drerx7
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UA Crossfleeting At IAH...747coming?

Sun Dec 25, 2011 3:38 pm

Merry CHRISTmas a.net -

Per the good fellows at houstonspotters.net:
"So I talked to my man at United operations this morning, and I asked,"Hey when is United gonna bring some 747s or 777s in here?" And he said that the 3rd quarter of next year 747s will be flying the Narita route outta either gate C14,C16 or D3..they already have begun to draw the gate outlines and will soon redo the service roads.."

I am anxious to see if this comes to fruition and what the breakdown of UA birds at IAH will be come this spring. Also I wonder if PMUA birds will begin to utilize the rest of the IAH terminal complex?
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avi8
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RE: UA Crossfleeting At IAH...747coming?

Sun Dec 25, 2011 7:07 pm

I would also ask which planes are coming to IAH to perform any type of route. By that I mean how many of each aircraft will be based there and if UA will choose to leave a large fleet of 737's there.
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kiwiandrew

RE: UA Crossfleeting At IAH...747coming?

Sun Dec 25, 2011 7:23 pm

I guess if they put it onto IAH-NRT they won't actually need to base aircraft or crews in IAH, they can simply take one of the existing NRT 744 arrivals and instead of turning around back to it's original destination they can fly NRT-IAH-NRT with it. Obviously this might result in changes to the current operating time, but it may be the most efficient way to put the aircraft on the route.
 
washingtonian
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RE: UA Crossfleeting At IAH...747coming?

Sun Dec 25, 2011 7:26 pm

Wouldn't surprise me. NRT or HKG-EWR on the 747 would be at a competitive disadvantage; NRT-IAH seems like a good choice.
 
justloveplanes
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RE: UA Crossfleeting At IAH...747coming?

Sun Dec 25, 2011 7:44 pm

Quoting washingtonian (Reply 3):
Wouldn't surprise me. NRT or HKG-EWR on the 747 would be at a competitive disadvantage; NRT-IAH seems like a good choice

Curious as to why the 744 as a disadvantage... Fuel Burn or something else? 77E is better?
 
washingtonian
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RE: UA Crossfleeting At IAH...747coming?

Sun Dec 25, 2011 7:47 pm

Quoting justloveplanes (Reply 4):
Curious as to why the 744 as a disadvantage... Fuel Burn or something else? 77E is better?

I meant in terms of the product being offered. While the premium product is competitive with other carriers, the back cabin in the 747 is very dated. It probably wouldn't be a big deal on NRT-IAH, but I doubt United can compete well against JAL, ANA, American, and Delta on NRT-NYC with the dated product. They also will probably want some consistency going forward such as all longhaul flights out of Newark having AVOD or something like that.
 
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RE: UA Crossfleeting At IAH...747coming?

Sun Dec 25, 2011 7:50 pm

I dont know. CO's 777's are much nicer than UA's 744's. I would want to keep the 777 on IAH-NRT if I were a Houston based flyer.
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drerx7
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RE: UA Crossfleeting At IAH...747coming?

Sun Dec 25, 2011 8:22 pm

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 6):
I dont know. CO's 777's are much nicer than UA's 744's. I would want to keep the 777 on IAH-NRT if I were a Houston based flyer.

True...but its all about that 3 class.
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sac
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RE: UA Crossfleeting At IAH...747coming?

Sun Dec 25, 2011 9:53 pm

Just because an aircraft has three classes on it does not mean it will make money on a certain route. How many first class seat are filled by full fare paying customers versus upgrades?
 
tommy767
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RE: UA Crossfleeting At IAH...747coming?

Mon Dec 26, 2011 12:10 am

I don't think Jeff really cares if the UA 744 is a downgrade from the CO 777 from a coach perspective. If the economics permit, expect them to start up the route. IAH-NRT on the 747 is a great call.
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drerx7
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RE: UA Crossfleeting At IAH...747coming?

Mon Dec 26, 2011 12:24 am

Quoting sac (Reply 8):
Just because an aircraft has three classes on it does not mean it will make money on a certain route. How many first class seat are filled by full fare paying customers versus upgrades?

Out of IAH...90% of them most likely.
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Tdan
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RE: UA Crossfleeting At IAH...747coming?

Mon Dec 26, 2011 1:17 am

Quoting drerx7 (Reply 10):

Not at all. Business class is only about 50% paid, depending on the LOPA for most longhaul routes (even out of IAH) and first is much much lower. First is mainly filled with upgrades and fares discounted to near business class levels
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RE: UA Crossfleeting At IAH...747coming?

