hiloboy1
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Hawaiian Airlines Creates Maui Hub And Adds More S

Thu Jan 12, 2012 10:39 pm

A counter move by Hawaiian to fend off the interlopers?

http://www.staradvertiser.com/news/b...eaking/137209248.html?id=137209248
 
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aloha73g
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RE: Hawaiian Airlines Creates Maui Hub And Adds More S

Thu Jan 12, 2012 10:58 pm

Maui News had more information:
http://mauinews.com/page/content.det...ghts--ease-connections.html?nav=10

Here are the OGG specific changes:
OGG-LAS (re-timed for connections to from KOA/ITO)
OGG-LAX (Daily 6/21/12 thru 8/18/12)
OGG-LIH (increase from 1x to 2x daily)
OGG-ITO (increase from 1x to 2x daily)
OGG-KOA (increase from 2x to 3x daily)

Quote:
On June 21, Hawaiian will reintroduce a daily direct flight to Los Angeles, the fifth West Coast city to get a direct link. That flight will operate through Aug. 18.

It will depart LAX at 9:40 a.m., arriving at Kahului at 12:15 p.m. The return will depart at 1:45 p.m. and arrive in Los Angeles at 10:05 p.m.

Quote:
Details of the changes in the Las Vegas flight will be announced shortly, but the twice-weekly flight will switch from an evening to a morning arrival here. This should allow Big Island residents to make connections to the new Kahului-Kona or Kahului-Hilo schedules.


The addition of 3 717s allows for increased interisland operations, particularly from HNL at peak times and direct flights to OGG from LIH/KOA/ITO:

Quote:
Hawaiian is in the process of increasing its Neighbor Island service to 180 flights daily from 157 flights on peak travel days, and to 168 flights from 143 flights on off-peak days.

Daily service to Maui will increase to 36 round-trip flights from 29 round-trip flights on peak travel days and to 34 round-trip flights from 27 round-trip flights on off-peak travel days.


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Tdan
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RE: Hawaiian Airlines Creates Maui Hub And Adds More S

Thu Jan 12, 2012 11:15 pm

Interesting...

The inter-island increases should really help with connectivity to the mainland since it was directional before. HA does really well from a yield perspective on OGG-KOA/ITO, so no surprise here. OGG-LAX and LAS are both very safe additions as well. Seems like HA is putting its toe in the water in OGG and will be curious to see if LIH and KOA ever get some love from the mainland!
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lightsaber
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RE: Hawaiian Airlines Creates Maui Hub And Adds More S

Thu Jan 12, 2012 11:37 pm

Interesting. This explains where the new three 717s are going.  
Quoting aloha73g (Reply 1):
OGG-LIH (increase from 1x to 2x daily)
OGG-ITO (increase from 1x to 2x daily)
OGG-KOA (increase from 2x to 3x daily)

In my opinion, the big news is the increased "HNL Bypass" service. That is a product offering that will be tough to compete with. I'm excited about the new LAX service, however I think the new interisland service will do more to strengthen HA's position.

I'm surprised LAX and not SFO. Does anyone have any information?

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EA CO AS
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RE: Hawaiian Airlines Creates Maui Hub And Adds More S

Thu Jan 12, 2012 11:54 pm

Quoting Tdan (Reply 2):
curious to see if LIH and KOA ever get some love from the mainland!

We give 'em plenty of love!

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Alaska Airlines.  
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Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
ha763
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RE: Hawaiian Airlines Creates Maui Hub And Adds More S

Fri Jan 13, 2012 12:23 am

I already saw OGG as an alternative to HNL and sort of hub for HA for a while now. Sure, the connections to the neighbor islands are not really there right now, but when I look to fly to the mainland, the OGG flights always come up with the corresponding interisland connections. I even flew HNL-OGG-LAS because I wanted a morning departure to LAS and who would pass up a chance to fly a 717?

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 3):
I'm surprised LAX and not SFO. Does anyone have any information?

For whatever reason (UA), HA has never done well when they fly more than 1 SFO flight. They have tried SFO-OGG and 2 SFO-HNL flights before, but these flights never did well.
 
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RE: Hawaiian Airlines Creates Maui Hub And Adds More S

Fri Jan 13, 2012 12:54 am

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 4):
Quoting Tdan (Reply 2):
curious to see if LIH and KOA ever get some love from the mainland!

