SA7700
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Not A Good Week For Westbound Tatl 757's Part 2

Thu Jan 12, 2012 7:53 pm

This is a continuation thread of part 1 which can be found here: Not A Good Week For Westbound TATL 757's Part 1

Please feel free to rejoin the discussion in this thread. Enjoy the forums!  


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SA7700
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G500
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RE: Not A Good Week For Westbound Tatl 757's Part 2

Thu Jan 12, 2012 8:22 pm

a major U.S newspaper has ran two articles on continental-United's 757 troubles

yesterday "Continental-United's 757 non-stop flights to Europe are now 1-stop"

and today they had an article about how the arline has considered adding an extra tank (on the belly of the 757), but nothing came of that.
 
tommy767
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RE: Not A Good Week For Westbound Tatl 757's Part 2

Thu Jan 12, 2012 8:47 pm

Quoting g500 (Reply 1):
yesterday "Continental-United's 757 non-stop flights to Europe are now 1-stop"

and today they had an article about how the arline has considered adding an extra tank (on the belly of the 757), but nothing came of that.

Not sure how that works -- adding an extra tank to a 757. Has there been any carrier who has completed a mod for that?

Not sure if CO was the carrier who would have been interested in that. They declined to take aux tanks in their 739ERs.
"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
 
G500
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RE: Not A Good Week For Westbound Tatl 757's Part 2

Thu Jan 12, 2012 8:56 pm

Quoting TOMMY767 (Reply 2):
Not sure how that works -- adding an extra tank to a 757. Has there been any carrier who has completed a mod for that?

Gordon Bethune toyed around with that idea first, not sure what Boeing and the FAA though about the idea.

very interesting article, google it...
 
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seabosdca
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RE: Not A Good Week For Westbound Tatl 757's Part 2

Thu Jan 12, 2012 9:18 pm

Quoting TOMMY767 (Reply 2):
Not sure how that works -- adding an extra tank to a 757. Has there been any carrier who has completed a mod for that?

The USAF C-32s have them, at the aft end of the forward hold.

The challenges for normal pax service are that they add weight and take away cargo volume that is necessary in airline configuration.

CO looked at installing them at one point, but decided against it.

The extra weight of an aux tank can make a difference. On its A320s, B6 originally specified an aux tank, but then removed it because the extra weight was hurting range more than the extra fuel capacity was helping it.
 
N62NA
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RE: Not A Good Week For Westbound Tatl 757's Part 2

Thu Jan 12, 2012 9:24 pm

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 4):
the extra weight was hurting range more than the extra fuel capacity was helping it.

Yeah, I would think it would be a no-go on UA (CO) 757s.
 
BMI727
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RE: Not A Good Week For Westbound Tatl 757's Part 2

Thu Jan 12, 2012 9:24 pm

Quoting g500 (Reply 1):
and today they had an article about how the arline has considered adding an extra tank (on the belly of the 757), but nothing came of that

Of course nothing came of it because it is a waste of weight, space and money for the routes they currently fly.   

Quoting TOMMY767 (Reply 2):
Not sure how that works -- adding an extra tank to a 757. Has there been any carrier who has completed a mod for that?

I recall seeing an executive configured 757 that said it had an aux tank.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
 
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seabosdca
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RE: Not A Good Week For Westbound Tatl 757's Part 2

Thu Jan 12, 2012 10:28 pm

Quoting N62NA (Reply 7):
Here's some of the news coverage over the past few days:

  

Of course, every single one of these articles presents the use of 757s as a boneheaded UA move to pinch pennies, not a way to expand service to cities and/or times where it might not otherwise be offered.
 
Mir
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RE: Not A Good Week For Westbound Tatl 757's Part 2

Thu Jan 12, 2012 10:43 pm

Quoting N62NA (Reply 7):
Here's some of the news coverage over the past few days:

Much of it making it seem as if UA doesn't care.  

Because the flights definitely weren't loaded into the schedule months ago, leaving no possibility of changing the aircraft type, and UA definitely didn't make sure that the flights could go nonstop with average winter winds, right?

