Sandgroper
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Airbus To Pay Out $mills In QF A330 Horror Flight

Wed Dec 21, 2011 8:55 am

150 QF A330 Passengers on flight QF72 have won millions of dollars in compensation settlement from Airbus & Northrop Grumman:

http://www.watoday.com.au/travel/tra...ut-from-airbus-20111220-1p3o7.html

[Edited 2011-12-21 00:58:38]
Sandgroper
 
747400sp
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RE: Airbus To Pay Out $mills In QF A330 Horror Flight

Wed Dec 21, 2011 9:29 am

Well good for her! When make a product that hundreds of people will use, it at least should be safe.
 
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RE: Airbus To Pay Out $mills In QF A330 Horror Flight

Wed Dec 21, 2011 10:11 am

Well, round-the-world free tickets could be seen as an acceptable compensation for anyone having suffered only a big fright from the incident, but for those physically injured I think QF must have offered sizable damage compensations in $$$. Probably not the millions passengers were awarded in court, but still not trivial amounts: anyone knows how much?
 
slinky09
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RE: Airbus To Pay Out $mills In QF A330 Horror Flight

Wed Dec 21, 2011 10:20 am

Interesting that the header of this thread mentions Airbus but not Northrop Grumman. As the news article says, the injured passengers would have received less had the US companies not been pursued, so I wonder how they are sharing the financial burden?
 
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RE: Airbus To Pay Out $mills In QF A330 Horror Flight

Wed Dec 21, 2011 10:30 am

Quoting 747400sp (Reply 1):
Well good for her! When make a product that hundreds of people will use, it at least should be safe.

It is safe.. Millions have flown on A330's and arrived safely as did the PAX on this flight, if a bit bruised. BTW the flight safety message before take off would have said please keep your seatbelt fastened at all times when seated.

The computer error has happened 3 times for 2 seconds over 128 million hours of operation.
BV
 
something
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RE: Airbus To Pay Out $mills In QF A330 Horror Flight

Wed Dec 21, 2011 10:38 am

Quote:
"I thought 'oh my god, this is it.' It felt like we were falling so far. We were saying our prayers and I was thinking 'I hope they find where I've put my will.' These are the things that go through your mind when you're falling."

Okay, first of all.. free zero G flight..awesome?

Second of all, how about a little less praying and a little more seat belt wearing?

As far as the ''millions of dollars'' are concerned, I highly doubt anybody has walked away with more than a couple grand. As it should be. If the seat belt signs were not on, it goes without saying injured passengers are entitled to have their medical bills taken care of and to receive an adequate severence check. Millions of dollars however are just ridiculous. Also, why was the lawsuit filed in the USA when Airbus is a European company, Qantas an Australian company, the flight took place in Australia and the passengers were Australian and Singaporean?
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autothrust
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RE: Airbus To Pay Out $mills In QF A330 Horror Flight

Wed Dec 21, 2011 10:49 am

   ??? Why has to pay Airbus? If someone should pay then Northrop.

[Edited 2011-12-21 02:50:25]
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AirbusA370
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RE: Airbus To Pay Out $mills In QF A330 Horror Flight

Wed Dec 21, 2011 11:02 am

Quoting Autothrust (Reply 6):
If someone should pay then Northrop.

Because Northrop may send an fighter drone to your house instead 
 
Sandgroper
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RE: Airbus To Pay Out $mills In QF A330 Horror Flight

Wed Dec 21, 2011 11:27 am

Quoting something (Reply 5):
As far as the ''millions of dollars'' are concerned, I highly doubt anybody has walked away with more than a couple grand.

If you read the article further down the highest individual is expecting several $million at least in one payout!
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RE: Airbus To Pay Out $mills In QF A330 Horror Flight

Wed Dec 21, 2011 12:16 pm

Quoting jollo (Reply 2):
Well, round-the-world free tickets could be seen as an acceptable compensation for anyone having suffered only a big fright from the incident, but for those physically injured I think QF must have offered sizable damage compensations in $$$. Probably not the millions passengers were awarded in court, but still not trivial amounts: anyone knows how much?

I don't know, round the world tickets would be nice but it kind of seems like a bad joke after what these people went through! I would imagine the last thing I would want after this experience would be to get back on that airline a fly even further... Being on the outside looking in we know that QF is perfectly safe and was not the cause of the horror but if you were on that flight that day and offered the ticket a few days later it might not seem so clear.

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 4):
It is safe.. Millions have flown on A330's and arrived safely as did the PAX on this flight, if a bit bruised. BTW the flight safety message before take off would have said please keep your seatbelt fastened at all times when seated.

The computer error has happened 3 times for 2 seconds over 128 million hours of operation.

