User avatar
scbriml
Topic Author
Posts: 13700
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Hong Kong Airlines Orders 10 A380s

Fri Jan 06, 2012 1:03 pm

Bloomberg is reporting that Hong Kong Airlines just ordered 10 A380s. If true, I guess the "row" over ETS is nowhere near as bad as some would like it to be.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-0...a380s-from-hong-kong-airlines.html

Quote:
Airbus, the world’s largest passenger-jet maker, won a contract from Hong Kong Airlines Ltd. (HKAIRZ) for 10 double decker A380s, valued at about $38 billion at list prices.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
User avatar
EPA001
Posts: 3802
Joined: Tue Sep 12, 2006 8:13 pm

RE: Hong Kong Airlines Orders 10 A380s

Fri Jan 06, 2012 1:06 pm

That would be great news since it is quite a large order from a new operator.  

Now we have to wait until the news is made official.
 
travelavnut
Posts: 1327
Joined: Wed May 12, 2010 1:35 pm

RE: Hong Kong Airlines Orders 10 A380s

Fri Jan 06, 2012 1:09 pm

Yaay!! Congrats to Airbus and Hong Kong airlines!   
Live From Amsterdam!
 
IndianicWorld
Posts: 2823
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2001 11:32 am

RE: Hong Kong Airlines Orders 10 A380s

Fri Jan 06, 2012 1:27 pm

What routes would they look at deploying them on? That's a lot of capacity.
 
ba319-131
Posts: 8159
Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2001 1:27 pm

RE: Hong Kong Airlines Orders 10 A380s

Fri Jan 06, 2012 1:28 pm

Finally!!

First expected at the Paris Air Show back in 2011!
111,732,3,4,5,7,8,BBJ,741,742,743,744,752,762,763,764,772,77L,773,77W,L15,D10,30,40,AB3,AB6,A312.313,319,320,321,332,333
 
Ruscoe
Posts: 1587
Joined: Sun Aug 22, 1999 5:41 pm

RE: Hong Kong Airlines Orders 10 A380s

Fri Jan 06, 2012 1:29 pm

Do you think the timing of the announcement could in any way be related to the A380 wing crack problem?

It is certainly nice to have a new order in the midst of this to maintain confidence.

Ruscoe
 
User avatar
Focker
Posts: 131
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2011 8:37 pm

RE: Hong Kong Airlines Orders 10 A380s

Fri Jan 06, 2012 1:32 pm

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 1):
Now we have to wait until the news is made official.

I guess this will be announced on the 17th - on Airbus' annual press conference.

In addition there is rumour on A380production.com saying Transasia (Taiwan) is planning to order 2 A380's. If that rumour holds truth the MOU might be announced on the 17th as well.
 
aloges
Posts: 14842
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 3:38 am

RE: Hong Kong Airlines Orders 10 A380s

Fri Jan 06, 2012 1:33 pm

Quoting scbriml (Thread starter):
Bloomberg is reporting that Hong Kong Airlines just ordered 10 A380s.

Fingers crossed!

Quoting scbriml (Thread starter):
If true, I guess the "row" over ETS is nowhere near as bad as some would like it to be.

Of course it isn't - nothing is eaten as hot as it is cooked.   However Hong Kong isn't China proper, which may have played a role.

[Edited 2012-01-06 05:34:23]
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
mikey72
Posts: 1439
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2009 1:31 pm

RE: Hong Kong Airlines Orders 10 A380s

Fri Jan 06, 2012 1:43 pm

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 3):
What routes would they look at deploying them on? That's a lot of capacity.

5 daily to LGW ?

