boysteve
Topic Author
Posts: 885
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2004 7:02 am

Has VS Gained A Few LHR Slots?

Fri Dec 30, 2011 8:50 pm

There has been some criticism of VS in other threads for being all moaning and no action, but examination of their on-line timetable shows an extra 8 weekly departures for summer 2012 compared with summer 2011. We have;

CPT dropped for Northern summer as usual.
ORD restarted for Northern summer.

But;
Accra goes from 3 flights per week to 4.
YVR is a new destination with 4 flights per week.
SFO is up from 7 flights per week to 10.

So VS had 143 weekly departures from LHR in Summer 2011 but that will be 151 for Summer 2012, or put another way they will go from 286 weekly slots to 302. I have two questions;

Where have these slots come from?
What can we expect in future?
 
PezySPU
Posts: 281
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 1:27 pm

RE: Has VS Gained A Few LHR Slots?

Fri Dec 30, 2011 9:12 pm

Quoting boysteve (Thread starter):
What can we expect in future?

Regulators might give them some LHR slots from BD. Or if the deal between LH and IAG gets blocked, although I think that is unlikely, they are next on the list.
 
vv701
Posts: 5773
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2005 10:54 am

RE: Has VS Gained A Few LHR Slots?

Sat Dec 31, 2011 12:36 am

At the start of the Summer 2008 season VS were operating 326 weekly LHR slots and 325 at the start of Summer 2009.

By the start of Summer 2010 season the number of slots operated by VS fell back to 286. I believe that the 40 'lost' slots were leased out to other airlines.

At the start of Summer 2011 VS were operating 288 weekly LHR slots.

So the 302 slots they will likely operate at the start of Summer 2012 seems to represent a return of a significant proportion of the leased out slots but still leaves them operating 24 fewer slots than they did before the start of the credit crunch.

[All the above numerical data are derived from the annual reports published on the Airport Coordination Ltd web site.]
 
boysteve
Topic Author
Posts: 885
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2004 7:02 am

RE: Has VS Gained A Few LHR Slots?

Sat Dec 31, 2011 8:04 am

Quoting VV701 (Reply 2):
So the 302 slots they will likely operate at the start of Summer 2012 seems to represent a return of a significant proportion of the leased out slots but still leaves them operating 24 fewer slots than they did before the start of the credit crunch.

OK thanks for that, does anyone know who leased these slots and how much notice has to be given to terminate such leases?
 
slinky09
Posts: 590
Joined: Sat Jun 06, 2009 5:03 pm

RE: Has VS Gained A Few LHR Slots?

Sat Dec 31, 2011 8:22 am

Quoting VV701 (Reply 2):
By the start of Summer 2010 season the number of slots operated by VS fell back to 286. I believe that the 40 'lost' slots were leased out to other airlines.

I understand that VS itself leased two daily slot pairs from UA, and these returned to UA in late 2010 / early 2011 - accounting for 28 slots out of those 40. Perhaps it's just the 12 difference that VS is now making use of?
 
anstar
Posts: 2861
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2003 3:49 am

RE: Has VS Gained A Few LHR Slots?

Sat Dec 31, 2011 8:31 am

Quoting boysteve (Thread starter):
CPT dropped for Northern summer as usual.
ORD restarted for Northern summer.

But;
Accra goes from 3 flights per week to 4.
YVR is a new destination with 4 flights per week.
SFO is up from 7 flights per week to 10.

CPT is usual as you mention. ORD is also normal and ops in the summer only.

Accra also went upto 4 times a week in summer last year so is not unusual - I believe it is easy enough to get slots that late at lhr (ie around 10pm).

YVR/SFO uses the same 1 pm slot so is an increase of a daily flight.
 
staralliance85
Posts: 181
Joined: Sat Jul 02, 2011 3:29 am

RE: Has VS Gained A Few LHR Slots?

Sat Dec 31, 2011 3:00 pm

I hope that VS starts service to BKK. BKK is a very popular destination and VS will do just fine on that route. I think they need to expand their Asian network.
brad Fitzpatrick
 
boeing773er
Posts: 478
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2011 7:23 pm

RE: Has VS Gained A Few LHR Slots?

Sat Dec 31, 2011 4:15 pm

I know that VS also leases out a few LHR slots, I'm not sure if that is included in the slots you mentioned above but some of the airlines could of gave up the slots. (Not sure who would give up LHR slots, but who knows)
Work Hard, Fly Right.
 
slinky09
Posts: 590
Joined: Sat Jun 06, 2009 5:03 pm

RE: Has VS Gained A Few LHR Slots?

Sat Dec 31, 2011 4:51 pm

Quoting Boeing773ER (Reply 7):
I know that VS also leases out a few LHR slots

Not to doubt you unduly, but I've seen this statement numerous times, and on each occasion there is no qualification. Do you have any detail? If this is the case I wonder why VS is not growing more?
 
vv701
Posts: 5773
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2005 10:54 am

RE: Has VS Gained A Few LHR Slots?

Sat Dec 31, 2011 10:03 pm

Quoting slinky09 (Reply 8):
Not to doubt you unduly, but I've seen this statement numerous times, and on each occasion there is no qualification. Do you have any detail? If this is the case I wonder why VS is not growing more?

It is clear from the Airport Coordination Ltd web site that today and - apparently - tomorrow that VS operates and will operate fewer LHR slots than they did back in Summer 2008 - see Reply 2.

