Norwegian737
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Plane Size On Transatlantic Flights: US Vs Europe

Mon Jan 09, 2012 12:38 pm

How come many European airlines, in general, use bigger planes on transatlantic flights than many American airlines does? For example, AA, UA, and DL use 757s on routes that European airlines use 747s, 777s, A330/A340s on. Does it has to do with frequency? Or ticket demand for a specific airline?
 
delimit
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RE: Plane Size On Transatlantic Flights: US Vs Europe

Mon Jan 09, 2012 12:44 pm

Pardon the generalization but...the US airlines are funneling pax through multiple hubs TATL whereas the European carriers fly out of a single hub.
 
UALWN
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RE: Plane Size On Transatlantic Flights: US Vs Europe

Mon Jan 09, 2012 12:55 pm

Quoting delimit (Reply 1):
the European carriers fly out of a single hub.

Not really. IAG flies TATL out of LHR, LGW, MAD and one BCN flight. AF/KL flies out of CDG, ORY and AMS. The LH group flies out of FRA, MUC, DUS, ZRH, VIE, and, soon, one BRU flight.
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skipness1E
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RE: Plane Size On Transatlantic Flights: US Vs Europe

Mon Jan 09, 2012 12:59 pm

Quoting UALWN (Reply 2):
Not really

Yes really.

BA flies out of LHR
IB flies out of MAD
IAG own both however they are most certainly not one airline. The same goes for AF / KLM and LH / LX / OS.

Hence one main hub per European airline with the exception of LH which has two along-with some secondary long haul from other cities.
 
AustrianZRH
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RE: Plane Size On Transatlantic Flights: US Vs Europe

Mon Jan 09, 2012 1:09 pm

The old airline brand vs airline ownership discussion...

What should also be considered is the equipment available. Not many European carriers have 752 in their fleet, thus they cannot use a 752 on TATL routes. If you look at the routes flown by 752 like STR-EWR or TXL-DTW, those routes couldn't sustain service on a bigger plane. After all, US airlines also bring 767, 330, 747, and 777 across the pond. Only in very rare occasions there is a route served by a EU widebody and a US narrowbody at the same time.
WARNING! The post above should be taken with a grain of salt! Furthermore, it may be slightly biased towards A.
 
Mir
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RE: Plane Size On Transatlantic Flights: US Vs Europe

Mon Jan 09, 2012 1:14 pm

Quoting delimit (Reply 1):
Pardon the generalization but...the US airlines are funneling pax through multiple hubs TATL whereas the European carriers fly out of a single hub.

That's pretty much it.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 2):
IAG flies TATL out of LHR, LGW, MAD. AF/KL flies out of CDG, ORY and AMS.

There is very little route-duplication between LHR and LGW in the long-haul market. Same for CDG and ORY. And you can't consider BA and IB to be one airline, nor can you consider AF and KL to be one airline.

-Mir
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commavia
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RE: Plane Size On Transatlantic Flights: US Vs Europe

Mon Jan 09, 2012 1:16 pm

As others have said, it's a combination of several factors.

First, U.S. airlines serve a vastly larger market than European brands, which tend to be segmented along national identity lines, and thus have a single hub (and at most two U.S.-Europe gateways) whereas the fewest hubs any major U.S. carrier has is three. Thus, funneling traffic through multiple hubs, there is less need to upgauge aircraft size for U.S carriers.

Secondly, U.S. carriers have 757s - which are really the prime aircraft for the thinner U.S.-Europe segment, whereas none of the major European network carriers do (any more). In the case of BA, Air France, KLM, Lufthansa, etc., the smallest that most of them have is a 767 or A330. That gives the U.S. carriers far more flexibility.

Finally, it's a matter of geography and stage length. For the U.S. carriers, virtually all the 757 flying to Europe (with the exception of a few AA flights out of ORD) are to/from hubs in the Northeast U.S. (JFK, EWR, IAD). The reach/range of a 757 from these hubs into Europe gives these hub airlines more flexibility to fly into smaller European markets, whereas most of the smaller, 'thinner' U.S. markets a European carrier would ideally like to use a smaller plane on are far outside the range of where a 757 could go from their respective European hubs. In other words: U.S. carriers put 757s where they couldn't otherwise fill a 767 or larger, and European carriers would do the same except that most of those U.S. markets where they would want to put a 757 are far too far away from LHR/CDG/AMS/FRA.
 
