MSN007
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Boeing 777-8X And -9X Now In The Pipe Line

Tue Jan 10, 2012 7:27 pm

Aspire Aviation reveals that Boeing has issued a request for proposal (RFP) to General Electric (GE) and Rolls-Royce (RR), with one of Aspire Aviation‘s sources saying Pratt & Whitney (P&W) is possibly included in the RFP, for a 100,000 lbs engine powering the 777-8X and -9X, the conceptual replacement aircraft for the ultra long-range 777-200LR and the highly popular 777-300ER, respectively.

Is more power the answer for fuel saving and more range?

Here is the full article.
http://www.aspireaviation.com/2012/0...tion-ramp-up/#.Twx-hU_OaYE.twitter
 
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EPA001
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RE: Boeing 777-8X And -9X Now In The Pipe Line

Tue Jan 10, 2012 7:32 pm

Quoting MSN007 (Thread starter):
Is more power the answer for fuel saving and more range?

Since the B77W presently has 115,000 lbs of thrust the trend in power is downwards. Not upwards like you seem to suggest.  . The article also suggest a downgrade in power.

But this move does not come really as a surprise, though everything else we say about the B777-8X and 777-9X is still highly speculative imho.

[Edited 2012-01-10 11:34:19]
 
MSN007
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RE: Boeing 777-8X And -9X Now In The Pipe Line

Tue Jan 10, 2012 7:36 pm

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 1):
Since the B77W presently has 115,000 lbs of thrust the trend in power is downwards. Not upwards like you seem to suggest.

I thought the 77W was in the 85,000Ibs range. I sure have it confused with may be the A380. That makes sense thanks for clarifying. One thing is sure and that is the 777 will be around for many many years to come.
 
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Stitch
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RE: Boeing 777-8X And -9X Now In The Pipe Line

Tue Jan 10, 2012 7:59 pm

I don't see Pratt on this program after the 4098. Rolls did develop the Trent 8104 demonstrator at 104,000 pounds and GE is working on the GE-9X.
 
JAAlbert
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RE: Boeing 777-8X And -9X Now In The Pipe Line

Tue Jan 10, 2012 8:12 pm

Why will the new 777 require smaller engines? Is it lighter requiring less thrust? Will it still fly the same speed of the current 777s?
 
cosmofly
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RE: Boeing 777-8X And -9X Now In The Pipe Line

Tue Jan 10, 2012 8:14 pm

The 787 production ramp still has yet to prove itself to be able to digest the backlog. The demand of the 787-9 and 787-10X, which may well be the most refined and popular models of the 787 family, will only put a lot more pressure on the supply chains. Such factors will probably bury any chance of 787-11/12 to replace the 777 families in the next 10 years.

Therefore upgrading the 777 is probably the best option to leverage production infrastructures and supply chain to counter the A350, in volume delivery availability and in efficiency. In business, time to revenue is more important than time to market.

Overall, it seems Boeing has a strong roadmap towards the 767, A33x, 777 replacement market which is BIG. It does not look like Boeing can further entertain the VLA market considering the opportunity cost and Airbus will probably own the pax VLA market even though it may not be very profitable.
 
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N14AZ
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RE: Boeing 777-8X And -9X Now In The Pipe Line

Tue Jan 10, 2012 8:19 pm

Interesting times are ahead of us. But a 777 with a smaller fan diameter? This sounds like blasphemy to me!
 
wolbo
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RE: Boeing 777-8X And -9X Now In The Pipe Line

Tue Jan 10, 2012 8:20 pm

It's still early days and we don't know too much about the 777-8X and -9X specs but it's reasonable to expect that they will be successful follow-ups to the 77W so RR must be really pleased with a chance to get on board and break GE's monopoly.

BTW, does the joint venture between RR and Pratt allow them to offer the GTF and is the GTF scaleable to this thrust level?
 
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seabosdca
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RE: Boeing 777-8X And -9X Now In The Pipe Line

Tue Jan 10, 2012 8:25 pm

I still don't understand the purpose of a 777-8. ULH (in a time of ever more expensive fuel)? A basis for an updated freighter (when the existing one has no competition as is)? Even with the improvements, I'd think an A350-1000 would club it like a baby seal in most missions. The 777-9 is the one that makes sense.

Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 4):
Why will the new 777 require smaller engines? Is it lighter requiring less thrust? Will it still fly the same speed of the current 777s?