What's UA supposed to do, commune with the weather to get it to cut the headwinds down?   

-Mir
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tommy767
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RE: Not A Good Week For Westbound Tatl 757's Part 2

Thu Jan 12, 2012 10:51 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 9):

What's UA supposed to do, commune with the weather to get it to cut the headwinds down?

Use larger aircraft that won't cause for diversions.....?

Amazing how many news stories are being printed up regarding this issue.
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seabosdca
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RE: Not A Good Week For Westbound Tatl 757's Part 2

Thu Jan 12, 2012 10:57 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 6):
  
Quoting seabosdca (Reply 8):
  
Quoting Mir (Reply 9):
  

I think perhaps this topic has gotten a bit frustrating to some of us. 
Quoting TOMMY767 (Reply 10):
Use larger aircraft that won't cause for diversions.....?

Do you think they have some sort of moral responsibility to do this (or, realistically, to cancel flights, since they don't just have extra WBs sitting around), even if it would lose more money and/or cause more passenger inconvenience (in the case of canceled flights) than the fuel stop?
 
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RE: Not A Good Week For Westbound Tatl 757's Part 2

Thu Jan 12, 2012 10:59 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 9):
What's UA supposed to do, commune with the weather to get it to cut the headwinds down?

Mir,

This has been brewing long before the "winds of the century" became the excuse. The CO 757's have been diverting on the IAD service since the beginning of service last summer. The 757's can't make it to IAD with alternate fuel if the ceilings are low. They can't make IAD if there is a forecast for TStorms or ATC reroutes. These are year round events and UA has buried its head in the sand hoping this issue would go away. So now they have cooked up the lame wind excuse for their poor planning and research. These people should be removed from their duties for bungling the decision to put 757's beyond their range.

I don't know how much these guys need to see to realize their mistakes. I suspect they would never acknowledge their errors. They are earning those bonuses!  
 
N62NA
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RE: Not A Good Week For Westbound Tatl 757's Part 2

Thu Jan 12, 2012 11:10 pm

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 11):
Do you think they have some sort of moral responsibility to do this (or, realistically, to cancel flights, since they don't just have extra WBs sitting around), even if it would lose more money and/or cause more passenger inconvenience (in the case of canceled flights) than the fuel stop?

I think it should be disclosed at the time of booking - just prior to pressing the "Pay" button - that x% of the time the flight needs to divert for fuel.
 
aloges
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RE: Not A Good Week For Westbound Tatl 757's Part 2

Thu Jan 12, 2012 11:11 pm

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 8):
Of course, every single one of these articles presents the use of 757s as a boneheaded UA move to pinch pennies, not a way to expand service to cities and/or times where it might not otherwise be offered.

For those who understand German, here's another example of that kind of "journalism":
http://www.spiegel.de/reise/aktuell/0,1518,808844,00.html

It starts with a supposed quote saying "Sorry, we're out of fuel", speaks of "emergency landings" and features a render of a UA 787 to illustrate the story.  

Quoting N62NA (Reply 13):
I think it should be disclosed at the time of booking - just prior to pressing the "Pay" button - that x% of the time the flight needs to divert for fuel.

What good would that be? If your business trip is booked through an agent, you won't see that warning. Additionally, should the number be calculated from last month's numbers, from last year's or over the entire time tha flight has been operated? Should there be additional advice on the importance of headwinds?

[Edited 2012-01-12 15:14:32]
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nycdave
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RE: Not A Good Week For Westbound Tatl 757's Part 2

Thu Jan 12, 2012 11:14 pm

Quoting mcdu (Reply 12):
This has been brewing long before the "winds of the century" became the excuse. The CO 757's have been diverting on the IAD service since the beginning of service last summer.