You are wrong in trying to downplay what happened to these passengers and implying that there is/was nothing wrong with the A330. Passengers on this flight suffered much more than just a few bruises and those who weren't hurt still had to live through the horror of what happened. The plane dropping from the sky would be a truly horrible experience then you add to that the fact that several passengers had broken bones, it would have been terrifying being a passenger waiting for that plane to land.

Quoting something (Reply 5):
Okay, first of all.. free zero G flight..awesome?

Second of all, how about a little less praying and a little more seat belt wearing?

As far as the ''millions of dollars'' are concerned, I highly doubt anybody has walked away with more than a couple grand. As it should be. If the seat belt signs were not on, it goes without saying injured passengers are entitled to have their medical bills taken care of and to receive an adequate severence check. Millions of dollars however are just ridiculous. Also, why was the lawsuit filed in the USA when Airbus is a European company, Qantas an Australian company, the flight took place in Australia and the passengers were Australian and Singaporean?

I don't think that the passengers settling for "millions of dollars" were "ridiculous" at all. In todays world that is about the only way to send a clear message to a big corporation. The companies involved put out a bad product that resulted in severe injuries both physical and mental, they have to be responsible for their bad decision.
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RE: Airbus To Pay Out $mills In QF A330 Horror Flight

Wed Dec 21, 2011 1:17 pm

Quoting UAL747DEN (Reply 9):
You are wrong in trying to downplay what happened to these passengers and implying that there is/was nothing wrong with the A330. Passengers on this flight suffered much more than just a few bruises and those who weren't hurt still had to live through the horror of what happened.

Oh the humanity!.....

It was the equivalent of bad turbulence and the PAX Should have been strapped in period, I fly QF we are all told this in the briefing. Thats the reality of this but the way of the world is tabloid headlines "OMG we nearly died and I prayed to god for one more day of life... and he answered!" and sue, sue, sue.

If you are in a car not wearing your seat belt when your partner jams on the brakes and you bang your head do you get to sue Ford? I doubt it. (Toyota maybe...)
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RE: Airbus To Pay Out $mills In QF A330 Horror Flight

Wed Dec 21, 2011 1:31 pm

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 10):
It was the equivalent of bad turbulence and the PAX Should have been strapped in period,

Agreed. When I fly (and I fly twice every week) I am always strapped in. It is the normal and sensible thing to do. Of course the passengers had a very bad experience, but I do not think BoeingVista tried to downplay the incident.

On the other hand the FBW-computers are as safe as they can be. The numbers of the statistics speak for themselves.
 
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RE: Airbus To Pay Out $mills In QF A330 Horror Flight

Wed Dec 21, 2011 1:45 pm

Quoting Sandgroper (Reply 8):
If you read the article further down the highest individual is expecting several $million at least in one payout!

They go to the US trying to collect more money. But if it gets awarded and if it gets paid (both big if's, it is going to take another 5 years till everyone has settled), then the lawyer walks away with 50-70% of the total payout....

Quoting UAL747DEN (Reply 9):
You are wrong in trying to downplay what happened to these passengers and implying that there is/was nothing wrong with the A330. Passengers on this flight suffered much more than just a few bruises and those who weren't hurt still had to live through the horror of what happened. The plane dropping from the sky would be a truly horrible experience then you add to that the fact that several passengers had broken bones, it would have been terrifying being a passenger waiting for that plane to land.
Quoting UAL747DEN (Reply 9):
I don't think that the passengers settling for "millions of dollars" were "ridiculous" at all. In todays world that is about the only way to send a clear message to a big corporation. The companies involved put out a bad product that resulted in severe injuries both physical and mental, they have to be responsible for their bad decision.

It is a US concept that you yourself are never at fault and it is always somebody else's fault. The problem here in suing is that there is no negligence. Yes, there was a technical fault but it is not negligence. Insurance will have to pay for injuries and these cost can be significant, but why companies have to "receive a clear message" is beyond me.
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Sandgroper
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RE: Airbus To Pay Out $mills In QF A330 Horror Flight

Wed Dec 21, 2011 1:54 pm

Already the whole draft of the original press release has now changed. Sorry I didnt get a screen shot.
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RE: Airbus To Pay Out $mills In QF A330 Horror Flight

Wed Dec 21, 2011 1:56 pm

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 12):
On the other hand the FBW-computers are as safe as they can be. The numbers of the statistics speak for themselves.

I would disagree with the above statement and even argue that there may be fault in the way the flight computers are programmed.

Quite simply one moment everything is fine and the next minute (faulty or otherwise) the pitots (both) have failed and are potentionally showing zero thereby causing the aircraft to believe it had stalled and therefore throw the aircraft into a dive to recover.

Logic tells us you can't be doing 850km/h one second and zero the next. And why wouldn't you factor in a GPS ground speed data into the equation????

Food for thought??????
 
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RE: Airbus To Pay Out $mills In QF A330 Horror Flight

Wed Dec 21, 2011 4:02 pm

Quoting UAL747DEN (Reply 9):
there is/was nothing wrong with the A330.