It has a lighter MTOW and a bigger wing (which should allow it to take off and land at slower speeds).

I haven't seen any reason yet why it wouldn't cruise at the same speed as current 777s. Peak engine thrust affects takeoff performance, not optimal cruise speed, which is largely determined by aerodynamic factors.

[Edited 2012-01-10 12:27:53]
 
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SEPilot
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RE: Boeing 777-8X And -9X Now In The Pipe Line

Tue Jan 10, 2012 8:29 pm

Quoting cosmofly (Reply 5):
The 787 production ramp still has yet to prove itself to be able to digest the backlog. The demand of the 787-9 and 787-10X, which may well be the most refined and popular models of the 787 family, will only put a lot more pressure on the supply chains. Such factors will probably bury any chance of 787-11/12 to replace the 777 families in the next 10 years.

I think the 7810 will push the 787 to the practical limit of stretches. Beyond that you run into problems with length and design changes to accommodate additional weight. Having an extra seat in each row makes building a large capacity airliner much easier. The 787 can replace the 772; it will never replace the 773 or the 747.

Obviously the 777X will be lighter than the 77W; I'm amazed, though, that it will be enough lighter to reduce the required thrust by 15,000 lbs per engine. My rough calculations indicate that that means it will be approximately 100,000 lighter at MTOW; that is huge! Some of that will be fuel that will not be needed, but it still means a whopping amount of weight taken out of the airframe. More power to Boeing if they can do it; I'm eagerly awaiting more details.
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EPA001
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RE: Boeing 777-8X And -9X Now In The Pipe Line

Tue Jan 10, 2012 8:33 pm

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 9):
Obviously the 777X will be lighter than the 77W; I'm amazed, though, that it will be enough lighter to reduce the required thrust by 15,000 lbs per engine. My rough calculations indicate that that means it will be approximately 100,000 lighter at MTOW; that is huge! Some of that will be fuel that will not be needed, but it still means a whopping amount of weight taken out of the airframe. More power to Boeing if they can do it; I'm eagerly awaiting more details.

Well, it is way too early to speculate about how much weight reduction we will see on these re-revised B777-models. Ihighly doubt it will be that spectacular.

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 8):
It has a lighter MTOW and a bigger wing (which should allow it to take off and land at slower speeds).

Indeed. I am quite sure that the bigger wing is for more then 90% responsible for the lower thrust required. Though this is of course a guess.  .
 
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RE: Boeing 777-8X And -9X Now In The Pipe Line

Tue Jan 10, 2012 8:34 pm

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 9):
I'm amazed, though, that it will be enough lighter to reduce the required thrust by 15,000 lbs per engine. My rough calculations indicate that that means it will be approximately 100,000 lighter at MTOW; that is huge!

They're only planning to reduce MTOW by 22,000 lbs (from 775,000 to 753,000). The slack will be taken up by the bigger composite wing.
 
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RE: Boeing 777-8X And -9X Now In The Pipe Line

Tue Jan 10, 2012 8:42 pm

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 8):
I still don't understand the purpose of a 777-8. ULH (in a time of ever more expensive fuel)? A basis for an updated freighter (when the existing one has no competition as is)? Even with the improvements, I'd think an A350-1000 would club it like a baby seal in most missions. The 777-9 is the one that makes sense.

While I think it will have every bit as much range as the 77L, I think a 777-8 would be mainly geared toward a 77E replacement, which is what is needing to be replaced in the near future. That aircraft size is still very much in demand, and I see the re-engined, re-winged, enhanced aerodynamics resulting of such would make it very competitive with the A350-9 and the A350-10. And be able to fly 77E missions effectively and efficiently as well as ULH. Remember, just because it's a 777 doesn't mean it will be anywhere near current models in any way, until we know payload, weights, and ranges. So the assumption should be, Boeing knows what they are doing.

This is exciting, I still wish APB would develop some winglets for the 77E. I think that would be a great interim solution. They'd be like 13 feet tall! LOL.

UAL

[Edited 2012-01-10 12:44:52]
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RE: Boeing 777-8X And -9X Now In The Pipe Line

Tue Jan 10, 2012 8:50 pm

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 11):
Quoting SEPilot (Reply 9):
I'm amazed, though, that it will be enough lighter to reduce the required thrust by 15,000 lbs per engine. My rough calculations indicate that that means it will be approximately 100,000 lighter at MTOW; that is huge!