We're aware of that issue, but THIS thread sprang up in response to EWR flights requiring a stop. The IAD 757 service is relatively new, and it remains to be seen what UA might do in response to the frequent diversions. 757 service from EWR has been going on for around nearly a decade, and the recent spate of diversions IS a dramatic aberration from the norm. As other posters pointed out on a previous thread, even some WB planes have had to make stops. Let's not conflate and combine our 757 issues  
 
tommy767
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RE: Not A Good Week For Westbound Tatl 757's Part 2

Thu Jan 12, 2012 11:15 pm

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 11):

Do you think they have some sort of moral responsibility to do this (or, realistically, to cancel flights, since they don't just have extra WBs sitting around), even if it would lose more money and/or cause more passenger inconvenience (in the case of canceled flights) than the fuel stop?

They actually do. The 762s are poorly utilized, the 763s operate some domestic routes (likely coming to EWR/IAD once reconfigured) and the 787s will be coming online later this year. If they don't have 'slack' now, they will be getting slack as early as later this year. IMHO, I think they are focused on other things regarding the merger and cross fleeting is taking a back seat at the moment. Had they planned a little better, this might not be as blown out of proportion as it currently is -- so far blown that the media is taking a stab at it.

N62NA posted a ton of articles and UA is not going to want to get a negative image out of this. The media isn't bashing DL, AA, or US -- just UNITED. Therefore, UA is going to have to take some responsibility for the ridiculous number of diversions over the last month.

Quoting mcdu (Reply 12):

Year round EWR can never get their act together with delays and IAD is just too far for the 757. For quite a few of these Euro destinations, the 757 is out of reach. Again, as said before not British Isles to EWR, but longer routings. UA needs to take some responsibility for this.
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Mir
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RE: Not A Good Week For Westbound Tatl 757's Part 2

Thu Jan 12, 2012 11:17 pm

Quoting TOMMY767 (Reply 10):
Use larger aircraft that won't cause for diversions.....?

Which are, of course, just hanging around, waiting to be used?

Quoting N62NA (Reply 13):
I think it should be disclosed at the time of booking - just prior to pressing the "Pay" button - that x% of the time the flight needs to divert for fuel.

We've already got the on-time statistics for that.

-Mir
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BMI727
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RE: Not A Good Week For Westbound Tatl 757's Part 2

Thu Jan 12, 2012 11:21 pm

Quoting N62NA (Reply 13):
I think it should be disclosed at the time of booking - just prior to pressing the "Pay" button - that x% of the time the flight needs to divert for fuel.

Flights already have on-time statistics. And it makes no difference if the delay is sitting at the gate, stopping for fuel, or holding at the destination. A delay is a delay.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
N62NA
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RE: Not A Good Week For Westbound Tatl 757's Part 2

Thu Jan 12, 2012 11:39 pm

Quoting aloges (Reply 14):

What good would that be? If your business trip is booked through an agent, you won't see that warning.

It's up to your agent to relay that information to you (the customer).

Quoting aloges (Reply 14):
Additionally, should the number be calculated from last month's numbers, from last year's or over the entire time tha flight has been operated? Should there be additional advice on the importance of headwinds?

Yes to all?
 
N62NA
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RE: Not A Good Week For Westbound Tatl 757's Part 2

Thu Jan 12, 2012 11:41 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 17):
We've already got the on-time statistics for that.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 18):
Flights already have on-time statistics. And it makes no difference if the delay is sitting at the gate, stopping for fuel, or holding at the destination. A delay is a delay.

As you each know, the schedules are ridiculously padded to begin with. So we should all take those "on time statistics" with a big grain of salt.

But in this day and age - with information at everyone's fingertips - it's quite easy to also show a % of time that the flight had to make a stop for fuel.
 
roseflyer
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RE: Not A Good Week For Westbound Tatl 757's Part 2

Thu Jan 12, 2012 11:42 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 18):
Quoting N62NA (Reply 13):
I think it should be disclosed at the time of booking - just prior to pressing the "Pay" button - that x% of the time the flight needs to divert for fuel.

Flights already have on-time statistics. And it makes no difference if the delay is sitting at the gate, stopping for fuel, or holding at the destination. A delay is a delay.

I think stating the percentage of flights that arrives on time is far more valuable than indicating how often the plane diverts for fuel. Diverting for fuel is just one cause of delays. People care about if they arrive on time. A low percentage could reflect diversions for fuel or any other reason such as how painful SFO flow control can get during arrival banks or how congested northeast airports get.

