Gonzalo
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Disgusting Discrimination Against LAN Argentina

Wed Dec 21, 2011 4:59 pm

OK, I don't want to start a war of nationalism and chauvinism in the forum, but the last moves from the ANAC ( Argentina's aviation authorities ) are absurd. They are forbidding LAN Argentina to operate regional flights from Aeroparque, saying that the reason is the airport is overloaded, but two weeks ago they granted new operations for Austral from the same airport.
This is the consequence of ignorant and corrupt people ( AR is under the control of the President's Son, who don't know a word about aviation !!!!! ) in charge of high positions that they clearly don't deserve.
They are trying to save AR at any cost, and probably the violation of some rules or international regulations here and there are not a problem.

( Sorry Spanish links only ).

http://www.emol.com/noticias/economi...s-regionales-desde-aeroparque.html

http://www.emol.com/noticias/economi...on-de-vuelos-desde-aeroparque.html



Can LAN Argentina ask for help to somebody here ? ICAO ? IATA ? WTO ? Chilean Gov ? Who can help in a situation like this ?

Any insight will be appreciated.

G.
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PDPsol
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RE: Disgusting Discrimination Against LAN Argentina

Wed Dec 21, 2011 5:06 pm

Anyone with even a remote understanding of commercial aviation in Argentina should not be surprised by this. The LAN subsidiary in Argentina, 4M, is not the first carrier to face the wrath of the Argentine government. Other carriers, including PU, have publicly stated they have been barred from operating flights from markets such as BRC and ROS.

LAN is very experienced with operations in Argentina and they must have some understanding of how to deal with this.

Argentina is certainly not an open market for commercial aviation.
 
Gonzalo
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RE: Disgusting Discrimination Against LAN Argentina

Wed Dec 21, 2011 5:27 pm

Quoting PDPsol (Reply 1):
Anyone with even a remote understanding of commercial aviation in Argentina should not be surprised by this. The LAN subsidiary in Argentina, 4M, is not the first carrier to face the wrath of the Argentine government. Other carriers, including PU, have publicly stated they have been barred from operating flights from markets such as BRC and ROS.

LAN is very experienced with operations in Argentina and they must have some understanding of how to deal with this.

Argentina is certainly not an open market for commercial aviation.

I agree with you, I'm not surprised... I'm tired !!!!
This people do whatever they want without receiving any punishment from higher powers, and that is why I'm asking: Can somebody, in the international level ( like IATA, ICAO, WTO , ETC ) punish this kind of actions ? Is there any code, regulation or treaty in force to protect decent companies of this kind of governments ?

G.
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aeroblogger
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RE: Disgusting Discrimination Against LAN Argentina

Wed Dec 21, 2011 5:38 pm

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 2):
I agree with you, I'm not surprised... I'm tired !!!!
This people do whatever they want without receiving any punishment from higher powers, and that is why I'm asking: Can somebody, in the international level ( like IATA, ICAO, WTO , ETC ) punish this kind of actions ? Is there any code, regulation or treaty in force to protect decent companies of this kind of governments ?

G.

No. What they're doing isn't forbidden in any way. Governments are free to regulate aviation however they wish when it comes to route authorities, slots, etc.
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Clydenairways
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RE: Disgusting Discrimination Against LAN Argentina

Wed Dec 21, 2011 5:41 pm

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 2):
This people do whatever they want without receiving any punishment from higher powers, and that is why I'm asking: Can somebody, in the international level ( like IATA, ICAO, WTO , ETC ) punish this kind of actions ? Is there any code, regulation or treaty in force to protect decent companies of this kind of governments ?

I don't think there is anything that can be done as is the government that makes it's own domestic laws, and there is obviously no Domestic Open Skies kind of treaty that the Argentine government would be bound by.
 
2travel2know2
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RE: Disgusting Discrimination Against LAN Argentina

Wed Dec 21, 2011 6:30 pm

If I'm not mistaken airfares in Argentina are regulated so even if 4M would be allowed by Argentina ANAC to fly domestic out of EZE, they wouldn't be able to attract passengers w/ its lower fares with whatever AR offers out of most convenient AEP,
We don't even see Venezuela's Civil Aviation protecting Conviasa at the expense of other airlines the very same way Argentina's ANAC does with AR and Austral.
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jetsetter629
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RE: Disgusting Discrimination Against LAN Argentina

Wed Dec 21, 2011 6:37 pm

So does this mean that 4M will have to transfer all of their current flights to EZE?

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 5):
If I'm not mistaken airfares in Argentina are regulated

And so expensive as well...especially for foreigners!
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C010T3
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RE: Disgusting Discrimination Against LAN Argentina

Wed Dec 21, 2011 6:58 pm

Quoting Gonzalo (Thread starter):
Can LAN Argentina ask for help to somebody here ? ICAO ? IATA ? WTO ? Chilean Gov ? Who can help in a situation like this ?

Yes, from Argentinian justice. I'm sure that they will have to fight up the way to Supreme Court. But, honestly, that won't get them far. They should start lobbying Congress for laws that corner the ANAC into transparency. Then, going after their rights in individual claims will be easier.

My opinion is that they should try everything they can from AEP, but we all know that AR is struggling at EZE, so they should just go after them there.
 
C010T3
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RE: Disgusting Discrimination Against LAN Argentina

Wed Dec 21, 2011 7:01 pm

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 5):
If I'm not mistaken airfares in Argentina are regulated so even if 4M would be allowed by Argentina ANAC to fly domestic out of EZE, they wouldn't be able to attract passengers w/ its lower fares with whatever AR offers out of most convenient AEP,

When fares are regulated, you attract passengers with service.
 
bobnwa
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RE: Disgusting Discrimination Against LAN Argentina

Wed Dec 21, 2011 7:18 pm

Quoting Gonzalo (Thread starter):
OK, I don't want to start a war of nationalism and chauvinism in the forum,




I believe you have started a war of nationalism and chauvinism, while saying you don't want to
 
rojo
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RE: Disgusting Discrimination Against LAN Argentina

Wed Dec 21, 2011 7:37 pm

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 2):
I agree with you, I'm not surprised... I'm tired !!!!
This people do whatever they want without receiving any punishment from higher powers, and that is why I'm asking: Can somebody, in the international level ( like IATA, ICAO, WTO , ETC ) punish this kind of actions ? Is there any code, regulation or treaty in force to protect decent companies of this kind of governments ?