CX Flyboy
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RE: Plane Size On Transatlantic Flights: US Vs Europe

Mon Jan 09, 2012 1:43 pm

I think it is a valid question, and despite the vastness of the US market, when you look at a route in isolation, you can still ask the same question. Why for example can an airline like BA fly a 747 on one route where the US-based competiton flies something much smaller?
 
AustrianZRH
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RE: Plane Size On Transatlantic Flights: US Vs Europe

Mon Jan 09, 2012 1:44 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 6):
First, U.S. airlines serve a vastly larger market than European brands, which tend to be segmented along national identity lines

Although I agree with most of your post, I don't think this is valid (any more). Most people will fly any airline offering them the best price. I know hardly anybody who would fly LX because he's from Switzerland, or refuse to fly AF because as a "good German" he has to fly Lufthansa.

Furthermore, one has to add that the AA TATL routes fall into the AA/BA/IB cartel, and UA/CO's flights into the Atlantic PlusPlus cartel (w LH/LX/OS/LO/SN). Via those cartels, also European carriers can benefit from the US airlines' flexibility of sending 757 to thinner markets.
WARNING! The post above should be taken with a grain of salt! Furthermore, it may be slightly biased towards A.
 
shufflemoomin
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RE: Plane Size On Transatlantic Flights: US Vs Europe

Mon Jan 09, 2012 1:46 pm

Quoting AustrianZRH (Reply 4):
Only in very rare occasions there is a route served by a EU widebody and a US narrowbody at the same time.

CPH is one example since CO send a 757 while SAS send an A330.
 
jfk777
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RE: Plane Size On Transatlantic Flights: US Vs Europe

Mon Jan 09, 2012 1:48 pm

European airline do not use 757 and very 767's. The A330/340, 777, 744 and A380 are 99 % of the airplanes flown to the USA by Euro airlines.
 
commavia
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RE: Plane Size On Transatlantic Flights: US Vs Europe

Mon Jan 09, 2012 1:55 pm

Quoting AustrianZRH (Reply 8):
Although I agree with most of your post, I don't think this is valid (any more). Most people will fly any airline offering them the best price. I know hardly anybody who would fly LX because he's from Switzerland, or refuse to fly AF because as a "good German" he has to fly Lufthansa.

I was not suggesting that European carriers don't draw passengers from various markets/countries beyond/behind their hubs, but merely where the hubs themselves are placed, and how that effects the size of the planes European carriers use. Again - generally European carriers funnel all of their U.S.-bound traffic through a single hub each. As such, that hub can in many cases support larger aircraft on a per-route. You don't see European carriers splitting their traffic over multiple hubs the way AA, Delta, United, etc. do.
 
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seabosdca
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RE: Plane Size On Transatlantic Flights: US Vs Europe

Mon Jan 09, 2012 2:14 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 6):
Finally, it's a matter of geography and stage length. For the U.S. carriers, virtually all the 757 flying to Europe (with the exception of a few AA flights out of ORD) are to/from hubs in the Northeast U.S. (JFK, EWR, IAD). The reach/range of a 757 from these hubs into Europe gives these hub airlines more flexibility to fly into smaller European markets, whereas most of the smaller, 'thinner' U.S. markets a European carrier would ideally like to use a smaller plane on are far outside the range of where a 757 could go from their respective European hubs.

   We have a winner! This is the best phrasing of the correct explanation I've seen on this forum.

Western Europe is smaller than the U.S. The effect is that much of Western Europe is within 757 range of a well-placed U.S. hub (like EWR), whereas only a small bit of the U.S. is within 757 range of a well-placed European hub (like LHR). From LHR, BA would be able to fly 757s only to Northeastern markets, whereas from EWR, UA can fly 757s to all of Great Britain and Ireland; all of the Low Countries and the Iberian peninsula; all of Scandiavia; and significant chunks of France and Germany. So it makes a lot more sense for UA to maintain a TATL 757 fleet.