However, I don't think UA's website currently indicate on time percentage when selecting flights.
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BMI727
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RE: Not A Good Week For Westbound Tatl 757's Part 2

Thu Jan 12, 2012 11:46 pm

Quoting N62NA (Reply 20):
As you each know, the schedules are ridiculously padded to begin with

So? A schedule, at it's most basic level, is the airline saying "we can get you here at this time" and on-time statistics is "here's how often we've been successful at that." What more do you need?

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 21):
Diverting for fuel is just one cause of delays. People care about if they arrive on time.

   What other disclaimers should the airlines add? "New York is a big and busy place so we'll probably have to wait"? Or how about "Minneapolis gets cold and snowy during the winter"?
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
aloges
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RE: Not A Good Week For Westbound Tatl 757's Part 2

Thu Jan 12, 2012 11:50 pm

Quoting N62NA (Reply 19):
Yes to all?

I'm afraid that this information would just be ignored along with the carrier's T&Cs/CoC...
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United1
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RE: Not A Good Week For Westbound Tatl 757's Part 2

Thu Jan 12, 2012 11:51 pm

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 21):
However, I don't think UA's website currently indicate on time percentage when selecting flights.

It does actually...UA gives you an on-time percentage and a cancellation rate....when you mouse over the flight details.
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N62NA
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RE: Not A Good Week For Westbound Tatl 757's Part 2

Fri Jan 13, 2012 12:07 am

Quoting aloges (Reply 23):
I'm afraid that this information would just be ignored along with the carrier's T&Cs/CoC...

But if we did have information on diverts, that would be enough for me and I never would have started that first thread on this topic a few days ago in the first place, and all the news media wouldn't have seized upon this story.  
 
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seabosdca
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RE: Not A Good Week For Westbound Tatl 757's Part 2

Fri Jan 13, 2012 12:23 am

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 21):
I think stating the percentage of flights that arrives on time is far more valuable than indicating how often the plane diverts for fuel. Diverting for fuel is just one cause of delays. People care about if they arrive on time.

   Most people don't care if their delay was caused by a fuel stop or some other reason. They just care that they're late.

For what it's worth, the STR-EWR flight has an absolutely terrible on-time percentage, so people can factor that into their decisions. I probably wouldn't care if I were terminating at EWR or had a long connection; I might take it into account if the system offered me a tight connection.
 
codc10
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RE: Not A Good Week For Westbound Tatl 757's Part 2

Fri Jan 13, 2012 12:41 am

Right now, the 767-200ERs are loss-makers and UA is doing all it can to unload them this year. 787s are on the way.

At the same time, the 767-322ERs in the UA domestic configuration have not yet begun to roll out of mods.

Major upheaval is coming to the UA international schedule. I can assure you that the longest-haul 757 flying most susceptible to diversions will be addressed.
 
AussieItaliano
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RE: Not A Good Week For Westbound Tatl 757's Part 2

Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:06 am

I have mixed opinions about this issue. On one hand, I recognize that several of these routes wouldn't exist if they had to be flown with larger aircraft, but on the other hand, I recognize that UA has really stretched the 757 to its max range. IAD to CDG and AMS, for example, have seen too many diversions on the westbound leg. I recognize that the winds have been extremely fierce this winter, but at the same time, most of the EWR minimum fuel landings, year round, are from CO 757s returning from Europe.

I do not, however, think that the 757 should be banned from flying across the pond, or that the FAA, or any other governmental body should intervene due to these diversions.

Until Airbus, Boeing, or any other manufacturers build a narrow-body plane that has a range larger than the 757, we'll see them flying the Atlantic for years to come. However, even if that plane is built someday, expect airlines to stretch its legs to the max as well. Don't be surprised if in 10-15 years we start seeing articles such as "Flights from Naples, Warsaw and Budapest to Newark forced to make fuel stops because of high winds". Even if the range of a narrowbody is improved, airlines (rightly so) will look for new opportunities to utilize them on longer thin routes. While STR-EWR would no longer have to deal with fuel stops, VNO (Vilnius) - EWR might have to.