They received their punishment already... how many times has AR gone on strike stranding thousands of passengers in the last 5 years. Foreign airlines have taken market share from AR at a very fast pace and, when Argentina was downgraded to CAT II by the US, AR lost most of its loyal customers on US to Argentina routes. We all know that domestic operations in Argentina are not profitable since prices are regulated by the government. AR is the only airline flying to many small airports because the government wants to maintain connectivity, but taxpayers in Argentina are the ones taking the bill...
 
Gonzalo
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RE: Disgusting Discrimination Against LAN Argentina

Wed Dec 21, 2011 7:40 pm

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 7):
transparency

Well, you can dream about that in Argentina... but don't expect too much when you wake up. If you take a look to the ranking at Transparency International you will see Chile in position 22, Uruguay in 25.....and Argentina is the number 100.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datab...ex-2011-transparency-international

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 9):
I believe you have started a war of nationalism and chauvinism, while saying you don't want to

I don't think so. Until now I don't see any inadequate post in this thread from our members in Argentina.
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abrelosojos
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RE: Disgusting Discrimination Against LAN Argentina

Wed Dec 21, 2011 8:14 pm

Quoting AeroBlogger (Reply 3):
No. What they're doing isn't forbidden in any way. Governments are free to regulate aviation however they wish when it comes to route authorities, slots, etc.
Quoting bobnwa (Reply 9):
I believe you have started a war of nationalism and chauvinism, while saying you don't want to

= Agreed to both.

Personally, I hardly would think this is discrimination - it is Argentinian law, and if LAN cannot play accordingly, it should perhaps not be in the Argentine marketplace. Pretty simple as that.

In my mind, tying these things to a strong word like "discrimination" undervalues the world itself - discrimination is what Mapuche or Rapa Nui natives suffer in Chile. So let's keep things in perspective shall we?

Saludos,
A
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Gonzalo
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RE: Disgusting Discrimination Against LAN Argentina

Wed Dec 21, 2011 8:47 pm

Quoting abrelosojos (Reply 12):
Personally, I hardly would think this is discrimination - it is Argentinian law, and if LAN cannot play accordingly, it should perhaps not be in the Argentine marketplace. Pretty simple as that.

In my mind, tying these things to a strong word like "discrimination" undervalues the world itself

Oh really ? Can you then explain why this situation ONLY affects LAN ? When you apply a restriction to only one ( person, company, organization ) among others who play the game under the same rules and pay the same taxes, that is discrimination. Period.

The only reason for the decision of the ANAC is, they don't have a decent airline in the country for decades, and are afraid that LAN and its standard can show to the argentinian people how a decent airline should be.

G.
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C010T3
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RE: Disgusting Discrimination Against LAN Argentina

Wed Dec 21, 2011 9:03 pm

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 11):
Well, you can dream about that in Argentina... but don't expect too much when you wake up. If you take a look to the ranking at Transparency International you will see Chile in position 22, Uruguay in 25.....and Argentina is the number 100.

I'm not talking about aspects outside aviation. If LAN is able to demonstrate to the governments of the provinces that they could have more flights with more transparency and equality by the civil aviation regulator, they could be compelled to exert pressure in that direction. It's not a question of revoking AR's privileges, but removing its subjectivity.

Now talking about a specific issue in that area. Why is it that 4M is now annually applying for EZE-GIG with the Brazilian ANAC, but withdrawing the application some days later? Is the Argentinian ANAC vetoing that too?
 
2travel2know2
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RE: Disgusting Discrimination Against LAN Argentina

Wed Dec 21, 2011 9:22 pm

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 13):
Oh really ? Can you then explain why this situation ONLY affects LAN ?

I believe Argentina's ANAC also gives Andes (partially owned by SLA provincial government) a hard time.

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 14):
I'm not talking about aspects outside aviation. If LAN is able to demonstrate to the governments of the provinces that they could have more flights with more transparency and equality by the civil aviation regulator, they could be compelled to exert pressure in that direction.

Putting some pressure thru the provincial governments could achieve something. But the provincial governments shouldn't forget that they are on one side while ANAC, AR/Austral and the Argentine airports operator (notable exception ROS) are in the other.
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AR385
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RE: Disgusting Discrimination Against LAN Argentina

Wed Dec 21, 2011 11:28 pm

Quoting PDPsol (Reply 1):
Argentina is certainly not an open market for commercial aviation.

Unfortunately Argentina is trying to manage its economy going the protectionist way. Books from Spanish Editorials were banned a few months ago, bananas from outside Argentina are stranded in the border as of yesterday, it has imposed very strict foreign currency controls, etc. This spat with 4M is just the latest of these types of measures. PU is also suffering. And according to Clarín, the 4M restrictions was specifically a direct request from AR´s manager, Recalde.

If the Argentines want to go down that road with their economy, it´s their choice, I guess, but I firmly believe they are only heading for just another of their periodical crisis that every 8 to 12 years bankrupts them.

Quoting AeroBlogger (Reply 3):
No. What they're doing isn't forbidden in any way. Governments are free to regulate aviation however they wish when it comes to route authorities, slots, etc.

I don´t know the type of bilaterals Argentina has signed with its bordering countries. But if they have one in place with Chile that regulates 4M´s ops, then, no, legally, they are not free to do "however they wish."

I frankly find it stupid that the Presidents of these two blocks, UNASUR and Mercosur, are getting together often and blabbering about integration and a common front againts their imperialist enemies to the North wihile back at home they are fighting each other out with tariffs on imports, sudden taxes, restrictions of money flows, etc. and other dumb measures.

Quoting Jetsetter629 (Reply 6):
So does this mean that 4M will have to transfer all of their current flights to EZE?

The international ones operated form AEP, yes.

Quoting abrelosojos (Reply 12):
In my mind, tying these things to a strong word like "discrimination" undervalues the world itself - discrimination is what Mapuche or Rapa Nui natives suffer in Chile. So let's keep things in perspective shall we?