  
Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
 
User avatar
Heavierthanair
Posts: 861
Joined: Tue Oct 31, 2000 11:20 pm

RE: Hong Kong Airlines Orders 10 A380s

Fri Jan 06, 2012 1:44 pm

G'day

So they can now remove that sticker clearly visible on that pic


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Matteo Stella



The Bloomberg article states

quote:

10 double decker A380s, valued at about $38 billion at list prices.

unquote

those $38 billion could mean several things:

- the order is for 100 units - unless the try to copy Emirates not very likely   
- there has been a price increase - OK, the Euro is weak at the moment - but not that weak   
- the reporter at Bloomberg needs a new calculator - more likely   

I guess we now have to wait for them confirming the 747-8 order as well. Exciting times ahead   

Cheers

Peter
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." (Albert Einstein, 1879 - 1955)
 
Rara
Posts: 2296
Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2007 7:41 am

RE: Hong Kong Airlines Orders 10 A380s

Fri Jan 06, 2012 1:46 pm

Finally, that's been in the works for a while.

So is this a hidden Hong Kong / Hainan Airlines joint order? Is it possible the A380s will eventually be operated under Hainan branding?
Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
 
Jack
Posts: 99
Joined: Sat Jul 05, 2003 7:58 am

RE: Hong Kong Airlines Orders 10 A380s

Fri Jan 06, 2012 1:52 pm

2011 order I assume?
 
PlymSpotter
Posts: 10022
Joined: Thu Jun 17, 2004 7:32 am

RE: Hong Kong Airlines Orders 10 A380s

Fri Jan 06, 2012 2:00 pm

Quoting Heavierthanair (Reply 9):
- the reporter at Bloomberg needs a new calculator - more likely   

Or one with a working decimal point button perhaps?
...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
 
B738FlyUIA
Posts: 398
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2009 4:20 pm

RE: Hong Kong Airlines Orders 10 A380s

Fri Jan 06, 2012 2:03 pm

Quoting Heavierthanair (Reply 9):
So they can now remove that sticker clearly visible on that pic

That is really a good catch...   As the stickers are set in alphabetical order!!!!

Quoting Heavierthanair (Reply 9):
I guess we now have to wait for them confirming the 747-8 order as well. Exciting times ahead

little off topic but was my thoughts aswell !!!! Maybe there are ordered in the same amount!!!!

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 8):
5 daily to LGW ?

I wonder if LHR will have the capacity for all inkl. A380's from SQ, EK with all there flights...??!!
 
mickey90
Posts: 63
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2011 5:59 pm

RE: Hong Kong Airlines Orders 10 A380s

Fri Jan 06, 2012 2:07 pm

Great news!

This will probably put some pressure on CX to order some a380s.
It's better to be in the air wishing you were on the ground than being on the ground wishing you were in the air
 
slinky09
Posts: 609
Joined: Sat Jun 06, 2009 5:03 pm

RE: Hong Kong Airlines Orders 10 A380s

Fri Jan 06, 2012 2:20 pm

Great news, x10 is a nice order and to a new airline.

Quoting Heavierthanair (Reply 9):
those $38 billion could mean several things:

- the order is for 100 units - unless the try to copy Emirates not very likely   

Very funny!

Quoting Heavierthanair (Reply 9):
So they can now remove that sticker clearly visible on that pic

I'm still amazed that Virgin Atlantic is on there!

Quoting B738FlyUIA (Reply 13):
I wonder if LHR will have the capacity for all inkl. A380's from SQ, EK with all there flights...??!!

They don't currently fly to LHR do they ... and are not in any alliance? So if they did likely T3 which means sharing gates with SQ, QF and EK ... sounds like T3 will need some more A380 gates ...
 
StanleyJ
Posts: 22
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2010 10:05 am

RE: Hong Kong Airlines Orders 10 A380s

Fri Jan 06, 2012 2:41 pm

Quoting slinky09 (Reply 15):
They don't currently fly to LHR do they ... and are not in any alliance? So if they did likely T3 which means sharing gates with SQ, QF and EK ... sounds like T3 will need some more A380 gates ...

Ah! But HX will be flying HKG-LGW... so no LHR, as per here:

http://www.hongkongairlines.com/club/

Given it'll be the flagship route, makes sense to upgauge that one first. Where else HX will fly by 2015... well, that's for the rumour mill.  

[Edited 2012-01-06 06:45:03]
 
User avatar
scbriml
Topic Author
Posts: 13700
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

RE: Hong Kong Airlines Orders 10 A380s

Fri Jan 06, 2012 3:34 pm

Quoting Ruscoe (Reply 5):
Do you think the timing of the announcement could in any way be related to the A380 wing crack problem?