Nonsense.There is nothing wrong with the A330. Look at the 737 accident statistics there was something wrong.

People without knowledge tend to underestimate the amount work and money Airbus invested all for safety in their FBW software.

The software was written in 5 different languages in 5 different companies running at several computers. Millîons of km's have been flown with this software.

Unlike the 777 where the software is on all computers the same.
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RE: Airbus To Pay Out $mills In QF A330 Horror Flight

Wed Dec 21, 2011 4:25 pm

Quoting UAL747DEN (Reply 9):
I don't think that the passengers settling for "millions of dollars" were "ridiculous" at all. In today's world that is about the only way to send a clear message to a big corporation.

If a company makes a mistake it has to pay up. That's how companies are forced / encouraged to do the right thing.

I'd like to hear the argument the lawyer gave the court why some passengers are worth millions in compensation? In fact I'd like to know which lawyers they used just in case......

Quoting Autothrust (Reply 15):
Unlike the 777 where the software is on all computers the same.

Oh dear  
and with that..cabin crew, seats for landing please.
 
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RE: Airbus To Pay Out $mills In QF A330 Horror Flight

Wed Dec 21, 2011 4:52 pm

Quoting something (Reply 5):
Okay, first of all.. free zero G flight..awesome?

Second of all, how about a little less praying and a little more seat belt wearing?

As far as the ''millions of dollars'' are concerned, I highly doubt anybody has walked away with more than a couple grand. As it should be. If the seat belt signs were not on, it goes without saying injured passengers are entitled to have their medical bills taken care of and to receive an adequate severence check. Millions of dollars however are just ridiculous. Also, why was the lawsuit filed in the USA when Airbus is a European company, Qantas an Australian company, the flight took place in Australia and the passengers were Australian and Singaporean?

Was the seat belt sign on? The lawsuit was filed in the U.S. because Northrup is a U.S. company and a defendant in the case, as well for other reasons.

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 10):
Oh the humanity!.....

It was the equivalent of bad turbulence and the PAX Should have been strapped in period, I fly QF we are all told this in the briefing. Thats the reality of this but the way of the world is tabloid headlines "OMG we nearly died and I prayed to god for one more day of life... and he answered!" and sue, sue, sue.

If you are in a car not wearing your seat belt when your partner jams on the brakes and you bang your head do you get to sue Ford? I doubt it. (Toyota maybe...)

I'm not sure why passengers should have been strapped in. Perhaps I missed where the article states that the sign was illuminated and passengers were told not to get up to go to the bathroom etc.

Turbulence (caused by nature) is not the same as a man-made object malfunctioning, which results in the injury of dozens of people.

As for the seat belt example, that's not even close - more like you are in a car and not wearing your seat belt and the assisted braking system malfunctions and you are injured.

Quoting AngMoh (Reply 12):
They go to the US trying to collect more money. But if it gets awarded and if it gets paid (both big if's, it is going to take another 5 years till everyone has settled), then the lawyer walks away with 50-70% of the total payout....

Why would the award not be paid by Northrup? 50 - 70 percent of the payout? Seriously ... that would great. You are a little off though.

Quoting AngMoh (Reply 12):
It is a US concept that you yourself are never at fault and it is always somebody else's fault. The problem here in suing is that there is no negligence. Yes, there was a technical fault but it is not negligence. Insurance will have to pay for injuries and these cost can be significant, but why companies have to "receive a clear message" is beyond me.

It sound like you are not familiar with comparative fault and contributory negligence, both of which can reduce or wipe out plaintiff's award because of the plaintiff's actions.

As for the technical fault, how did that fault occur? Was it not because of negligence by the manufacturer?
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Acheron
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RE: Airbus To Pay Out $mills In QF A330 Horror Flight

Wed Dec 21, 2011 5:22 pm

Quoting UAL747DEN (Reply 9):
You are wrong in trying to downplay what happened to these passengers and implying that there is/was nothing wrong with the A330

I just flew TATL in a GE powered A330, maybe I should sue Airbus for such a harrowing experience even when despite no turbulence, the captain kept reminding people that they should remain seated with their seatbelts fastened at all times...  

Some of you are ridiculous.
 
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RE: Airbus To Pay Out $mills In QF A330 Horror Flight

Wed Dec 21, 2011 5:31 pm

It is odd that certain incidents have more liabilities than others. Airplane related, including 9/11, produce huge settlements. Whereas other accidents often leave victims out in the cold, or only modestly reimbursed for injuries. Any liability specialists out there to explain this?
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Grid
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RE: Airbus To Pay Out $mills In QF A330 Horror Flight

Wed Dec 21, 2011 5:36 pm

Quoting frmrcapcadet (Reply 19):
It is odd that certain incidents have more liabilities than others. Airplane related, including 9/11, produce huge settlements. Whereas other accidents often leave victims out in the cold, or only modestly reimbursed for injuries. Any liability specialists out there to explain this?