Mon Dec 26, 2011 1:55 am

Quoting Tdan (Reply 11):
Not at all. Business class is only about 50% paid, depending on the LOPA for most longhaul routes (even out of IAH) and first is much much lower. First is mainly filled with upgrades and fares discounted to near business class levels

You have access to that proprietary info? Because, on this particular route, my suspicion is that your numbers are way off.
On many routes, sure. But not this one, if you ask me.
 
SonomaFlyer
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RE: UA Crossfleeting At IAH...747coming?

Mon Dec 26, 2011 2:21 am

IAH with its energy sector is a potential cash cow to business markets with connections to the energy sector. I'd agree that the coach product in the 744 is poor but the biz and first product is great and is the reason why the 744 would rotate to that route.
 
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RE: UA Crossfleeting At IAH...747coming?

Mon Dec 26, 2011 3:29 am

Quoting drerx7 (Thread starter):
either gate C14,C16 or D3

I don't see D3 functioning as a widebody gate. C14 and C16 makes sense because PMUA is based on that end of the terminal.

Quoting drerx7 (Thread starter):
I am anxious to see if this comes to fruition and what the breakdown of UA birds at IAH will be come this spring. Also I wonder if PMUA birds will begin to utilize the rest of the IAH terminal complex?

I think it will mainly be the widebodies going through IAH based out of C and D. I would give the airbuses a couple of years till they shuffling them in larger numbers through IAH.

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 13):
IAH with its energy sector is a potential cash cow to business markets with connections to the energy sector. I'd agree that the coach product in the 744 is poor but the biz and first product is great and is the reason why the 744 would rotate to that route.

Other than NRT, LHR, GIG, and probably FRA what other cities could see the 744 from IAH?
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calpsafltskeds
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RE: UA Crossfleeting At IAH...747coming?

Mon Dec 26, 2011 4:00 am

IMHO the nuts and bolts of IAH-NRT going 744 depends on a combination of total passenger loads, aircraft maintenance and whether the 744 would fly any other IAH routes.
The IAH-NRT sked is locked into the aircraft not being able to turn at IAH, meaning either IAH becomes a 744 maintenance point (21 hour layover) or the addition of service IAH to South America (which would take three aircraft). If UA feels it desirable to reduce the utilization of the 744 fleet, a South American route could increase utilization on the 764 or 772 fleet.
It is also not possible to operate LHR-IAH or FRA-IAH in front of the IAH-NRT flight. I don't think UA will start operating 744 equipment between hub to hub stations like SFO-IAH or ORD-IAH to make the turns work on IAH-NRT, especially since it would take aircraft time away from SFO or ORD.

[Edited 2011-12-25 20:02:37]
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drerx7
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RE: UA Crossfleeting At IAH...747coming?

Mon Dec 26, 2011 4:07 am

Quoting aznmadsci (Reply 14):
Other than NRT, LHR, GIG, and probably FRA what other cities could see the 744 from IAH?

Unless another Asian route is started from IAH...that's pretty much it. Of course I could see positioning flights.

Quoting CALPSAFltSkeds (Reply 15):
or the addition of service IAH to South America (which would take three aircraft).

Very possibly to GIG.

Quoting CALPSAFltSkeds (Reply 15):
I don't think UA will start operating 744 equipment between hub to hub stations like SFO-IAH or ORD-IAH to make the turns work on IAH-NRT, especially since it would take aircraft time away from SFO or ORD.

Why not. We would have to see what/if any routes from EWR would see the 744...I could very well see the 744 rotate between hubs. Also, what about it turning at NRT vs IAH as another poster mentioned? I don't see any of the points you mentioned (all valid points) being a roadblock.
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RE: UA Crossfleeting At IAH...747coming?

Mon Dec 26, 2011 5:34 am

Quoting Tdan (Reply 11):
Not at all. Business class is only about 50% paid, depending on the LOPA for most longhaul routes (even out of IAH) and first is much much lower. First is mainly filled with upgrades and fares discounted to near business class levels

You are completely wrong. United does very well selling First and it is not sold anywhere near business class prices on a major longhaul route like that. I would like to know where exactly you came up with this information?

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 12):
You have access to that proprietary info? Because, on this particular route, my suspicion is that your numbers are way off.
On many routes, sure. But not this one, if you ask me.

I do have that access and he couldn't be more wrong!
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RE: UA Crossfleeting At IAH...747coming?