I'll also admit that I have not flown on a 757 to Europe, not because I wouldn't, but mostly because I'm located on the US West Coast, and to get back to Italy or elsewhere in Europe, I find it easier to fly non-stop to a European hub and transfer there as opposed to connecting on the US East Coast.

[Edited 2012-01-12 17:08:55]
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shaq
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RE: Not A Good Week For Westbound Tatl 757's Part 2

Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:22 am

I think that some of you and the media are overreacting with this situation. I know that IAD TATL flying can be on the edge of 757 range, but Europe-EWR diversion are because of the harsh headwinds we are getting this winter. The media and you know this. So , what you think that UA should do because of this? Ask God to "turn off the fan"? I am sure that delayed passengers are getting their trips re arranged. They are not complaining as loud as you!!!

Quoting N62NA (Reply 25):

UA has cancellation rates and delays rate when you are booking flights. If you think that your flight is getting too delayed book another one or fly another airline.
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DarkSnowyNight
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RE: Not A Good Week For Westbound Tatl 757's Part 2

Fri Jan 13, 2012 5:27 am

Quoting TOMMY767 (Reply 10):

Use larger aircraft that won't cause for diversions.....?

Sure. Dispatch will just call up the leftover widebody fairy and get right on that...

Quoting mcdu (Reply 12):
These people should be removed from their duties for bungling the decision to put 757's beyond their range.

? No aircraft has been scheduled beyond its range. That would be a violation and the airline in question would not allow for that. Winds like this happen at times. If that's a problem, book elsewhere, if you even can, for those routings. I'm sure UA/CO is satisfied with their route planning people.

Quoting shaq (Reply 29):

I think that some of you and the media are overreacting with this situation.

To say the least. Slow news week for A.net?
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mcdu
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RE: Not A Good Week For Westbound Tatl 757's Part 2

Fri Jan 13, 2012 12:16 pm

Quoting darksnowynight (Reply 30):
? No aircraft has been scheduled beyond its range. That would be a violation and the airline in question would not allow for that. Winds like this happen at times. If that's a problem, book elsewhere, if you even can, for those routings. I'm sure UA/CO is satisfied with their route planning people.

In case you have missed this item in the earlier thread the 757 diverts to IAD from AMS and CDG are not being seen on just wind days. The airplane may have still air, zero payload range but with holiday loads or seasonal winds or weather requiring an alternate at the destination the airplane can not make it to IAD without significant payload penalty. As I relayed earlier UA will be blocking up to 30 seats on these flights to attempt to get them to their destination without stopping.

So if the issue of making fuel stops was not a big issue, why would the airline limit the amount of customers allowed on board? If you believe they are happy with the route planners, do you think the airline was planning on having to withhold 30 seats when they started the service to IAD with the 757's? If they were then why haven't they been placing this restriction on these flights sooner to prevent diverts?

The reaction by the airline clearly indicates they have made an error in putting the 757's on the long TATL routes. Also, I will venture to say there is no way to achieve profitability on those routes when limiting the sale of seats by such a large amount.

To surmise the divert topic. It isn't just a rare batch of winter winds that is causing these diverts. It is placing an airplane that is not capable to fly those leg lengths under anything less than ideal conditions. No fault of the airplane since it doesn't get a say so in where it is routed. It lies at the foot of the route planners that felt they could stretch the range and turns out they couldn't. They now have a national media interest in their failure and they should be removed from their duties. This is an embarrassment to have people like this making decisions that impact the travel plans of so many customers without any regard for their needs.
 
aloges
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RE: Not A Good Week For Westbound Tatl 757's Part 2

Fri Jan 13, 2012 12:28 pm

Quoting mcdu (Reply 31):
They now have a national media interest in their failure and they should be removed from their duties. This is an embarrassment to have people like this making decisions that impact the travel plans of so many customers without any regard for their needs.