It is certainly nice to have a new order in the midst of this to maintain confidence.

You really are a half-empty guy when it comes to Airbus, aren't you?   

Given that neither Airbus nor the airline have made an announcement, do you believe this is some sort of a conspiracy?

Quoting aloges (Reply 7):
However Hong Kong isn't China proper

No, but Hong Kong Airlines is part-owned by Hainan Airlines, which is.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
LGWflyer
Posts: 2233
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 6:38 pm

RE: Hong Kong Airlines Orders 10 A380s

Fri Jan 06, 2012 3:37 pm

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 8):

5 daily to LGW ?

Haha I very much hope so!  
3 words... I Love Aviation!!!
 
astuteman
Posts: 6406
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 7:50 pm

RE: Hong Kong Airlines Orders 10 A380s

Fri Jan 06, 2012 3:40 pm

Quoting scbriml (Thread starter):
Bloomberg is reporting that Hong Kong Airlines just ordered 10 A380s. If true, I guess the "row" over ETS is nowhere near as bad as some would like it to be.

Which would make 29 gross and 19 net for the year I guess...

Quoting scbriml (Reply 17):
You really are a half-empty guy when it comes to Airbus, aren't you?

Half empty? There's optimism for you  

Rgds
 
CXB77L
Posts: 2608
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:18 pm

RE: Hong Kong Airlines Orders 10 A380s

Fri Jan 06, 2012 3:55 pm

Quoting Heavierthanair (Reply 9):
10 double decker A380s, valued at about $38 billion at list prices.

It says $3.8 billion now, so the article must've been edited since you read it.
Boeing 777 fanboy
 
User avatar
notaxonrotax
Posts: 972
Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2011 2:29 pm

RE: Hong Kong Airlines Orders 10 A380s

Fri Jan 06, 2012 4:22 pm

Quoting Ruscoe (Reply 5):
Do you think the timing of the announcement could in any way be related to the A380 wing crack problem?

I do not........do you?

Shame A380 has so many enemies on this site. I for one am pleased with this announcement, we just have to see if it is true.

Come on CX / KL, what are you waiting for?
Those slots had your name on them.............

No Tax On Rotax
For anybody that happens to be wondering:"yes, owning your own aircraft is a 100% worth it!"
 
na
Posts: 9211
Joined: Sun Dec 12, 1999 3:52 am

RE: Hong Kong Airlines Orders 10 A380s

Fri Jan 06, 2012 4:23 pm

Nice beginning of the supposedly slowed down order race of 2012.

Quoting mickey90 (Reply 14):
This will probably put some pressure on CX to order some a380s.

Sure. And a kick for Air China, too. I wouldnt wonder if by year´s end we´ll look back at ca. 15 A380 (or 748I) orders from CX and 10 from Air China. I would wonder if not. Both need new top-of-the-line aircraft by 2015.
 
CXB77L
Posts: 2608
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:18 pm

RE: Hong Kong Airlines Orders 10 A380s

Fri Jan 06, 2012 4:29 pm

Quoting mickey90 (Reply 14):
This will probably put some pressure on CX to order some a380s.

Why would it? CX and HX are different airlines run by different people with different plans for the airline. It has never been good business practice to order an aircraft just because a competitor has one. Any aircraft order should only be made when there is a need for that particular aircraft in that airline's fleet. The fact that HX has ordered 10 A380s has absolutely nothing to do with whether CX will also order them.
Boeing 777 fanboy
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 23486
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

RE: Hong Kong Airlines Orders 10 A380s

Fri Jan 06, 2012 4:38 pm

Quoting na (Reply 22):
Nice beginning of the supposedly slowed down order race of 2012.

Is this a 2012 order? The Bloomberg article seemed to imply it would go on 2011's books.
 