They're only planning to reduce MTOW by 22,000 lbs (from 775,000 to 753,000). The slack will be taken up by the bigger composite wing.

OK, that makes more sense. I cannot fathom that much weight being removed without severely impacting payload and/or range, which is obviously not the goal. I did not immediately realize that a larger wing would lower the thrust requirement, but on thinking about it I see that it would.
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RE: Boeing 777-8X And -9X Now In The Pipe Line

Tue Jan 10, 2012 8:57 pm

Quoting cosmofly (Reply 5):
Airbus will probably own the pax VLA market even though it may not be very profitable.

I agree the market for the A380 will be very limited, not just because of size, but because it can't carry any significant freight with PAX. The thing it has going for it right now is the low pax CASM.

However, if the 787-9x and 777x CASM go down as indicated in the article, I think these could have a lower CASMs than the A380. Since the 787/777/A350 can also carry a good load of cargo that the A380 can't, unless AB can improve the A388 pax CASM significantly, the 787/777/A350 variants will kill the A388 off, along with all other long haul aircraft offered now, including the 747-8i, IMHO.
 
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RE: Boeing 777-8X And -9X Now In The Pipe Line

Tue Jan 10, 2012 9:00 pm

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 12):
That aircraft size is still very much in demand, and I see the re-engined, re-winged, enhanced aerodynamics resulting of such would make it very competitive with the A350-9 and the A350-10.

I just don't see how even a lightened 777 can be competitive with the A350 without a passenger capacity advantage, except for extreme ULH (beyond 7500 nm) or heavy cargo hauling missions beyond the norm. It will still be substantially heavier (probably on the order of 40 t). Its engine technology will be a few years ahead of the A350's, but not far enough ahead to make up for that kind of weight differential, and it will likely have higher maintenance costs and be more expensive to produce.

The magic ingredient that makes the 777-9 work (on paper) in spite of these disadvantages is the larger passenger and cargo capacity at comparable range. The 777-8, as far as I can see, won't have any such magic.
 
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RE: Boeing 777-8X And -9X Now In The Pipe Line

Tue Jan 10, 2012 9:01 pm

Quoting tommytoyz (Reply 14):
However, if the 787-9x and 777x CASM go down as indicated in the article, I think these could have a lower CASMs than the A380

The chances of that happening are less than 0.0001% imho. Let us leave the A380 out of the discussion as this B777-8X/9X are so undefined yet. And the A388 (and possible A389) will not stand still until these re-revised B777's come along. The A380's will not be beaten in CASM till at least way in the late 2030's, that is just my just (educated) guess.  .
 
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RE: Boeing 777-8X And -9X Now In The Pipe Line

Tue Jan 10, 2012 9:03 pm

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 15):
I just don't see how even a lightened 777 can be competitive with the A350 without a passenger capacity advantage, except for extreme ULH (beyond 7500 NM) or heavy cargo hauling missions beyond the norm. It will still be substantially heavier (probably on the order of 40 t). Its engine technology will be a few years ahead of the A350's, but not far enough ahead to make up for that kind of weight differential, and it will likely have higher maintenance costs and be more expensive to produce.

The magic ingredient that makes the 777-9 work (on paper) in spite of these disadvantages is the larger passenger and cargo capacity at comparable range. The 777-8, as far as I can see, won't have any such magic.

I totally agree on this. A post with a lot of sense of reality.  .
 
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RE: Boeing 777-8X And -9X Now In The Pipe Line

Tue Jan 10, 2012 9:25 pm

Quoting tommytoyz (Reply 14):
Since the 787/777/A350 can also carry a good load of cargo that the A380 can't, unless AB can improve the A388 pax CASM significantly, the 787/777/A350 variants will kill the A388 off, along with all other long haul aircraft offered now, including the 747-8i, IMHO.

All the A380 would need would be A350 engines, and, voila, the CASM king again. Increasing size is the easiest and fastest way to improve CASM, and the A380 will have no size competition for a long, long time.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
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RE: Boeing 777-8X And -9X Now In The Pipe Line

Tue Jan 10, 2012 10:06 pm

It's quite helpful for RR that the latest version of the A350-1000 required them to invest in an enlarged 97k version of the T-XWB as they're now the only manufacturer with a launched new engine around the 100k mark. Assuming GE will have to launch an engine for this plane, will Boeing choose 2 engine suppliers? Could GE then power the A350 after all?
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flyingcello
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RE: Boeing 777-8X And -9X Now In The Pipe Line

Tue Jan 10, 2012 10:14 pm

I thought GE had exclusivity on all 777s over a certain weight (may have been 700klbs or 750klbs)...maybe that exclusivity clause actually dies with the 200LR / 300ER.
 
