dougbr2006
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Rumour : GOL To Restart Varig Inter Flts

Sat Jan 07, 2012 5:47 pm

In an Economic Newspaper there appeared an article that GOL was looking at the possibility
of relaunching VARIG International Flights Using New B787's that were cancelled by GulfAir
through a leasing company.

Nothing concrete yet but makes interesting reading (Only in Portuguese) http://migre.me/7qSIi
 
VC10er
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RE: Rumour : GOL To Restart Varig Inter Flts

Sat Jan 07, 2012 6:05 pm

As a VARIG lover, I would LOVE that. History has shown that once an airline brand dies it's near impossible to revive it. The multiple attempts on Pan Am is a good case in point. But i think Brazil does need a #2 international airline to challenge TAM. And there is latent equity in the VARIG brand name that's good.

But it was tried once with a handful of 767's, I would think GOL would understand why that flopped so bad and not repeat what went so wrong. I think it was too soon after RG failed and too close to RG's final years where it may have been the worst airline ever and an embarrassment to Brazil. Plus, there was no alliance for them to feed from- and people want MILES!

But if I will say a prayer that this time it will defy history and make a come-back. Also, I think half the world still thinks RG is still Brazil's airline and TAM's awareness is like zero worldwide. Even given their size and recent news about the formation of LANTAM.

I do think that a fleet of 787's and one-up TAM in service and style would be necessary. Too bad they couldn't join Star Alliance and get the help from Lufthansa the old VARIG had.
The world is missing love, let's use our flights to spread it!
 
PPVRA
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RE: Rumour : GOL To Restart Varig Inter Flts

Sat Jan 07, 2012 6:23 pm

Well, best of luck. I hope it happens and that they are successful, but it will be a challenge trying to revive the RG brand.

And I hope they start out by flying somewhere more common sense, like Miami.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
klkla
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RE: Rumour : GOL To Restart Varig Inter Flts

Sat Jan 07, 2012 10:47 pm

With DL now having an equity interest and seat on the board of GOL could this be a way of getting more slots to U.S.?

In the past there were a lot of unused frequencies that could be used by Brazilian airlines. Don't know if that's still the case.
 
jfk777
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RE: Rumour : GOL To Restart Varig Inter Flts

Sat Jan 07, 2012 11:09 pm

Brazil needs to double its international airline capacity with its booming economy. A Gol Varig branded airline may just be what is needed but used 777-200ER may be more practical. There are few 787 or A330 available but soon there will plenty of used 777-200ER's.
 
C010T3
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RE: Rumour : GOL To Restart Varig Inter Flts

Sun Jan 08, 2012 2:29 am

Quoting klkla (Reply 3):
In the past there were a lot of unused frequencies that could be used by Brazilian airlines. Don't know if that's still the case.

That's still the case, but what's the purpose? US and Brazil will have open skies by October 2015.
 
rg787
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RE: Rumour : GOL To Restart Varig Inter Flts

Sun Jan 08, 2012 6:23 am

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 4):
Brazil needs to double its international airline capacity with its booming economy. A Gol Varig branded airline may just be what is needed but used 777-200ER may be more practical. There are few 787 or A330 available but soon there will plenty of used 777-200ER's.

Using used 772 would be almost the same thing as the 767s they used years ago. The planes they will find in the market will not be as economical, and the capacity of the plane is higher. For a 'starting' airline, maybe the 787 is the smartest choice. Not a small plane at all and it has the legs to do a lot of routes. After some reading, my understanding is that the failure of Gol/Varig back when they got 767s was because of the 767s and the bad image they had at the time. People at least in Brazil were afraid of flying them because of the news that people were stranded in Europe, mid-world cup, and didn't have any way to come back home. In Brazil the name Varig is almost dead, except for the old guys that have a very good memory of what was Varig in the good days. I am not sure about Varig's image outside of Brazil, but it seems they are very well known and people still think of it as if they were in the good days. With some good strategy and partners, this venture may work very well. What I'm thinking will be a problem is how they are going to make the Varig brand known in Brazil, because Gol is the brand used domestically. Any ideas?
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Rumour : GOL To Restart Varig Inter Flts

Sun Jan 08, 2012 9:33 am

Quoting VC10er (Reply 1):
As a VARIG lover, I would LOVE that. History has shown that once an airline brand dies it's near impossible to revive it. The multiple attempts on Pan Am is a good case in point.

