VC10er
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What Could A UA/CO 757 Do Tatl If All Business?

Sun Jan 01, 2012 3:40 am

Would there be demand (in your opinion) for an all Business Class, UNITED TATL nose to tail, 757 that can serve more destinations because of it's configuration?

IMHO, I would think it it has much potential...only if the reduced body count saved the distance issue- or would the weight of the seat make up for the lack of E+ and E? Also, as a 757, how many Business Class seats would you guess it would fit? And which one? PMUA's or the new CO business seat?

I recently flew EWR/AMS/EWR on the 757 and it was my 3rd time on one, and I happen to really enjoy the "exclusive" size/feeling of the 2 - 2 flat bed layout. If UA was to take a number of their ETOPS/TATL 757's and reconfiigure this way could the 757 do EWR: FRA, CDG, BRU, (LHR), AND OLD: Munich - Riem (MUC / EDDM) (closed), Germany">MUC or any other destination deemed to support the premium traffic. No stop in Ireland for immigration and add on the USA side: BOS, IAD, ORD and JFK?
This way one could transfer easy at JFK to get UNITED p.s. to SFO and LAX?

If I was UNITED (or JEFF) I would cover the one time cost of the retna scan booth (Global Scan?)... and for GS, have an agent assist with the GS Pax to apply (paperwork and interviews are time consuming)

AND I WOULD ABSOLUTELY PAY MORE, as would all my bosses and the Corp travel departments.

Possible???
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Mir
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RE: What Could A UA/CO 757 Do Tatl If All Business?

Sun Jan 01, 2012 4:06 am

Quoting VC10er (Thread starter):
AND I WOULD ABSOLUTELY PAY MORE, as would all my bosses and the Corp travel departments.

How much more? I'd bet not enough.

The failures of Maxjet, Silverjet and Eos showed that all-business transatlantic service doesn't work, with the exception of a few niche markets that are served with smaller aircraft that are easier to fill (737s). You're talking about mostly major markets, and those are all best served with aircraft that have both premium and economy cabins, as there's plenty of demand for both.

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VC10er
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RE: What Could A UA/CO 757 Do Tatl If All Business?

Sun Jan 01, 2012 4:54 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 1):

True about MaxJet for sure. But this would be part of UA and Star Alliance, and as for me, up to a 20% up charge for the convenience. It would usually cost $4000 to $6000 depending.

MaxJet was a 767, I felt a 757 may make more sense.
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Max Q
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RE: What Could A UA/CO 757 Do Tatl If All Business?

Sun Jan 01, 2012 5:32 am

In any case, none of the European cities you mentioned are a problem for the 757 in its present configuration as far as performance is concerned (except on the rarest of the days)
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BMI727
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RE: What Could A UA/CO 757 Do Tatl If All Business?

Sun Jan 01, 2012 5:33 am

Quoting VC10er (Thread starter):

Would there be demand (in your opinion) for an all Business Class, UNITED TATL nose to tail, 757 that can serve more destinations because of it's configuration?

What good would that do? A 757 can reach most of western Europe from the East Coast so extending the range might only open up some places in Eastern Europe, where there is comparatively little business class demand anyway.

Quoting VC10er (Thread starter):
If UA was to take a number of their ETOPS/TATL 757's and reconfiigure this way could the 757 do EWR: FRA, CDG, BRU, (LHR), AND OLD: Munich - Riem (MUC / EDDM) (closed), Germany">MUC or any other destination deemed to support the premium traffic. No stop in Ireland for immigration and add on the USA side: BOS, IAD, ORD and JFK?

Why would you fly a higher cost airframe in an all business class configuration when basically all of those destinations can support a normal widebody? Flying all business class is really only necessary where there is a very high proportion of premium class demand compared to economy, and I doubt those routes have that.
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RE: What Could A UA/CO 757 Do Tatl If All Business?

Sun Jan 01, 2012 5:39 am

Quoting VC10er (Thread starter):
Would there be demand (in your opinion) for an all Business Class, UNITED TATL nose to tail, 757 that can serve more destinations because of it's configuration?

According to Boeing, if you have full fuel tanks and drop 18,000 lbs (175pax-84prem pax)X200lbs each) you pick up about 250NM extra range because the aircraft is lighter. To extend the range, you'd have to add aux tanks and that would require a lot of paperwork, etc.
I can't imagine why UA would not fly the aircraft into EWR, where they can provide connections to lots more places than just LAX and SFO.
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AADC10
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RE: What Could A UA/CO 757 Do Tatl If All Business?

Sun Jan 01, 2012 6:47 am

UA already has plenty of front cabin seats to major European business destinations. I do not think there are any destinations that they do not already serve that can support an all C 757. Where can they go with extended range on a 757? Eastern Europe? The Mediterranean? My guess would be that only major banking centers could support an all C flight and even that has a history of failure.