It´s commercial discrimination, bullying, protectionism, whatever word you want to use. I don´t find the term discrimination too distant from what is going on in Argentina commercially with its neighbors. And while I agree with your comment about the native Chileans, this is not the thread to bring that up.

I would suggest though, that for the sake of this thread, which is very interesting, not being locked, certain posts need to be toned down. Let´s keep our heads cool.

[Edited 2011-12-21 15:53:12]
 
JHCRJ700
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RE: Disgusting Discrimination Against LAN Argentina

Wed Dec 21, 2011 11:54 pm

The title hyped this up a little. Just an example of the world we live in. Governments can do and regulate whatever they want. I'm pretty sure LAN will survive this.
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SCL767
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RE: Disgusting Discrimination Against LAN Argentina

Thu Dec 22, 2011 12:04 am

Quoting Gonzalo (Thread starter):
They are forbidding LAN Argentina to operate regional flights from Aeroparque, saying that the reason is the airport is overloaded,

LAN Argentina only operates three daily international flights from AEP: AEP-SCL daily and AEP-GRU 2x daily. LAN Airlines operates SCL-AEP 2x daily. Should LAN Argentina be forced to discontinue its three daily international flights at AEP, LAN Airlines will operate SCL-AEP 3x daily and LAN Argentina would transfer the two daily flights between AEP and GRU back to EZE. The excuse that the ANAC is using in trying to make LAN Argentina transfer its three daily international flights from AEP to EZE is simply false and discriminatory. For example, the Argentine authorities are also trying to block LAN from transferring a third B-767-316ER to LAN Argentina so that LAN Argentina could increase frequency on the EZE-MIA route.
 
Acheron
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RE: Disgusting Discrimination Against LAN Argentina

Thu Dec 22, 2011 12:30 am

I'm suspect the OP wouldn't bat an eyelid if something similar was done in Chile to protect LAN from competition sometime in the future, specially when LAN is on the road to trying to stablish a monopoly on the south-american market with its TAM merger.
 
C010T3
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RE: Disgusting Discrimination Against LAN Argentina

Thu Dec 22, 2011 12:51 am

Now that I have read more descriptive articles about the problem, I understand this specific problem better. Well, it is a scandalous discrimination against an Argentinian private company. If the regulation was really declaring AEP a monopoly for state-owned airlines for international flights, there would be no discussion. Furthermore, it does not seem clear if 4M will be able to retain the slots for domestic service.
 
Gonzalo
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RE: Disgusting Discrimination Against LAN Argentina

Thu Dec 22, 2011 1:02 am

Quoting Acheron (Reply 19):
I'm suspect the OP wouldn't bat an eyelid if something similar was done in Chile to protect LAN from competition sometime in the future, specially when LAN is on the road to trying to stablish a monopoly on the south-american market with its TAM merger.

Your suspicion is incorrect. We have Open Skies, anyone with the money and the correct product can come and try whenever they want. If nobody tries, that is maybe a consequence of the strong position of LAN, and LAN has the position it has because they are doing ( for many years ) the things right. I found really amazing that many people consider any kind of success like a sin. It seems that for some people doing the things wrong and asking later the help of the tax payers is the correct way to do things.

In any case for the LATAM issue, there is another active forum for that discussion.

Rgds.
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CamiloA380
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RE: Disgusting Discrimination Against LAN Argentina

Fri Dec 23, 2011 10:12 pm

Quoting abrelosojos (Reply 12):
Personally, I hardly would think this is discrimination - it is Argentinian law, and if LAN cannot play accordingly, it should perhaps not be in the Argentine marketplace. Pretty simple as that.

In my mind, tying these things to a strong word like "discrimination" undervalues the world itself - discrimination is what Mapuche or Rapa Nui natives suffer in Chile. So let's keep things in perspective shall we?

Saludos,
A

     

I cant agree more!

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 13):
The only reason for the decision of the ANAC is, they don't have a decent airline in the country for decades, and are afraid that LAN and its standard can show to the argentinian people how a decent airline should be.

Maybe this is discrimination? Please, if you are so over your own limits over such a small thing that you cant control yourself from spitting out stupid statements, don't come here and say that LA is the only victim, or at least try to calm down.

With all due respect, the above statement pretty much shows how little you know about 4M and about Argentina.
Lets also respect Argentina and its history, AR was once a great airline (especially in the 80s) and actually bigger than what LAN Chile is today (destination-wise). So if you think LAN can show the Argentinian people how a decent airline should be, you are totally wrong. And while you are accusing ANAC for discrimination (which it isn't - read Abrelosojo's post) you are all of the sudden discriminating the Argentinians with the above statement.

4M sure has taken a big hit by ANAC, but 4M isn't doing very well either, they've been struggling to make profit on some routes, even their AEP-ROS has been a back-and-forth going for them as they seem to do profit and sometimes not in that route. 4M has been thinking of adding ROS-LIM-ROS because it looks like LP will be denied a contract renewal in the LIM-ROS-LIM run. It will make the route AEP-ROS worthwhile because the profit on ROS-LIM-ROS will outweigh the loss in AEP-ROS-AEP.
4M has also had some problems with their crew striking every now and then although not very noticeable, the crew work more than they should sometimes, and get very low pay for that.

AU is also a great competitor to 4M, now that they have added newer aircraft, routes and a new product with PTVs in their E190s, so 4M is not the obvious best choice.

I don't agree with ANAC and their move, but as Abrelosojos said, its the law. 4M will just have to switch their regional operations to EZE, not much of a big deal.
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SCL767
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RE: Disgusting Discrimination Against LAN Argentina

Fri Dec 23, 2011 10:28 pm

Quoting CamiloA380 (Reply 22):
4M sure has taken a big hit by ANAC, but 4M isn't doing very well either, they've been struggling to make profit on some routes, even their AEP-ROS has been a back-and-forth going for them as they seem to do profit and sometimes not in that route.

Get your facts straight! LAN Argentina does not even operate into ROS!

Quoting CamiloA380 (Reply 22):
4M has been thinking of adding ROS-LIM-ROS because it looks like LP will be denied a contract renewal in the LIM-ROS-LIM run. It will make the route AEP-ROS worthwhile because the profit on ROS-LIM-ROS will outweigh the loss in AEP-ROS-AEP.