I might argue that the "Swissair" branding lived on in the new "Swiss." Same font, same color palate, same tail. But in general, you are correct.
-Doc Lightning-

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sampa737
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RE: Rumour : GOL To Restart Varig Inter Flts

Sun Jan 08, 2012 10:50 am

This would be great news. TAM and GOL happened to be in the right place at the right time. The economy tanked. I've lived in Brasil for over 16 years. It's time for this emerging economy to have a greater influence in the world airline market. I am not an expert. This is a type of "hobby" for me so I often times fear my remarks in here with you guys! It wasn't but a dozen years ago, or less, when Brasil flew the likes of Varig, Trans Brasil and VASP around the world. And now, only one airline, TAM. I drive past Congonhas many times during the week. I see an occasional Varig plane taking off and think how cool it'd be to see the Varig name on a 767 flying to Europe or the US out of Garulhos once again. The original Varig may be long gone but people still talk about the airline. There is a sense of pride and I believe Brasilians would welcome and support a successful Varig International. Personally, I wish GOL would bring back the previous livery. It was classy, stood out and recognized. The current livery is too "GOL" and looks LCC to me.
 
jfk777
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RE: Rumour : GOL To Restart Varig Inter Flts

Sun Jan 08, 2012 12:45 pm

Quoting rg787 (Reply 6):
Using used 772 would be almost the same thing as the 767s they used years ago. The planes they will find in the market will not be as economical, and the capacity of the plane is higher. For a 'starting' airline, maybe the 787 is the smartest choice

787 are not available now or next year or in 2013. IF this is going to happen it needs to be up and running in 2013, a year before the world cup in Rio. 767 are range challenged from GIG & GRU to northern Europe. The only plane that is available and has enough range to LHR, CDG, AMS and FRA is the 777. With the World Cup in 2014 & The Olympics in 2016 if a new "Varig" is going to fly it has 2 years to get airborne.
 
MD11Bob
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RE: Rumour : GOL To Restart Varig Inter Flts

Sun Jan 08, 2012 4:43 pm

Just to throw in this question to get a better understanding of the remainders of the Varig brand; do Varig-branded 737 still fly around for Gol? Or are they all gone?
 
C010T3
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RE: Rumour : GOL To Restart Varig Inter Flts

Sun Jan 08, 2012 4:57 pm

Quoting MD11Bob (Reply 10):
do Varig-branded 737 still fly around for Gol?

Yes, they do.
 
rg787
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RE: Rumour : GOL To Restart Varig Inter Flts

Sun Jan 08, 2012 5:14 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 9):
787 are not available now or next year or in 2013. IF this is going to happen it needs to be up and running in 2013, a year before the world cup in Rio.

Very good point, didn't think about that, but can't those gulf air birds be available sooner? When were they going to be delivered? I think the 772 is too much plane for a starter like this...
 
jfk777
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RE: Rumour : GOL To Restart Varig Inter Flts

Sun Jan 08, 2012 6:31 pm

Quoting rg787 (Reply 12):
Very good point, didn't think about that, but can't those gulf air birds be available sooner? When were they going to be delivered? I think the 772 is too much plane for a starter like this...

With all the existing airlines expanding from Europe and North America to Brazil with Emirates and Qatar starting and expanding to Rio and GRU the last thing Brazil needs is a "smaller" then 777 airplane. Emirates wants to fly the A380 and there is no place to park the whale at GRU. Brazil's airline demand is INCREASING and its airports are bursting, bigger planes is what a New Varig needs. Brazil's own airlines are short several dozen intercontinental range jets right now, even if LAN gave TAM 5 767 tomorrow that would just be the a good first step.
 
delimit
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RE: Rumour : GOL To Restart Varig Inter Flts

Sun Jan 08, 2012 6:43 pm

Have to disagree. A new entrant wants to be able to fill seats without completely trashing their yield. A smaller plane would help, not hinder; especially one with as low trip costs as a 787.

[Edited 2012-01-08 10:45:34]
 
jfk777
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RE: Rumour : GOL To Restart Varig Inter Flts

Sun Jan 08, 2012 7:09 pm

Quoting delimit (Reply 14):
Have to disagree. A new entrant wants to be able to fill seats without completely trashing their yield. A smaller plane would help, not hinder; especially one with as low trip costs as a 787.