Mon dieu. I should think that many people prefer a direct flight over a connection, even if there's a slightly bigger chance for a fuel diversion due to the aircraft type which makes these flights viable in the first place. For you to bring out the big guns like this shows little regard for anything but the typical media hype on a slow news day.
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seabosdca
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RE: Not A Good Week For Westbound Tatl 757's Part 2

Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:00 pm

Quoting mcdu (Reply 31):
It lies at the foot of the route planners that felt they could stretch the range and turns out they couldn't. They now have a national media interest in their failure and they should be removed from their duties.

So everyone who makes a decision that ends up causing some complications under unexpected circumstances should be fired?

I hope I never work for a boss who feels that way.
 
vv701
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RE: Not A Good Week For Westbound Tatl 757's Part 2

Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:20 pm

Weather patterns impact different areas in different ways.

In December 2010 LHR was closed for several days because of heavy snow and freezing weather. There was rightly an outcry. Is not winter a time to expect heavy snow and heavy frost particularly in northerly latitudes? And after all is London not located in a more northerly latitude than anywhere in the USA except for the state of Alaska?

Heathrow Airport Ltd has responded to the heavy snow and frost by significant additional investment in, for example, snow clearing equipment. They did this despite the fact that, although there were also significant local snow falls in the previous winter (2009-10), potentially disruptive snow has only historically fallen in the southeast of England on average once every ten or eleven years.

The strong southwesterly jet stream that has had such an impact on westerly TATL flights in recent weeks has also had other effects. For example I can reach LHR from my home in under an hour. But so far this winter we have not had a single frost nor seen one snow flake. This is almost certainly because of the strength and direction of the jet stream. In December 2010 it blew in a northerly directioninto the Arctic Circle, turned sharply south and then blew across Iceland into northwest Europe. This winter in December and so far in January it has, as mentioned above, blown strongly from the southwest usually directly over the UK.

Was Heathrow Airport Ltd right to invest heavily in snow clearing and other similar equipment? Well if they wish to keep operating profitably almost certainly 'yes' even though the historic meteorological record suggests they may not have any use for it for perhaps ten or more years.

The northerly jet stream blows all year round. It was responsible for severe flooding in the UK in the summer of 2007. In winter it is nearly always stronger than in summer. Usually it meanders across the north Atlantic. The severe winter weather that closed LHR just over a year ago was caused when instead of meandering it turned unusually sharply northwards and then equally unusually sharply southwards. The disruptive winds over the last few weeks are partly due to the fact that the jet stream has hardly meandered at all but blown almost straight from the southwest to the northeast. The lack of a significant meander means that aircraft flying from northwest Europe directly to northeast USA have flown directly into the jet stream for most if not all the flight or had to divert and take a significantly more northerly or southerly route.

Next winter it may or may not snow heavily at LHR. But statistically the probability is it will not.

Next winter the Arctic jet stream will blow. Statistically this is certain.

Next winter the jet stream will blow harder than it will next summer. Statistically this is a very safe bet but not totally certain. Next winter the jet stream could reach speeds of up to or slightly over 200 mph. This is unlikely but, like heavy snow at LHR, it is possible. But it is more likely to blow at less than half that speed.

Next winter the jet stream may meander. That is probable. However it could make dramatic turns. If it turns sharply up into the Arctic circle and then sharply in a southerly direction it should enable Heathrow Airport Ltd to use its new snow clearing equipment. Or it might blow without meadering significantly increasing the fuel consumption of all aircraft flying east to west across the Atlantic and forcing 752 operators to divert for refueling, while speeding west to east flights and reducing their fuel burn.

Just as Heathrow Airport Ltd made a commercial decision - correct or incorrect - when they purchased their new snow clearing equipment, so TATL 752 operators will make a commercial decision whether to continue all their 752 TATL services next winter. My guess is that most will still operate but that a few of the longer stages might be discontinued or be operated by alternative equipment with a longer range.
 
by738
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RE: Not A Good Week For Westbound Tatl 757's Part 2

Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:28 pm

most would still use these services from their local airports even if advertised as with a fuel stop, so they'll not be losing much sleep over it
 
BRJ
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RE: Not A Good Week For Westbound Tatl 757's Part 2

Fri Jan 13, 2012 2:40 pm

Quoting N62NA (Reply 7):

The new CBS morning show (which I still have mixed feelings on) did a piece on this issue on either Tuesday or Wednesday this week. It focused solely on CO(UA), and everytime they mentioned 757 in the story, they would flash video footage of a 767-400 and 737-800.   

