murchmo
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UPS Pilots Suing FAA. Don't Want To Fly Tired.

Fri Dec 23, 2011 12:21 pm

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...cs/2017071505_apustiredpilots.html

Didn't see this posted and think It merits its own discussion. Either way I was surprised as I assumed the new regulations would include cargo ops.


"The FAA has said forcing cargo carriers to reduce the number of hours their pilots can fly would be too costly when compared with the safety benefits. Imposing the rules on cargo airlines like Federal Express or UPS would have added another $214 million to the cost, FAA officials said."

I've been taught to think critically. This just kind of makes the FAA look dumb. imHo.


$$$

[Edited 2011-12-23 04:29:32]
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RE: UPS Pilots Suing FAA. Don't Want To Fly Tired.

Fri Dec 23, 2011 1:44 pm

Quoting murchmo (Thread starter):
I've been taught to think critically. This just kind of makes the FAA look dumb. imHo.

If that is true, you might want to read

FAA Pilot Fatigue Rules To Be Announced 12/21/11 (by HAL Dec 20 2011 in Civil Aviation)

In case it doesn't come through, I'm talking about reply 54 specifically.

It's a glimpse as to how those making the other side of the argument (not necessarily Tom himself) look at the situation.

After reading it, I'm torn. My emotional side says a life is a life is a life, and that's what I will go with, but my logical side has a hard time ignoring the statistics of it all.
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murchmo
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RE: UPS Pilots Suing FAA. Don't Want To Fly Tired.

Fri Dec 23, 2011 2:23 pm

Revelation, I know what you mean. I read the discussion and that post. This is not an easy discussion.

[Edited 2011-12-23 06:41:10]
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RE: UPS Pilots Suing FAA. Don't Want To Fly Tired.

Fri Dec 23, 2011 2:47 pm

We're on the same wavelength.

Personally, I don't see why we can't pay a few cents more per package, or see more stuff go by ground or ship, or see some profit target missed so we can have a safer air cargo industry.

The largest US freight carriers are impacted equally by this and also are in the ground business too so I don't see why they fight tooth and nail over such things.

The industry has a lot of sheltering from foreign competition so I feel they should be held to a higher standard. The current work rules just don't pass muster now that airlines routinely schedule up to the limits, so they need to be changed.
Inspiration, move me brightly! Light the song with sense and color.
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wingnutmn
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RE: UPS Pilots Suing FAA. Don't Want To Fly Tired.

Fri Dec 23, 2011 2:55 pm

Basically what the FAA has said is that packages are not as important as people. Its OK for a cargo pilot to be fautiged, and if we lose a couple cargo planes in the process, we are still saving 214 million dollars. How will the FAA c.y.a. if we lose a cargo plane in a large city that kills many on the ground, and fact find number one is pilots that were fautiged. The bigger joke here is the line about how the FAA want cargo carriers to opt in volintarily. They just lobbied the hell out of you to stay out of these new rules!

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RE: UPS Pilots Suing FAA. Don't Want To Fly Tired.

Fri Dec 23, 2011 3:03 pm

Quoting wingnutmn (Reply 4):
Its OK for a cargo pilot to be fautiged, and if we lose a couple cargo planes in the process, we are still saving 214 million dollars. How will the FAA c.y.a. if we lose a cargo plane in a large city that kills many on the ground, and fact find number one is pilots that were fautiged.

Indeed if that happens things will change. However as Tom pointed out, it's not at all likely, statistically. However I'd rather err on the side of caution and reason, and to me the current limits as currently being applied are not reasonable.
Inspiration, move me brightly! Light the song with sense and color.
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Faced with mysteries dark and vast, statements just seem vain at last.
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ck8msp
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RE: UPS Pilots Suing FAA. Don't Want To Fly Tired.

Fri Dec 23, 2011 4:40 pm

If the Colgan crash had been a cargo feeder do you think we would even be looking at these new rules?
 
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RE: UPS Pilots Suing FAA. Don't Want To Fly Tired.

Fri Dec 23, 2011 4:58 pm

Quoting wingnutmn (Reply 4):
How will the FAA c.y.a. if we lose a cargo plane in a large city that kills many on the ground, and fact find number one is pilots that were fautiged.

Do what they always do: blame the pilots for flying when they were fatigued.