Not sure what other accidents you are referring to ... but airline incidents often create a higher number of plaintiffs which requires greater compensation. A Texas jury just awarded a plaintiff $150 billion .. one person.
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shufflemoomin
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RE: Airbus To Pay Out $mills In QF A330 Horror Flight

Wed Dec 21, 2011 5:38 pm

Quoting Boeing767-300 (Reply 14):
Quite simply one moment everything is fine and the next minute (faulty or otherwise) the pitots (both) have failed and are potentionally showing zero thereby causing the aircraft to believe it had stalled and therefore throw the aircraft into a dive to recover.

What are you talking about? Failed pitots? Stalls? From the report:

"...one of the aircraft's three air data inertial reference units (ADIRUs) started outputting intermittent, incorrect values (spikes) on all flight parameters to other aircraft systems. Two minutes later, in response to spikes in angle of attack (AOA) data, the aircraft's flight control primary computers (FCPCs) commanded the aircraft to pitch down."
 
roseflyer
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RE: Airbus To Pay Out $mills In QF A330 Horror Flight

Wed Dec 21, 2011 5:49 pm

It has been established in the past that Airbus & Boeing have to pay the airlines compensation for design defects. This was a incident that had the airplane pitching violently after a single sensor malfunctionsed. Passengers are lucky the airplane didn't have the fate as some other well known incidents when airspeed indication failed.

Usually I am opposed to people getting large sums of money for incidents like this, but in this case there were violent pitch changes and dozens of people seriously injured who went through ceiling panels. There were physical injuries on top of the typical emotional stress of the situation.

Hopefully this will put an end to this specific incident and the lessons learned will make the rest of the fleet safer.

Quoting Autothrust (Reply 15):
Quoting UAL747DEN (Reply 9):
there is/was nothing wrong with the A330.

Nonsense.There is nothing wrong with the A330. Look at the 737 accident statistics there was something wrong.

People without knowledge tend to underestimate the amount work and money Airbus invested all for safety in their FBW software.

Airbus did eventually fix the software control logic, which is akin to them acknowledging a problem. The problem was that a single erroneous entry resulted in the incident where redundancy control laws should have been in place. I think that can be categorized as a design defect.

Does that make the A330 unsafe? Of course not. But in this case something was wrong with the design. The 737 has plenty wrong with its design too. A similar fault was the radio altimeter failure causing thrust reductions that resulted in the crash of a Turkish 737 in AMS. That resulted in a similar situation where a design change happened to fix the problem.
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RE: Airbus To Pay Out $mills In QF A330 Horror Flight

Wed Dec 21, 2011 5:53 pm

Quoting Grid (Reply 20):
A Texas jury just awarded a plaintiff $150 billion .. one person.


Are you sure? billions? for personal injuries?
That would fix (temporary of course) the Italian economy problems. I can't believe it.
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cmf
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RE: Airbus To Pay Out $mills In QF A330 Horror Flight

Wed Dec 21, 2011 6:01 pm

Quoting UAL747DEN (Reply 9):
I don't know, round the world tickets would be nice but it kind of seems like a bad joke after what these people went through! I would imagine the last thing I would want after this experience would be to get back on that airline a fly even further

The best thing they can do after such an accident is get back up flying as soon as possible again. Get back on the horse as they say.

Quoting UAL747DEN (Reply 9):
I don't think that the passengers settling for "millions of dollars" were "ridiculous" at all. In todays world that is about the only way to send a clear message to a big corporation. The companies involved put out a bad product that resulted in severe injuries both physical and mental, they have to be responsible for their bad decision.

If the millions of dollars is to pay for medical and other expenses caused by the accident them I'm all for it. If it is to punish the big bad company for not having covered everything much less so.

Clarification, I'm all for punishing companies who intentionally or ignorantly fail but I do not think that is the case here.

Quoting Boeing767-300 (Reply 14):
I would disagree with the above statement and even argue that there may be fault in the way the flight computers are programmed.

Quite simply one moment everything is fine and the next minute (faulty or otherwise) the pitots (both) have failed and are potentionally showing zero thereby causing the aircraft to believe it had stalled and therefore throw the aircraft into a dive to recover.

Nothing is perfectly safe. Not even staying home in bed all your life is perfectly safe. I think you will find it hard to display FBW is less safe than alternatives.
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Grid
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RE: Airbus To Pay Out $mills In QF A330 Horror Flight

Wed Dec 21, 2011 6:14 pm

Quoting Aquila3 (Reply 23):

Quoting Grid (Reply 20):
A Texas jury just awarded a plaintiff $150 billion .. one person.


Are you sure? billions? for personal injuries?
That would fix (temporary of course) the Italian economy problems. I can't believe it.