The all Business/First transatlantic routes were operated by small airlines with only a handful or aircraft that attempted to skim just the premium traffic but it did not appear to work. UA is a huge airline with a variety of aircraft and a route that could support an all C 757 should have enough traffic with hub feed on the U.S.A. end to support a 2 or 3 class 767.
 
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RE: What Could A UA/CO 757 Do Tatl If All Business?

Sun Jan 01, 2012 10:12 am

Quoting VC10er (Thread starter):
This way one could transfer easy at JFK to get UNITED p.s. to SFO and LAX?

If you aren't stopping at DUB/SNN how are you going to get easy transfer? You still have to go through immigration at JFK

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RE: What Could A UA/CO 757 Do Tatl If All Business?

Sun Jan 01, 2012 7:50 pm

The reasons I asked these things are 1: a 757 in all C would be a breeze to board VS a 777 etc, also I "PERSONALLY" have found the newly refitted 757's to be the best part of the merger so far on routes where one can easily trade F for a smaller ac and top service.

The only way around immigration is the "Global Scan" machine ... Take your "take on bag" and run! I guess my "idea" was sort of a United P.S. TATL, but from bigger cities in Europe. The idea I can hop on a UNITED P.S. in FRA or LHR/LCY, CDG to JFK, EWR, ORD or IAD (use Global Scan) would be a dream- and I would pay a premium. I just wasn't sure if something smaller than a 767 could do it.

My insight is when I take a UNITED 767 from LHR to ORD or IAD then through Global Scan - all I have is carry-on from a 2/3 day business trip - it had occured to me "wow" that was a breeze when I am tired and I just want to go home with no big fuss" I love UNITED FIRST on a 767, but I could live without it if I'm in cities served only by 777's or occasional 767's which fill up fast.

THANKS & HAPPY NEW YEAR!
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blueflyer
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RE: What Could A UA/CO 757 Do Tatl If All Business?

Sun Jan 01, 2012 8:52 pm

I think the only markets where it might work are 777/767 markets with over-capacity in Y and under-capacity in C. UA could downgauge the aircraft to adapt better to Y demand and throw in a C-only 757 to pick up the extra C demand.

The thing is, I can't think of a market that currently meets these criteria.
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DarkSnowyNight
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RE: What Could A UA/CO 757 Do Tatl If All Business?

Sun Jan 01, 2012 9:27 pm

Quoting CALPSAFltSkeds (Reply 5):

All that plus this...

What happens when one of those all C 757s goes tech & cancels the flight? This may not happen often, but when it does, it will quickly degenerate into a costly headache. I can't see how UA would have any spare ac in the correct configuration available. And what premium space is available on other 757s or twin aisles will already be heavily loaded, were there enough demand to start this service in the first place.

I'm not going to hazard a guess as to the exact numbers, but I cannot imagine it would take very many such incidents to wipe out the profitability of such a venture. And keeping spares around is really not an option either, as such aircraft would be useless for just about any other purpose.

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 9):
The thing is, I can't think of a market that currently meets these criteria.
Arguably the case can be made for NYC - LAX, LON - NYC. But even there, what demand there may be is already very well covered.

Quoting VC10er (Reply 2):

MaxJet was a 767, I felt a 757 may make more sense.

Remind my foggy old brain... What did EOS fly? I would speculate that even the 757 is too much plane for such an idea.



BA's OpenSkies seems to have mixed results, & as far as I can see, the jury is still out for their A318 service.

Quoting VC10er (Thread starter):

I recently flew EWR/AMS/EWR on the 757 and it was my 3rd time on one, and I happen to really enjoy the "exclusive" size/feeling of the 2 - 2 flat bed layout.

Particularly relating to OpenSkies, they already flew almost exactly this route, but eventually suspending their own AMS-JFK return in August of 2009 due to lack of sufficient demand.



In any case though, it seems that they have the market pretty well covered as it is.

Now, if UA had a bunch of paid for, wingletted 757s that they were about to throw away anyway, I could see "trying it out" for a year or two and seeing what happens. But even here, I can't imagine a lot of shareholders being ok with just running things like that up the flag pole, so to speak.

Sorry to play devil's advocate for your idea, but those are just a few of the issues that come to mind.
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ORDJOE
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RE: What Could A UA/CO 757 Do Tatl If All Business?

Mon Jan 02, 2012 12:44 am

They are not big enough to pull this off in London, open skies has this locked in for CDG. Maybe FRA, DUS, Munich, would the 757 have the legs to do from EWR or IAD, ORD? I do not see this happening.

As said this has been tried with failure for a lot. It is my understanding open skies has had trouble, they cut IAD.
 
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RE: What Could A UA/CO 757 Do Tatl If All Business?

Mon Jan 02, 2012 12:47 am

The reasons I asked these things are 1: a 757 in all C would be a breeze to board VS a 777 etc, also I "PERSONALLY" have found the newly refitted 757's to be the best part of the merger so far on routes where one can easily trade F for a smaller ac and top service.