Quoting AustrianZRH (Reply 8):
Most people will fly any airline offering them the best price. I know hardly anybody who would fly LX because he's from Switzerland, or refuse to fly AF because as a "good German" he has to fly Lufthansa.

We've just seen an exception in the head-spinning TATL 757 thread going on right now... a Swiss guy who insists all LX aircraft are new and shiny but all U.S. carrier aircraft are held together by speed tape and prayers.

[Edited 2012-01-09 06:17:38]
 
AustrianZRH
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RE: Plane Size On Transatlantic Flights: US Vs Europe

Mon Jan 09, 2012 2:39 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 11):
I was not suggesting that European carriers don't draw passengers from various markets/countries beyond/behind their hubs, but merely where the hubs themselves are placed, and how that effects the size of the planes European carriers use.

Ah, that makes sense. Sorry for the misunderstanding!

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 12):
a Swiss guy who insists all LX aircraft are new and shiny but all U.S. carrier aircraft are held together by speed tape and prayers.

There are exceptions everywhere (and from what I got to see that perception of superiority of the own national product is more prevalent in Switzerland than anywhere else in Europe), but they are not the rule (also not in CH  ).
WARNING! The post above should be taken with a grain of salt! Furthermore, it may be slightly biased towards A.
 
UALWN
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RE: Plane Size On Transatlantic Flights: US Vs Europe

Mon Jan 09, 2012 11:23 pm

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 3):
Yes really.

Sorry, but no.

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 3):
IAG own both however they are most certainly not one airline. The same goes for AF / KLM and LH / LX / OS.

To all purposes AF and KL operate as a single airline, as LH and LX do. BA and IB will do in due time.

Quoting Mir (Reply 5):
And you can't consider BA and IB to be one airline, nor can you consider AF and KL to be one airline.

Yes, I can. Why did AF and KL merge otherwise? To operate as two separate airlines? Please.
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UAL747
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RE: Plane Size On Transatlantic Flights: US Vs Europe

Mon Jan 09, 2012 11:56 pm

Several Factors:

Single Hub Carriers with a smaller amount of take-off and landing slots to use
Congested airports in the EU and UK
Higher Population Densities in Europe/UK
Lower Population Densities in the US
US airlines cover much more ground, need more hubs
US Airlines have the luxury of focusing on Frequency
US Airlines have the luxury of operating out of Mega Airports. DFW, for example, has 7 or 8 active runways, LHR has 2? ATL and DFW are the busiest airports in the world, yet most of that is domestic traffic. Only BA, Korean, LH, and QF fly into DFW, the same for ATL I believe minus QF.
While EU/UK airports are structurally just as large, they have many more regulations and space constraints to deal with.

In many instances, Non-US airlines are subsidized or completely owned by their governments. Many routes with EU airlines are subsidized heavily. There are quite a few routes in the US that are subsidized, but more on a national level. I also think this is why you notice quite a big difference in upper level classes of travel between US airlines an non US airlines. (EK comes to mind). I don't think that airline would be what it is today if it wasn't heavily funded by the goverment of the UAE.

I also have a feeling that at the end of this decade, there will be no more 4 engined airliners in the US, unless UA or DL buys the 748 or A380, and it's been discussed to death that they won't.
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UALWN
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RE: Plane Size On Transatlantic Flights: US Vs Europe

Tue Jan 10, 2012 12:01 am

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 15):
Many routes with EU airlines are subsidized heavily.

Any examples you can provide?
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delimit
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RE: Plane Size On Transatlantic Flights: US Vs Europe

Tue Jan 10, 2012 12:13 am

Even if you consider AF/KL one airline you're talking 2 points to funnel passangers versus, say DL, who flies TATL from from 4 hubs an an additional 4 cities.

IAG from 2 hubs and 2 cities, UA from, what 4 or 5 hubs as well as 2 or 3 more cities.

The European aiines and the US airlines are structurally different.
 
cmf
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RE: Plane Size On Transatlantic Flights: US Vs Europe

Tue Jan 10, 2012 12:26 am

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 3):
Hence one main hub per European airline with the exception of LH which has two along-with some secondary long haul from other cities

SK

Quoting commavia (Reply 6):
Secondly, U.S. carriers have 757s - which are really the prime aircraft for the thinner U.S.-Europe segment

TATL 757 is a fairly recent occurrence and there was a thread a little while ago stating 767 is still the most frequent model.