Mon Dec 26, 2011 6:18 am

Quoting drerx7 (Reply 16):
Why not. We would have to see what/if any routes from EWR would see the 744...I could very well see the 744 rotate between hubs. Also, what about it turning at NRT vs IAH as another poster mentioned? I don't see any of the points you mentioned (all valid points) being a roadblock.

To maintain connections, NRT -IAH leaves at 1700, 20 mins after the first flight east (IAD). The IAD flight has 1:45 connections from BKK, SIN and 2:15 from ICN. If the IAH flight left at 1640 and had a two hour turn at IAH, it would arrive back into NRT 4:35 later than today (2020), which would blow the BKK, ICN, TPE connections and delay probably the SIN flight about 3.5 hours, ruining connections from the rest of the US-SIN.
Taking a TATL arrival at EWR and moving it to IAH to make up a 1045 NRT flight is impossible. However if one EWR-TLV went 744, the early morning EWR arrival could operate a 0600 EWR-IAH to turn to a slightly delayed IAH-NRT. The NRT-IAH flight could shuttle up to EWR in time for the 2251 EWR-TLV flight. I don't know if CO uses TLV as a maint base, but the aircraft would get about 7 hours on the ground in TLV every three days. Otherwise the aircraft would be swapped out at NRT to get a breather. But, tying TLV and IAH-NRT together would short EWR and aircraft from 4am to 11pm, causing other problems.
While shuttling aircraft between hubs may provide seats, it takes up valuable aircraft time.
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kiwiandrew

RE: UA Crossfleeting At IAH...747coming?

Mon Dec 26, 2011 6:53 am

Quoting CALPSAFltSkeds (Reply 18):
To maintain connections, NRT -IAH leaves at 1700, 20 mins after the first flight east (IAD). The IAD flight has 1:45 connections from BKK, SIN and 2:15 from ICN. If the IAH flight left at 1640 and had a two hour turn at IAH, it would arrive back into NRT 4:35 later than today (2020), which would blow the BKK, ICN, TPE connections and delay probably the SIN flight about 3.5 hours, ruining connections from the rest of the US-SIN.
Taking a TATL arrival at EWR and moving it to IAH to make up a 1045 NRT flight is impossible. However if one EWR-TLV went 744, the early morning EWR arrival could operate a 0600 EWR-IAH to turn to a slightly delayed IAH-NRT. The NRT-IAH flight could shuttle up to EWR in time for the 2251 EWR-TLV flight. I don't know if CO uses TLV as a maint base, but the aircraft would get about 7 hours on the ground in TLV every three days. Otherwise the aircraft would be swapped out at NRT to get a breather. But, tying TLV and IAH-NRT together would short EWR and aircraft from 4am to 11pm, causing other problems.

Wow, thanks for that very comprehensive post.   

I always figured that scheduling aircraft must be a complex business as in my mind it is effectively a 4 dimensional jigsaw puzzle, but you have confirmed it beyond any doubt.
 
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RE: UA Crossfleeting At IAH...747coming?

Mon Dec 26, 2011 2:03 pm

Quoting CALPSAFltSkeds (Reply 18):

Quoting drerx7 (Reply 16):
Why not. We would have to see what/if any routes from EWR would see the 744...I could very well see the 744 rotate between hubs. Also, what about it turning at NRT vs IAH as another poster mentioned? I don't see any of the points you mentioned (all valid points) being a roadblock.

To maintain connections, NRT -IAH leaves at 1700, 20 mins after the first flight east (IAD). The IAD flight has 1:45 connections from BKK, SIN and 2:15 from ICN. If the IAH flight left at 1640 and had a two hour turn at IAH, it would arrive back into NRT 4:35 later than today (2020), which would blow the BKK, ICN, TPE connections and delay probably the SIN flight about 3.5 hours, ruining connections from the rest of the US-SIN.
Taking a TATL arrival at EWR and moving it to IAH to make up a 1045 NRT flight is impossible. However if one EWR-TLV went 744, the early morning EWR arrival could operate a 0600 EWR-IAH to turn to a slightly delayed IAH-NRT. The NRT-IAH flight could shuttle up to EWR in time for the 2251 EWR-TLV flight. I don't know if CO uses TLV as a maint base, but the aircraft would get about 7 hours on the ground in TLV every three days. Otherwise the aircraft would be swapped out at NRT to get a breather. But, tying TLV and IAH-NRT together would short EWR and aircraft from 4am to 11pm, causing other problems.
While shuttling aircraft between hubs may provide seats, it takes up valuable aircraft time.