User avatar
ER757
Posts: 2512
Joined: Tue May 10, 2005 10:16 am

RE: Hong Kong Airlines Orders 10 A380s

Fri Jan 06, 2012 5:01 pm

Quoting B738FlyUIA (Reply 13):
Quoting Heavierthanair (Reply 9):
I guess we now have to wait for them confirming the 747-8 order as well. Exciting times ahead

little off topic but was my thoughts aswell !!!! Maybe there are ordered in the same amount!!!!


The 748 order was to be for 15 units IIRC

Good news for the A380 - always great to see a new operator for a four-holer!
 
virgin747
Posts: 289
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 1999 12:20 am

RE: Hong Kong Airlines Orders 10 A380s

Fri Jan 06, 2012 5:18 pm

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 23):
Why would it? CX and HX are different airlines run by different people with different plans for the airline. It has never been good business practice to order an aircraft just because a competitor has one. Any aircraft order should only be made when there is a need for that particular aircraft in that airline's fleet. The fact that HX has ordered 10 A380s has absolutely nothing to do with whether CX will also order them.

Thats what I was thinking of too. Besides CX is committing themselves to the 773/A330 for their long term fleet plans. They seem to order more every other month. Besides it gives them some flex in terms of scheduling. Have 2 flights a day versus the one big one.
 
mham001
Posts: 4349
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 4:52 am

RE: Hong Kong Airlines Orders 10 A380s

Fri Jan 06, 2012 5:20 pm

Quoting na (Reply 22):

Nice beginning of the supposedly slowed down order race of 2012.

That depends on whether or not Airbus finds it more convenient to extend the calender year to fit their PR needs.
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 23486
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

RE: Hong Kong Airlines Orders 10 A380s

Fri Jan 06, 2012 5:42 pm

Quoting mham001 (Reply 28):
That depends on whether or not Airbus finds it more convenient to extend the calender year to fit their PR needs.

Airbus has always announced the previous year's orders in January.

Not to mention they have so handily won the 2011 orders race, 10 additional orders isn't going to make a heap of a difference.

For PR purposes, I would expect starting 2012 with an order for 10 A380-800s from a new customer would have more impact than adding it on to the tail of the 2011 order wave.
 
na
Posts: 9211
Joined: Sun Dec 12, 1999 3:52 am

RE: Hong Kong Airlines Orders 10 A380s

Fri Jan 06, 2012 6:10 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 24):
Is this a 2012 order? The Bloomberg article seemed to imply it would go on 2011's books.

Ok, it seems like 2011 in the books, but as it is announced in 2012 for me its a nice beginning of 2012!
 
kbdude
Posts: 124
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2006 7:03 am

RE: Hong Kong Airlines Orders 10 A380s

Fri Jan 06, 2012 6:18 pm

so does this mean that the 15x747-8i order will not happen?

That would be a lot of VLA.
 
PezySPU
Posts: 281
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 1:27 pm

RE: Hong Kong Airlines Orders 10 A380s

Fri Jan 06, 2012 6:18 pm

Quoting ba319-131 (Reply 4):
First expected at the Paris Air Show back in 2011!

Yes, but back then China blocked this order in protest against the ETS.

http://www.centreforaviation.com/new...doubt-due-to-eu-ets-dispute-108738

Quoting scbriml (Thread starter):
If true, I guess the "row" over ETS is nowhere near as bad as some would like it to be.

Nah, it's just China changing its strategy from "we're against ETS" to "there's no such a thing as ETS".
 
mickey90
Posts: 63
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2011 5:59 pm

RE: Hong Kong Airlines Orders 10 A380s

Fri Jan 06, 2012 6:21 pm

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 23):
Why would it? CX and HX are different airlines run by different people with different plans for the airline. It has never been good business practice to order an aircraft just because a competitor has one. Any aircraft order should only be made when there is a need for that particular aircraft in that airline's fleet. The fact that HX has ordered 10 A380s has absolutely nothing to do with whether CX will also order them.

I have to disagree with you. A lot o travellers chooses the a380 over other alternatives. Just look at LH, they mark every a380 flight on their website. The lower CASM on the a380 will also make HX more competitive against CX and therefor they can lower their prices which is a deciding factor for low yielding passengers.