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 15):
There are quite a few routes in the US that are subsidized, but more on a national level. I also think this is why you notice quite a big difference in upper level classes of travel between US airlines an non US airlines. (EK comes to mind)

You may want to stay away from EK. They are "subsidizing" the government.
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ncflyer
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RE: Plane Size On Transatlantic Flights: US Vs Europe

Tue Jan 10, 2012 12:29 am

Seems to me the push to fly 757's overseas really began by CO, they are a very well run airline (or at least they were-- who knows about the future) and to their credit they figured out that 757's could really hum on long haul flights. I'd have to assume the business they are giving up on are the low yield passengers who are the last to squeeze on. So maybe this thread is really about 1 carrier. . . . .
 
comair25
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RE: Plane Size On Transatlantic Flights: US Vs Europe

Tue Jan 10, 2012 12:36 am

Look at the size difference between the US and all of Europe. So many big cities that need to be served. US airlines seem to have come to the realization, that frequency is more important than capacity on one flight. If Europe was all one country it would work the same way obviously. For example, I don't think the country of Germany would say let BA set up a major hub at one of its airports.

[Edited 2012-01-09 16:37:55]
 
Viscount724
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RE: Plane Size On Transatlantic Flights: US Vs Europe

Tue Jan 10, 2012 12:40 am

Quoting UALWN (Reply 14):
Quoting skipness1E (Reply 3):
IAG own both however they are most certainly not one airline. The same goes for AF / KLM and LH / LX / OS.

To all purposes AF and KL operate as a single airline, as LH and LX do.

I disagree. Have you ever flown those carriers? Many aspects of their operations and service is quite different. LH and LX have completely separate managements. They certainly coordinate various aspects of their network planning and scheduling etc., but in terms of day-to-day operations they are totally separate, as are AF and KL.
 
delimit
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RE: Plane Size On Transatlantic Flights: US Vs Europe

Tue Jan 10, 2012 12:51 am

Off the top of my head...DL flies a couple I believe. PIT - CDG (if they haven't killed it yet) and Portland - NRT.
 
1stfl94
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RE: Plane Size On Transatlantic Flights: US Vs Europe

Tue Jan 10, 2012 12:55 am

There are two big reasons for this
1) Congestion at the main European hubs. The European majors are putting all their transatlantic through 1 or 2 hubs at most of which have little room for expansion compared to the US carriers who are much split across their networks and generally are operating from larger and more flexible airports.
2) Geographically the EU carriers are at a disadvantage because they can only realistically reach the US Northeast and some of the Eastern seaboard with a 757. Therefore the cost of keeping a separate and less flexible fleet outweighs the advantage of the smaller aircraft.
 
UALWN
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RE: Plane Size On Transatlantic Flights: US Vs Europe

Tue Jan 10, 2012 2:45 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 25):
Have you ever flown those carriers?

All the time. Have you?

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 25):
LH and LX have completely separate managements.

Yeah, I guess that's why the former LX's CEO is now LH's CEO.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 25):
They certainly coordinate various aspects of their network planning and scheduling etc.

They coordinate everything. For instance, LH buys the planes for LX, or actually just shuffles planes around the group. How much "closer" can you get?

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 25):
in terms of day-to-day operations they are totally separate

They are as separated as, say, Ted was from United., or Song from Delta. Did anybody consider Ted or Song as separate airlines?
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Viscount724
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RE: Plane Size On Transatlantic Flights: US Vs Europe

Tue Jan 10, 2012 3:03 am

Quoting UALWN (Reply 33):
For instance, LH buys the planes for LX, or actually just shuffles planes around the group. How much "closer" can you get?

As far as I know, LX doesn't operate any aircraft that were previously operated by LH, and vice versa.

[Edited 2012-01-09 19:08:36]
 
vv701
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RE: Plane Size On Transatlantic Flights: US Vs Europe

Tue Jan 10, 2012 3:04 am

Quoting cmf (Reply 19):
TATL 757 is a fairly recent occurrence and there was a thread a little while ago stating 767 is still the most frequent model.