We give 'em plenty of love!

Signed,
Alaska Airlines.

Cute.

HA did LAX-KOA at one time IIRC. HA would have difficulty doing LIH-Mainland due to LIH's runway length.
 
us330
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RE: Hawaiian Airlines Creates Maui Hub And Adds More S

Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:09 am

Quoting ha763 (Reply 5):
For whatever reason (UA), HA has never done well when they fly more than 1 SFO flight

Have they considered flying KOA-SFO/SJC? My personal observation is that the Kohala coast is swarming with people from the bay area. I realize UA already offers 2x daily service, and AS flies from OAK, so maybe there might not be more room for another competitor.

Quoting Tdan (Reply 2):
HA does really well from a yield perspective on OGG-KOA

I would think that OGG-KOA is almost entirely tourist traffic, based on personal observation.
 
jpetekyxmd80
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RE: Hawaiian Airlines Creates Maui Hub And Adds More S

Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:10 am

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 6):
HA would have difficulty doing LIH-Mainland due to LIH's runway length.

I don't see why. AA frequently sends 767s to LIH and UA has done so in the past. It's only 500' less than OGG, and OGG can send a 777 to ORD.

That said, I don't expect any mainland routes outside of OGG/HNL. AS are serving KOA and LIH best, and HA are prioritizing international expansion, there's no need or great opportunity.

[Edited 2012-01-12 17:12:36]
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RE: Hawaiian Airlines Creates Maui Hub And Adds More S

Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:14 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 3):
I'm surprised LAX and not SFO. Does anyone have any information?

I'm sure it's because UA has the SFO-Hawaii market pretty well locked up. There's more competition/airline diversity in the LAX-Hawaii corridor.

I'm not curious enough to look it up to confirm, but I would also bet the O&D between LA and Hawaii is greater than SF-Hawaii.
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BoeingGuy
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RE: Hawaiian Airlines Creates Maui Hub And Adds More S

Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:19 am

Quoting us330 (Reply 7):
Have they considered flying KOA-SFO/SJC? My personal observation is that the Kohala coast is swarming with people from the bay area. I realize UA already offers 2x daily service, and AS flies from OAK, so maybe there might not be more room for another competitor.

AS also does SJC-KOA.
 
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RE: Hawaiian Airlines Creates Maui Hub And Adds More S

Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:33 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 3):
In my opinion, the big news is the increased "HNL Bypass" service. That is a product offering that will be tough to compete with

I agree, this is nice to bypass HNL when you are "island hopping". Looking for flights for my honeymoon as I'll be visiting Kauai, Maui, and The Big Island. Right now my only options for LIH-OGG are 1x HA, 2x WP, and (shudder) 1x YV.
 
ha763
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RE: Hawaiian Airlines Creates Maui Hub And Adds More S

Fri Jan 13, 2012 3:20 am

Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 8):
AA frequently sends 767s to LIH and UA has done so in the past. It's only 500' less than OGG, and OGG can send a 777 to ORD.

AA doesn't send 767s to LIH, only 757s. I recall whenever UA used a 767 to LIH, it would stop over in HNL for more fuel. UA never flew OGG-ORD non-stop with the 777. It stopped over in KOA. The runway at OGG is not strong enough to allow the 777 to take off with enough fuel to fly OGG-ORD non-stop.
 
HAL
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RE: Hawaiian Airlines Creates Maui Hub And Adds More S

Fri Jan 13, 2012 3:39 am

Quoting ha763 (Reply 12):
AA doesn't send 767s to LIH, only 757s. I recall whenever UA used a 767 to LIH, it would stop over in HNL for more fuel. UA never flew OGG-ORD non-stop with the 777. It stopped over in KOA. The runway at OGG is not strong enough to allow the 777 to take off with enough fuel to fly OGG-ORD non-stop.

All correct, except that the problem with OGG is that the runway isn't long enough, not that it can't support the weight. It's 7000 feet long, and although it's enough to get a 767 or 777 to the west coast, any further and you have to start offloading people or cargo. I know AA uses a 763 to fly OGG - DFW nonstop, but in talking to the crews here in Maui (we share the same crew hotel), it's always close to max performance to get out of OGG, and they often have to block off seats to reduce the load. If the Kona winds are blowing and they have to use runway 20 (uphill), there's a good chance they can't do it without a stop in HNL or LAX.