I would agree with you if Varig could get a decent sized fleet of 787 going by 2013. But that is unlikely to happen. When you consider leasing coast and operating cost used 777 do not look so bad, sure new planes are efficient but you are taking all the depreciation.
 
klkla
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RE: Rumour : GOL To Restart Varig Inter Flts

Sun Jan 08, 2012 11:17 pm

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 5):
That's still the case, but what's the purpose? US and Brazil will have open skies by October 2015.

2015 is a long way off. There is a lot of money to be made in the meantime. It would be interesting to see if Gol will attempt to develop Varig as an international brand again that would presumably join SkyTeam at some point.
 
C010T3
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RE: Rumour : GOL To Restart Varig Inter Flts

Sun Jan 08, 2012 11:34 pm

Quoting klkla (Reply 16):
2015 is a long way off. There is a lot of money to be made in the meantime. It would be interesting to see if Gol will attempt to develop Varig as an international brand again that would presumably join SkyTeam at some point.

Well, GRU and VCP are the only airports out of reach for DL. Everything else can be done on DL metal. Unless they are looking at the Florida market, there would be no need to use Gol for that. If there was need for extra capacity on ATL-GRU, the 744 would be on it.
With the delay on the 787 program and if the rumour were true, when would we expect these 787? 2013? 2014?
 
WROORD
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RE: Rumour : GOL To Restart Varig Inter Flts

Mon Jan 09, 2012 12:51 am

I have never flown with GOL, but did with VARIG and their service was excellent even on shorter routes. Hope they come back in style.
 
Viscount724
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RE: Rumour : GOL To Restart Varig Inter Flts

Mon Jan 09, 2012 1:41 am

Quoting WROORD (Reply 18):
I have never flown with GOL, but did with VARIG and their service was excellent even on shorter routes. Hope they come back in style.

VARIG's reputation for good service deteriorated drastically as they were approaching bankruptcy, with many flights cancelled and delayed, as they were forced to ground much of their fleet when aircraft came due for maintenance and Varig couldn't afford to do the work.

In my opinion it's a mistake to resurrect an airline under the name of a defunct, bankrupt carrier. Can anyone think of a case where such a resurrected airline has survived long-term? I can't think of any. Pick a new name without any baggage from the past. And the VARIG name is basically meaningless to anyone outside Brazil. Pick a new name that has a clear association with the country.

 
C010T3
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RE: Rumour : GOL To Restart Varig Inter Flts

Mon Jan 09, 2012 2:30 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 19):
In my opinion it's a mistake to resurrect an airline under the name of a defunct, bankrupt carrier.

There is no need for resurrection. Varig, the brand, never died, just the airline.


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klkla
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RE: Rumour : GOL To Restart Varig Inter Flts

Mon Jan 09, 2012 2:50 am

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 17):
Well, GRU and VCP are the only airports out of reach for DL.

And GRU is really the only one that counts.

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 17):
With the delay on the 787 program and if the rumour were true, when would we expect these 787? 2013? 2014?

I wasn't addressing the 787 specifically. Delta bought an equity position and took a seat on the board for a reason. My guess is because they (and SkyTeam) need a partner in Brasil long term. So rumors that GOL is thinking of relaunching the Varig brand on international flights to compete with TAM is not that far-fetched.
 
Viscount724
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RE: Rumour : GOL To Restart Varig Inter Flts

Mon Jan 09, 2012 2:51 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 7):
Quoting VC10er (Reply 1):
As a VARIG lover, I would LOVE that. History has shown that once an airline brand dies it's near impossible to revive it. The multiple attempts on Pan Am is a good case in point.

I might argue that the "Swissair" branding lived on in the new "Swiss." Same font, same color palate, same tail. But in general, you are correct.

But in Switzerland, people know the difference between Swissair and SWISS and many would likely avoid flying LX if they adopted the Swissair name.

There are very bad memories of the way Swissair stranded thousands of passengers all over the world in October 2001 when they ran out of cash and couldn't pay for fuel.

Swissair also had a terrible reputation in the GVA market since they virtually abandoned GVA in the mid-1990s and moved almost all their GVA flights to ZRH and, with the exception of GVA-JFK and a very few other European routes, forced GVA passenges to connect at ZRH. While it was the right decision for Swissair as a company at the time, it was very bad for their image in the French-speaking part of Switzerland.