Of course it is possible that VS gave away or sold the slots that they no longer operate, But if they did this the arguments they will put to the competition authorities on their objections to the purchase of BD by IAG would sound very hollow indeed. So it is far from unreasonable to assume that VS leased out the missing slots, particularly as they now appear to be restoring some of their previous services. And it is worth noting that the likes of CO and other US airlines were actively seeking LHR slots following implementation of Open Skies back in March 2008 when the decline in VS's LHR slots started.

If you compare the reduction in VS operated slots and now the reactivation of some of those slots with BA parking up 8 744s starting in 2008 but now bringing some back into service you can see how two airlines shose to address the same issue of reduced demand for their services differently.

Quoting boysteve (Reply 3):
how much notice has to be given to terminate such leases?

The lease of an LHR slot can be for any period of time. It could be as short as one day, enabling an airline to operate a single flight provide the lessor was prepared to cancel the flight for which it would have otherwise have used the slot.

Alternatively it could be for 25 years or even longer.

However the advantage of a relatively short lease is that it lives the airline leasing the slot or slots the ppossibility of obtaining the ownership of suitable slots during the currency of the lease. Here it is worth noting that the purchase and tranfer dates can be different, So while it was asnnounced that BA had purchased six daily slot pairs from Lufthansa Group back in November, BA will not be operating those slots until the start of Summer Season 2012.

So the answer is like that of how long is a piece of string!
 
slinky09
Posts: 590
Joined: Sat Jun 06, 2009 5:03 pm

RE: Has VS Gained A Few LHR Slots?

Sun Jan 01, 2012 10:50 am

Quoting VV701 (Reply 9):
It is clear from the Airport Coordination Ltd web site that today and - apparently - tomorrow that VS operates and will operate fewer LHR slots than they did back in Summer 2008 - see Reply 2.

Unfortunately, no detail, and, as I pointed out above, VS leased slots in 2008 from UA that it had to return. So it's perfectly possible that the numbers gap could have arisen from a further such arrangement?

This is sort of a self perpetuating myth that no one can back up, i.e. that VS is leases its own slots out. It may be true, but no one has actually substantiated the repetition of this.
 
vv701
Posts: 5773
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2005 10:54 am

RE: Has VS Gained A Few LHR Slots?

Sun Jan 01, 2012 12:51 pm

Quoting slinky09 (Reply 10):
This is sort of a self perpetuating myth that no one can back up, i.e. that VS is leases its own slots out. It may be true, but no one has actually substantiated the repetition of this.

It is no myth that the LHR weekly slots operated by VS fell from 326 at the end on March 2008 to 286 at the end end of March 2010.

For this to happen then VS have:

Leased out up to 40 LHR slots

or

Sold up to 40 LHR slots

or

Had up to 40 LHR slots confiscated for mis or non-use.

In view of the VS rhetoric over BA and their LHR slot holding I see a lease-out to address reduced business during the credit crunch as the most likely commercial explanation. Clearly you disagree. But you have not suggested any alternative. So I would be interested in why you assert that a lease-out is a myth. Also what are your thoughts as to the most likely cause of the reduction in VS LHR slots beteen 2008 and 2010? I also wonder where you think VS are getting the new slots they are planning to operate next summer if, indeed, it is a myth that they are slots being returned from lease.
 
slinky09
Posts: 590
Joined: Sat Jun 06, 2009 5:03 pm

RE: Has VS Gained A Few LHR Slots?

Sun Jan 01, 2012 6:35 pm

Quoting VV701 (Reply 11):
n view of the VS rhetoric over BA and their LHR slot holding I see a lease-out to address reduced business during the credit crunch as the most likely commercial explanation. Clearly you disagree. But you have not suggested any alternative.

Read above, I have offered an alternative, VS leased slots from UA and gave them up in 2010 when the second HKG and IAD flights were dropped, that accounted for 28 of the 40 difference. I do not know about the others, and really, all I am asking is for substantiation.

However, you have no substantiation, just guesses, so that answers that.
 
vv701
Posts: 5773
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2005 10:54 am

RE: Has VS Gained A Few LHR Slots?

Sun Jan 01, 2012 7:34 pm

Quoting slinky09 (Reply 12):
However, you have no substantiation, just guesses, so that answers that.

You are totally failing to address the question asked by the threrad opener.

You are certainly entitled to reject my possible explanartion as to how VS might be obtaining the slots for its planned Summer 2012 expansion at LHR. But you have not even tried to give an alternative to my suggestion but simpoly called it a "myth".
 
rutankrd
Posts: 2563
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2003 6:08 am

RE: Has VS Gained A Few LHR Slots?

Sun Jan 01, 2012 8:05 pm

Quoting slinky09 (Reply 12):

Quoting VV701 (Reply 11):
n view of the VS rhetoric over BA and their LHR slot holding I see a lease-out to address reduced business during the credit crunch as the most likely commercial explanation. Clearly you disagree. But you have not suggested any alternative.

Read above, I have offered an alternative, VS leased slots from UA and gave them up in 2010 when the second HKG and IAD flights were dropped, that accounted for 28 of the 40 difference. I do not know about the others, and really, all I am asking is for substantiation.

However, you have no substantiation, just guesses, so that answers that.

VV701 has a plausible explanation for you.

The murky slot trading/leasing and exchanges at Heathrow are well known however apart from the US carriers over paid entries much of the bargaining is done quietly to protect commercial interests.

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