Of course "fairly recent" is not a precise term. But BA were operating 752s on the thin and ultimately unsustainable - at least for them - routes betrween BHX, GLA and MAN and BOS, JFK and YYZ 17 years ago. Their first TATL 752 flights were on 3 January 1995 when they down graded these routes from 763s. And I doubt that BA were the firsrt to operate the 752 across the Atlantic on thinner routes.

It is interesting that much of the discussion in this thread has focussed on the use of 752s by American airlines and not on the use of 744s by European airlines. For example BA operates 744s between LHR and eleven US gateway airports, namely BOS, DFW , IAD, IAH, JFK, LAS, LAX, MIA, PHX, SEA and SFO. But we rarely see an American registered 744 at LHR and we have not yet seen a single order for the 380 from the USA.

However some of these BA 744s are configured to carry a maximum of only 291 passengers. This is not hugely greater than the 246 seat DL 764s or the 243 seat AA 772s operated on, for example, the JFK-LHR trunk route.

I would agree with those that say geography is often an important factor, Many of the thinner TATL services offered by American airlines are between their hubs in the northeast of the USA and some more provincial western European airports. On the other hand many of the thinner TATL services offered by European airlines are longer haul to destinations like DEN and SAN that are beyond the range of a 752 operating out of nearly every European hub.
 
Viscount724
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RE: Plane Size On Transatlantic Flights: US Vs Europe

Tue Jan 10, 2012 3:29 am

Quoting VV701 (Reply 38):
Their first TATL 752 flights were on 3 January 1995 when they down graded these routes from 763s. And I doubt that BA were the firsrt to operate the 752 across the Atlantic on thinner routes.

I believe the only scheduled service with 757s on transatlantic routes before BA was Icelandair and that was of course via KEF, not nonstop. There may have been some ad hoc charter services by one or more of the U.K. 757 charter operators before BA but I can't think of any other earlier scheduled 757 services on nonstop Europe-U.S. routes..
 
sstsomeday
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RE: Plane Size On Transatlantic Flights: US Vs Europe

Tue Jan 10, 2012 6:01 am

Quoting commavia (Reply 6):
First, U.S. airlines serve a vastly larger market than European brands, which tend to be segmented along national identity lines, and thus have a single hub (and at most two U.S.-Europe gateways) whereas the fewest hubs any major U.S. carrier has is three.

Plus American airlines compete with each other at lot of those American gateways, whereas comparatively speaking on the European side AF has little local competition in CDG, LH has little local competition in Fra and Mun, KLM in AMS, etc.
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Mir
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RE: Plane Size On Transatlantic Flights: US Vs Europe

Tue Jan 10, 2012 6:05 am

Quoting UALWN (Reply 14):
Why did AF and KL merge otherwise? To operate as two separate airlines?

Well, they do operate as two separate airlines. If you're flying through CDG, you're on AF (unless you're going to AMS). And if you're flying through AMS, you're on KL (unless you're going to CDG). One doesn't fly KL TXL-AMS and then AF AMS-LAX, for instance.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
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RE: Plane Size On Transatlantic Flights: US Vs Europe

Tue Jan 10, 2012 7:06 am

Quoting VV701 (Reply 34):
However some of these BA 744s are configured to carry a maximum of only 291 passengers. This is not hugely greater than the 246 seat DL 764s or the 243 seat AA 772s operated on, for example, the JFK-LHR trunk route.

And less than the DL A333, which seats 298 (yes, I know they don't fly it to LHR at this time, but they used to)
“Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, an
 
FlyASAGuy2005
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RE: Plane Size On Transatlantic Flights: US Vs Europe

Tue Jan 10, 2012 7:21 am

Quoting delimit (Reply 27):
Off the top of my head...DL flies a couple I believe. PIT - CDG (if they haven't killed it yet) and Portland - NRT.



PDX-NRT is always scheduled on a 763 and i've seen an occasional 330 but very rare. The 75Es/As are all out of JFK to Europe and ATL-South America. There's so much slack in the fleet now, they're doing a bunch of domestic turns out of ATL and several of the SJU flights are on PMNW 75As. The 75Js that do the interport stuff get back to the US via ferry flights. I've never seen one do a one-off 9xxx that was bookable.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 32):
They are as separated as, say, Ted was from United., or Song from Delta. Did anybody consider Ted or Song as separate airlines?



Negative. Ted/SONG/CAL Lite were brands and not separate companies, or subsidiaries. They were staffed by UA/DL/CO crews using UA/DL/CO aircraft. Saying AF/KL was like that is way off base.
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UALWN
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RE: Plane Size On Transatlantic Flights: US Vs Europe

Tue Jan 10, 2012 8:16 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 33):
As far as I know, LX doesn't operate any aircraft that were previously operated by LH, and vice versa.

I'll give you just one example: HB-IQR, an A332, was operated by LH from 2002 to 2006, then by LX from 2006 to 2009, with a short interlude in 2008 in which it was painted in LH colors again.

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 41):
They were staffed by UA/DL/CO crews using UA/DL/CO aircraft. Saying AF/KL was like that is way off base.

Yet they operated separately, providing a different experience, different branding, etc. This is what was being discussed.
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Mir
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RE: Plane Size On Transatlantic Flights: US Vs Europe

Tue Jan 10, 2012 9:40 am

Quoting UALWN (Reply 42):
Yet they operated separately, providing a different experience, different branding, etc.

Out of the same airports (unlike AF and KL). There was no Song headquarters (AF and KL have their own). Song did not have its own CEO (AF and KL do, and then there's a third CEO for the general Air France/KLM company) There was no Song pilot group - all Song pilots were Delta pilots (AF and KL don't share pilots).

They're two branches of the same company, but they're still two different airlines.

-Mir
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Burkhard
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RE: Plane Size On Transatlantic Flights: US Vs Europe

Tue Jan 10, 2012 9:56 am

Another thing to add is that time in average is more costly to Americans than Europeans, frequency and low trip times have a larger impact on decisions vs. price.
 
vegas005
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RE: Plane Size On Transatlantic Flights: US Vs Europe

Tue Jan 10, 2012 11:37 am

Quoting AustrianZRH (Reply 13):
Quoting AustrianZRH (Reply 8):
Most people will fly any airline offering them the best price. I know hardly anybody who would fly LX because he's from Switzerland, or refuse to fly AF because as a "good German" he has to fly Lufthansa.

We've just seen an exception in the head-spinning TATL 757 thread going on right now... a Swiss guy who insists all LX aircraft are new and shiny but all U.S. carrier aircraft are held together by speed tape and prayers.

Actually I am a US guy married to a German and my point was the US Airlines due to many reasons have not modernized nor maintained their fleets as well as Swiss and Lufthansa. The LH groups used airplanes fetch a much higher price on the market then their competitors due to the way in which they are maintained. The US on the other hand have flown their planes into the ground and orders for new aircraft have been very late in coming.

US Airlines fly 757's because that is what they have on hand, probably not because they want to do it. Hell, I like a 757 domestically, just don't like the cofig for 8+ hours.

As for speed tape, the last AA 767 I flew out of ZRH was covered in it outside and had a lot of duct tape inside. I especially enjoyed the 3 oxygen masks that fell out on the take off roll...classy, clean and well maintained? NOT!

But everyone has an opinion so fly what you like. Cheers.
 
UALWN
Posts: 2177
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RE: Plane Size On Transatlantic Flights: US Vs Europe

Tue Jan 10, 2012 11:43 am

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 40):
you basically want me to admit I'm wrong, in public, and are accusing me of lying.

No, sir. I don't want you to admit you're wrong (though I think you are). I complained when you wrote that you had already admitted that you were wrong, when you plainly haven't.
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cmf
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RE: Plane Size On Transatlantic Flights: US Vs Europe

Tue Jan 10, 2012 11:47 am

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 45):
Another thing to add is that time in average is more costly to Americans than Europeans, frequency and low trip times have a larger impact on decisions vs. price.

  

How do you reach this conclusion? In my opinion there is very little difference but if pushed I would state the opposite.
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
skipness1E
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RE: Plane Size On Transatlantic Flights: US Vs Europe

Tue Jan 10, 2012 11:48 am

Transatlantic B757s started in 1989. One of the first was Air 2000 which operated from the UK to BGR-MCO. 1990 saw Odyssey and Canada 3000 flying the B757 from Canada to Europe, soon joined by Air Transat and Caledonian, Britannia etc etc. BA came later in late 1995.
 
FlyASAGuy2005
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RE: Plane Size On Transatlantic Flights: US Vs Europe

Tue Jan 10, 2012 12:41 pm

Quoting UALWN (Reply 32):

Oh brother. Umm, no. Operated separately as a brand but for all legal purposes, SONG was DL in different paint. On every single a/c, it said, "Operated by Delta Air Lines". You couldn't even call it a spin-off. On all documents, it said Delta Air Lines dba SONG, LLC. KLM is not a brand. KLM is an actual independent company owned by a holding company. What you're saying is like trying to say SkyWest and ExpressJet is the same company. Two headquarters, two pilot groups, two CEOs, two everything. Delta and Comair is not the same company. More examples?...
What gets measured gets done.
 
UALWN
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RE: Plane Size On Transatlantic Flights: US Vs Europe

Tue Jan 10, 2012 1:18 pm

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 39):
Operated separately as a brand but for all legal purposes, SONG was DL in different paint.

But I don't care about the legal issues. AF and KL are two separate airlines only because of the bilateral agreements signed separately by France and Holland with third countries. That's it. Same with LH and LX or BA and IB. Otherwise, they would have merged into a single airline and we wouldn't be having this discussion.
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rheinwaldner
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RE: Plane Size On Transatlantic Flights: US Vs Europe

Tue Jan 10, 2012 1:39 pm

Quoting delimit (Reply 1):
Pardon the generalization but...the US airlines are funneling pax through multiple hubs TATL whereas the European carriers fly out of a single hub.

True, US airlines operate from multiple hubs. But there is only a rather small number of airlines and as far as this has an impact on aircraft size it is compensated in Europe because there is a much higher number of airlines. To summarize:

US: few multi-hubbed airlines
EU: many more single-hubbed airlines

In other words while in the US flights from the same airline from several hubs put pressure on the aircraft size, in Europe competing flights from even more hubs would also put aequivalent pressure on the aircraft size.

In total we can say that the number of US hubs is not larger than the number of airports, from where US bound flights in Europe depart. From feeling I would even say that there are more airports in the EU from where Europe based airlines deploy flights to the US. And still the equipment is larger on average.

I think we can say that absolute traffic volume of European airlines on TATL (US-bound) routes should be quite higher than the share of their US peers.

So, as a conclusion, the average aircraft size would be larger because European airlines attract more customers. Probably because they are better (because they probably are not cheaper).

I really don't see a factor why this conclusion should not be true.

Quoting commavia (Reply 6):
Thus, funneling traffic through multiple hubs, there is less need to upgauge aircraft size for U.S carriers.

That sounds as if a small equipement would be in the interest of an airline. As if larger equipement would be a penalty for airlines. But the opposite is true. They use the largest equipement they can afford and fill. If you operate 757's while others operate A330's and in total you sell a smaller number of seats, the market is telling you "you are sub-par".

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 12):
The effect is that much of Western Europe is within 757 range of a well-placed U.S. hub (like EWR), whereas only a small bit of the U.S. is within 757 range of a well-placed European hub (like LHR).

Just looking at the 757 is far from the whole picture. Also in all the other aequivalent relations the EU based airlines us larger aircraft. Masses of A330 instead of masses of 757 and 767. A380's, 744's, A346's and 77W's instead of 772ER (which is beside a small number of 744's the most potent US visitor in Europe).

So this size difference really can only mean one conclusion: the more modern EU based fleet, that carries a lot more seats over the Atlantic per day simply seems to be the better choice for the average customer.
 
Cipango
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RE: Plane Size On Transatlantic Flights: US Vs Europe

Tue Jan 10, 2012 2:17 pm

Quoting UALWN (Reply 16):
Any examples you can provide?

BA LHR-BWI is heavily subsidized by the Government of Maryland AFAIK.
Let's fly! Unless it's on a CRJ 200, then I'll stay down here.
 
UALWN
Posts: 2177
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RE: Plane Size On Transatlantic Flights: US Vs Europe

Tue Jan 10, 2012 7:25 pm

Quoting cipango (Reply 42):
BA LHR-BWI is heavily subsidized by the Government of Maryland AFAIK.

Yep, we went through this in a series of posts that were, unfortunately, removed by the moderators. This is the only example the poster could find, and, lo and behold, it is a US subsidy!
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FlyASAGuy2005
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RE: Plane Size On Transatlantic Flights: US Vs Europe

Tue Jan 10, 2012 7:36 pm

Quoting UALWN (Reply 40):
But I don't care about the legal issues. AF and KL are two separate airlines only because of the bilateral agreements signed separately by France and Holland with third countries. That's it. Same with LH and LX or BA and IB. Otherwise, they would have merged into a single airline and we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Right...but they're separate companies.. you didn't say that before.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 14):
To all purposes AF and KL operate as a single airline, as LH and LX do. BA and IB will do in due time.
Quoting UALWN (Reply 14):
Yes, I can. Why did AF and KL merge otherwise? To operate as two separate airlines? Please.

So which is it. didn't they know before the "merger" that they would have to operate separately?

Quoting UALWN (Reply 24):
They are as separated as, say, Ted was from United., or Song from Delta. Did anybody consider Ted or Song as separate airlines?

You may not care about the legal issues but they're still separate. It doesn't matter what they'd like to do in theory. Fact is they are two separate companies owned and operated by a holding company.
What gets measured gets done.
 
UALWN
Posts: 2177
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RE: Plane Size On Transatlantic Flights: US Vs Europe

Tue Jan 10, 2012 9:55 pm

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 44):
Fact is they are two separate companies owned and operated by a holding company.

Which for all purposes operate as one,,,

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 44):
So which is it. didn't they know before the "merger" that they would have to operate separately?

No, and they do not operate separately. Again, otherwise, what would have been the point of the mergers around LH, AF and BA?
AT7/111/146/Avro/CRJ/CR9/EMB/ERJ/E75/F50/100/L15/DC9/D10/M8X/717/727/737/747/757/767/777/787/AB6/310/32X/330/340/380
 
User avatar
airportugal310
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RE: Plane Size On Transatlantic Flights: US Vs Europe

Tue Jan 10, 2012 11:45 pm

Quoting UALWN (Reply 45):
Which for all purposes operate as one,,,

My question here is if they operate with two different boards of directors. If so, they I would consider them two different companies. If with one, then I think they could be considered one and the same.

My basis for this is because of my work situation, where its two companies with two different sets of operating rules, BUT only one BOD which makes decisions for both.

Something to ponder.
I sell airplanes and airplane accessories
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19287
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RE: Plane Size On Transatlantic Flights: US Vs Europe

Wed Jan 11, 2012 1:42 am

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 38):
Transatlantic B757s started in 1989. One of the first was Air 2000 which operated from the UK to BGR-MCO. 1990 saw Odyssey and Canada 3000 flying the B757 from Canada to Europe, soon joined by Air Transat and Caledonian, Britannia etc etc. BA came later in late 1995.

Sounds like BA had the first scheduled service with the 757 on nonstop transatlantic routes (not counting Icelandair to/from KEF). All the other carriers you mention were charter operators then.
 
Mir
Posts: 19108
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: Plane Size On Transatlantic Flights: US Vs Europe

Wed Jan 11, 2012 2:58 am

Quoting UALWN (Reply 45):
Again, otherwise, what would have been the point of the mergers around LH, AF and BA?

To make more money by having control over other airlines. Doesn't change the fact that they're still other airlines. Unless you'd also say that AF and DL are the same airline on transatlantic routes.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
FlyASAGuy2005
Posts: 3965
Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2007 4:55 am

RE: Plane Size On Transatlantic Flights: US Vs Europe

Wed Jan 11, 2012 4:08 am

Quoting UALWN (Reply 45):
Which for all purposes operate as one,,,

Okay, you can keep saying that if you want. I just turned my button on so...you can have at it  
What gets measured gets done.

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