They also interviewed Sully on his take of the 'safety' risks involved with having to stop for fuel.

Seemed a little too much finger pointing at CO(UA), given that AA, US and DL all fly 757s across the Atlantic.
 
N62NA
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RE: Not A Good Week For Westbound Tatl 757's Part 2

Fri Jan 13, 2012 3:28 pm

Quoting mcdu (Reply 31):
It isn't just a rare batch of winter winds that is causing these diverts. It is placing an airplane that is not capable to fly those leg lengths under anything less than ideal conditions.

I agree. It's interesting that so many engaged in the debate here won't acknowledge that.
 
tommy767
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RE: Not A Good Week For Westbound Tatl 757's Part 2

Fri Jan 13, 2012 3:43 pm

Quoting BRJ (Reply 36):
Seemed a little too much finger pointing at CO(UA), given that AA, US and DL all fly 757s across the Atlantic.

UA by far is the biggest operator of 757s across the Atlantic. AA, DL, US don't even come close.

Quoting CODC10 (Reply 27):
Right now, the 767-200ERs are loss-makers

Funny. That mindset only started about a year ago. Before that CO flew the 762 and was very hush hush on the economics. A bit skeptical on this one.

Quoting darksnowynight (Reply 30):
Sure. Dispatch will just call up the leftover widebody fairy and get right on that...

The widebody fairy should start listening: They have a combined fleet of 74 777, 16 764, 8 762, and 35 763. More than enough to remove some of the struggling 757 routes
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Mir
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RE: Not A Good Week For Westbound Tatl 757's Part 2

Fri Jan 13, 2012 4:21 pm

Quoting mcdu (Reply 31):

In case you have missed this item in the earlier thread the 757 diverts to IAD from AMS and CDG are not being seen on just wind days.

Yeah, those routes should be able to take a 763. But remember how this thread started - a complaint about STR-EWR diverting. That's a route that probably can't support more than a 752. There are cases where a larger airplane would be appropriate (and there are more of them from IAD just based on geography, but there are others where the 752 is the only plane that can fly that route - if not that, then people have to take a connection. Which is more of a hassle than a fuel stop.

Quoting TOMMY767 (Reply 38):
More than enough to remove some of the struggling 757 routes

Is there any evidence that they're struggling to make money?

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N62NA
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RE: Not A Good Week For Westbound Tatl 757's Part 2

Fri Jan 13, 2012 4:37 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 39):
Is there any evidence that they're struggling to make money?

I believe "struggling" was referring to if weather conditions aren't ideal, they'll have to make a fuel stop.
 
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RE: Not A Good Week For Westbound Tatl 757's Part 2

Fri Jan 13, 2012 4:40 pm

Quoting TOMMY767 (Reply 38):
The widebody fairy should start listening: They have a combined fleet of 74 777, 16 764, 8 762, and 35 763.

It's just not that easy.

6 of those 777 and 14 of the 763 are in domestic configuration.

The 764 and 2-class 777 fleets are extremely heavily used, mostly on routes absolutely requiring their range.

The 3-class 777, 763 and 744 are hardly appropriate equipment for low-yield routes (and in any case I'd much rather ride in Y on a PMCO 752 than a PMUA 3-class 763).

UA would probably be better off canceling many of these routes altogether than flying them with 762.
 
sunilgupta
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RE: Not A Good Week For Westbound Tatl 757's Part 2

Fri Jan 13, 2012 5:13 pm

Quoting mcdu (Reply 12):
So now they have cooked up the lame wind excuse for their poor planning and research.

Hardly a lame excuse... the FRA-IAD leg which I fly often is pushing 9+ hours these days... either the plates moved or the winds are a lot stronger.

