 10:42 pm

Quoting PITrules (Reply 45):
So why the need to exclude only the cargo carriers? Of course the answer is the intense lobbying they did. BTW, there was not a cargo exemption with the rules the FAA developed and proposed. This is a last minute development at the Executive Branch level. Money talks.

It's crazy. And everyone knows that if the passenger airlines had lobbied to get the rules put off for another 40 years this time around instead of getting what just came out, the flying public would have been outraged. I highly doubt the press even covers the fact that we(cargo pilots)are still going to be flying planes over your head and into the same airports they go into with the same crappy rules everyone was trying to get changed. Cargo companies really got away with this one, this is how our country works now unfortunately.
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FlyHossD
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RE: FAA Pilot Fatigue Rules To Be Announced 12/21/11

Thu Dec 22, 2011 11:36 pm

Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 46):
It is criminal that there was a cargo cutout for these rules. Absolutely 100% criminal.

In essence, I agree. Can the F.A.A. or any other governmental agency be prosecuted for negligence, though? If these new rules for U.S. Part 121 passenger airlines are science based, how does that same science NOT apply to cargo operators?

Of course, we already know the answer - the new rules excluded the cargo carriers because the cargo carriers claimed the cost was excessive and the F.A.A. agreed.

Yet again, we have proof that when it comes to safety and F.A.A., the dollar triumphs.
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
stratosphere
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RE: FAA Pilot Fatigue Rules To Be Announced 12/21/11

Thu Dec 22, 2011 11:48 pm

Quoting tb727 (Reply 38):
Might as well relax maintenance requirements on cargo plans because, well, maintenance costs are a financial burden on cargo companies and well, you know, cargo companies only fly their planes a fraction of the amount a passenger airlines fly their planes.

Agree with you there. If MX is required to have standards as pax airlines then the rest rules need to be applied as well. Actually the freight dogs need the regulations more with their working the backside of the clock. But just to remind everyone mechanics could use those rules as well. Many of time I worked on a road trip 24 hrs + to fix an aircraft and in bad weather sometimes as well. Sometimes couldn't see straight do you want the guy who just hung an engine in the rain and wind being on duty for over 20 hrs?

Quoting PITrules (Reply 45):
You are making many generalizations. UPS and especially FedEx do a lot of daytime flying domestically. Much of their int'l networks are daytime flying. JetBlue does a lot of night time flying such as transcon red eyes and island turns. The disparity between the amount of day/night flying between FedEx/UPS and the majors is not as great as you make it out to be.

They do NOT!! I will not speak for UPS but in the case of FX they have a day launch and it was created mostly for mail but the vast majority of their flights are at night.