Thanks for that analysis! How would GIG going 744 or a turn from SFO be factored in? It would seem that adding 744 mx in IAH would solve that issue? If the source of the rumor is correct, then there could be something in the works seeing as they anticipate the start in 3Q12.
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RE: UA Crossfleeting At IAH...747coming?

Mon Dec 26, 2011 2:39 pm

Quoting aznmadsci (Reply 14):
I don't see D3 functioning as a widebody gate. C14 and C16 makes sense because PMUA is based on that end of the terminal.

Sidenote - IAH is making D2 a widebody gate in lieu of the A380 taking up D11 and D12.
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RE: UA Crossfleeting At IAH...747coming?

Mon Dec 26, 2011 2:43 pm

Quoting drerx7 (Reply 20):
Thanks for that analysis! How would GIG going 744 or a turn from SFO be factored in? It would seem that adding 744 mx in IAH would solve that issue? If the source of the rumor is correct, then there could be something in the works seeing as they anticipate the start in 3Q12.

I think a 744 is going to be overkill on IAH-GIG. A 3 class 777 would be a much better fit.
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RE: UA Crossfleeting At IAH...747coming?

Mon Dec 26, 2011 2:46 pm

On another side note on cross-fleeting;Any idea when they will begin flying PMCO 737's out of ORD to ROC? We get get PMUA A319/20's ,now. Thanks.
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drerx7
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RE: UA Crossfleeting At IAH...747coming?

Mon Dec 26, 2011 3:00 pm

Quoting United_fan (Reply 23):

On another side note on cross-fleeting;Any idea when they will begin flying PMCO 737's out of ORD to ROC? We get get PMUA A319/20's ,now. Thanks.

I don't know the ins and outs of the PMUA route economics up north...but I would think that would be a while. I would guess that United going forward would utilize the 737s on medium and long range runs out of ORD and DEN before sending them to the smaller stations.
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Tdan
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RE: UA Crossfleeting At IAH...747coming?

Mon Dec 26, 2011 3:18 pm

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 12):

You have access to that proprietary info? Because, on this particular route, my suspicion is that your numbers are way off.
On many routes, sure. But not this one, if you ask me.

No I don't, but I have seen this kind of data before for another airline and there is no longhaul route that I have ever seen that has averaged a 90% PAID premium load factor. UA should be no different. Sat load factor may be that high for very high load routes, but is nowhere near 90% paid up front. Regarding Houston, I bet the AMS flights for both KL and UA have the highest paid LFs since it is purely a business route without an alliance hub on either end. NRT has to do really well too since it is IAH's only nonstop to Asia, but there is typically a lot of mileage burn traffic and buy-up upgrades to Asia since it's such a long flight.

Quoting UAL747DEN (Reply 17):
Quoting Tdan (Reply 11):

You are completely wrong. United does very well selling First and it is not sold anywhere near business class prices on a major longhaul route like that. I would like to know where exactly you came up with this information?

Really? What makes UA's first product so different and so much better than most other airlines that it doesn't sell anywhere near business class prices? Why have so many airlines been dropping and shrinking F in favor of just business class? In the world of lie-flat business class, particularly those with aisle access at every seat, businesses will be less and less likely to pay much (if anything) extra for first class.

Quoting UAL747DEN (Reply 17):
Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 12):
I do have that access and he couldn't be more wrong!

Look at PAID business class load factor and not SAT load factor. Big difference. Revenue management doesn't usually care about the difference, so I assume that's where you work if you do have access.

Quoting CALPSAFltSkeds (Reply 18):
To maintain connections, NRT -IAH leaves at 1700, 20 mins after the first flight east (IAD). The IAD flight has 1:45 connections from BKK, SIN and 2:15 from ICN. If the IAH flight left at 1640 and had a two hour turn at IAH, it would arrive back into NRT 4:35 later than today (2020), which would blow the BKK, ICN, TPE connections and delay probably the SIN flight about 3.5 hours, ruining connections from the rest of the US-SIN.
Taking a TATL arrival at EWR and moving it to IAH to make up a 1045 NRT flight is impossible. However if one EWR-TLV went 744, the early morning EWR arrival could operate a 0600 EWR-IAH to turn to a slightly delayed IAH-NRT. The NRT-IAH flight could shuttle up to EWR in time for the 2251 EWR-TLV flight. I don't know if CO uses TLV as a maint base, but the aircraft would get about 7 hours on the ground in TLV every three days. Otherwise the aircraft would be swapped out at NRT to get a breather. But, tying TLV and IAH-NRT together would short EWR and aircraft from 4am to 11pm, causing other problems.
While shuttling aircraft between hubs may provide seats, it takes up valuable aircraft time.

   Beautiful analysis and probably the reason why IAH will unfortunately not see the 744 anytime soon, unless IAH becomes a maintenance base.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 22):

I think a 744 is going to be overkill on IAH-GIG. A 3 class 777 would be a much better fit.

  
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RE: UA Crossfleeting At IAH...747coming?

Mon Dec 26, 2011 3:30 pm

Quoting Tdan (Reply 25):
No I don't, but I have seen this kind of data before for another airline and there is no longhaul route that I have ever seen that has averaged a 90% PAID premium load factor. UA should be no different. Sat load factor may be that high for very high load routes, but is nowhere near 90% paid up front. Regarding Houston, I bet the AMS flights for both KL and UA have the highest paid LFs since it is purely a business route without an alliance hub on either end. NRT has to do really well too since it is IAH's only nonstop to Asia, but there is typically a lot of mileage burn traffic and buy-up upgrades to Asia since it's such a long flight.

You demonstrate good knowledge of the industry...but not quite as much about Houston's economy. With the 2nd highest number of foreign consulates and Fortune 500 companies outside of New York City and the oil and gas industry - Houston has no problem in the current atmosphere filling up the front cabin of any international flight. The mileage burn can be dispersed to Asia across any of the other UA flights via other hubs anyway.

Quoting Tdan (Reply 25):
Really? What makes UA's first product so different and so much better than most other airlines that it doesn't sell anywhere near business class prices? Why have so many airlines been dropping and shrinking F in favor of just business class? In the world of lie-flat business class, particularly those with aisle access at every seat, businesses will be less and less likely to pay much (if anything) extra for first class.

Its not that its better - but in the lucrative Houston market they are the only nonstop game in town - for this route. Another reason why I could see IAH-LHR going 3 class.

Quoting Tdan (Reply 25):
   Beautiful analysis and probably the reason why IAH will unfortunately not see the 744 anytime soon, unless IAH becomes a maintenance base.

I still don't buy it. They are restripping the tarmac out at IAH (not that that is concrete evidence).

How would a NRT-IAH-LHR run work - isn't a 744 at present on LHR-ORD or SFO? Or NRT-IAH-GIG-IAH-NRT? That would leave about a 5-6hr ground time at IAH in either direction.

[Edited 2011-12-26 07:45:27]
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RE: UA Crossfleeting At IAH...747coming?

Mon Dec 26, 2011 3:49 pm

Quoting drerx7 (Reply 26):
How would a NRT-IAH-LHR run work - isn't a 744 at present on LHR-ORD or SFO? Or NRT-IAH-GIG-IAH-NRT? That would leave about a 5-6hr ground time at IAH in either direction.

NRT-IAH-NRT would work with current timings, but the return LHR-IAH-NRT can't work as the inbound at IAH arrives at 1345 and the NRT departs at 1045. you might be able to move LHR from 9:20am to 8:00am, but I'm sure that would have an impact on loads. If IAH-NRT was moved more that 50 later, it would blow connections. So, LHR 0800-IAH 1225 can't make up a IAH 1135-NRT 1635.
NRT-IAH at present time could go to GIG with a 6 hour stop in IAH, then get a 11+ turn in GIG, arrive back in IAH at 5:15, then turn to IAH NRT at 1045. But that routing takes 3 aircraft. With current UA 744 routings, 3 aircraft may not be available. However, when the 787s arrive and maybe SFO splits the Oz service to non-stops to SYD and MEL with 787s, it could release 2 744s. If NRT and GIG were 744, then 744s could be added on LHR and FRA and allow better maintenance possibilities utilizing the layover from 1340 (NRT arrival) to the 2100 GIG departure. LHR and/ or FRA aircraft could be swapped out with the NRT-GIG aircraft. Then you're looking at 4 or 5 744 aircraft dedicated to IAH flying.
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RE: UA Crossfleeting At IAH...747coming?

Mon Dec 26, 2011 3:51 pm

Quoting drerx7 (Reply 26):
Houston has no problem in the current atmosphere filling up the front cabin of any international flight.

Thats a pretty sweeping generalization and not entirely accurate. True there are a lot of destinations (mostly the oil ones) where that is very much the case, but its not entirely true.
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RE: UA Crossfleeting At IAH...747coming?