Not just personal injuries, but punitive damages and medical expenses. Collecting that judgment will be another thing.
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RE: Airbus To Pay Out $mills In QF A330 Horror Flight

Wed Dec 21, 2011 6:16 pm

Quoting slinky09 (Reply 3):
Interesting that the header of this thread mentions Airbus but not Northrop Grumm

The article title is phrased as such. Which is in itself interesting of course

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 4):
It is safe.. Millions have flown on A330's and arrived safely

Indeed. From the article

Quote:
The ATSB found it was the only case of the flight computer going haywire in 28 million flight hours of the Airbus A330 or A340.

Unless 1 in 28 million today classifies as "unsafe"..

Quoting Grid (Reply 17):
I'm not sure why passengers should have been strapped in.

Again, from the article

Quote:
In its findings this week, the ATSB said the incident was "a salient reminder to all passengers and crew of the importance of wearing their seat belts during a flight whenever they are seated."

On every flight I've ever been on, passengers have been advised to keep their seatbelts on at all times

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 22):
Airbus did eventually fix the software control logic, which is akin to them acknowledging a problem

"Eventually"?

Are you trying to imply that Airbus (just Airbus again, I note) wouldn't have investigated this issue and fixed it, irrespective of damages claims?

That would be absolutely and utterly ludicrous.

Rgds

[Edited 2011-12-21 10:16:55]
 
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RE: Airbus To Pay Out $mills In QF A330 Horror Flight

Wed Dec 21, 2011 6:21 pm

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 11):
Agreed. When I fly (and I fly twice every week) I am always strapped in. It is the normal and sensible thing to do.

When you get up and go to the bathroom? Or get a glass of water? Or get something out of your overhead bin? Was the fasten seat belt light illuminated?

I am also always strapped in, when I am seated. However, I am not always seated. If the crew turns off the seat belt sign and says it is safe to move about the cabin, passengers rely on that.

If injured passengers had been doing stuff they were told not to do, that would be another thing entirely. But I don't hear that is the case here. In any case, the cause has been determined, so it is not a question of blame, it is known what is to blame for the injuries, and it is not anything the passengers did.
 
Grid
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RE: Airbus To Pay Out $mills In QF A330 Horror Flight

Wed Dec 21, 2011 6:22 pm

Quoting astuteman (Reply 26):
Quoting Grid (Reply 17):
I'm not sure why passengers should have been strapped in.

Again, from the article

Quote:
In its findings this week, the ATSB said the incident was "a salient reminder to all passengers and crew of the importance of wearing their seat belts during a flight whenever they are seated."

On every flight I've ever been on, passengers have been advised to keep their seatbelts on at all times

Right. However, the rest of what I said was: I'm not sure why passengers should have been strapped in. Perhaps I missed where the article states that the sign was illuminated and passengers were told not to get up to go to the bathroom etc.

Yes, people are supposed to wear seat belts especially when seated. However, the article does not mention whether the "Fasten Seat Belt" sign was illuminated and whether the people injured were going to the restroom etc.
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Aquila3
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RE: Airbus To Pay Out $mills In QF A330 Horror Flight

Wed Dec 21, 2011 6:32 pm

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 22):
Airbus did eventually fix the software control logic, which is akin to them acknowledging a problem


If at Airbus they where so dishonest like many here believe they should say "the problem is unknown and we could not repeat it". Very hardly somebody else would find the bug, and anyway the bill won't be probably bigger.
Wrong and dis-educative message sent with this ruling, in my opinion.
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747400sp
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RE: Airbus To Pay Out $mills In QF A330 Horror Flight

Wed Dec 21, 2011 6:42 pm

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 4):
It is safe.. Millions have flown on A330's and arrived safely as did the PAX on this flight, if a bit bruised. BTW the flight safety message before take off would have said please keep your seatbelt fastened at all times when seated.

The computer error has happened 3 times for 2 seconds over 128 million hours of operation.

I thought about it, and may be I should have thought my reply though, because the A330 is a safe a/c. I still think it is good that this woman got millions of dollar. Put your self in her shoes.
 
roseflyer
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RE: Airbus To Pay Out $mills In QF A330 Horror Flight

Wed Dec 21, 2011 6:44 pm

Quoting astuteman (Reply 26):
Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 22):
Airbus did eventually fix the software control logic, which is akin to them acknowledging a problem

"Eventually"?

Are you trying to imply that Airbus (just Airbus again, I note) wouldn't have investigated this issue and fixed it, irrespective of damages claims?

That would be absolutely and utterly ludicrous.

I'm not trying to imply that at all. It likely went through their safety investigation review process as soon as the incident happened (this is required to be a separate process from any that involves specific damages or compensation as a result of the investigation process). A design change took 13 months to be published (that's relatively typical as 6-24 months is usually required for a software fix) and more longer than that to be incorporated into the fleet… hence Eventually. This is a very typical process and all manufacturers have an organized process of how to deal with it. Incidents leading to the discovery of design defects and eventually getting fixed happens on a weekly basis.