Since LIH is even shorter than OGG, the same applies, but even more so. That 500 foot reduction makes a huge difference in allowable performance numbers for aircraft that are already right on the edge of making it out of shorter runways, like the 763. The 757 is overpowered, relative to the 767, so that is what allows it to come & go from LIH when its bigger brother can't.

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jpetekyxmd80
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RE: Hawaiian Airlines Creates Maui Hub And Adds More S

Fri Jan 13, 2012 3:43 am

Quoting ha763 (Reply 12):

AA doesn't send 767s to LIH, only 757s. I recall whenever UA used a 767 to LIH, it would stop over in HNL for more fuel. UA never flew OGG-ORD non-stop with the 777. It stopped over in KOA. The runway at OGG is not strong enough to allow the 777 to take off with enough fuel to fly OGG-ORD non-stop.

They do send 767s to LIH. Not scheduled, but as a very, very frequent equipment swap. I've seen it as often has 3 or even 4 times a week in the past. Both 767-200s and 767-300s. United operated scheduled 767 service during the summer in the past, so I find it highly unlikely they would make an equipment swap only to necessitate the need for a HNL stop.

You're flat wrong about OGG, though I was surprised too. Yes, it only used to be ORD-OGG-KOA-ORD on UA 3 (i've flown the OGG-KOA segment 3 times). Now the stopover operates weekly during the winter. During the summer, for the past few years, UA has flown ORD-OGG-ORD daily, no KOA stop. In the past, AA has also flown OGG-ORD with the 763.

Here's some very awesome evidence of it. : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XwUEtPSsm5k
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RE: Hawaiian Airlines Creates Maui Hub And Adds More S

Fri Jan 13, 2012 3:44 am

Quoting ha763 (Reply 12):
AA doesn't send 767s to LIH, only 757s.

I took an AA 762 into LIH 4 yrs ago as a last minute sub for a 757 out of LAX. It wasn't anywhere near full, not was the return (possibly why it worked out just fine to use the 767?) I just remember that not all the FA's were 76 qualified so we had to wait for some who were, and then the plane had been catered for a JFK flight with Flagship service so the food onboard was amazing and with only 4 of us up front it was great!
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jpetekyxmd80
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RE: Hawaiian Airlines Creates Maui Hub And Adds More S

Fri Jan 13, 2012 3:54 am

Yep, WNCrew. They've been doing a lot of that lately. Particularly in Nov/Dec. Of course a 767 will not be full as an equip swap, as it has 35 more seats than the 757. On the other hand, the 762 has less. AA could easily put an equip swap on a KOA or HNL flight instead. But they usually choose do it on LIH. And return to LAX nonstop.
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jpetekyxmd80
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RE: Hawaiian Airlines Creates Maui Hub And Adds More S

Fri Jan 13, 2012 4:14 am

Also, United flew 763s from SFO during the Christmas season a few weeks ago. Clearly the purpose of this was to have more seats at this peak time, not to have a weight restriction. The aircraft operated LIH-SFO non-stop.

Quoting HAL (Reply 13):
All correct, except that the problem with OGG is that the runway isn't long enough, not that it can't support the weight.

No, not correct. UA does fly 777 on Maui-Chicago. All summer long.

On occasion, both AA and UA send 767s to LIH. They send them back to the California non-stop.

[Edited 2012-01-12 20:23:49]
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MaverickM11
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RE: Hawaiian Airlines Creates Maui Hub And Adds More S

Fri Jan 13, 2012 4:34 am

Wow that's a really terrible idea. Do they *really* mean "hub" or just more flights to Maui?

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 3):
In my opinion, the big news is the increased "HNL Bypass" service. That is a product offering that will be tough to compete with

Why would anyone try? There's so little meaningful traffic connecting over Hawaii--why bother splitting hairs over more than one hub?
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Sevensixtyseven
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RE: Hawaiian Airlines Creates Maui Hub And Adds More S

Fri Jan 13, 2012 4:40 am

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 4):

And hopefully soon to be WN. I wish they could maybe introduce some form of interisland service also, have WN fly OAK-KOA-LIH-OAK, or something similar. This would allow them to get into the smaller islands at the same time as other islands all at the same time. Another jet could be routed OAK-LIH-KOA-OAK. Of course, I'm no route planner...but I'd imagine KOA-LIH could easily be done interisland, because it is 263 miles long...enough warmup and cooldown time, then a turn back to the Mainland.