Mon Dec 26, 2011 3:53 pm

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 28):
Thats a pretty sweeping generalization and not entirely accurate. True there are a lot of destinations (mostly the oil ones) where that is very much the case, but its not entirely true.

True...I forgot which forum I was on. You do have to be spot on with the semantics. To qualify, UA would not have a problem making a profit on a 3 class bird to NRT.
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RE: UA Crossfleeting At IAH...747coming?

Mon Dec 26, 2011 3:54 pm

could they get maintenance done at GIG?, as far as I know no airline has been successful in the USA - Brazil market unless they suck it up and let the aircraft spend 12-15 hours on the ground waiting to depart on an overnight return. Daytime flights even for as strong as a market as IAH, will probably be rejected by the business folks.
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RE: UA Crossfleeting At IAH...747coming?

Mon Dec 26, 2011 3:58 pm

Quoting Coronado (Reply 30):
could they get maintenance done at GIG?, as far as I know no airline has been successful in the USA - Brazil market unless they suck it up and let the aircraft spend 12-15 hours on the ground waiting to depart on an overnight return. Daytime flights even for as strong as a market as IAH, will probably be rejected by the business folks.

I was assuming it would be the standard 2100 departures in each direction. I don't know if maintenance checks are done in GIG, but there is 11 hours available each night regardless of airplane type. Be sure, that with a 744, there won't be daytime trips..
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RE: UA Crossfleeting At IAH...747coming?

Mon Dec 26, 2011 4:07 pm

Quoting drerx7 (Reply 26):
You demonstrate good knowledge of the industry...but virtually no knowledge about Houston's economy. With the 2nd highest number of foreign consulates and Fortune 500 companies outside of New York City and the oil and gas industry - Houston has no problem in the current atmosphere filling up the front cabin of any international flight. The mileage burn can be dispersed to Asia across any of the other UA flights via other hubs anyway.

Oh, don't get me wrong, Houston is a fantastic generator of front cabin international traffic! All I am saying is that 90% paid front cabin load factors do not happen for US carriers on long haul flights. Trust me on this one...it's not possible mathematically:

Daily demand is not constant and fluctuates considerably by the day of week (ie relatively high covariance). If you were to set up a queuing problem where capacity is constant and load factor = utilization, anything over ~80% utilization increases exponentially, indicating that the carrier is spilling high-value paid front cabin traffic. Front cabin traffic is the bread and butter for most long-haul international routes and carriers optimize this capacity based on whether or not they are spilling this traffic. Corporations do not like to sign deals with airlines and then not have any inventory availability at the discounted levels...they will just take their business to another airline! So, using the assumptions of a relatively high covariance of demand and front cabin spill minimization, the highest paid load factor that can be achieved is ~80%. Factor in mileage burn and buy-ups, which occupy seats (say 10% of the load factor for this example...which is pretty low actually) and you get a 70% paid front cabin load factor. A 90% paid front cabin load factor implies that either front cabin demand is nearly constant each day, year-round (ie low covariance of demand) or that a considerable amount of valuable, high-yield business traffic is being spilled. This doesn't even take into account mileage burn...

Quoting drerx7 (Reply 26):
Another reason why I could see IAH-LHR going 3 class.

   Look at BA sending 4-class 744s into Houston and running terrible load factors year-round (source: Houston Airport System Data). It's because they are filling their enormous premium cabins around 50% full at very high fares. Only issue is that the new 3-class UA 777s would result in a loss of 2 premium seats vs. the CO 777s and the 14 additional seats on the 744 might not be justified by the increased cost of the plane.

Quoting drerx7 (Reply 26):
I still don't buy it. They are restripping the tarmac out at IAH (not that that is concrete evidence).

A 744 might show up on an ad hoc swap or irregular ops maybe?
We will ride this thunderbird, silver shadows on the earth, a thousand leagues away our land of birth... -Captain Bruce
 
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kgaiflyer
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RE: UA Crossfleeting At IAH...747coming?

Mon Dec 26, 2011 5:17 pm

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 13):
IAH with its energy sector is a potential cash cow to business markets with connections to the energy sector. I'd agree that the coach product in the 744 is poor but the biz and first product is great and is the reason why the 744 would rotate to that route.

As an analogy, when AC moved some of its Narita flights from Vancouver -- 426 sm inland to Calgary, Alberta -- people snickered . . . until full planes began going out.

Energy-producer to energy-purchaser sells seats.
 
rising
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RE: UA Crossfleeting At IAH...747coming?