As far as pointing out just Airbus, there is a reason for that. They are responsible for the certificate of the aircraft and have responsibility over all their suppliers. If it is a supplier or a subtier supplier's problem then they also have associated work, but it is Airbus publishing a Service Bulleting (or Service Letter indicating that a Component Service Bulletin needs to be incorporated) that is authority to go fix the problem. A supplier such as Northrop Grumman cannot change their control logic without Airbus approval. It is Airbus directing the fix to the problem. I'm not trying to split hairs here as I would have said the same thing if it was Boeing or Bombardier.

Quoting cmf (Reply 24):
Quoting Boeing767-300 (Reply 14):
I would disagree with the above statement and even argue that there may be fault in the way the flight computers are programmed.

Quite simply one moment everything is fine and the next minute (faulty or otherwise) the pitots (both) have failed and are potentionally showing zero thereby causing the aircraft to believe it had stalled and therefore throw the aircraft into a dive to recover.

Nothing is perfectly safe. Not even staying home in bed all your life is perfectly safe. I think you will find it hard to display FBW is less safe than alternatives.

I think that is very true and it is important to recognize no airplane is perfectly safe. Faults do happen and the probability of them happening and the consequence of them happening are carefully evaluated in the control logic and control law designs. I don't think this is a case of FBW being more or less safe. A bad ADIRU inputting erroneous informaiton into the autopilot having such a response is considered a low probability event and there are many similar low probability events that don't have designs in place to ensure they won't happen. In this case Airbus went ahead and fixed the problem as a result of an incident. There was a problem with the plane and it got fixed.

[Edited 2011-12-21 10:48:53]
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tjcab
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RE: Airbus To Pay Out $mills In QF A330 Horror Flight

Wed Dec 21, 2011 7:30 pm

Quoting tommytoyz (Reply 27):
If the crew turns off the seat belt sign and says it is safe to move about the cabin, passengers rely on that.

And this is the reason why they keep reminding us to remain strapped in while seated. The cannot keep the sign illuminated or else we would not be able to go to the bathroom. This should be clear to passengers, but then again, on my last trip, a fool got up in the plane at MUC just as we were pulling into the gate.
 
roseflyer
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RE: Airbus To Pay Out $mills In QF A330 Horror Flight

Wed Dec 21, 2011 7:46 pm

Quoting Aquila3 (Reply 29):
Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 22):
Airbus did eventually fix the software control logic, which is akin to them acknowledging a problem


If at Airbus they where so dishonest like many here believe they should say "the problem is unknown and we could not repeat it". Very hardly somebody else would find the bug, and anyway the bill won't be probably bigger.
Wrong and dis-educative message sent with this ruling, in my opinion.

I don't think I understand what you are saying (might be a language barrier). I do not believe that Airbus is being dishonest in any way at all. Anyone that does probably does not understand aircraft design and the regulations regarding safety. The process of analyzing an incident and finding a technical solution is completely independent of any court order for compensation to victims of an accident. Airbus found the problem with the Northrup Grumman ADIRU and incorporated a software fix so that a single failure will not result in the flight control computer commanding large pitch changes due to a single failure of AOA, Altitude or Airspeed indication.

The court issued compensation for genuine medical damages that resulted from the incident as it was attributed to Airbus and Northrup Grumman design. For the decision if damages should be awarded is (I am paraphrasing the FAA FARs): in the normal design process, would such a failure mode be accounted for in typical design, or is it an extraordinary circumstance (x10^-9)? In this case it was a single failure of an ADIRU, which likely is something industry best practices would have designed to compensate for since there is redundancy. The FARs require that a single failure to any component on the airplane may not cause upset to the flight and impact continued airworthiness and ability to make a safe landing without exceptional pilot skill. In this case a single failure happened, it caused upset to the flight, and caused injuries hence it is logical that victims should be compensated by the party at fault.

In this case Qantas offered to refund the ticket, gave a free voucher and paid medical expenses. They did not originally provide any compensation beyond that, which in court is sometimes given for pain and suffering, lost wages, lost time, disabilities etc. In this case, it was settled which means that Qantas, Airbus and Northrup Grumman came together to offer something more than originally offered. There is no guilty or not guilty as it didn't even get to a judgment. Again, it took a lawsuit to get it, but I don't think it should be implied that Airbus or anyone else was dishonest.

[Edited 2011-12-21 11:51:25]
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cmf
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RE: Airbus To Pay Out $mills In QF A330 Horror Flight

Wed Dec 21, 2011 8:28 pm

Quoting Grid (Reply 17):
Was it not because of negligence by the manufacturer?

I don't think it was. I do think many passengers were injured because of their own negligence, not strapped in when in seat.

Quoting Grid (Reply 20):
A Texas jury just awarded a plaintiff $150 billion .. one person.