LAN Perú was just recently authorized to operate the LIM-ROS route daily on a year-round basis!

Quoting CamiloA380 (Reply 22):
4M will just have to switch their regional operations to EZE, not much of a big deal.

The Chilean Government has intervened in the matter and regional flights will continue at AEP for now. The matter will be discussed between both the Chilean and Argentine Presidents when the Argentine President makes an official visit to Santiago de Chile next month. BTW, LAN Argentina just received its 12th A-320 (LV-CSQ) in order to increase frequencies on certain routes and open a new route!
 
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Zkpilot
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RE: Disgusting Discrimination Against LAN Argentina

Sat Dec 24, 2011 6:01 am

I'm not saying there aren't problems in Argentina particularly the aviation sector, but to call discrimination against LAN disgusting is a bit over the top. All over the world airlines are discriminated against (or more correctly excluded), because of national policies/rules. Very few countries operate open-skies in the international sense and many more don't allow domestic open skies either. Usually in both cases an airline has to be at least 51% locally owned. Even then protections are still in place. It is very hard for this to change because the first countries to do this usually end up with damage to their own airline/s or economy. It needs to be a world wide change at the same time organised presumably through ICAO. It is slowly moving this direction but I think it will take at least another 20 years before we have proper open skies in most countries.
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SCL767
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RE: Disgusting Discrimination Against LAN Argentina

Sat Dec 24, 2011 7:02 am

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 24):
I'm not saying there aren't problems in Argentina particularly the aviation sector, but to call discrimination against LAN disgusting is a bit over the top.

The issue is that the Open Skies Treaties between Argentina and both Chile and Perú are disregarded by the ANAC and this is not the first time that LAN has been targeted by the ANAC. Also, LAN Argentina only has two daily frequencies between Argentina and Brazil. For example, LAN was forced to discontinue SCL-BRC a while back, LAN Perú was denied the rights to operate LIM-IGR, and most recently the ANAC rescinded LAN Perú's rights to operate LIM-ROS. However, LAN Perú took the matter to the courts and the LIM-ROS route is now able to continue.

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 24):
Very few countries operate open-skies in the international sense and many more don't allow domestic open skies either. Usually in both cases an airline has to be at least 51% locally owned.

LAN Argentina is 51% locally owned and controls around 20% of the domestic market. However, the current matter pertains to LAN Argentina's three daily international flights at AEP. The airline operates AEP-SCL daily and AEP-GRU 2x daily. By demanding that LAN Argentina move these services to EZE, it clearly discriminates against the carrier in order to protect the loss making state owned carrier. AR operates AEP-GRU 5x daily, AEP-SCL 4x daily and AEP-MDZ-SCL daily and clearly has an advantage over LAN Argentina not only on these particular routes at AEP, but also on the overwhelming majority of domestic routes at AEP. Coincidentally, AR's sister carrier Austral was recently granted the rights to operate regional flights from AEP and can operate into any Chilean airport with out any issues at all. On the bright side, countries such as Chile, Colombia, Perú and even Ecuador have realized that more competition in their respective domestic and international markets only serve to benefit their respective economies.
 
Gonzalo
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RE: Disgusting Discrimination Against LAN Argentina

Sat Dec 24, 2011 3:28 pm

Quoting CamiloA380 (Reply 22):
With all due respect
Quoting CamiloA380 (Reply 22):
control yourself from spitting out stupid statements

Mmm, I can see "a lot of respect" in your post.

Quoting CamiloA380 (Reply 22):
read Abrelosojo's post

I did. And you, like him, are trying to justify the ANAC actions with unrelated things like the Mapuches or with incorrect information , but that fortunately has been already totally clarified by SCL767 with FACTS.


Quoting CamiloA380 (Reply 22):
Lets also respect Argentina and its history, AR was once a great airline (especially in the 80s) and actually bigger than what LAN Chile is today (destination-wise).

Yes, AR was big. Pan Am and Eastern were big too. I live in the present, not 30 years ago. The current situation of AR is a shame, and the fact that the management is conducted by La Cámpora is the worst signal of the troubled times ahead for this airline.

Quoting CamiloA380 (Reply 22):
4M will just have to switch their regional operations to EZE, not much of a big deal.

That's not the big deal !!!!! ...... THIS is the big deal :

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 25):
the Open Skies Treaties between Argentina and both Chile and Perú are disregarded by the ANAC

If you are not capable of accept, with an objective attitude, that this is against the rules of the game, well...no comments.

G.
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Arcano
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RE: Disgusting Discrimination Against LAN Argentina

Sat Dec 24, 2011 8:11 pm

Yes, it's discrimination everytime regulators don't apply the same rule for all competitors in certain industry. You can agree with it calling regulation or national strategy in specific sectors, or you can disagree by claiming freedom in business as key to development promoting the concept of "subsidiary state" (which claims thet governments should play a role only when private companies are unable or not interested in business).

Anyway, Argentina is a sorveign country that can run itself as they want. Is a matter of the Argentine people to judge their gobernment and the way they're ruling the country. The recent re-election of Mrs. Fernandez seem to show they like it...

As some very personal opinion I like better the Chilean policy of open skies, I think it trends to better competition in terms of service and fair, but It's just a matter of opinion. It's a little disrespectful to call foregneirs policies as "disgusting". Still, I will always promote open skies, freedom in business and policies that promote investment.

Anyway as stated above, If AR have to learn something from LA about how to be a great airline, LA should do it too by learning a llitle more of Cathay or Singapore. There're so much better airlines around than LAN!

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CamiloA380
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RE: Disgusting Discrimination Against LAN Argentina

Sun Dec 25, 2011 9:44 am

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 23):
Get your facts straight! LAN Argentina does not even operate into ROS!

When did I say they operate that route today? If it appears so, then I'm sorry, didn't mean exactly that.

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 23):
LAN Perú was just recently authorized to operate the LIM-ROS route daily on a year-round basis!

The new extension is to 28th Feb in order to not affect the passengers who are booked for the summer season, if you call that year-round basis...