Mon Dec 26, 2011 5:29 pm

Are ex-Continental crews flying old-United metal and vice-versa?
If it doesn't make sense, it's because it's not true.
 
nycdave
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RE: UA Crossfleeting At IAH...747coming?

Mon Dec 26, 2011 8:09 pm

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 33):
Energy-producer to energy-purchaser sells seats.

Agreed. A lot of people not in the area or business have no idea just how much traffic that industry generates -- and how readily they pay for premium seats (probably has something to do with the hundreds of billions of dollars of pure profit they rake in  ) One of my best friends works as a geologist for a Houston-based energy company, and racks up even more miles than my NYC friend who works for an HK hedge fund! Unlike in banking, energy often NEEDS to put people on the ground... whole TEAMS of people doing analyses, surveys, compliance and monitoring, etc. Also, as mentioned, they've had little reason to engage in as much of the cost-cutting "let's just videoconference" stuff for other matters that most big banks have gone to in the past few years. Honestly, if you want to fly like George Clooney in "Up In The Air" -- or maybe a bit better, since you won't be stuck doing domestic so much -- get yourself a job in energy, working out of Houston, Calgary, Rio, Oslo, etc...
 
Flighty
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RE: UA Crossfleeting At IAH...747coming?

Mon Dec 26, 2011 8:23 pm

I thought UA 744 was refurbished nose to tail. Why is CO considered so much better? In any case, the two airlines should have the exact same standard, going forward ideally.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: UA Crossfleeting At IAH...747coming?

Mon Dec 26, 2011 8:34 pm

Quoting nycdave (Reply 35):
Also, as mentioned, they've had little reason to engage in as much of the cost-cutting "let's just videoconference" stuff for other matters that most big banks have gone to in the past few years.

UA - or any other carrier - probably isn't wise to develop business on the assumption that energy (or any other industry) will never get wise about cost cutting. The energy industry is bound to cut costs at some point, if nothing else so they can make still more profit.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
kiwiandrew

RE: UA Crossfleeting At IAH...747coming?

Mon Dec 26, 2011 8:42 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 36):
I thought UA 744 was refurbished nose to tail.

Nose, yes ( ie F and J) tail, no .. as far as I am aware economy is still without PTVs.
 
usairways85
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RE: UA Crossfleeting At IAH...747coming?

Mon Dec 26, 2011 9:15 pm

Quoting Tdan (Reply 32):
A 744 might show up on an ad hoc swap or irregular ops maybe?

Is the ground equipment for the 772 compatable with the 744?

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 38):
Nose, yes ( ie F and J) tail, no .. as far as I am aware economy is still without PTVs.

Correct, F and J have been refurbed but Y has not. So outside of E+, the 744's aren't exactly pax friendly in Y.
 
Max Q
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RE: UA Crossfleeting At IAH...747coming?

Tue Dec 27, 2011 2:40 am

Quoting Rising (Reply 34):
Are ex-Continental crews flying old-United metal and vice-versa?

No, not at all, a contract has not been reached allowing this.
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
 
CO777DAL
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RE: UA Crossfleeting At IAH...747coming?

Tue Dec 27, 2011 3:57 am

If this happens, I know some CO pilots that are not going to be happy. There are only so many 777 routes out of IAH. If they lose NRT and not add another 777 route, there is going to be a reduction in flying. Unless UA adds some 787 routes of of IAH and the senior 777 pilots can move to the 787. The new UA just can't pull down CO widebody flying at IAH and not replace it without cause problems with CAL pilots.
Worked Hard. Flew Right. Farewell, Continental. Thanks for the memories.
 
tommy767
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RE: UA Crossfleeting At IAH...747coming?

Tue Dec 27, 2011 4:52 am

I think IAH getting the 747 is less likely than EWR getting it. EWR-TLV would be a ballin' route for the 744.

Quoting CO777DAL (Reply 41):
Unless UA adds some 787 routes of of IAH and the senior 777 pilots can move to the 787.

A very likely prediction if you ask me.
"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
 
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kgaiflyer
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RE: UA Crossfleeting At IAH...747coming?

Tue Dec 27, 2011 5:03 am

Quoting Flighty (Reply 36):
I thought UA 744 was refurbished nose to tail. Why is CO considered so much better? In any case, the two airlines should have the exact same standard, going forward ideally.

I flew two UA legs on Sunday (a 320 and a 757).

One thing for sure -- I've never seen UA planes so squeaky clean.   
 
nycdave
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RE: UA Crossfleeting At IAH...747coming?

Tue Dec 27, 2011 5:15 am

Quoting CO777DAL (Reply 41):
Unless UA adds some 787 routes of of IAH and the senior 777 pilots can move to the 787.

Aren't the first two 787 routes planned out of IAH? To AKL and LOS?
 
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calpsafltskeds
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RE: UA Crossfleeting At IAH...747coming?

Tue Dec 27, 2011 5:44 am

Quoting TOMMY767 (Reply 42):
I think IAH getting the 747 is less likely than EWR getting it. EWR-TLV would be a ballin' route for the 744.

If TLV-EWR one the late night flight each way went 744, it could hook up quite nicely with the EWR-NRT schedule. The 2 aircraft would have 11 hours every other day in TLV and can be swapped daily at NRT with the other three current 744s on the ground in NRT. It would make sense to run 744s through NRT as they are already there.
It would take three 744s to do NRT-EWR-TLV.
In fact, you could run three more 744s on a routing like NRT-IAH-EWR-BOM (or DEL)-EWR-IAH-NRT. (Little ground time on this routing).

Both packages would use 6 744s and put 5 744s on the ground at NRT. I guess if reallocation was done on some current 744 routes, SYD/MEL (split with 787s), some LHR and FRA routes, it could work - not recommending it, just pointing it out.
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Rdh3e
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RE: UA Crossfleeting At IAH...747coming?

Tue Dec 27, 2011 3:29 pm

Quoting Tdan (Reply 25):
eally? What makes UA's first product so different and so much better than most other airlines that it doesn't sell anywhere near business class prices?

It depends on your definition of "Anywhere near" but currently on ORD-NRT a biz ticket for RT JAN13-JAN20 is $10,165, and a First ticket is $13,471. Or about 30% higher. And given what people are saying here UA expects that gap to grow when moving IAH-NRT to 3 class instead of 2 currently.
 
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FlyCaledonian
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RE: UA Crossfleeting At IAH...747coming?

Tue Dec 27, 2011 3:57 pm

Quoting CO777DAL (Reply 41):
The new UA just can't pull down CO widebody flying at IAH and not replace it without cause problems with CAL pilots.

Why? UA could quite easily utilise any PMCO 772 on a W flight ex-IAH (as PMCO is doing with 752s ex-IAD and PMUA is doing with 763s ex-EWR). It has been said on various threads about the merger that there are PMCO routes that can support three-class service, and PMUA routes that are better suited to two class service. In 2012 we'll start seeing more cross-fleeting to support this.

IAH-FRA, IAH-LHR and IAH-NRT are three routes that could go three-class (IMHO). If UA believes that too, and wants to redeploy PMUA aircraft (and crews) to do this, it will rejig its flying programme to accommodate this and meet any agreements with pilots/cabin crews on either the PMUA or PMCO side.
Let's Go British Caledonian!
 
slider
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RE: UA Crossfleeting At IAH...747coming?

Tue Dec 27, 2011 4:21 pm

Quoting aznmadsci (Reply 14):
I don't see D3 functioning as a widebody gate. C14 and C16 makes sense because PMUA is based on that end of the terminal.

Departures can be out of C14 or 16, but not arrivals for FIS purposes. Certainly some of the E gates are being striped for 747 ops and taking into account any adjacency restraints.

Quoting Rising (Reply 34):
Are ex-Continental crews flying old-United metal and vice-versa?

negative- mainline crews have to follow their respective metal contractually. Although there is a great deal of mainline being redeployed now as they optimize the network for gauge and demand.
 
Tdan
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RE: UA Crossfleeting At IAH...747coming?

Tue Dec 27, 2011 4:49 pm

Quoting rdh3e (Reply 46):
It depends on your definition of "Anywhere near" but currently on ORD-NRT a biz ticket for RT JAN13-JAN20 is $10,165, and a First ticket is $13,471. Or about 30% higher. And given what people are saying here UA expects that gap to grow when moving IAH-NRT to 3 class instead of 2 currently.

I see your point, but you can't just look at published fares for the premium cabins. Most corporate contracts are made with a percentage discount off the published fare. Depending on the competition for the traffic and volume provided, some corporate deals may offer a discount for a business class fare that is immediately upgradable to first or something similar. If everyone sitting up front paid the published fares, airlines would be rolling in dough!

I agree that a 3-class plane could do well on IAH-NRT; however, this will be a net negative move if the total number of front cabin seats decrease (see my analysis in an earlier reply).
We will ride this thunderbird, silver shadows on the earth, a thousand leagues away our land of birth... -Captain Bruce

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