As a sidenote, LX paid the liquidator of Swissair something like $10 million a few years for rights to the Swissair name. At the time they said they had no intention of using the name but wanted to prevent anybody else from using it.
 
delimit
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RE: Rumour : GOL To Restart Varig Inter Flts

Mon Jan 09, 2012 2:53 am

But hasnt Gol been flying planes under the Varig brand for a while now?
 
LipeGIG
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RE: Rumour : GOL To Restart Varig Inter Flts

Mon Jan 09, 2012 3:30 am

With the agreement signed by G3 and DL, now they have all the required elements to try in a better situation:

- They have good hubs to originate and now they can allow connections.
- The market is bigger and growing as never before (US Dept of State, The Brazilian Embassy and the 3 consulates expected to issue 30% more visas this year)
- DL can provide the necessary distribution thru their hubs (specially JFK) and can even allow some connections at MIA.
- The 787 is, and we all agree, a very modern product, compared to 767's.

Lets wait and see...
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
C010T3
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RE: Rumour : GOL To Restart Varig Inter Flts

Mon Jan 09, 2012 5:28 am

Quoting klkla (Reply 21):
So rumors that GOL is thinking of relaunching the Varig brand on international flights to compete with TAM is not that far-fetched.

Yes, relaunching the brand with 787s. That's why they are important in the equation.
 
jfk777
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RE: Rumour : GOL To Restart Varig Inter Flts

Mon Jan 09, 2012 12:26 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 19):
the VARIG name is basically meaningless to anyone outside Brazil.

There is no airline name more associated with Brazil then Varig. Who the hell knows what TAM is, no offense to those folks they run a decent airline.

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 25):
Yes, relaunching the brand with 787s. That's why they are important in the equation.

Whoever started this 787 idea, where are you going to get 20 787 in the next 2 years ? Any intercontinental route from Brazil needs 2 airplanes with the overnights both ways so an airline would need 20 787 for 10 flights. Its nearly impossible to get 20 787 in the next 2 years unless you purchased say Air India's entire order.
 
winGl3t
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RE: Rumour : GOL To Restart Varig Inter Flts

Mon Jan 09, 2012 1:20 pm

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 17):

Delta will fly the 744 on ATL-GRU. It's a matter of time.
 
C010T3
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RE: Rumour : GOL To Restart Varig Inter Flts

Mon Jan 09, 2012 2:40 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 26):
Whoever started this 787 idea, where are you going to get 20 787 in the next 2 years ? Any intercontinental route from Brazil needs 2 airplanes with the overnights both ways so an airline would need 20 787 for 10 flights. Its nearly impossible to get 20 787 in the next 2 years unless you purchased say Air India's entire order.

The rumour was about 8 787, not 20. A timeline was not mentioned.

Quoting winGl3t (Reply 27):

Delta will fly the 744 on ATL-GRU. It's a matter of time.

Come back when they do.
 
rg787
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RE: Rumour : GOL To Restart Varig Inter Flts

Mon Jan 09, 2012 3:23 pm

When are the gulf air birds scheduled to be delivered? There must be a list somewhere...
 
dellatorre
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RE: Rumour : GOL To Restart Varig Inter Flts

Mon Jan 09, 2012 3:37 pm

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 20):
There is no need for resurrection. Varig, the brand, never died, just the airline.

The brand is dead! The RG of old times is long gone and won't return. GOL simply keeps some of their airplanes flying with NEW VARIG livery, but everything inside the airplanes is GOL from head to toe.

I'm not fond of the idea of reusing RG name again, but GOL has such a terrible name for the international market that it doesn't have anything better.
 
jfk777
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RE: Rumour : GOL To Restart Varig Inter Flts

Mon Jan 09, 2012 3:54 pm

Quoting Dellatorre (Reply 30):
The brand is dead! The RG of old times is long gone and won't return. GOL simply keeps some of their airplanes flying with NEW VARIG livery, but everything inside the airplanes is GOL from head to toe.

I'm not fond of the idea of reusing RG name again, but GOL has such a terrible name for the international market that it doesn't have anything better.

Then come up with a new name, " Air Brasil, Transbrasil, Rio Airways". Frankly none have the cachet of "Varig". Or SRB could provide the answer in a "Virgin Brazil", or another SAA, "South America Airways". Just an idea or two.
 
dellatorre
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RE: Rumour : GOL To Restart Varig Inter Flts

Mon Jan 09, 2012 4:26 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 31):
Frankly none have the cachet of "Varig".