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RE: Boeing 777-8X And -9X Now In The Pipe Line

Tue Jan 10, 2012 10:50 pm

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 16):
The A380's will not be beaten in CASM till at least way in the late 2030's, that is just my just (educated) guess. .

Even if true, the 757 TATL experience shows that route fragmentation makes sense even with higher CASM smaller planes. As the smaller aircraft approach the CASM of the larger ones, it makes even more sense. Thus, IMHO, fragmentation will only increase as these newer smaller planes come online.

If you add up the "Total Route CASM" for certain pax traveling certain routes, not just the hub to hub CASM portions, the smaller planes can sometimes be more efficient in many circumstances, I suspect.

I think the proof is in the order numbers. How many 787/A350/777/767/A330 have been ordered for long haul use compared to the 747-8i and A380 over the same period, say past 5 years? No contest.

In addition, ignoring the freight revenue potential of different and smaller aircraft, like we often do here on A.net, is very misleading. Operators may be able t haul freight point to point on thin routes more economically with small planes that they would otherwise routing freight through freight hubs. I think this is especially true of smaller operators who don't even have a freight hub. Unlike passengers, freight does not move by itself on the ground and between planes.

Bottom line is the smaller long haul planes will dominate long haul. The 767 opened the door long ago, and there has been no looking back since. The newer more capable and efficient smaller planes will only accelerate this trend. IMHO.
 
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RE: Boeing 777-8X And -9X Now In The Pipe Line

Tue Jan 10, 2012 11:32 pm

Quoting MSN007 (Thread starter):
777-8X and -9X,

Why is it the trend to jump directly from -200 or -300 models to the -800 all of a sudden or even more so with a brand new aircraft automatically starting at -8 (A380, 787, etc?) Whatever happened to the 777-4/5/6/7?
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Rbgso
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RE: Boeing 777-8X And -9X Now In The Pipe Line

Tue Jan 10, 2012 11:43 pm

Quoting FRAspotter (Reply 22):
Why is it the trend to jump directly from -200 or -300 models to the -800 all of a sudden or even more so with a brand new aircraft automatically starting at -8 (A380, 787, etc?) Whatever happened to the 777-4/5/6/7?

A good question, although I guess the 787-3 did exist for a couple year on paper.
 
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Stitch
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RE: Boeing 777-8X And -9X Now In The Pipe Line

Wed Jan 11, 2012 12:31 am

Quoting FRAspotter (Reply 22):
Whatever happened to the 777-4/5/6/7?

I expect Boeing is trying to tie the various families together:

737-7 / 737-8 / 737-9
747-8
777-8 / 777-9
787-8 / 787-9
 
timpdx
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RE: Boeing 777-8X And -9X Now In The Pipe Line

Wed Jan 11, 2012 12:38 am

747-8 was supposedly done because in Asian (Chinese) numerology, 8 is magical. 4 is a bad number. You see buildings in china with no 4th floor or even buildings with out floors 40-49, they just skip to 50, 51, ect.
 
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Stitch
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RE: Boeing 777-8X And -9X Now In The Pipe Line

Wed Jan 11, 2012 12:40 am

Quoting timpdx (Reply 25):
747-8 was supposedly done because in Asian (Chinese) numerology, 8 is magical. 4 is a bad number.

It's often been said this is why Boeing (and Airbus) chose the numbering they did for the 747-8 and A380-800, but let us not forget the 747 - and especially the 747-400 - was mighty popular with Asian carriers and Asian passengers.
 
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RE: Boeing 777-8X And -9X Now In The Pipe Line

Wed Jan 11, 2012 12:48 am

Quoting tommytoyz (Reply 21):
I think the proof is in the order numbers. How many 787/A350/777/767/A330 have been ordered for long haul use compared to the 747-8i and A380 over the same period, say past 5 years? No contest.

But if the A388 numbers start getting chewed on by the twins, you'll see an A389. It's not going anywhere on lots of routes.
 
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RE: Boeing 777-8X And -9X Now In The Pipe Line

Wed Jan 11, 2012 1:02 am

I hope Boeing, increase the T-7 speed with the 777-8X and 9X, because both the 747-8I and 787 cruises at .85 mach at the least. The same is true for the A380 and A350, so a new 777 would needs to speed up .01 mach. The 777-8X and 9X have the potential to be a great twin-jet, but Boeing is going to have to bring it, and make the new 777s much better, which will be hard, because the 777 is already one heck of a jet.
 
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RE: Boeing 777-8X And -9X Now In The Pipe Line

Wed Jan 11, 2012 1:27 am

Quoting 747400sp (Reply 28):
so a new 777 would needs to speed up .01 mach

Bragging rights... that will get you 5 minutes on a TATL flight and 10 on a TPAC flight, at most.

Much better to keep the current speed and go for maximum fuel efficiency. They need every little bit they can get to be competitive against the A350.
 
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RE: Boeing 777-8X And -9X Now In The Pipe Line

Wed Jan 11, 2012 2:36 am

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 29):
Quoting 747400sp (Reply 28):so a new 777 would needs to speed up .01 machBragging rights... that will get you 5 minutes on a TATL flight and 10 on a TPAC flight, at most.

It wasn't speed that killed the A340, but fuel efficiency of a twin. And even the A330, which is quite a bit slower than the 777 (more so than the 777 vs 747/A350/A380/787) is still selling well, and that is because of fuel efficiency not speed.

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RE: Boeing 777-8X And -9X Now In The Pipe Line

Wed Jan 11, 2012 2:41 am

I heard on this site that the 778X was going to be slightly longer than the 772 family and the 779X was going to be slightly longer than the 773 family.

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 29):
Much better to keep the current speed and go for maximum fuel efficiency.

Im sure Boeing would at least have some aerodynamic improvements to the new 777 so even a .01 mach increase in speed shouldn't have any effect on efficiency, especially since they are going to GE and RR for new engines. Just my   
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RE: Boeing 777-8X And -9X Now In The Pipe Line

Wed Jan 11, 2012 3:45 am

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 8):
I still don't understand the purpose of a 777-8. ULH (in a time of ever more expensive fuel)? A basis for an updated freighter (when the existing one has no competition as is)? Even with the improvements, I'd think an A350-1000 would club it like a baby seal in most missions. The 777-9 is the one that makes sense.

I would imagine that the 777-8X would be the 77L/77F replacement. I don't think having a 777-8X as well as a 777-9X is going to cost Boeing that much more to develop over doing the 777-9X alone. Even if the 777-8X doesn't sell in great numbers, the 777-8F has the potential to sell enough to make the whole 777-8X project worthwhile, given how well the current 777F is selling.

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 15):
I just don't see how even a lightened 777 can be competitive with the A350 without a passenger capacity advantage, except for extreme ULH (beyond 7500 nm) or heavy cargo hauling missions beyond the norm. It will still be substantially heavier (probably on the order of 40 t). Its engine technology will be a few years ahead of the A350's, but not far enough ahead to make up for that kind of weight differential, and it will likely have higher maintenance costs and be more expensive to produce.

The magic ingredient that makes the 777-9 work (on paper) in spite of these disadvantages is the larger passenger and cargo capacity at comparable range. The 777-8, as far as I can see, won't have any such magic.

A lot of this will depend on how much weight Boeing can take off the 777, doesn't it? If they can reduce the weight and SFC differential between it and the A350 to the point where it can be made up for by having better payload/range capabilities, I don't see a reason why the 777X can't compete.
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RE: Boeing 777-8X And -9X Now In The Pipe Line

Wed Jan 11, 2012 3:46 am

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 12):
This is exciting, I still wish APB would develop some winglets for the 77E. I think that would be a great interim solution. They'd be like 13 feet tall! LOL.

I am surprised nobody picked up on this. Maybe I hang too much in Tech/ops  

777 has raked wingtips already, The fact, that they are included on Poseidon variant of 737 vs. winglets on pax versions, indicates, that other than gate space constraints (737NGs JUST make it into a 36m category IIRC), raked wingtip is at least as efficient as winglet, if not more.
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RE: Boeing 777-8X And -9X Now In The Pipe Line

Wed Jan 11, 2012 3:54 am

As for the engine, Boeing and GE have historically had a pretty strong relationship, so I'd expect GE will get this one. The only Boeing commercial aircraft program that RR was the exclusive supplier was the 717, which in fact was originally designed by McDonnell Douglas as the MD-95, and the 717 program ultimately flopped.

Also, I'd expect that the 777X will get a 787-style interior.
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RE: Boeing 777-8X And -9X Now In The Pipe Line

Wed Jan 11, 2012 3:57 am

Quoting Fabo (Reply 33):
777 has raked wingtips already,

Only the 200LR and 300ER. The 77E and the original 200 and 300 have no winglets.
 
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RE: Boeing 777-8X And -9X Now In The Pipe Line

Wed Jan 11, 2012 4:11 am

Quoting MSN007 (Thread starter):
Is more power the answer for fuel saving and more range?

It will be less power.

Quoting cosmofly (Reply 5):
Therefore upgrading the 777 is probably the best option to leverage production infrastructures and supply chain to counter the A350, in volume delivery availability and in efficiency.

The problem is that the only A350 the upgraded 777s will be able to counter is the -1000, and even then it won't work for nearly every airline out there. The 787-9 will be very strong against the -800 and probably do nicely against the -900 as well, but the 777-8/-9 aren't going to be big winners against any A350 since they will be that much bigger. It will work for some airlines, but moves it out of the market for others. Boeing demonstrated pretty well with the 77W that they found the sweet spot in capacity, and now they are looking at moving off of that.

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 8):
I'd think an A350-1000 would club it like a baby seal in most missions.

It should.

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 8):
The 777-9 is the one that makes sense.

For airlines that can fill the seats.

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 15):
I just don't see how even a lightened 777 can be competitive with the A350 without a passenger capacity advantage,

It can't. The 777-9 would be a considerably more popular analogue to the 747-8, but in many cases not competitive with the A350. Boeing should go with a clean sheet design here. The 777 is going to keep selling well for most of the rest of this decade anyway, and maybe even longer.

It leaves a big question of what Boeing will actually end up doing development-wise. They aren't making huge upgrades to the 737, they would only be making the 777-8/-9, and not adding to the 787 line so where would the development capacity go? Or would they just go into their shell and do things on the cheap after the 787 issues?
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RE: Boeing 777-8X And -9X Now In The Pipe Line

Wed Jan 11, 2012 4:12 am

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 34):
As for the engine, Boeing and GE have historically had a pretty strong relationship, so I'd expect GE will get this one.

Well there's a surprise...  

Actually, Boeing and PW have had the much stronger relationship "historically". It is only in quite recent times that GE have displaced them.

For example, GE have never powered the first flight of an all-new plane.

707 : PW
727 : PW
737 : PW
747 : PW
757 : RR
767 : PW
777 : PW
787 : RR

Anyway, might Boeing go for a choice of engines on the next 777? Just a thought.
 
tdscanuck
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RE: Boeing 777-8X And -9X Now In The Pipe Line

Wed Jan 11, 2012 4:14 am

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 31):
Im sure Boeing would at least have some aerodynamic improvements to the new 777 so even a .01 mach increase in speed shouldn't have any effect on efficiency

A 0.01 Mach increase causes about a 2% drag hit. Aerodynamic improvements don't matter...if you fly faster with the same aircraft you burn more gas. They could use those same improvements to provide equal cruise speed and a meaningfully better fuel burn.

Tom.
 
nz2
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RE: Boeing 777-8X And -9X Now In The Pipe Line

Wed Jan 11, 2012 4:20 am

Could someone post the specs of the 350 v 777, in particular the width as i seemed to recall that although Airbis called the 350 the XWB to differentiate it from the original 350 (really just an A330 in drag) the XWB was still not as wide as the 777.

Cheers
 
PlanesNTrains
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RE: Boeing 777-8X And -9X Now In The Pipe Line

Wed Jan 11, 2012 5:29 am

Quoting cosmofly (Reply 5):
and Airbus will probably own the pax VLA market even though it may not be very profitable.

With little competition, it would seem to only get more profitable over time, imho.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 36):
Boeing should go with a clean sheet design here.

Where have we heard that before?  

-Dave
-Dave
 
dank
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RE: Boeing 777-8X And -9X Now In The Pipe Line

Wed Jan 11, 2012 5:42 am

Quoting tommytoyz (Reply 21):
Even if true, the 757 TATL experience shows that route fragmentation makes sense even with higher CASM smaller planes. As the smaller aircraft approach the CASM of the larger ones, it makes even more sense. Thus, IMHO, fragmentation will only increase as these newer smaller planes come online.

I'd argue that the 757 on TATL routes was a solution looking for a problem rather than the other way around. With 737s and 320s able to do almost all the transcons, airlines looked for a place to maximize their use. If they were so desirable, they would have bought more; they didn't. Now if you could get a 757 sized plane with seat costs of a 333 or 772 to do transatlantic flights you might see some more. The 787 certainly hasn't been hurt in sales by the fact that instead of selling a 757/767 replacement with similar seating at lower trip costs, but rather a more capable plane at similar costs. Doesn't exactly help the argument, either.
 
sparky35805
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RE: Boeing 777-8X And -9X Now In The Pipe Line

Wed Jan 11, 2012 5:57 am

Boeing,Pratt,Hamilton Standard,and United Airlines were at one time under the same corporate umbrella.
 
boilerla
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RE: Boeing 777-8X And -9X Now In The Pipe Line

Wed Jan 11, 2012 7:03 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 36):
'd think an A350-1000 would club it like a baby seal in most missions.

It should.

Except some are skeptical about the A35J still, including EK and QR. It's still 5 years away from EIS and has yet to have final config freeze, so a lot can change. It's already gone through one major spec change.

This move is basically about costs. EK's $25 billion in 777s probably earned them a close ear on what they want to see, and what's the biggest cost-effective replacement for the 777s they'll be replacing next decade. A clean sheet would have cost Boeing billions, for a program that may not have a lot of replacements coming up in the next 15 years--as you say, it'll sell until the end of the decade at least, so why spend a lot on a clean sheet design? A 777NG will keep the 777 cost-neutral, if not cheaper, than the A350 without Boeing having to discount it severely.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 36):
It leaves a big question of what Boeing will actually end up doing development-wise. They aren't making huge upgrades to the 737, they would only be making the 777-8/-9, and not adding to the 787 line so where would the development capacity go? Or would they just go into their shell and do things on the cheap after the 787 issues?

Boeing still has a lot going on:
789
787-10X (probably)
737MAX
777NG

I'd say that's quite enough until 2014-2015, when all of those designs should be frozen. Then they can start looking at the next big thing.
 
CXB77L
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RE: Boeing 777-8X And -9X Now In The Pipe Line

Wed Jan 11, 2012 7:21 am

Quoting NZ2 (Reply 39):
Could someone post the specs of the 350 v 777, in particular the width as i seemed to recall that although Airbis called the 350 the XWB to differentiate it from the original 350 (really just an A330 in drag) the XWB was still not as wide as the 777.
Fuselage width:
Airbus A350: 5.96 metres
Boeing 777: 6.20 metres

Cabin width:
Airbus A350: 5.61 metres
Boeing 777: 5.89 metres

28cm difference in the cabin, which should equate to about 3cm advantage per seat assuming aisle widths are the same and both configured in a 9-across configuration.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 36):

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 8):I'd think an A350-1000 would club it like a baby seal in most missions.
It should.

I think it is also far too early to suggest that the 777X cannot compete. It's probably 6 or 7 years away from EIS and have yet to undergo a design freeze. Perhaps what I see as optimism for the 777 might be interpreted as scepticism for the A350, but conversely, to suggest that the A350 should 'club it like a baby seal' (as some here have suggested) is, in my opinion, a gross underestimation of Boeing and the 777.

[Edited 2012-01-10 23:26:37]
Boeing 777 fanboy
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Boeing 777-8X And -9X Now In The Pipe Line

Wed Jan 11, 2012 7:24 am

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 17):
and it will likely have higher maintenance costs and be more expensive to produce.

Why? Newer models tend to require less maintenance than older ones and the entire fuselage can be made on the same tooling that Boeing currently uses.
-Doc Lightning-

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Burkhard
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RE: Boeing 777-8X And -9X Now In The Pipe Line

Wed Jan 11, 2012 7:29 am

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 8):
I still don't understand the purpose of a 777-8. ULH (in a time of ever more expensive fuel)? A basis for an updated freighter (when the existing one has no competition as is)? Even with the improvements, I'd think an A350-1000 would club it like a baby seal in most missions. The 777-9 is the one that makes sense.

If Boeing does here what they did with the 77W/77L and Airbus made with 332/333 and 358/359, to keep the differences really minimal and just put the weight savings of the shorter jet into range, then it really only needs a handful of aircraft to sell to get the costs back. And it make maintenance of a tiny sub fleet affordable, so for an airline with 20 779 to have 4 778 to reach Australia non stop from Atlanta :lol: makes sense. There is a business case for the 778 even without thinking of the 778F.

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 31):
Im sure Boeing would at least have some aerodynamic improvements to the new 777 so even a .01 mach increase in speed shouldn't have any effect on efficiency

.01 mach more means 2% more fuel burn per mile. To be more competitive, Boeing better slightly reduces the speed.

With 789,78-10, 777NNG and 737MAX is see Boeings design capacities filled until 2020. Clean sheets may have to wait a decade or longer.

One consequence I see if they make the 778 is that the 78A will be more oriented to mid-range, so more a simple stretch of the 789, and not aim for very long range, to spread the offer.
 
alangirvan
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RE: Boeing 777-8X And -9X Now In The Pipe Line

Wed Jan 11, 2012 7:33 am

The idea is that the long 777 NG will have the range of the short body 777-200LR, with the better seat mile costs. EK have been "misusing" the 777-300ER on DXB-SFO, where they prefer that aircraft with a slight penalty over the 777-200LR. The -9X would be intended to give them no penalty on sector like that and LAX. Also, sectors like Dubai to Australian East Coast, where the -9X would be an advantage. Also, the 9X would be an attractive aircraft for CX services to New York.

So, you will use the 777NG for extreme range. If you do not need the range, the A350-1000 will be fine.
 
astuteman
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RE: Boeing 777-8X And -9X Now In The Pipe Line

Wed Jan 11, 2012 7:35 am

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 13):

OK, that makes more sense. I cannot fathom that much weight being removed without severely impacting payload and/or range, which is obviously not the goal

10% off fuel burn (just for engines alone) saves you about 14-15 tonnes on a long sector vs the 773ER.
Add in the drag reduction from the new wings, a drag reduction from the lower take-off weights generally, and a little off the OEW, and the MTOW reduction starts to make sense.

IMO Boeing will look to match the range-payload capabilities of the current plane as a minimum

Quoting tommytoyz (Reply 14):
unless AB can improve the A388 pax CASM significantly, the 787/777/A350 variants will kill the A388 off, along with all other long haul aircraft offered now, including the 747-8i, IMHO.

No they won't. The A350-1000 won't match the CASM of the current A380 unless it is configured at 10-across in Y

And for what it's worth, Airbus could, if they wanted, produce an A380 with roughly 20% better CASM than the current plane, even without resorting to a re-engining.
It would be a lot bigger of course  
Add in new engines as well........

The A380 is going to be around for a VERY long time   

Quoting tommytoyz (Reply 21):
I think the proof is in the order numbers. How many 787/A350/777/767/A330 have been ordered for long haul use compared to the 747-8i and A380 over the same period, say past 5 years? No contest.

Statements like this are meaningless without context, tommytoyz.

In the last 4 years, the A380 has absolutely BURIED the 787 sales (64 net vs 33 net).
That SURELY means the 787's days are numbered the, doesn't it?   

Obviously it doesn't. The 787 has had its own special problems which have unquestionably affected sales.
But by the same token, it's not possible to draw any conclusions from 748i sales and A380 sales over the last 5 years - both have experienced similar problems.

The planes that have sold like hot cakes over the last 5 years are, guess what the good "old" A330 and 777.
There should be a lesson in there that we should recognise.
Sadly.....

Rgds
 
BlueSky1976
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RE: Boeing 777-8X And -9X Now In The Pipe Line

Wed Jan 11, 2012 8:33 am

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 8):
I still don't understand the purpose of a 777-8.
Quoting CXB77L (Reply 32):
I would imagine that the 777-8X would be the 77L/77F replacement.

Press releases from 2011 Paris Air Show would give you pretty good idea what the 777-8X would be. Generally, the 777-9X would be slightly stretched 777-300ER, and 777-8X would be a shrink of the -9X. While smaller than -300ER, it will be larger than 777-200ER/LR/F. My guess is that Boeing is trying to position -8X right at the A350-1000 passenger capacity to kill it with greater payload and range, while lighter and larger -9X would serve as a direct replacement for all remaining 747-400s and older 777-300ERs, to use Boeing's own PR mantra.
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