The only way around immigration is the "Global Scan" machine ... Take your "take on bag" and run! I guess my "idea" was sort of a United P.S. TATL, but from bigger cities in Europe. The idea I can hop on a UNITED P.S. in FRA or LHR/LCY, CDG to JFK, EWR, ORD or IAD (use Global Scan) would be a dream- and I would pay a premium. I just wasn't sure if something smaller than a 767 could do it.

My insight is when I take a UNITED 767 from LHR to ORD or IAD then through Global Scan - all I have is carry-on from a 2/3 day business trip - it had occured to me "wow" that was a breeze when I am tired and I just want to go home with no big fuss" I love UNITED FIRST on a 767, but I could live without it if I'm in cities served only by 777's or occasional 767's which fill up fast.

THANKS & HAPPY NEW YEAR!
The world is missing love, let's use our flights to spread it!
 
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RE: What Could A UA/CO 757 Do Tatl If All Business?

Mon Jan 02, 2012 1:06 am

Quoting ordjoe (Reply 11):
open skies has this locked in for CDG

Open Skies operates ORY-EWR, not from CDG. That's their only remaining route after dropping ORY-IAD and AMS-JFK. .

KLM ended their all-business class BBJ service AMS-IAH operated by PrivatAir last October and LX ends their similar all-business class BBJ service ZRH-EWR, also operated by PrivatAir, at the end of March, replacing it with their own A330-300.
 
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RE: What Could A UA/CO 757 Do Tatl If All Business?

Mon Jan 02, 2012 3:12 am

Quoting VC10er (Thread starter):
as would all my bosses and the Corp travel departments

I'm not sure I share your conviction. My employer pays for premium cabin so we can sleep and work as necessary, and be more or less ready to hit the ground when we land. Whether there are 0 or 200 seats in coach class has little bearing on that. I can't see them paying a premium to pick a coach-less flight over one with coach. We certainly haven't been paying SQ more for SIN-EWR since it went all-business.
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nws2002
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RE: What Could A UA/CO 757 Do Tatl If All Business?

Mon Jan 02, 2012 3:21 am

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 10):
Remind my foggy old brain... What did EOS fly? I would speculate that even the 757 is too much plane for such an idea.

EOS was a 752 with 48 seats.
 
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RE: What Could A UA/CO 757 Do Tatl If All Business?

Mon Jan 02, 2012 3:26 am

Quoting CALPSAFltSkeds (Reply 5):
According to Boeing, if you have full fuel tanks and drop 18,000 lbs (175pax-84prem pax)X200lbs each) you pick up about 250NM extra range because the aircraft is lighter.

There's the crux of the issue - you don't gain enough range by going all-business to extend service to anywhere that it might be of use... other than:

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 9):
I think the only markets where it might work are 777/767 markets with over-capacity in Y and under-capacity in C. UA could downgauge the aircraft to adapt better to Y demand and throw in a C-only 757 to pick up the extra C demand.

Bingo.


The only other thing I could think of is, well, it WOULD help UA avoid those recent diversions/fuel stops going TATL to IAD!
 
747400sp
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RE: What Could A UA/CO 757 Do Tatl If All Business?

Mon Jan 02, 2012 5:25 am

I like this ideal, the 757 is such a good jet for all business class service, it's not to big and not to small, also, 757s has the power and range to do all business TATL.
 
BMI727
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RE: What Could A UA/CO 757 Do Tatl If All Business?

Mon Jan 02, 2012 6:15 am

Quoting VC10er (Reply 8):
The idea I can hop on a UNITED P.S. in FRA or LHR/LCY, CDG to JFK, EWR, ORD or IAD (use Global Scan) would be a dream- and I would pay a premium. I just wasn't sure if something smaller than a 767 could do it.

PS is only PS compared to the domestic product. It isn't really an upgrade over the standard international service. Saving five minutes in boarding would be the only real advantage and it just isn't worth it.

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 9):
I think the only markets where it might work are 777/767 markets with over-capacity in Y and under-capacity in C.

   And you're right, there really are no markets like that.

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 10):
What did EOS fly? I would speculate that even the 757 is too much plane for such an idea.

They had 757s. Maxjet and Silverjet had 767s.

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 10):
BA's OpenSkies seems to have mixed results, & as far as I can see, the jury is still out for their A318 service.

The A318 seems to be a success. All business class service can be a success, but only in certain markets and more importantly, not as a standalone airline. Such services absolutely need the power of a major carrier behind them in the form of corporate contracts and frequent fliers. Without that, any all-business class airline won't have access to the customers that they need to have to succeed.

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 14):
My employer pays for premium cabin so we can sleep and work as necessary, and be more or less ready to hit the ground when we land. Whether there are 0 or 200 seats in coach class has little bearing on that.

  

Quoting 747400sp (Reply 17):

I like this ideal, the 757 is such a good jet for all business class service, it's not to big and not to small, also, 757s has the power and range to do all business TATL.

The problem is that the business case is unlikely to work.
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