Quoting virgin747 (Reply 27):
Thats what I was thinking of too. Besides CX is committing themselves to the 773/A330 for their long term fleet plans. They seem to order more every other month. Besides it gives them some flex in terms of scheduling. Have 2 flights a day versus the one big one.

It's just a matter of time before HKG will be slot restricted and then it will be impossible for CX to add on frequencies.
It's better to be in the air wishing you were on the ground than being on the ground wishing you were in the air
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 23486
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

RE: Hong Kong Airlines Orders 10 A380s

Fri Jan 06, 2012 6:32 pm

Quoting kbdude (Reply 31):
so does this mean that the 15x747-8i order will not happen?

Assuming HX is the customer, they've put money down (as Boeing has stated a "commitment" requires a deposit), so that implies a serious intent to acquire them. And since Airbus already had an MoU in hand for 10 A380-800s, it implies HX feels they need a large VLA fleet.

But only time will tell.
 
something
Posts: 1239
Joined: Fri May 13, 2011 5:29 pm

RE: Hong Kong Airlines Orders 10 A380s

Fri Jan 06, 2012 6:48 pm

Quoting mickey90 (Reply 33):
The lower CASM on the a380 will also make HX more competitive against CX and therefor they can lower their prices which is a deciding factor for low yielding passengers.

It is a little more complex than that. The 77W can haul significantly more cargo than the A380 and an A380 only has a lower CASM when all seats are sold. Furthermore, CX (and One World) have a lot more connections at HKG than CRK presently does.

Nevertheless, the A380 is a very popular product among travellers of all classes and I don't have the slightest doubt they can make it work, especially if the Hainan/Hong Kong - Star Alliance rumour should materialize.

Quoting mickey90 (Reply 33):
It's just a matter of time before HKG will be slot restricted and then it will be impossible for CX to add on frequencies.

The frequency argument is a fallacy to begin with. Look at BA on the JFK-LHR route for instance. Just this morning I saw a BA 744 and a 777 arrive back to back. Look at the timings of the HKG-JFK flights on CX. Or look at SQ that actually did reduce SIN-ZRH from 2x 777 to 1x A388. That allowed them to open a new destination and they seem very happy with things as they are.

Give the A380 a couple of years of increasing slot restrictions, of crowded airports, of rising fuel costs, rising labor costs, and growing demand for air travel and you will see a lot more A380s orders rolling in.
..sick of it. -K. Pilkington.
 
astuteman
Posts: 6406
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 7:50 pm

RE: Hong Kong Airlines Orders 10 A380s

Fri Jan 06, 2012 6:59 pm

Quoting astuteman (Reply 19):
Which would make 29 gross and 19 net for the year I guess...

As a historical footnote, it also takes net orders to 253, thus achieving the originally quoted break-even just 11 years after launch, with 3 of those being essentially "lost" to history because of the delays and ramp-up issues...

Not bad for a plane with no market and no business case.....   

Quoting Stitch (Reply 29):
For PR purposes, I would expect starting 2012 with an order for 10 A380-800s from a new customer would have more impact than adding it on to the tail of the 2011 order wave.

I presume they'll book it in the year in which the ink hit the paper, like they always do, and avoid the A-net conspiracy theories with a studied care.....
Just like I will  
Quoting kbdude (Reply 31):
so does this mean that the 15x747-8i order will not happen?

I don't see why it should.

Rgds
 
CHRISBA777ER
Posts: 3715
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2001 12:12 pm

RE: Hong Kong Airlines Orders 10 A380s

Fri Jan 06, 2012 7:05 pm

Quoting astuteman (Reply 36):
Quoting astuteman (Reply 19):
Which would make 29 gross and 19 net for the year I guess...

As a historical footnote, it also takes net orders to 253, thus achieving the originally quoted break-even just 11 years after launch, with 3 of those being essentially "lost" to history because of the delays and ramp-up issues...

Not bad for a plane with no market and no business case.....

And this is before the second generation of A388 and the new A389 are even formally launched, within four years of EIS.