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 26):
Mmm, I can see "a lot of respect" in your post.

I can see your sensitiveness doesn't help.

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 26):
I did. And you, like him, are trying to justify the ANAC actions with unrelated things like the Mapuches

Because it would be a far better use of the term "disgusting discrimination".

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 26):
Yes, AR was big. Pan Am and Eastern were big too. I live in the present, not 30 years ago

Thats good. But if you read what I quoted again, you should realize that what you're saying seems to be in total disrespect of what AR once was, like if AR has always been in the embarrassment it is now since its foundation... anyways..

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 26):
The current situation of AR is a shame, and the fact that the management is conducted by La Cámpora is the worst signal of the troubled times ahead for this airline.

Exactly.

Quoting Arcano (Reply 27):
As some very personal opinion I like better the Chilean policy of open skies, I think it trends to better competition in terms of service and fair, but It's just a matter of opinion. It's a little disrespectful to call foregneirs policies as "disgusting"

Fully agreed.

Quoting Arcano (Reply 27):
Anyway as stated above, If AR have to learn something from LA about how to be a great airline, LA should do it too by learning a llitle more of Cathay or Singapore. There're so much better airlines around than LAN!

Again, fully agreed.
Flying4Ever!
 
mandala499
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RE: Disgusting Discrimination Against LAN Argentina

Sun Dec 25, 2011 10:16 am

Quoting Gonzalo (Thread starter):
Can LAN Argentina ask for help to somebody here ? ICAO ? IATA ? WTO ? Chilean Gov ? Who can help in a situation like this ?

Because 4M is effectively, an Argentinian company, it is purely an Argentinian issue, and not something for ICAO, IATA, WTO or for the Chilean government to meddle around in "Non-Chilano company legally registered outside Chile".

Quoting rojo (Reply 10):
We all know that domestic operations in Argentina are not profitable since prices are regulated by the government. AR is the only airline flying to many small airports because the government wants to maintain connectivity, but taxpayers in Argentina are the ones taking the bill...

The Argentinian government can rightly provide the following alternatives:
1. Ask 4M to move it's international operations to EZE.
2. Allow 4M to keep whatever international AEP service it has, like AR is allowed to, but on condition that 4M be mandated to operate to those "many small airports because the government wants to maintain connectivity," to keep it fair...
... but then, if #2 is chosen as the outcome, then I won't be surprised if someone then says "being forced to fly to some of those small unprofitable airports is another discriminatory act by the Argentinian government."

Quoting abrelosojos (Reply 12):
Personally, I hardly would think this is discrimination - it is Argentinian law, and if LAN cannot play accordingly, it should perhaps not be in the Argentine marketplace. Pretty simple as that.

Argentina has a history of protecting AR and its affiliate, that is a well known fact. Even for someone like me on the other side of the world. That "fact" is not a new discovery. The history on LAPA and Southern Wind shows that! Now why should anyone be surprised with the current 'discrimination' against 4M (which is an Argentinian company with a Chilano brand)? Nothing new here. That's Argentina unfortunately.

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 13):
Oh really ? Can you then explain why this situation ONLY affects LAN ? When you apply a restriction to only one ( person, company, organization ) among others who play the game under the same rules and pay the same taxes, that is discrimination. Period.

ONLY? LAPA? Southern Wind? And now LANArgentina... nothing new... it's the same old game in Argentina.
If you want non-Argentinian companies, LA, PU, LP, etc, have faced issues with the regulators there... 4M doesn't come into this category.

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 13):
The only reason for the decision of the ANAC is, they don't have a decent airline in the country for decades, and are afraid that LAN and its standard can show to the argentinian people how a decent airline should be.

LA or 4M? You're getting confused here. It's not about targetting 4M... it's about Argentina's policy of protecting AR... LAPA and SouthernWind went down the drain before... and some would say that LAPA was worse than AR, and the government just turned a blind eye on policies against it... And no, they weren't afraid that LAPA and its standards can show to the Argentinian people how a decent airline should be... they were just afraid of anyone competing with AR. Even if "world's worst airline" starts tomorrow in AEP, it's still competition to AR and it'll be "removed in time"... that's the sad reality!

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 20):
Well, it is a scandalous discrimination against an Argentinian private company. If the regulation was really declaring AEP a monopoly for state-owned airlines for international flights, there would be no discussion.

"Scandalous discrimination against an Argentinian private company" is absolutely correct. And yes, if the regulators in Argentina have the guts to say AEP international fligths is the exclusive domain for AR and it's associates, well, then it's an OpenSkies issue and not discrimination against 4M.

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 21):
We have Open Skies, anyone with the money and the correct product can come and try whenever they want.

Here's a question, what is the extent of the OpenSkies down there?
Does it extend to 5th Freedom Rights? 6th Freedom Rights? Does it come with conditions such as "OpenSkies gateways", and if so, does AEP come under an unconditional OpenSkies gateway or not? "OpenSkies" are rarely truly an Open Sky!

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 23):
Get your facts straight! LAN Argentina does not even operate into ROS!

That's the whole point. 4M does not operate into ROS... it did. Now, did ROS 4M flights end because of governmental lunacy, or because 4M couldn't make the flights work profitably?

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 23):
The Chilean Government has intervened in the matter and regional flights will continue at AEP for now.

Which should cover either:
1. International flights to AEP by anyone (with no restrictions); or
2. International flights by an equal number of carriers from the home country and the counterpart country for the city pairs (which if AR and LA are the only designated ones for AEP-SCL, 4M should really just move to EZE for Intl and shut up if this method is chosen... and if AU and LA are chosen as AEP-Chilano cities except for SCL, 4M should really just move to EZE for Intl and shut up).

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 25):
LAN Argentina is 51% locally owned and controls around 20% of the domestic market.

It is therefore an Argentinian country. Nothing for the Chilean government to even pay attention to it other than "protecting the rights of foreign investments in Argentina".