Sunil
 
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RE: Not A Good Week For Westbound Tatl 757's Part 2

Fri Jan 13, 2012 5:49 pm

Am I the only one who thinks it would be rather cool, novel, and exciting to have to make a tech stop in Halifax or Gander? Surely not in this crowd. How elemental and ancient to be thwarted by headwinds. Us and Henry Hudson. Puts us in perspective. I'd enjoy being on that. Maybe I'm weird.

-Rampart
 
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RE: Not A Good Week For Westbound Tatl 757's Part 2

Fri Jan 13, 2012 5:53 pm

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 41):
UA would probably be better off canceling many of these routes altogether than flying them with 762.

FORWARD THINKING: Adjust the economics of the 762. Less J seats, more Y seats with less pitch. It can be done.
"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
 
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RE: Not A Good Week For Westbound Tatl 757's Part 2

Fri Jan 13, 2012 6:05 pm

Quoting TOMMY767 (Reply 44):
FORWARD THINKING: Adjust the economics of the 762. Less J seats, more Y seats with less pitch. It can be done.

Sure anything can be done...can it be done profitably? probably not with the 762s.
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tommy767
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RE: Not A Good Week For Westbound Tatl 757's Part 2

Fri Jan 13, 2012 6:16 pm

Quoting United1 (Reply 45):
Sure anything can be done...can it be done profitably? probably not with the 762s.

Again, only a belief since the merger. Before that the 762 was taken for what it was.
"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
 
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RE: Not A Good Week For Westbound Tatl 757's Part 2

Fri Jan 13, 2012 6:25 pm

Is the news so slow that the only thing they have to do is beat up UA? Don't they realize AA is the punching bag of 2012?     
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 6):
I recall seeing an executive configured 757 that said it had an aux tank.

   But it is amazing what removing 15t of passengers does to improve the wing loading... So an executive jet has the weight. A friend of mine is often on an executive 757 flying LAX-CDG. We're talking a plane with ~8t of extra 'fittings' yet rarely carries more than 2t of payload. So there is little trouble adding several tons of fuel into the cargo hold.

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 8):
a way to expand service to cities and/or times where it might not otherwise be offered.

  

That is the part some do not seem to get   

Quoting Mir (Reply 9):
What's UA supposed to do, commune with the weather to get it to cut the headwinds down?   

Yes.  
Quoting N62NA (Reply 20):
As you each know, the schedules are ridiculously padded to begin with. So we should all take those "on time statistics" with a big grain of salt.

Wait, if the schedule is padded and thus 'on time,' that implies connections will be made. So what is the issue.

Quoting United1 (Reply 45):

Sure anything can be done...can it be done profitably? probably not with the 762s.

In today's environment, how does anyone make money with a fleet of 762s? I'm afraid the type is near the end of its economic life.

Lightsaber
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wn700driver
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RE: Not A Good Week For Westbound Tatl 757's Part 2

Fri Jan 13, 2012 6:33 pm

No, I Rampart, and you're not... Sometimes, I wonder where this site's priorities are.  
Base not your happiness on the deeds of others, for what is given can be taken away. No Hope = No Fear
 
United1
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RE: Not A Good Week For Westbound Tatl 757's Part 2

Fri Jan 13, 2012 6:40 pm

Quoting TOMMY767 (Reply 46):
Quoting United1 (Reply 45):
Sure anything can be done...can it be done profitably? probably not with the 762s.

Again, only a belief since the merger. Before that the 762 was taken for what it was.

No that's a belief I've held long before the merger....CO just didn't have a choice but to operate the aircraft with their limited fleet of wide body aircraft and the 787 delays.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 47):
how does anyone make money with a fleet of 762s? I'm afraid the type is near the end of its economic life.

I don't think anyone makes money with the 762s in passenger configuration anylonger. I look at them the same way that UA looked at the 747-SP just prior to their replacement with 744/772 aircraft. They were great trailblazing aircraft that filled a nitch later in life but have passed the point where they make economic sense to operate.
I know the voices in my head aren't real but sometimes their ideas are just awesome!!!

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