Which is a good example of why most of the world consider US civil suits a joke.

Quoting Grid (Reply 28):
Right. However, the rest of what I said was: I'm not sure why passengers should have been strapped in. Perhaps I missed where the article states that the sign was illuminated and passengers were told not to get up to go to the bathroom etc.

Because you're told to strap in whenever you're in your seat. That covers most of the passengers injured. Not all, but most.
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ljupco
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RE: Airbus To Pay Out $mills In QF A330 Horror Flight

Wed Dec 21, 2011 8:33 pm

Quoting jollo (Reply 2):
Well, round-the-world free tickets could be seen as an acceptable compensation for anyone having suffered only a big fright from the incident,

after such a horror flight, I'm doubt anyone is going to accept round-the-world the world tour. Inflight trauma, situations which lead our mind to the edge of life are very tough to treat. Hope all are fine now and not afraid to be on board A or B.
 
YULWinterSkies
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RE: Airbus To Pay Out $mills In QF A330 Horror Flight

Wed Dec 21, 2011 9:13 pm

Quoting tommytoyz (Reply 27):
If the crew turns off the seat belt sign and says it is safe to move about the cabin, passengers rely on that.

Right, but the crew also reminds pax that they should wear it when seated, just in case, and also just in case they fall asleep and the seat belt sign gets turned back on again (in this case, they have to wake you up, which is never convenient). But I agree, a little less praying and a little more seat belt wearing would not have resulted in so many injuries.

After all, you're in motion at 800 km / hr gliding on a less dense surface (air), and you should never expect things to be smooth at all times. Sudden, unexpected and brief bad turbulence is uncommon but not unheard of, and a lot more common that QF 72 computer glitches. Such turbulence can also send you up hitting the ceiling and falling back in the aisle if seat belt ain't being worn.
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Francoflier
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RE: Airbus To Pay Out $mills In QF A330 Horror Flight

Wed Dec 21, 2011 9:27 pm

Quoting Sandgroper (Thread starter):
150 QF A330 Passengers on flight QF72 have won millions of dollars in compensation settlement from Airbus & Northrop Grumman:

For a few seconds of aerobatics?
That's it. I'm only flying Airbus from now on...
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Aquila3
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RE: Airbus To Pay Out $mills In QF A330 Horror Flight

Wed Dec 21, 2011 9:42 pm

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 33):
I don't think I understand what you are saying (might be a language barrier).

Yes, there is. You are the mother tongue, so I am at fault I admit it. I have to read three times some sentence of yours to get them. My bad.
But more than all there is a mindset barrier. I did not write in precise technical and legal wording as you did, but I believe that anyone that wants to understand my few words can do it. Do not try to make a fool of me just because my opinion does not match yours and maybe the majority here.
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jollo
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RE: Airbus To Pay Out $mills In QF A330 Horror Flight

Wed Dec 21, 2011 9:50 pm

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 33):
In this case Qantas offered to refund the ticket, gave a free voucher and paid medical expenses. They did not originally provide any compensation beyond that

Ah, thank you, you finally gave an answer to my question (30-some posts back).

In this case, for a single component failure causing a significant flight upset, I believe the injured passengers were fully justified in bringing all parties involved (including the airplane manufacturer) to court.

Airbus could have offered spontaneously meaningful compensations to injured passengers, along with fixing the defect in the redundancy logic. Might or might not have saved them a few mils, but they have missed an opportunity on the PR side (callous big bad company that will never admit being wrong if it hits one $ of bottom line and has to be dragged in court to get fair compensations vs. self-assured, ethical company that leaves no stone unturned in the quest of safety, including admitting a good faith mistake and taking the lumps for it)
 
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ssteve
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RE: Airbus To Pay Out $mills In QF A330 Horror Flight

Wed Dec 21, 2011 9:55 pm

Quoting AngMoh (Reply 12):
It is a US concept that you yourself are never at fault and it is always somebody else's fault.

Hyperbole, yet an accurate portrayal of the mindset of some.

The US concept that pisses me off more is that cases like this never see adjudication in court because they carry such a spectre of high court costs and ridiculous judgements, so it's settled out of court by a bunch of lawyers playing at money-maximizing game theory that has nothing to do with "justice." It is someone else's liability in this case, but to an extent that's really easy to calculate. Refund their ticket. Pay their medical costs. Pay their lost wages. Do not send their kids to college and buy them a new car. Was it scary? Shit happens. You ain't dead.
 
Grid
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RE: Airbus To Pay Out $mills In QF A330 Horror Flight

Wed Dec 21, 2011 10:26 pm

Quoting SSTeve (Reply 40):
It is someone else's liability in this case, but to an extent that's really easy to calculate. Refund their ticket. Pay their medical costs. Pay their lost wages. Do not send their kids to college and buy them a new car. Was it scary? Shit happens. You ain't dead.

It's not that easy to calculate, even if you aren't going to take into account pain and suffering. The problem is that you may go to the hospital initially and send the airline a bill for it but then a few years later the injury is reaggravated - and you don't get to take the airline back to court. But anyways, it's a very contentious issue and there is, as you said, great risk in going to court. If you don't like it, work to change the system. Aside from the weather, I hear more people complain about the legal system in the U.S. but never do anything about it.
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fiscal
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RE: Airbus To Pay Out $mills In QF A330 Horror Flight

Wed Dec 21, 2011 11:09 pm

The lady noted in the interview said that she did not have her seat belt on as the meal service had just finished. Maybe she meant to say that the meal service had finished AND she was just getting up from her seat to go to the toilet. If this was not the case, then she should have had it fastened. Qantas business class passengers do not get that much food that you get so bloated and feel a need to unfasten your seat belt.

However, it does bring about an interesting thought about attributed blame for anyone out of their seats at the time. I wonder if anyone's claim was reduced for being out of their seat without being in the toilet or waiting in the queue? The lawyers may have argued that wondering around the cabin to stretch your legs may make you partially culpable as you should be seated at all times??
 
Grid
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RE: Airbus To Pay Out $mills In QF A330 Horror Flight

Wed Dec 21, 2011 11:15 pm

Quoting fiscal (Reply 42):
However, it does bring about an interesting thought about attributed blame for anyone out of their seats at the time. I wonder if anyone's claim was reduced for being out of their seat without being in the toilet or waiting in the queue? The lawyers may have argued that wondering around the cabin to stretch your legs may make you partially culpable as you should be seated at all times??

A lawyer worth his salt would say, "Now, if you were out of your seat for no reason at all, your award may be reduced because you contributed to your own injuries. So why were you not seated?" Light bulb goes on. Passenger says, "I was out of my seat because I needed to use the restroom/was in line for the lavatory/get medication out of my bag in the overhead bin/".
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BoeingVista
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RE: Airbus To Pay Out $mills In QF A330 Horror Flight

Wed Dec 21, 2011 11:52 pm

Quoting Grid (Reply 17):
I'm not sure why passengers should have been strapped in. Perhaps I missed where the article states that the sign was illuminated and passengers were told not to get up to go to the bathroom etc.

No, you missed the safety briefing. The safety briefing contains important information that should be followed to ensure your safety and on QF part of this briefing is keep your seat belts fastened at all times while seated.

And you are implying that 110 people were queuing for the bathroom?

[Edited 2011-12-21 16:01:14]
BV
 
BlueBus
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RE: Airbus To Pay Out $mills In QF A330 Horror Flight

Thu Dec 22, 2011 12:32 am

OMG. Wear your seat belt already. Even if it is really lose, it will stop your head from going into the ceiling. If you decide not to wear it -- cool, just don't go suing.
 
Grid
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RE: Airbus To Pay Out $mills In QF A330 Horror Flight

Thu Dec 22, 2011 12:54 am

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 44):
No, you missed the safety briefing. The safety briefing contains important information that should be followed to ensure your safety and on QF part of this briefing is keep your seat belts fastened at all times while seated.

And you are implying that 110 people were queuing for the bathroom?

No.
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Ruscoe
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RE: Airbus To Pay Out $mills In QF A330 Horror Flight

Thu Dec 22, 2011 1:01 am

Quoting Autothrust (Reply 15):
Nonsense.There is nothing wrong with the A330. Look at the 737 accident statistics there was something wrong

The hull loss rate with fatalities for the 737NG is 0.18 per million departures and total hull loss 0.30/million dep.

The figures for the 330 are 0.46 for each.

I don't know the overall loss rate for all 737 generations, but I do think it is fair to compare the 330 to the 737NG

Ruscoe
 
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BoeingVista
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RE: Airbus To Pay Out $mills In QF A330 Horror Flight

Thu Dec 22, 2011 1:12 am

Quoting bluebus (Reply 45):
OMG. Wear your seat belt already. Even if it is really lose, it will stop your head from going into the ceiling. If you decide not to wear it -- cool, just don't go suing.

  
BV
 
cam747
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RE: Airbus To Pay Out $mills In QF A330 Horror Flight

Thu Dec 22, 2011 1:14 am

Quoting bluebus (Reply 45):

OMG. Wear your seat belt already. Even if it is really lose, it will stop your head from going into the ceiling. If you decide not to wear it -- cool, just don't go suing.

I agree with you - if people are injured due to normal turbulence and you don't have your belt on and get injured, then you shouldn't go suing. Its part of the risk of flying, and you get warned to keep your belt on. But that IS NOT what happened in this instance.

In this case the plane plunged 690 feet while the seatbelt sign was off, due to an (ableit very rare) fault with the aircraft - a programming error in one of the ADIRU's. I think in this instance, people who were seriously injured deserve to be compensated.