Nice  
What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
 
dfambro
Posts: 329
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2009 10:32 pm

RE: Hong Kong Airlines Orders 10 A380s

Fri Jan 06, 2012 7:25 pm

Quoting something (Reply 35):
The frequency argument is a fallacy to begin with.

I really disagree, as someone who buys a good deal of international tickets to a variety of destinations. I get very frustrated with the lack of scheduling flexibility on many routes. And then I read people on this sight saying that, for example, there's really only one flight time that makes sense for a long international flight like ORD-HKG, and it's completely contrary to my experience.

If a 744 and a 77W are flying essentially the same timeslot, then sure swapping in a 380 for both makes a ton of sense. But take, say, a 5pm departure and a 10pm departure and combine them, and you're really messing with my flexibility.
 
User avatar
ER757
Posts: 2512
Joined: Tue May 10, 2005 10:16 am

RE: Hong Kong Airlines Orders 10 A380s

Fri Jan 06, 2012 8:10 pm

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 37):
And this is before the second generation of A388 and the new A389 are even formally launched, within four years of EIS.

Exactly - too many people fail to take the long view. Yeah, it was (and still is to some extent) a drain on EADS' finances, but over the life of the program, I've no doubt it will be a positive ROI - a very positive ROI
 
cosmofly
Posts: 195
Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 3:36 pm

RE: Hong Kong Airlines Orders 10 A380s

Fri Jan 06, 2012 8:29 pm

Is it possible that Hong Kong Airlines is betting to use A388 as a WOW factor to take market share from CX, leveraging the fact that CX has not yet ordered the A388?

CX is well entrenched and what can Hong Kong Airlines do to leap frog to become a major player in HK?
 
ebbuk
Posts: 844
Joined: Thu May 11, 2006 6:47 am

RE: Hong Kong Airlines Orders 10 A380s

Fri Jan 06, 2012 8:35 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 29):
For PR purposes, I would expect starting 2012 with an order for 10 A380-800s from a new customer would have more impact than adding it on to the tail of the 2011 order wave.

No let's leave the PR games to the experts across the Atlantic pond. Also I'm not sure that the sales teams who have bonus related pay would sacrifice a dime of their hard work this year for a PR stunt.

Anyway we don't know what is so do we? Until both A and the airline make an announcement, we won't know for sure.
 
Gemuser
Posts: 4403
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 12:07 pm

RE: Hong Kong Airlines Orders 10 A380s

Fri Jan 06, 2012 10:40 pm

Quoting something (Reply 35):
an A380 only has a lower CASM when all seats are sold

Would you please stop saying that!!! Is not true!!!

Yes the A380 must have a certain load factor to have a lower CASK than the B77W and it is more pax, BUT it is not always 100% load factor! That load factor depends on a number of factors that vary from airline to airline and even flight to flight!

Gemuser
DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
 
alangirvan
Posts: 522
Joined: Wed Nov 08, 2000 2:13 pm

RE: Hong Kong Airlines Orders 10 A380s

Fri Jan 06, 2012 11:03 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 34):
Quoting kbdude (Reply 31):
so does this mean that the 15x747-8i order will not happen?

Assuming HX is the customer, they've put money down (as Boeing has stated a "commitment" requires a deposit), so that implies a serious intent to acquire them. And since Airbus already had an MoU in hand for 10 A380-800s, it implies HX feels they need a large VLA fleet.

If they do go through with both orders, it will be interesting to see if they use the two types for different types of routes or interchangeably. A380s might be for routes to Europe, and 748is might be for North America. We know that CX places a high priority on best possible payload on HKG-JFK, and since HX want to fly similar routes, they will want the best performance on that sector.

10 planes will be enough for some routes - if HX wants to use A380s on HKG to London, that might use 2-3 planes for a daily service, and if they want to use A380s to SYD and MEL, that would be another couple of planes. If they want to give good connection times at HKG between UK and Australia, that might mean using planes that allow multiple daily frequencies.