It is called "not having what it takes to be inventive". The fact they wanna bring the name back using brand new dreamliners is just the tip of the iceberg. They're gonna need much more than that to be successful.
 
PAB
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RE: Rumour : GOL To Restart Varig Inter Flts

Mon Jan 09, 2012 4:31 pm

Gol has already denied the rumors published in that Brasil Economico story. There are no plans to operate 787s, whatsoever. The carrier remains focused on its regional strategy, expanding internationally only on short to medium-haul flights operated by 737-800s. The Varig brand and product are currently used on longer flights, which are currently limited to GRU-BGI, GRU-CCS, GRU-CCS-AUA and GRU-CCS-PUJ. Those planes are configured in two classes and offer hot meals.

All other planes still in Varig livery are gradually being painted as Gol.

Varig's standard economy service: http://www.viajenaviagem.com/wp-cont...oads/2010/05/voo-almocofechado.jpg
 
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IrishAyes
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RE: Rumour : GOL To Restart Varig Inter Flts

Mon Jan 09, 2012 4:41 pm

Quoting winGl3t (Reply 27):
Delta will fly the 744 on ATL-GRU. It's a matter of time.

Especially if GOL joins SkyTeam. G3 has a pretty sizable network from GRU.

Quoting Dellatorre (Reply 30):
I'm not fond of the idea of reusing RG name again, but GOL has such a terrible name for the international market that it doesn't have anything better.

Care to elaborate?
confidence is silent. insecurities are loud.
 
rg787
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RE: Rumour : GOL To Restart Varig Inter Flts

Mon Jan 09, 2012 4:43 pm

Quoting Dellatorre (Reply 30):
The brand is dead! The RG of old times is long gone and won't return.

Yes, so dead that a rumor like this is worth a thread that active. The Varig brand is not dead until people who flown them when they were good, with their 747s and stuff, are dead too. They went almost out of the market quite some years ago and I keep hearing old people talking about it like it was alive. What that brand needs, in my opinion, are some good planes configured like SQ or another world class airline. People won't accept a reincarnation that looks like a bus service (Gol, anyone?)
 
dellatorre
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RE: Rumour : GOL To Restart Varig Inter Flts

Mon Jan 09, 2012 5:49 pm

Quoting rg787 (Reply 35):
Yes, so dead that a rumor like this is worth a thread that active. The Varig brand is not dead until people who flown them when they were good, with their 747s and stuff, are dead too. They went almost out of the market quite some years ago and I keep hearing old people talking about it like it was alive. What that brand needs, in my opinion, are some good planes configured like SQ or another world class airline. People won't accept a reincarnation that looks like a bus service (Gol, anyone?)

I refuse to comment on VARIG biased fan club, or what is left of it.

[Edited 2012-01-09 09:59:56]
 
winGl3t
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RE: Rumour : GOL To Restart Varig Inter Flts

Mon Jan 09, 2012 6:26 pm

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 34):

Yep! It will happen WAY faster than the first order of 787 by Gol.
 
PPVRA
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RE: Rumour : GOL To Restart Varig Inter Flts

Mon Jan 09, 2012 6:59 pm

A couple of years ago I could have speculated about DL using the 744 to GRU, and I think I did at one point. . . but with open skies coming up, I would expect more flights to other destinations which would undercut the need for such large capacity aircraft to GRU.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
LipeGIG
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RE: Rumour : GOL To Restart Varig Inter Flts

Tue Jan 10, 2012 4:47 am

If it does not become real, would be a waste of opportunity for Gol. They have all the items on their hands !

Quoting winGl3t (Reply 27):
Delta will fly the 744 on ATL-GRU. It's a matter of time.
Quoting PPVRA (Reply 38):
A couple of years ago I could have speculated about DL using the 744 to GRU, and I think I did at one point. . . but with open skies coming up, I would expect more flights to other destinations which would undercut the need for such large capacity aircraft to GRU.

DL decided to run a multi-hub operation to GRU rather than a single large aircraft. That's why they reduce ATL-GRU from 2x daily to begin JFK-GRU and now operates also DTW-GRU.
Easy to see a 763 flying MIA-GRU on DL metal than a 744, with one exception: i do expect DL to run large aircrafts during 2014 world cup for both GIG and GRU (and any base where the USA soccer team, if qualified, plays) and again in 2016 during Rio Olympics.
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !