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RWA380
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Need Help With JFK-LAX Widebody Aug 1970

Tue Dec 27, 2011 3:26 am

I need help with trying to find an airline and aircraft I took with my family Aug 1970, JFK-LAX. Dad swears it was a widebody, we connected off an SA flight from JNB-RIO-JFK 707-300, not sure what it's arrival tiome was, but remember RIO was at night. Any help would be appreciated. As PA didn't have domestic rights, could one have connected to PA to fly JFK-LAX if part of an Intl ticket that was not connecting from a PA Intl flight? I don't think the DC-10 or L-1011 was operating yet, so I'm guessing it was a 747.
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crownvic
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RE: Need Help With JFK-LAX Widebody Aug 1970

Tue Dec 27, 2011 4:55 am

How about an American 747-100? Not sure of when their service entry date was, but I would assume that this was AA's first service w/ their Jumbo as JFK-LAX was always their flagship route.
 
AY104
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RE: Need Help With JFK-LAX Widebody Aug 1970

Tue Dec 27, 2011 5:06 am

This may help to give a clue. A link to a website about TWA. According to this, they inaugrated nonstop 747 service New York to Los Angeles that year. Funnily, enough, I was just doing some searching of old airline timetables etc. about TWA when I read your post:
http://www.twasilverwings-kc.com/htdocs/TWA_historypage2.htm
Couldn't find any timetable info, though. I think the only other airline that maybe could have been operating that route would be AA or UA, but apparently not that year. And there would not have been DC10 services by then.
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LAXintl
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RE: Need Help With JFK-LAX Widebody Aug 1970

Tue Dec 27, 2011 5:08 am

Well TWA was the first to introduce the domestic US 747 service - with JFK-LAX commencing February 1970.

For Pan Am, I'm not sure when they placed the 747 between JFK-LAX, but yes indeed you could fly domestic PA legs as part of international tickets back in those days.
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milesrich
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RE: Need Help With JFK-LAX Widebody Aug 1970

Tue Dec 27, 2011 5:51 am

PA was not allowed to carry passengers between LAX and JFK until deregulation in 1978. AA, UA, and TW all had taken delivery of 747-100's in 1970 and had placed them on the LAX-JFK route, the premier and most traveled transcon. DC-10's did not go into service with AA and UA until late 1971, and were not initially used on transcons, but on flights from ORD to the LAX and SFO (UA) and ORD to LAX and LGA (AA). TW did not put the L-1011 into service until late ( I recall it was September) 1972. Therefore, if the flight was a widebody, it was a 747, and could have been on any of the three transcon carriers operating the route.
 
WA707atMSP
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RE: Need Help With JFK-LAX Widebody Aug 1970

Tue Dec 27, 2011 7:28 pm

Quoting milesrich (Reply 4):
DC-10's did not go into service with AA and UA until late 1971, and were not initially used on transcons,

You are correct about AA, but incorrect about UA. AA's (and the world's) first DC-10 route was LAX-ORD, in Aug 1971, with ORD-LGA added in Sep 1971.

UA's first DC-10 route was SFO-IAD, in Aug 1971.
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timz
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RE: Need Help With JFK-LAX Widebody Aug 1970

Tue Dec 27, 2011 8:05 pm

Quoting milesrich (Reply 4):
PA was not allowed to carry passengers between LAX and JFK until deregulation in 1978.

They started flying JFK-LAX and JFK-SFO in 1967-68-- the flights had to be empty?
 
Viscount724
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RE: Need Help With JFK-LAX Widebody Aug 1970

Tue Dec 27, 2011 8:10 pm

Quoting RWA380 (Thread starter):
As PA didn't have domestic rights, could one have connected to PA to fly JFK-LAX if part of an Intl ticket that was not connecting from a PA Intl flight?
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 3):
For Pan Am, I'm not sure when they placed the 747 between JFK-LAX, but yes indeed you could fly domestic PA legs as part of international tickets back in those days.

Wasn't that true only when connecting to/from a PA international flight? That's my recollection. Don't think they could carry other carriers' connecting domestic traffic. PA could also carry their own passengers on domestic sectors after a stopover.

[Edited 2011-12-27 12:10:48]
 
Viscount724
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RE: Need Help With JFK-LAX Widebody Aug 1970

Tue Dec 27, 2011 8:40 pm

In August 1970 it could have been AA, TW or UA. By the beginning of August TWA had 8 747s (2 more delivered during August), AA had 3 747s (one more delivered in August), and UA had 1 747 (4 more delivered in August).

As a sidenote, Pan Am had 24 747s in service by early August 1970, less than 7 months after the inaugural 747 service. And by the end of August Boeing had delivered 67 747s to 11 customers including 6 US carriers (PA/TW/AA/UA/NW/CO).
 
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RWA380
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RE: Need Help With JFK-LAX Widebody Aug 1970

Wed Dec 28, 2011 10:25 am

All of your responses are much appreciated, I was told by my Dad, he thought it was PA, buit with PA not having domestic rights in 1970, I questioned it, which is why I was suspecting TW, you know globe on the tail, white fuselage etc..

But I know PA didd fly JFK-LAX as a connection from Intl flights, the question remains, was PA able to carry passengers, connecting off of other carriers Intl flights, if part of the original Intl ticket, like a mileage fare?

We flew DL from LAX to JFK on a DC-8 on the way over in June 1970, Dad says it was the milk run, with stops in at least DFW and ATL and possibly CVG, Dad mentioned all 3 cities, leaving late at night from LAX, DFW stop was middle of the night and dawn arriving into ATL.

But he swears the return leg JFK-LAX was non-stop, and the biggest plane we had been on ever, definatly a widebody. I used to have an SAA timetable still from 1970 when we took the trip, just can't find it, I'm guessing that arrival time, may help figure that JFK-LAX leg out a bit more.

If anyone has an OAG or timetables from Aug 1970 and can help any more I'd surely appreciate it. It's the one and only in question flight I have left from my entire life long travels, at this time I was 4 years old, and don't recall much about the flights, other than I was so excited I threw up, but had enough room in Y to sleep on the floor of the SAA 707's still with enough leg room for my folks and older sister.

As a uninformed member, I guess, but reasonably smart about the industry, I need help understanding how to get a RR, at least one would be nice. Am I missing something? I post often and am polite and have had several repeaat members talk via the many threads, I'm wanting to upgrade to first class membership, but wanted help with this subject before doing so. I know not the best way to ask this, but you seasoned members may have some friendly tips, Thanks. I don't know why, but it's kind of important to me, seems to me, I may be taken more seriously. A private msg reply may be the best way to explain this to me. Sorry if this question offends anyone in this forum, but I'm sure some of you helpful folks wouldn't mind helping me understand this, given my posts, I'd like to beleive someone thinks I'm half smart about the industry, having been in it for more than half my life. Thanks fellow A.netters

[Edited 2011-12-28 02:45:16]
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milesrich
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RE: Need Help With JFK-LAX Widebody Aug 1970

Wed Dec 28, 2011 1:33 pm

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 9):
We flew DL from LAX to JFK on a DC-8 on the way over in June 1970, Dad says it was the milk run, with stops in at least DFW and ATL and possibly CVG, Dad mentioned all 3 cities, leaving late at night from LAX, DFW stop was middle of the night and dawn arriving into ATL.

The flight may have stopped at DAL, but not DFW which did not open until January, 1974. The stops would have been DAL, and ATL, and possibly MSY, BHM, or IAD.

Pan Am could carry through passengers to LAX on flights originating in Europe and stopping at JFK, but I do not believe they could carry connecting traffic, and I know for a fact that they could not carry JFK originating traffic to LAX on tickets to HNL. Pan Am's own timetables showed AA connecting flights to its LAX/SFO to HNL flights. I looked in a 1968 OAG and it shows one LAX and SFO flight to JFK, with the note at the top of the listings, "no local traffic on Pan Am". I very much doubt that Pan Am was allowed to carry traffic connecting from other carrier's flights. The only restriction like that I know of was UA's restrictions in and out of Kansas City, where they could carry traffic between Kansas City (MKC and later MCI) to DEN and ORD/MDW as long as the passenger was flying beyond Denver and Chicago to a city served by United Air Lines, i.e., they had to connect, but the connection could be interline as long as United served the city, so for example, you could fly UA from MKC to ORD and then EA to ATL because after the Capital merger, UA served Atlanta, but not from Chicago or Kansas City.
 
timz
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RE: Need Help With JFK-LAX Widebody Aug 1970

Wed Dec 28, 2011 6:08 pm

The weekly SA flight left JNB 0930 to 0945, so if you were in Rio at night you were hours late. Scheduled arrival at JFK was after 2300 EDT. Do you remember stopping overnight?

The July 1970 OAG shows four 747s: AA 1 lv 0900, TW 3 lv 1430, TW 1 lv 1745, AA 21 lv 1800. TW 3 was a one-stop, the others were nonstop. AA's timetable for 14 Sept also shows nonstop AA 3 leaving at 1200.

(The OAG did show the PA and BA flights, with the no-local-traffic note; no 747s.)

[Edited 2011-12-28 10:10:36]

[Edited 2011-12-28 10:13:28]
 
catiii
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RE: Need Help With JFK-LAX Widebody Aug 1970

Wed Dec 28, 2011 9:46 pm

Might want to scroll through some timetables here: http://www.departedflights.com/timetables.html

They may be able to help you find your answer.
 
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RWA380
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RE: Need Help With JFK-LAX Widebody Aug 1970

Thu Dec 29, 2011 7:23 pm

Quoting timz (Reply 11):

You have done it, based on what you provided from your research (Thank you very much) We jogged Dad's memory enough, and we landed after midnight into JFK, and as Dad said, had a long layover, I'm guessing all night, and took the first flight out in the morning to LAX, we did arrive in LAX in bright sunshine, we beleive it was AA 1, again I appreciate your research.

In fact, I extend thanks to all the replies on this thread, it was nice of ya'll to try and help me figure this one out. It was my first air trip as a kid, 3-4 years old, had my 4th B-day in Rhodesia, and of course as an A.nutter it is important to me to know the details as best I could.
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