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 25):
The airline operates AEP-SCL daily and AEP-GRU 2x daily.
Quoting SCL767 (Reply 25):
By demanding that LAN Argentina move these services to EZE, it clearly discriminates against the carrier in order to protect the loss making state owned carrier. AR operates AEP-GRU 5x daily, AEP-SCL 4x daily and AEP-MDZ-SCL daily and clearly has an advantage over LAN Argentina not only on these particular routes at AEP, but also on the overwhelming majority of domestic routes at AEP. Coincidentally, AR's sister carrier Austral was recently granted the rights to operate regional flights from AEP and can operate into any Chilean airport with out any issues at all.

The flaw here really is the unclear 2 airport policy for BAires. Brazil sorted CGH/GRU and SDU/GIG out, so we don't get this mess. The Argentinian government should make it's AEP policy clear and consistent. Until that happens, AR can just pick up the phone and ask the regulators to become its slave.

And for the most objective Chilean reply of this topic:

Quoting Arcano (Reply 27):
You can agree with it calling regulation or national strategy in specific sectors, or you can disagree by claiming freedom in business as key to development promoting the concept of "subsidiary state" (which claims thet governments should play a role only when private companies are unable or not interested in business).

Spot on!

Quoting Arcano (Reply 27):
Anyway, Argentina is a sorveign country that can run itself as they want. Is a matter of the Argentine people to judge their gobernment and the way they're ruling the country. The recent re-election of Mrs. Fernandez seem to show they like it...

So, don't blame AR... blame the country, its people and its government for chosing to continue down this path...

Quoting Arcano (Reply 27):
As some very personal opinion I like better the Chilean policy of open skies, I think it trends to better competition in terms of service and fair, but It's just a matter of opinion. It's a little disrespectful to call foregneirs policies as "disgusting". Still, I will always promote open skies, freedom in business and policies that promote investment.

Spot on!

Quoting Arcano (Reply 27):
Anyway as stated above, If AR have to learn something from LA about how to be a great airline, LA should do it too by learning a llitle more of Cathay or Singapore. There're so much better airlines around than LAN!

This is the best comment of all! Sure, LAN is better than AR, but that doesn't mean that LAN is good. (And it's not hard to be better than AR!)
*and I wish LAN would change the interior (the maroon panelling on the front of J class) make it look like a flying morgue or antique shop! (sarcasm alert!  &nbsp *

Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
SCL767
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RE: Disgusting Discrimination Against LAN Argentina

Sun Dec 25, 2011 10:44 am

Quoting CamiloA380 (Reply 28):

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 23):
LAN Perú was just recently authorized to operate the LIM-ROS route daily on a year-round basis!

The new extension is to 28th Feb in order to not affect the passengers who are booked for the summer season, if you call that year-round basis...

It is highly likely that it will be extended since AR is restructuring its operations at ROS.
http://bit.ly/rNdyTS

Also, SCL-IQQ-SLA will operate 2x weekly for the high season. LAN and its affiliates will continue to increase flights into EZE. LAN will soon operate the SCL-EZE route 50x weekly and LAN Perú S.A. will also increase frequency on the LIM-EZE route. Which means more passengers from BUE can connect via SCL and/or LIM. LAN Ecuador now operates the UIO-GYE-EZE route daily. Of course LAN and TAM will have a significant presence at EZE and AEP after the transaction is finalized. Hopefully the ANAC will allow LAN to transfer another B-767-316ER to 4M next year so that 4M can operate EZE-MIA 10x weekly since LAN has 11 new B-767-316ERs on order and 7 will be delivered next year alone. 4M's daily non-stop service on the EZE-MIA route is very profitable; unlike AR's daily service.
 
aerokiwi
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RE: Disgusting Discrimination Against LAN Argentina

Sun Dec 25, 2011 11:18 am

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 29):
So, don't blame AR... blame the country, its people and its government for chosing to continue down this path...

What a strange approach. That doesn't invalidate the OP's raising of the issue and questioning whether or not it is protectionism/discrimination. Otherwise you could argue the same for every ountry, and a whole lot of topics suddenly disappear from discussion, which is absurd.

It's a valid topic. The OP raises very valid points.

Quoting CamiloA380 (Reply 28):
Thats good. But if you read what I quoted again, you should realize that what you're saying seems to be in total disrespect of what AR once was,

Good lord! You appear to be the only one offended at the thought of AR's history being sullied. I have been stuck on this godforsaken airline precisely once, for a conference, and it was by far and away the worst airline experience of my life. Just atrocious, and that was in 2003. It's been a basket case for a while now.
 
SCL767
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RE: Disgusting Discrimination Against LAN Argentina

Sun Dec 25, 2011 11:45 am

Quoting aerokiwi (Reply 31):
What a strange approach. That doesn't invalidate the OP's raising of the issue and questioning whether or not it is protectionism/discrimination.

Indeed, it's just another example of discrimination against LAN Argentina since the ANAC claims that AEP is congested and the only carrier requested to move its regional flights over to EZE is LAN Argentina, (4M only operates three daily regional flights at AEP). Coincidentally, next month AR will increase frequency on the AEP-GRU route to 6x daily, even though AEP is "congested".
 
mandala499
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RE: Disgusting Discrimination Against LAN Argentina

Sun Dec 25, 2011 11:46 am

Quoting aerokiwi (Reply 31):
It's a valid topic. The OP raises very valid points.

I'm sorry if you missed my point, but... the question on the Argentinian government's actions is very valid!
But, for the following:

Quoting Gonzalo (Thread starter):
Can LAN Argentina ask for help to somebody here ? ICAO ? IATA ? WTO ? Chilean Gov ? Who can help in a situation like this ?

ICAO doesn't deal with these kinds of issues. IATA don't either, since 4M is an Argentinian company, and cross out WTO and Chilean Govt...

The point that you quoted, was to reiterate what Arcano said:

Quoting Arcano (Reply 27):
Anyway, Argentina is a sorveign country that can run itself as they want. Is a matter of the Argentine people to judge their gobernment and the way they're ruling the country. The recent re-election of Mrs. Fernandez seem to show they like it...

Why did I tie it down with AR? Because:

Quoting rojo (Reply 10):
We all know that domestic operations in Argentina are not profitable since prices are regulated by the government. AR is the only airline flying to many small airports because the government wants to maintain connectivity, but taxpayers in Argentina are the ones taking the bill...

to which I added:

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 29):
The Argentinian government can rightly provide the following alternatives:
1. Ask 4M to move it's international operations to EZE.
2. Allow 4M to keep whatever international AEP service it has, like AR is allowed to, but on condition that 4M be mandated to operate to those "many small airports because the government wants to maintain connectivity," to keep it fair...
... but then, if #2 is chosen as the outcome, then I won't be surprised if someone then says "being forced to fly to some of those small unprofitable airports is another discriminatory act by the Argentinian government."

If AR is freed from the "state owned enterprises duties", and continue to act like it does now, then the blame is solely on AR. One cannot blame AR for the stuff it does without looking at the stuff which they are obliged to do and the others aren't.

I'm interested if the OP would accept that fairness can go both ways and that #2 above, should be an acceptable proposition... If not, then I'd like to know why...

Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
SCL767
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RE: Disgusting Discrimination Against LAN Argentina

Sun Dec 25, 2011 12:05 pm

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 33):
I'm interested if the OP would accept that fairness can go both ways and that #2 above, should be an acceptable proposition... If not, then I'd like to know why...

Who says that LAN Argentina does not want to continue expanding domestically with-in Argentina to smaller cities? LAN Argentina was hoping to open two new domestic destinations this year, but was only permitted to open one new domestic destination, (BHI). LAN Argentina would like to serve destinations such as IRJ, JUJ, MDQ, RES, etc. Would the ANAC permit LAN Argentina to operate into these destinations?
 
MD11junkie
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RE: Disgusting Discrimination Against LAN Argentina

Sun Dec 25, 2011 12:36 pm

I'm sorry, Gonzalo.

I still haven't seen any kind of "Resolution" by the ANAC - they should be published.
So... where's the discrimination? Sorry, those articles are BS still.

Thank you CamiloA380, C010T3 for reading outside newspaper articles with an Agenda.

Saludos,
There is no such thing as Boeing vs Airbus as the queen of the skies has three engines, winglets and the sweetest nose!
 
C010T3
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RE: Disgusting Discrimination Against LAN Argentina

Sun Dec 25, 2011 1:27 pm

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 29):
well, then it's an OpenSkies issue and not discrimination against 4M.

I'm not even discussing the discrimination against foreign airlines at AEP. That has already happened when it opened for Southern Cone traffic. The Argentinian government has the right to declare a monopoly, but that would only be valid for Argentinian airlines, not foreign. That was what I meant.

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 29):
The flaw here really is the unclear 2 airport policy for BAires. Brazil sorted CGH/GRU and SDU/GIG out, so we don't get this mess.

There was never something to sort out there. There was never duplicity between these airports in terms of international traffic.

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 32):
Indeed, it's just another example of discrimination against LAN Argentina since the ANAC claims that AEP is congested and the only carrier requested to move its regional flights over to EZE is LAN Argentina, (4M only operates three daily regional flights at AEP). Coincidentally, next month AR will increase frequency on the AEP-GRU route to 6x daily, even though AEP is "congested".

The ANAC could have slashed flights at AEP without any problem if they had followed logic. They could have declared specific time frames as congested and specified how many hourly operations were to be allowed. Then, they would have defined how many flights would have to be moved to EZE or cancelled. If it were 10% of the flights, each airline would have to submit to the ANAC the 10% they would cancel or move. 4M would have the choice to slash domestic flights, not only international.
 
mandala499
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RE: Disgusting Discrimination Against LAN Argentina

Sun Dec 25, 2011 2:01 pm

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 34):
LAN Argentina would like to serve destinations such as IRJ, JUJ, MDQ, RES, etc.

IRJ, JUJ, MDQ, RES??? They're not those "many small airports because the government wants to maintain connectivity,"

I'm talking about places like REL, RGA, VDM, EQL, RSA, CPC, LUQ, EQS... some of them are like 1x daily only from anywhere?
And then all those airports LADE serve (why the hell does LADE exist in these day in age?)

But then, why do these flights get served from AEP goes beyond me. AEP should be reserved to places that need quick downtown BAires access... not some remote place with 1x daily flights... (and yet some complain those cities don't have intl access? Maybe 4M should play hero and serve those cities from EZE?)

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 36):
That was what I meant.

My reply by quoting what you wrote was not directed at you but at our 2 Chilean friends.

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 36):
The ANAC could have slashed flights at AEP without any problem if they had followed logic......
.... Then, they would have defined how many flights would have to be moved to EZE or cancelled. If it were 10% of the flights, each airline would have to submit to the ANAC the 10% they would cancel or move. 4M would have the choice to slash domestic flights, not only international.

SPOT ON! ANAC should make the rules "clear" with regards to AEP... regardless of whether or not 4M is complaining or not, or discriminated against or not.

Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
SCL767
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RE: Disgusting Discrimination Against LAN Argentina

Sun Dec 25, 2011 2:02 pm

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 36):
If it were 10% of the flights, each airline would have to submit to the ANAC the 10% they would cancel or move. 4M would have the choice to slash domestic flights, not only international.

IMO, 4M wouldn't slash its three daily international flights at AEP; especially considering that AR operates significantly more international flights at AEP. However, should 4M be required to cancel, slash or transfer domestic flights, LAN has many options. Certain domestic flights operating via EZE may prove to be more lucrative operating via EZE since feed from destinations such as ASU, DFW, GIG, GRU, GYE, JFK, LHR, LIM, MAD, MIA, etc. are available via EZE. 4M just received its 12th A-320, it will be interesting to see where LAN deploys the a/c. Also, LAN wants to transfer a third B-767-316ER over to LAN Argentina in order to operate the EZE-MIA route 10x weekly non-stop. Let's see if the ANAC will permit 4M to receive the a/c. If 4M is required to cancel a certain number of flights, LAN could deploy the affected pilots and a/c elsewhere.
 
Arcano
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RE: Disgusting Discrimination Against LAN Argentina

Sun Dec 25, 2011 3:29 pm

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 29):
Here's a question, what is the extent of the OpenSkies down there?
Does it extend to 5th Freedom Rights? 6th Freedom Rights? Does it come with conditions such as "OpenSkies gateways", and if so, does AEP come under an unconditional OpenSkies gateway or not? "OpenSkies" are rarely truly an Open Sky!

Regarding this thread we mean under Chilean regulation there's no limit for foreigners to own airlines in Chile when forming a Chilean company, so no XX% of domestic capital required for starting an airline. Anyone can invest here, in most of industries (if not all of them, not sure though what sector might have restrictions, no one that I can recall now).

The freedoms will depend on bilateral agreements with the other country, wich is not related with the ownership of a local airline.

This is why PU can fly domestically (which of course I celebrate). Our skies are so open that, for example, I remember when Aerocontinente was banned to fly and only LA remained as domestic airline, there was an attempt of asking Lloyd Aereo Boliviano to serve out northen routes domestically in their way to LPB, even when we don't have such agreements with Bolivia and, as known, we have issues and don't even have diplomatic relations.

To bad we are a country with such a small population, our regulation would make as a paradise of aviation!

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 29):
Nothing for the Chilean government to even pay attention to it other than "protecting the rights of foreign investments in Argentina".

I guess it has something to do with reciprocity explained above, which goverments are demanded to pay attention to.

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 32):
discrimination against LAN Argentina since the ANAC claims that AEP is congested and the only carrier requested to move its regional flights over to EZE is LAN Argentina,

I think this is the core of the thread.
in order: 721,146,732,763,722,343,733,320,772,319,752,321,88,83,744,332,100,738, 333, 318, 77W, 78, 773, 380, 73G, 788, 789, 346
 
SCL767
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RE: Disgusting Discrimination Against LAN Argentina

Sun Dec 25, 2011 3:48 pm

Quoting Arcano (Reply 39):
To bad we are a country with such a small population, our regulation would make as a paradise of aviation!

For a small country, domestic travel is increasing dramatically with-in Chile, (a 20% increase compared to last year). PU's entrance in the Chilean domestic market will be interesting since they will be competing with three other domestic carriers, and of course those carriers will respond with lower airfares. International travel is increasing rapidly as well. Next year, more intercontinental routes will operate from SCL as well, i.e. QF is dumping EZE for SCL and LAN's partner CX is interested in SCL as well! Also, LAN will be the third carrier in the world to operate the B-787 Dreamliner, making certain long-haul routes from SCL viable.
 
2travel2know2
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RE: Disgusting Discrimination Against LAN Argentina

Sun Dec 25, 2011 4:41 pm

If 4M was to move all its operations (except, perhaps some strategically timed AEP-COR/MDZ, even AEP-TUC/SLA daily frequencies) to EZE would the Argentine passenger use EZE instead of AR @ AEP?
If that ever happens, there'll come the moment AR monopoly @ AEP would take a toll on service and punctuality. How many times a passenger flying domestic out of AEP would then have to endure flying AR before changing to 4M out of EZE?
I'm not on CM's payroll.
 
Arcano
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RE: Disgusting Discrimination Against LAN Argentina

Sun Dec 25, 2011 4:56 pm

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 40):
LAN will be the third carrier in the world to operate the B-787 Dreamliner, making certain long-haul routes from SCL viable.

Really the third? Aren't those from Asia and even Africa coming first? It would be great! Though following Lan psyche, I think we'll have to look first in LIM rather than SCL
in order: 721,146,732,763,722,343,733,320,772,319,752,321,88,83,744,332,100,738, 333, 318, 77W, 78, 773, 380, 73G, 788, 789, 346
 
SCL767
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RE: Disgusting Discrimination Against LAN Argentina

Sun Dec 25, 2011 5:14 pm

Quoting Arcano (Reply 42):

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 40):
LAN will be the third carrier in the world to operate the B-787 Dreamliner, making certain long-haul routes from SCL viable.

Really the third? Aren't those from Asia and even Africa coming first? It would be great! Though following Lan psyche, I think we'll have to look first in LIM rather than SCL

ANA and JAL are the two first B-787 operators respectively. Considering that LATAM is looking towards doubling its fleet, it will give LATAM significant leverage power with aircraft manufacturers. LAN has #10 and #16 and is a RR Trent 1000 customer. LAN may initially deploy its first B-787-8 on the SCL-LIM route and either the SCL-GRU or SCL-EZE routes for crew familiarization purposes. However, the B-787-8s will allow LAN to operate new long-haul routes from SCL, i.e. LHR, as well as on existing routes. For example, LAN is currently operating the SCL-LAX route 3x weekly with the A-340 twice weekly and the B763 weekly. The B-787-8 is the perfect a/c for LAN to operate the SCL-LAX route on a year-round basis.
 
Gonzalo
Topic Author
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RE: Disgusting Discrimination Against LAN Argentina

Mon Dec 26, 2011 2:31 am

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 33):
I'm interested if the OP would accept that fairness can go both ways and that #2 above, should be an acceptable proposition... If not, then I'd like to know why...

Mandala499

I don't understand why, after following all the local legislation about an airline operation in the country, LAN has to make any concessions to the ANAC only for the benefit of its competitors. The Argentinian passengers are not obtaining any benefit from this. This action from the ANAC is just another shameless move to try to benefit AR ( what a coincidence   )
It will be nice if Argentina could respect the rules of the game once, for a change.



Quoting mandala499 (Reply 37):
ANAC should make the rules "clear" with regards to AEP...

For what ?? Who can be sure that the clear rules of today will not be changed again by this "very serious" people tomorrow or the next month ?? Would you be comfortable doing business with someone who change the rules of the game twice a year like this clowns do ??

Quoting md11JUNKIE (Reply 35):
I'm sorry, Gonzalo.

I'm sorry too Gastón. I'm sorry for the people of Argentina, they will have less and less options to make a choice every day thanks to the ANAC. And like you know very well, is not necessary the publication of the official law for turn into reality the wishes of the Queen Cristina. If she wants to erase LAN form AEP, Her Will be accomplished, regardless what the ANAC officially publishes or not.

Quoting Arcano (Reply 39):
Quoting SCL767 (Reply 32):
discrimination against LAN Argentina since the ANAC claims that AEP is congested and the only carrier requested to move its regional flights over to EZE is LAN Argentina,

I think this is the core of the thread.

Exactly.

Rgds.
G.
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