Quoting Tdan (Reply 2):

Would be nice to see a PHX-OGG flight...I've heard on a.net multiple times that there's a real need for more seats to PHX, as HA 35/36 is full all the time. And maybe an upgrade to an A332 on PHX-HNL
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RE: Hawaiian Airlines Creates Maui Hub And Adds More S

Fri Jan 13, 2012 4:42 am

Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 17):
No, not correct. UA does fly 777 on Maui-Chicago. All summer long.

They do nonstop ORD-OGG on the 777, but doesn't the return leg route OGG-KOA-ORD?
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RE: Hawaiian Airlines Creates Maui Hub And Adds More S

Fri Jan 13, 2012 4:48 am

Quoting wn676 (Reply 20):

They do nonstop ORD-OGG on the 777, but doesn't the return leg route OGG-KOA-ORD?

Always in the past, and sometimes in the present. It always used to be that way. It still is during this time of year, once weekly. But for the past few years during the summer, they've flown ORD-OGG-ORD daily. I know it's not very intuitive and I didn't believe it at first. But they do.
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cmb320
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RE: Hawaiian Airlines Creates Maui Hub And Adds More S

Fri Jan 13, 2012 5:28 am

Yep, it is very common for AA to send a 767 to LIH when the 757 craps out... as the ones they use to Hawaii frequently do.
 
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RE: Hawaiian Airlines Creates Maui Hub And Adds More S

Fri Jan 13, 2012 6:42 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 18):
Why would anyone try? There's so little meaningful traffic connecting over Hawaii--why bother splitting hairs over more than one hub?

Try booking an interisland ticket between 10 am and 2 pm and then you'll understand.

I grew up in OGG and this reminds me of the 1980s when AQ and HA had multiple flights per day between OGG and KOA, ITO, and LIH. I never expected this, but it actually makes a lot of sense. O&D from the mainland to OGG is much smaller than to HNL so it makes sense to try to fill the planes to OGG with connecting traffic rather than to HNL where O&D traffic alone could fill the plane. I think connecting times could probably be less and is much more convenient in OGG than in HNL. Despite being small, OGG has decent food options and plane spotting opportunities. It also allows for more interisland capacity for connecting international pax.

Hopefully this will be successful so additional flights to OGG can be started/restarted like PDX, SFO, SAN, JFK, and NRT/HND if the County of Maui realizes that overdevelopment does not result from a longer runway and international airport, but that's a discussion for another time . . . As a side note, there was an article in the Maui News a couple weeks ago detailing the dilemma the State of Hawaii is in regarding the main runway 2. Evidently it needs to be completely reconstructed because it's 70 yrs old and is requiring frequent temporary fixes and the federal government is now refusing to pay for anymore temporary fixes. In order to reconstruct it, it needs to be completely shut down and the alternate runway 5 is not suitable for mainland flights. It'll be interesting to see how it gets resolved.
 
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RE: Hawaiian Airlines Creates Maui Hub And Adds More S

Fri Jan 13, 2012 8:16 am

Quoting Sevensixtyseven (Reply 19):
Would be nice to see a PHX-OGG flight...I've heard on a.net multiple times that there's a real need for more seats to PHX, as HA 35/36 is full all the time. And maybe an upgrade to an A332 on PHX-HNL?

YES!!!! i recently took that flight on a VERY old US 757 in First, and let me tell you, something needs to be done.... and the flight was full!!! Bring on HA's A332!!
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Sevensixtyseven
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RE: Hawaiian Airlines Creates Maui Hub And Adds More S

Fri Jan 13, 2012 9:14 am

Quoting JQflightie (Reply 24):

I found it interesting that SFO got the A332 first, and not PHX. Although it very well could be a gate thing. The gate they use at PHX isn't big enough for a A332....that being said...HA should move into T4, on the international wing. T4-High B gates. That's where the daily 744 is parked...and it would increase connections even more than it would normally..Move the departure/arrival times up a notch, maybe an hour, and you'll pull in more people coming in on WN and US from the surrounding states on the first flight of the day into PHX. (Nevada, Utah, New Mexico, Colorado, and maybe Texas) It's a quick walk over to the gate, if you've already printed out your boarding pass at home, then board there. That being said...if you have checked bags...you'll have to retrieve and check them anyway. :/
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SurfandSnow
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RE: Hawaiian Airlines Creates Maui Hub And Adds More S

Fri Jan 13, 2012 9:50 am

The idea of an OGG "hub" is an interesting one indeed.

On one hand, I see good reason for it. There are increasingly more tourists that vehemently avoid the hustle and bustle of Oahu for the relative tranquility and natural beauty of the outer islands. These folks will now enjoy greater access to Maui from the mainland, and more options when it comes to reaching the Big Island and Kauai. I bet the option to bypass HNL altogether will be very popular - I'll never forget how my dad lamented connecting through HNL which was "awful" because it was "totally enclosed". Apparently OGG's friendly, laid back, open air experience is much preferred.

From a fleet perspective, HA has lots of new A330s coming in. In most cases these birds are being placed on popular 767 routes (i.e. HNL-LAX/LAS/HND/KIX), freeing up the smaller, older 767s for other missions. Perhaps many of them will end up being based in OGG, serving a variety of major mainland markets. The new 717s coming in are ostensibly there to help fill the void of Go! whenever YV finally decides to pull the plug on it (enilria's updates keep showing them slashing frequency on all routes - they're almost to a point of no return). But, perhaps a few more flights from OGG to Big Island and Kauai will prove worthwhile.

On the other hand, I'm not so sure OGG is a viable hub market. Relatively high cost "legacy" carriers can't seem to make hubs work in overwhelming leisure markets - DL at MCO and US at LAS are perfect examples of this. HNL draws upon a much larger population and business base than OGG, which has a tiny local market and mostly serves penny-pinching tourists. While HA is a great airline, it will struggle to compete against mainland carriers that benefit from tremendous connecting feed at their West Coast hubs and focus cities.

Also, this is HA's second attempt at an OGG build up. In the late 90s/early 2000s, HA was serving OGG from all of its mainland gateways (SEA, PDX, SFO, LAX, and SAN). The SFO and LAX flights quickly disappeared, while SAN was tried several times without success. They did seem to have quite the niche with SEA/PDX-OGG, but once AS entered the picture PDX-OGG was gone! It will be interesting to see how LAX-OGG goes. With UA reconfiguring its 2-class 767s for international missions, they'll inevitably be downgrading capacity on a number of flights to Hawaii that currently see 763 service. Bankrupt AA has slashed Hawaiian services, and DL has also been cutting service after a brief attempt at a Hawaiian (HNL) build-up. So, there should be room for HA to pick up the slack on this and other popular routes. Better to start doing it now than later, when WN will have entered the foray. LAX does offer tremendous O&D when it comes to Hawaii, but all of the competition will have the benefit of connecting traffic from markets like SLC, PHX, DEN, ORD, IAH, ATL, IAD, etc. to help fill their flights.

In any case, I love HA and OGG and wish them the best of luck with this endeavor. I sincerely hope all goes well!  
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HAL
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RE: Hawaiian Airlines Creates Maui Hub And Adds More S

Fri Jan 13, 2012 11:18 am

Quoting BeachBoy (Reply 23):
there was an article in the Maui News a couple weeks ago detailing the dilemma the State of Hawaii is in regarding the main runway 2. Evidently it needs to be completely reconstructed because it's 70 yrs old and is requiring frequent temporary fixes and the federal government is now refusing to pay for anymore temporary fixes. In order to reconstruct it, it needs to be completely shut down and the alternate runway 5 is not suitable for mainland flights. It'll be interesting to see how it gets resolved.

I've wondered about this too, since I've been flying many SEA-OGG flights over the past decade. With only one viable runway for airline use, and that runway near (or past) it's useful life, what are they going to do? Does anyone here care to hazard a guess how long of full-on-blitz construction project would take if they just shut it all down, tore it up, and built a new runway?

HAL
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Sevensixtyseven
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RE: Hawaiian Airlines Creates Maui Hub And Adds More S

Fri Jan 13, 2012 11:48 am

Quoting HAL (Reply 27):

I would think that 5/23 could be used by all interisland flights, but I'm not sure what condition that runway is in..I'm sure it would work only as a temporary solution. Flights from the mainland could stop in ITO, or KOA, then to or from their destinations.
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AAIL86
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RE: Hawaiian Airlines Creates Maui Hub And Adds More S

Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:41 pm

Quoting aloha73g (Reply 1):
OGG-LAS (re-timed for connections to from KOA/ITO)
OGG-LAX (Daily 6/21/12 thru 8/18/12)
OGG-LIH (increase from 1x to 2x daily)
OGG-ITO (increase from 1x to 2x daily)
OGG-KOA (increase from 2x to 3x daily)

This is great news for HA. Glad to see them continue to grow.

Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 17):
On occasion, both AA and UA send 767s to LIH. They send them back to the California non-stop.

I flew LIH-LAX on an AA 762 in 2007 (equipment swap).
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cruiseshipcrew
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RE: Hawaiian Airlines Creates Maui Hub And Adds More S

Fri Jan 13, 2012 4:24 pm

Nice to see HA adding flights. I personally would rather connect in HNL anyday. It's such a interesting airport and great for exploring, eating etc where I find OGG to be rather boring.

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RE: Hawaiian Airlines Creates Maui Hub And Adds More S

Fri Jan 13, 2012 4:28 pm

Quoting HAL (Reply 13):
I know AA uses a 763 to fly OGG - DFW nonstop, but in talking to the crews here in Maui (we share the same crew hotel), it's always close to max performance to get out of OGG, and they often have to block off seats to reduce the load.



They used to fly the 763 on the ORD-OGG route. In fact Oprah chartered a 763 to fly her employees to OGG a number of years ago.
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aloha73g
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RE: Hawaiian Airlines Creates Maui Hub And Adds More S

Fri Jan 13, 2012 5:16 pm

Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 26):
I'm not so sure OGG is a viable hub market.

It's not really a "hub" in the true sense of the word, atleast how we usually think of a hub (DL @ ATL or AA @ DFW). It's really more of a very tiny focus city with a few designed connections. OGG will still be a major O&D market, now with a small percentage of designed connections while HNL will still handle the vast majority of connecting traffic. What HA is trying to do is shift some interisland connections from LIH, KOA and ITO to go via OGG to SEA, OAK, SJC, LAX and most importantly LAS.

Currently interisland flights to/from HNL are overflowing in the middle of the day with passengers making connections to/from mainland and international flights. If they can free up some of those interisland seats for local O&D and connections to HNL exclusive destinations (SYD, MNL, KIX, FUK, ICN, PDX, SFO, PDX, SMF, SAN & JFK), they will have accomplished their goal.

Its important to note that the additional OGG-ITO/KOA/LIH flights are being specifically and intentionally scheduled to connect to OGG's LAS flight. HNL-LAS will now have more room for HNL O&D since most neighbor island passengers can now go via OGG.

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RE: Hawaiian Airlines Creates Maui Hub And Adds More S

Fri Jan 13, 2012 6:08 pm

UA occasionally uses a 767 on their LIH-DEN non-stop during peak periods. Both the KOA-DEN and LIH-DEN weekend non-stops are mostly 757s but sometimes use 767s.

The UA OGG-DEN flight, whether weekend only or daily (depending on time of year), is always a 767.

...and just for clarification, as has already been stated, UAs OGG-ORD (777) flight sometimes operates non-stop and sometimes operates via KOA. As an example, this month it is OGG-KOA-ORD and only operating on Saturdays.
 
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RE: Hawaiian Airlines Creates Maui Hub And Adds More S

Fri Jan 13, 2012 6:33 pm

Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 8):
I don't expect any mainland routes outside of OGG/HNL. AS are serving KOA and LIH best, and HA are prioritizing international expansion, there's no need or great opportunity.

I do not expect more mainland routes with widebodies. I expect the 737MAX and A320NEO to open the smaller Hawaiian cities to direct flights.

Quoting jetsetter629 (Reply 11):
Right now my only options for LIH-OGG are 1x HA, 2x WP, and (shudder) 1x YV.

Since that shudder was obviously due to excitement, I see which you selected.     

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 18):
Why would anyone try?

Since there are already connecting flights, there seems to be enough demand. By adding feed from LAX, it will make it rather tough for YV to compete (CASM and demand). While small by mainland standards, the OGG 'hub' makes sense.

With HA acquiring more 717s, there is an opportunity to differentiate their product. Considering how many silver setters retire in Hawaii, I could see this as being quite profitable.

Quoting aloha73g (Reply 32):
It's really more of a very tiny focus city with a few designed connections.

While a fair description, I suspect the 'hub' will grow. Nothing to make ATL fear for its status, but I do suspect more mainland connections.

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RE: Hawaiian Airlines Creates Maui Hub And Adds More S

Fri Jan 13, 2012 6:36 pm

Quoting Tdan (Reply 2):
curious to see if LIH and KOA ever get some love from the mainland!

I know UA did use a 763 from the mainland after 9-11 AFAIR. LIH's main limiting factor is its short runway.
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RE: Hawaiian Airlines Creates Maui Hub And Adds More S

Fri Jan 13, 2012 6:39 pm

Quoting HAL (Reply 13):
All correct, except that the problem with OGG is that the runway isn't long enough, not that it can't support the weight. It's 7000 feet long, and although it's enough to get a 767 or 777 to the west coast, any further and you have to start offloading people or cargo. I know AA uses a 763 to fly OGG - DFW nonstop, but in talking to the crews here in Maui (we share the same crew hotel), it's always close to max performance to get out of OGG, and they often have to block off seats to reduce the load. If the Kona winds are blowing and they have to use runway 20 (uphill), there's a good chance they can't do it without a stop in HNL or LAX.

This is why the XXX-OGG-KOA-XXX triangle routes exist(ed).
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RE: Hawaiian Airlines Creates Maui Hub And Adds More S

Fri Jan 13, 2012 7:12 pm

No offense seriously but I would refrain from using the word 'hub' unless it's HA's jargon. With flights SJC/OAK-OGG 3x's a week each, no OGG service from PHX, SAN, SFO, JFK, PDX or SMF. Look like they've added two tpac flights and 8 inter-island.

On the other hand watch out AS. They have daily nonstop service from SEA & PDX (2 daily), SAN, OAK, SMF, SJC to OGG. That's a minihub with the size of the island/airport and the amount of people in & out or transiting. I think it's brilliant for either carrier to try and funnel domestic/outter-island service via OGG. Much smaller and connections are quick.

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RE: Hawaiian Airlines Creates Maui Hub And Adds More S

Fri Jan 13, 2012 7:39 pm

Quoting aloha73g (Reply 32):
It's not really a "hub" in the true sense of the word, atleast how we usually think of a hub (DL @ ATL or AA @ DFW). It's really more of a very tiny focus city with a few designed connections. OGG will still be a major O&D market, now with a small percentage of designed connections while HNL will still handle the vast majority of connecting traffic. What HA is trying to do is shift some interisland connections from LIH, KOA and ITO to go via OGG to SEA, OAK, SJC, LAX and most importantly LAS.

Currently interisland flights to/from HNL are overflowing in the middle of the day with passengers making connections to/from mainland and international flights. If they can free up some of those interisland seats for local O&D and connections to HNL exclusive destinations (SYD, MNL, KIX, FUK, ICN, PDX, SFO, PDX, SMF, SAN & JFK), they will have accomplished their goal.

Its important to note that the additional OGG-ITO/KOA/LIH flights are being specifically and intentionally scheduled to connect to OGG's LAS flight. HNL-LAS will now have more room for HNL O&D since most neighbor island passengers can now go via OGG.

   This explanation makes the most sense and is likely the only one that is sustainable. Relieve the HNL 1100 to 1500 interisland flights and continue the Asian expansion, departing HNL around 1400.   
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RE: Hawaiian Airlines Creates Maui Hub And Adds More S

Fri Jan 13, 2012 8:20 pm

Where are these 'new' 717's coming from ? MX ?
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RE: Hawaiian Airlines Creates Maui Hub And Adds More S

Fri Jan 13, 2012 10:07 pm

Quoting Sevensixtyseven (Reply 19):
Would be nice to see a PHX-OGG flight...I've heard on a.net multiple times that there's a real need for more seats to PHX, as HA 35/36 is full all the time. And maybe an upgrade to an A332 on PHX-HNL?

Agree, but I doubt it. I have been stating that 35/36 is booked close to seven months out and needs another daily to Hawai'i. HA seems to want to bolster other areas as well as increase their presence in Asia.

Quoting HAL (Reply 13):
All correct, except that the problem with OGG is that the runway isn't long enough, not that it can't support the weight.

I know they have had the plan for extending the runway, but is it ever going to happen? I can imagine the amount of traffic it could bring to OGG from the mainland and increase Maui traffic.
 
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RE: Hawaiian Airlines Creates Maui Hub And Adds More S

Fri Jan 13, 2012 10:12 pm

Quoting aztrainer (Reply 40):
I can imagine the amount of traffic it could bring to OGG from the mainland and increase Maui traffic.

I'm really not sure what additions from the mainland would come with it. Likely none. The big one is there would surely be a Japan flight or two if the runway was extended and customs/immigration added.
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RE: Hawaiian Airlines Creates Maui Hub And Adds More S

Sat Jan 14, 2012 2:02 am

Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 41):
I'm really not sure what additions from the mainland would come with it. Likely none. The big one is there would surely be a Japan flight or two if the runway was extended and customs/immigration added.

That's precisely why the runway has not been extended.....the environmentalists are afraid of the foreign pests(plants, bugs and tourists). The runway extension has been approved for over 10 years now, but the local chiefs are afraid of getting voted out of office (maybe?).
 
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RE: Hawaiian Airlines Creates Maui Hub And Adds More S

Sat Jan 14, 2012 3:35 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 18):
Wow that's a really terrible idea. Do they *really* mean "hub" or just more flights to Maui?

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 3):In my opinion, the big news is the increased "HNL Bypass" service. That is a product offering that will be tough to compete with
Why would anyone try? why bother splitting hairs over more than one hub?

It works for AS in PDX & SEA.
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RE: Hawaiian Airlines Creates Maui Hub And Adds More S

Sat Jan 14, 2012 6:02 am

Quoting HAL (Reply 27):
With only one viable runway for airline use, and that runway near (or past) it's useful life, what are they going to do? Does anyone here care to hazard a guess how long of full-on-blitz construction project would take if they just shut it all down, tore it up, and built a new runway?

The only solution I can think of is to stop mainland flights and close Kahului's main runway for a couple of months, and limit OGG to inter-island flights for residents and for tourists not headed to West Maui.

At the same time, there could be regular 717 flights to Kapalua, for West Maui tourism, which itself would require temporary terminal space and security facilities, and probably the relocation of car-rental and car-parking to Lahaina, with shuttle bus services.

It would be easy to turn this into a positive experience for tourists, especially if there was a by-law requiring hotels to provide JHM-hotel transfers during that period.

The funny thing is, I suspect that those tourists staying in Kaanapali and Kapalua would actually prefer this to the status quo.

Mind you, there is a long piece of asphalt next to the highwat at Puunene. Perhaps they could make it into an airport, and build a 6,800 and 6,500 foot pair of runways.........
 
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RE: Hawaiian Airlines Creates Maui Hub And Adds More S

Sat Jan 14, 2012 6:33 am

Quoting koruman (Reply 44):

At the same time, there could be regular 717 flights to Kapalua

And its 3000 foot runway...
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RE: Hawaiian Airlines Creates Maui Hub And Adds More S

Sat Jan 14, 2012 6:36 am

Quoting koruman (Reply 44):
At the same time, there could be regular 717 flights to Kapalua

Not on a 3000ft runway....maybe on 5/23 at OGG with reduced weight.

Could probably extend 2/20 at OGG in a matter of weeks, seeing as how JFK rebuilt 13R/31L in just a few months and that one's a tad bit longer with thick concrete. The extension area is already flat...just need a little grading and then slap on the asphalt. Puunene is a good alternative.  
 
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RE: Hawaiian Airlines Creates Maui Hub And Adds More S

Sat Jan 14, 2012 6:45 am

If it's necessary for the runway to replaced, the only thing preventing a parallel runway to the east are some unremarkable hangars. I think some of you are really over thinking this with elaborate schemes. When full replacement is necessary, they'll probably just build the new one next to the old one.
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RE: Hawaiian Airlines Creates Maui Hub And Adds More S

Sat Jan 14, 2012 6:47 am

@koruman: JHM's runway is 3000x1000 feet, and there are only 2 gates.
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RE: Hawaiian Airlines Creates Maui Hub And Adds More S

Sat Jan 14, 2012 6:51 am

And if you thought getting things done at OGG were difficult, try JHM.
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