Is this an order that CX will believe, when they see the first A380 arrive in HKG for HX? Previous practice has been for CX to buy a Hong Kong based competitor, or jump on a route when the competitor announces it.
 
ikramerica
Posts: 13808
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

RE: Hong Kong Airlines Orders 10 A380s

Fri Jan 06, 2012 11:25 pm

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 1):
That would be great news since it is quite a large order from a new operator.

Quite a large order from an airline with a few narrowbodies and a few A330s. 10 A388s and 15 748s?

Quoting astuteman (Reply 36):
Not bad for a plane with no market and no business case.....

What a load of hooey. Now fantastically failing to come close to profitability is something to be proud of?

1. Original breakeven was a pipedream/lie perpetrated onto the EU taxpayer to justify the aircraft
2. The business case was justified by a 20 year projection for 750 aircraft based on the ORIGINAL business parameters, not 250 aircraft after 11 years.

It's a fine aircraft, and one to be proud of from a "it got built" point of view and probably from a jobs program point of view, but it's business case is far from proven by these numbers.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Crew
Posts: 12043
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

RE: Hong Kong Airlines Orders 10 A380s

Fri Jan 06, 2012 11:44 pm

Quoting Heavierthanair (Reply 9):
10 double decker A380s, valued at about $38 billion at list prices.

Dang, Leary is good!  
Quoting something (Reply 35):
an A380 only has a lower CASM when all seats are sold.

Huh? Casm on the A380 is about 14% lower than the 77W. Thus, it is cheaper to fly each person on an A380 with 70+ empty seats versus a 100% 77W. However, CASM is 'Cost per Available Seat Mile.' So it doesn't matter if a seat is full or not. Same with RASM. (Revenue per Available Seat Mile.) That is the big advantage of the A380: it can be "abused" (in SQ's words) and flown with many empty seats and yet still make more profit than a 77W (assuming the route is low cargo or poor cargo yield).

And peak RASM is never with consistent 100% full seats. One should always keep some percentage of seats open for last minute business fares. Trust me on this. I've sat next to someone who paid 20% of what my company paid for my last minute fare. Due to the extremely high fares of last minute walk on business people, a flight will keep 5% to 100% of the seats open for full fares only.

The best example is when SQ put an A388 onto ZRH and CDG at 7X week (each city) instead of 10X/week of smaller aircraft. There was a cost savings of 5% despite a high increase in the number of seats. In that case, the premium for the added 3X/week flights was less than than the cost savings.

Since we're discussing HKG, Hong Kong airlines will be able to use the A380s to quite a few destinations where having a lower CASM will allow entry into markets they otherwise wouldn't be able to enter.

In fact, I see an issue for whomever is not currently the most popular on several HKG routes unless they fly A380s with their low CASM.

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 44):
It's a fine aircraft, and one to be proud of from a "it got built" point of view and probably from a jobs program point of view, but it's business case is far from proven by these numbers.

It is also a fine aircraft for the airlines that operate it. At this point, the cost to manufacture each airframe is less than the sales price. The 'sunk costs' make it a bad business case. But the 1st rule of business is ignore 'sunk costs' and do business.

Ligthsaber
"They did not know it was impossible, so they did it!" - Mark Twain
 
ikramerica
Posts: 13808
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

RE: Hong Kong Airlines Orders 10 A380s

Sat Jan 07, 2012 12:01 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 45):
It is also a fine aircraft for the airlines that operate it.

That's a good point, so far. So is the 764ER though. And the 77L. It will likely be the case for the 748i. Doesn't mean any of those have/will sell in numbers that justify their business case (though the 77L being part of a family made it a low risk offering that helped kill off the competition).
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
something
Posts: 1239
Joined: Fri May 13, 2011 5:29 pm

RE: Hong Kong Airlines Orders 10 A380s

Sat Jan 07, 2012 12:03 am

Quoting gemuser (Reply 42):
Quoting something (Reply 35):
an A380 only has a lower CASM when all seats are sold

Would you please stop saying that!!! Is not true!!!