Quoting ck8msp (Reply 6):
If the Colgan crash had been a cargo feeder do you think we would even be looking at these new rules?

Not a chance.

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RE: UPS Pilots Suing FAA. Don't Want To Fly Tired.

Fri Dec 23, 2011 4:58 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 5):
Indeed if that happens things will change. However as Tom pointed out, it's not at all likely, statistically.

If they looked at a difference in time space when pax and cargo carriers operate their number may work, who knows they may have done so. Pax and cargo carriers share the same airspace more so than major airports, so certainely a fatigued cargo pilot can wreck havoc if flying in "prime time", if out-side of "primt time" the risk numbers go down.
 
shufflemoomin
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RE: UPS Pilots Suing FAA. Don't Want To Fly Tired.

Fri Dec 23, 2011 5:06 pm

I'm confused. What difference does it make to safety upfront if the plane's is carrying passengers or cargo? That seems irrelevant to me. That's like saying "it's okay to drive tired or drunk, I'm a courier!".
 
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RE: UPS Pilots Suing FAA. Don't Want To Fly Tired.

Fri Dec 23, 2011 6:26 pm

Quoting shufflemoomin (Reply 9):
What difference does it make to safety upfront if the plane's is carrying passengers or cargo?

Speaking statistically, if you assign X to the cost of a life, then the economic impact of cargo plane crashing is probably 2X or so whereas a pax plane is probably 150X or more. Unfortunately that is the way FAA looks at it. The claim is made they are forced by regulation to look at it this way, although I'm not sure that's what the law mandates. To me it sounds like a convenient formalism that benefits the industry.

Also, losses on the ground are not statistically expected to be high. Statistically, most planes crash into unpopulated or lightly populated terrain.

As above, I don't think these rules should be made on the basis of raw statistics alone! I think the current rules aren't reasonable for cargo carriers, given how the airlines frequently schedule right up to the limits for days on end. I think the current rules need to change.
Inspiration, move me brightly! Light the song with sense and color.
Hold away despair, more than this I will not ask.
Faced with mysteries dark and vast, statements just seem vain at last.
Some rise, some fall, some climb, to get to Terrapin!
 
jetblast
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RE: UPS Pilots Suing FAA. Don't Want To Fly Tired.

Fri Dec 23, 2011 6:41 pm

Quoting ck8msp (Reply 6):
If the Colgan crash had been a cargo feeder do you think we would even be looking at these new rules?

If it was a feeder I doubt we would have even heard about it on the news, much less had the FAA carrying out industry-changing investigations.

Quoting shufflemoomin (Reply 9):
That's like saying "it's okay to drive tired or drunk, I'm a courier!".


Agreed 100%.
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RE: UPS Pilots Suing FAA. Don't Want To Fly Tired.

Fri Dec 23, 2011 6:45 pm

Plenty of people die in work related accidents each year. Many of them are people without even 1/10th of the lifestyle and safety protections enjoyed by the people concerned above. Perfect safety would be good, but I have a hunch safety is not the motivation; building ranks of dues payers is.
 
tdscanuck
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RE: UPS Pilots Suing FAA. Don't Want To Fly Tired.

Fri Dec 23, 2011 6:51 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 10):
The claim is made they are forced by regulation to look at it this way, although I'm not sure that's what the law mandates.

I think the law is vaguer on exactly what is required; I don't think you could show that they're forced to do it this way. However, they absolutely do do it this way and have been doing it that way for a very long time. They have to do something like it or else you'd find them regulating multi-billion dollar fixes to save a single life.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 10):
To me it sounds like a convenient formalism that benefits the industry.

It benefits passengers too...if all possible safety improvements that the NTSB popped out of every investigation were regulated into law, most of us couldn't afford to fly and the industry would be a tiny fraction of what it is. You have to have some way to decide what makes sense and what doesn't.

Tom.
 
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RE: UPS Pilots Suing FAA. Don't Want To Fly Tired.

Fri Dec 23, 2011 7:12 pm

There is an existing thread on "Pilot Fatigue Rules" open for discussion. Please make use of the existing thread, which can be found here: FAA Pilot Fatigue Rules To Be Announced 12/21/11.

This thread will be locked for further contributions. Please note that posts added, after the thread lock, will be removed for housekeeping purposes only.

Rgds

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