Yes the A380 must have a certain load factor to have a lower CASK than the B77W and it is more pax, BUT it is not always 100% load factor! That load factor depends on a number of factors that vary from airline to airline and even flight to flight!
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 45):

Yes, that was a very poor choice of words on my part. Sorry about that.

My point was that yes, an A380 does have a lower CASM than the 77W, with the caveat that you need to sell a higher number of seats to get there.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 45):
And peak RASM is never with consistent 100% full seats. One should always keep some percentage of seats open for last minute business fares. Trust me on this. I've sat next to someone who paid 20% of what my company paid for my last minute fare. Due to the extremely high fares of last minute walk on business people, a flight will keep 5% to 100% of the seats open for full fares only.

Well not only this, but also by the configuration of the aircraft. But you know the problem with high-revenue sales is that every empty seat hurts the airline more, than selling two seats for 60% of that high fare. I've spent a good amount of time thinking about yield management and it's a super large gamble.

But that's all beside the point. You're both of course right and I should have worded things more carefully and precisely.

Just for future reference.. I like the A380 quite a bit and I am only too optimistic about it if anything. So please don't ever mistake me for the ''2-seater-supersonic-point-to-point-jets-are-the-future-bro'' crowd again :P
..sick of it. -K. Pilkington.
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 10106
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

RE: Hong Kong Airlines Orders 10 A380s

Sat Jan 07, 2012 12:14 am

Quoting virgin747 (Reply 27):
Besides CX is committing themselves to the 773/A330 for their long term fleet plans.

CX have not made such a statement.

Quoting something (Reply 35):
The 77W can haul significantly more cargo than the A380 and an A380 only has a lower CASM when all seats are sold.

They 77W has more cargo volume, however it does not lift as much payload as an A380.

CASK/CASM is the same regardless of the load factor. The A380 does not need to have 100% load factors to have higher yields than a 77W.

Looking at one type vs another is not really relevant, what one needs to look at is how these would fit into the overall operation. Is a large cargo hold on a passenger aircraft that important if you have dedicated freighters ? Buying a new VLA like an A380 to add capacity to an existing frequency, does that mean that that a 77W cannot also be used on the same route on another frequency ?

Quoting dfambro (Reply 38):
I really disagree, as someone who buys a good deal of international tickets to a variety of destinations. I get very frustrated with the lack of scheduling flexibility on many routes. And then I read people on this sight saying that, for example, there's really only one flight time that makes sense for a long international flight like ORD-HKG, and it's completely contrary to my experience.

Are you willing to pay the price for that flexibility ?

Many airlines are no longer flying in the USA because they were offering frequencies and aircraft which passengers were not willing to pay for. On a long haul international operation, it takes a significant business case to start a new frequency, and often when starting a new frequency you do it with a smaller aircraft, and then build up the market to a larger aircraft.

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 44):

Quite a large order from an airline with a few narrowbodies and a few A330s. 10 A388s and 15 748s?

I do not think those aircraft will remain in HKG long term. There is already a steady stream of aircraft that have flown with Hong Kong Airlines. Hong Kong Express Airways, and business jets that were put onto the B register in HKG and then moved to mainland China B register at a later date. At this time it appears mainland China is letting this mechanism to continue to being aircraft into mainland China and bypassing taxes.
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
 
User avatar
PanAm_DC10
Crew
Posts: 3819
Joined: Wed Aug 23, 2000 7:37 am

RE: Hong Kong Airlines Orders 10 A380s

Sat Jan 07, 2012 12:25 am

Good to see this order finalised, they needed to get this signed given the carrier had already announced the first delivery dates starting in 2013 for the first IIRC.

They said they'd take 4, await the 17th to see if all go to them or 6 to HNA group. Good inroad to China for Airbus this order with a second confirmed carrier and possibly a third now taking the model.
Ask the impossible to achieve the best possible
 
ikramerica
Posts: 13808
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

RE: Hong Kong Airlines Orders 10 A380s

Sat Jan 07, 2012 12:36 am

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 50):
Good to see this order finalised, they needed to get this signed given the carrier had already announced the first delivery dates starting in 2013 for the first IIRC.

The article from bloomberg says 2015.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos