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United787
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Caracas (CCS) - The Perfect South American Hub?

Fri Jan 13, 2012 4:48 pm

Let us imagine for a brief moment that Chavez is not in power and the government is somewhat normal...

I have been wondering if CCS would make the perfect South American Hub. What MIA is to the US, CCS could be for South America. The LHR, JFK, SFO, NRT, SIN, HKG, SYD of South America. My reasoning:

1. Geography. It sits at the very northern tip of South America (SA). Primarily, this location allows for fairly direct routing between much of the US and Canada and much of SA. BOG and LIM are too far east for connections to eastern SA and GRU, GIG, EZE and SCL are too far south for connections to northern Brazil, Colombia, Ecuador etc. MIA is too far north for much of the western US, especially if travelling to western and northern South America.

It is also located well for connections between Europe and SA, especially the western and northern halves of SA.

Although lower volume, Africa to Central America and Mexico as well as western and northern SA would be well connected. South Africa and much of the US and Europe could be directly connected via CCS.

2. Elevation. It sits near sea level as opposed to its biggest geographical contender, BOG, who's elevation can be prohibitive for long haul flights. UIO and MEX also sit very high and they don't have the best geographical location.

3. Economy. Of course a well located airport doesn't alone give you SIN status. Because of Venezuela's oil wealth, CCS could potentially support a large O&D, maybe not right now, but under a stable open political and economic system.

The biggest obstacle to this of course is our friend Hugo. But the country also does not have a strong airline. Again, without meddling from the government and a stable environment, VO or some other existing or newer airline could develop from the chaos, it has happened before. Some investment (DL/AF see below), new management and some newer planes.

With TA, CM and AV joining Star Alliance and LA and AM-Transportes Aereos Meridionais (Brazil)">JJ likely to be a part of OneWorld, Sky Team is left with AM & AR; one being too far north and west and too high and one being too far south. If I were SkyTeam, I would be planning for something in CCS...it could be quite the enviable hub.

I don't know much about the airport except that it has two conflicting runways. I assume a hub of this magnitude would need some updated and bigger terminals. If you ended up with enough international connecting traffic, you could create a terminal with an international transfer zone similar to SIN and other international airports.

I don't know how to insert this map into A-Net, but click on the link for a good idea of connectivity...

http://gc.kls2.com/cgi-bin/gc?PATH=C...STYLE=best&RANGE-COLOR=&MAP-STYLE=

[Edited 2012-01-13 09:04:22]
 
migair54
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RE: Caracas (CCS) - The Perfect South American Hub?

Fri Jan 13, 2012 5:23 pm

I think it could be an excellent hub, taking many pax from Copa and Panama hub, however I don´t know about the infrastructures to support that right now.

The airport is not so big and terminal and parkings...

But of course they can build some new things if necessary..

In my opinion it could work very good between USA and South America specially.

Miami right now has the problem of the Visas for central America and south americans.... before it was not necessary but now it´s a hell to get one..... and it´s only for transit...
 
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RE: Caracas (CCS) - The Perfect South American Hub?

Fri Jan 13, 2012 5:50 pm

I do also think it would be a great hube with a great potential value, and I'm sure that in the future it will have its chance. It won't be easy, because whenever they start building it, BOG and PTY will be new modern and expanded airports with strong carriers, but it's clear that CCS is underserved and could grow a lot. The city is smaller than BOG, but 6 million people is still a city that could become a perfect hub for a future venezuelan flag carrier.
 
ussherd
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RE: Caracas (CCS) - The Perfect South American Hub?

Fri Jan 13, 2012 5:51 pm

As you say, CCS is well located to serve as a hub to connect S America with N America, and Central America/South America with Europe. However, CCS airport would need upgrading and there isn't much space to fit in the additional runway that would probably be needed (paralell runway to 10/28 to allow simultaneous operation). Also, the Venezuelan authorities seem to think that they exist in order to be as obstructive as possible and would potentially be a pain tn the ass for any airline that tried to build a major hub in CCS.

Pie in the sky, I know, but I'd love to see LAN Venezuela set up, being fed by LAN Chile, LAN Argentina, LAN Peru, LAN Ecuador, etc and funneling all that traffic on to N America and Europe.
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RE: Caracas (CCS) - The Perfect South American Hub?

Fri Jan 13, 2012 6:02 pm

Quoting ussherd (Reply 3):
Pie in the sky, I know, but I'd love to see LAN Venezuela set up, being fed by LAN Chile, LAN Argentina, LAN Peru, LAN Ecuador, etc and funneling all that traffic on to N America and Europe.

I don't think CCS is that well located for flights from South America to Europe.

 
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cybergus
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RE: Caracas (CCS) - The Perfect South American Hub?

Fri Jan 13, 2012 6:05 pm

Hey United, great thread I must admit. Lets start putting some flavor in it.

Quoting United787 (Thread starter):
1. Geography. It sits at the very northern tip of South America (SA). Primarily, this location allows for fairly direct routing between much of the US and Canada and much of SA. BOG and LIM are too far east for connections to eastern SA and GRU, GIG, EZE and SCL are too far south for connections to northern Brazil, Colombia, Ecuador etc. MIA is too far north for much of the western US, especially if travelling to western and northern South America.

Yes, indeed Venezuela's position is to envy. Often called as the gateway to South America it is geographically equitative to several important points and continents. Caracas as the capital and the main airport of the country, is currently the top airport in passengers and traffic within the country. Located at the sea level it barely have restrictions on the aircraft performance. Nevertheless the lack of a decent infrastructure and a proper management has made CCS a non-top airport in the region. You just need to look at the inprovements made on LIM, BOG, and PTY to realize that our international airport is grounded in the 80's and it is not as functional as it should and could be.

Quoting United787 (Thread starter):
Elevation. It sits near sea level as opposed to its biggest geographical contender, BOG, who's elevation can be prohibitive for long haul flights. UIO and MEX also sit very high and they don't have the best geographical location.

As stated above, yes the Elevation is an important factor here. The restrictions of operations are barely minimal, only climate conditions and some energy issues have been the reason for this airport to re-route the traffic. These 2 conditions can be solved with the man intervation...they just need the money and a proper management.

Quoting United787 (Thread starter):
Economy. Of course a well located airport doesn't alone give you SIN status. Because of Venezuela's oil wealth, CCS could potentially support a large O&D, maybe not right now, but under a stable open political and economic system.

Delicate point here. Being an Oil country doesnt mean it is rich. Political issues, corruption and lack of civil thoughts have made Venezuela an unpolished emerald in the hemisphere. We could be the top country in S.America but sadly we are currently far from it. The current carriers that OP into CCS know that the traffic and capacity is there, but the unastable situation in Venezuela have keep them away to invest more and bet on the future of CCS as a hub airport.

Quoting United787 (Thread starter):
If I were SkyTeam, I would be planning for something in CCS...it could be quite the enviable hub.

Great thought, but the lack of money for new aircraft and all the regulations that the INAC (Venezuelan Aeronautical Administration) impose have basically made it imposible for the local carriers to grow. V0, S3 and R7 which are the main players in Venezuela battle their daily operations with a lot of obstacles and can barely support their current status, so they dont have any expansions or grow plans for the moment.

Quoting United787 (Thread starter):

I don't know much about the airport except that it has two conflicting runways. I assume a hub of this magnitude would need some updated and bigger terminals. If you ended up with enough international connecting traffic, you could create a terminal with an international transfer zone similar to SIN and other international airports.

Indeed enumarating all those:

New Terminals and infrastructure expansion.

A new runway.

Move all the cargo ops to another airport.

Pursue the current airlines to create a decent carrier that can serve CCS properly and relocate the second hand airlines to the other airports. For Example: Avior in BLA, Venezolana in MAR, Laser in PMV and Rutaca in PZO.

Lets keep this discussion alive and bring up the good ideas.

Cheers

Tavo
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United787
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RE: Caracas (CCS) - The Perfect South American Hub?

Fri Jan 13, 2012 6:25 pm

Quoting ussherd (Reply 3):
However, CCS airport would need upgrading and there isn't much space to fit in the additional runway that would probably be needed (paralell runway to 10/28 to allow simultaneous operation).

Just looking at Google earth and considering a major investment would be necessary, could you do this:

Phase 1 - Build a new runway a few hundred feet north of the existing 10L/28R, when complete you convert the existing 10/28 into the taxiway.

Phase 2 - Build new terminal and structured parking at the north side of the tarmac towards the existing 10/28 with a new relcocated Avenida La Armada under or through it like MDW, DFW or DTW...there is probably a better example...

Phase 3 - Demolish the old terminals and Avenida La Armada and build a new runway 10R/28L.

Some homes would have to be relocated like ORD, Mayor Daley is unemployed so...

Alternatively, if you move the 10L/28R far enough north, maybe you could fit in 10R/28L between the existing terminal and it???
 
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RE: Caracas (CCS) - The Perfect South American Hub?

Fri Jan 13, 2012 6:52 pm

There is lot that goes into become a large connecting point for air travel. The same could be said of a lot of other places so there is really not much point in discussing Caracas in particular.

Geography is great. The same could be said of Manaus, Belgrade, Managua, Damascus, Djibouti, Tashkent, Dhaka and so on. Caracas is in the same basket.
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RE: Caracas (CCS) - The Perfect South American Hub?

Fri Jan 13, 2012 7:04 pm

Quoting United787 (Thread starter):
What MIA is to the US, CCS could be for South America. The LHR, JFK, SFO, NRT, SIN, HKG, SYD of South America.

The comparison to the major gateway airports you list doesn't really hold up; apart from SIN & SYD, the other airports you list serve far larger metropolitan areas. Also, despite the "oil wealth" of Venezuela you cite, per capita GDP for the nations in which those major gateways lie is generally three to five times that of Venezuela -- and propensity to travel will be somewhat proportional to per capita GDP. Finally, those airports are not as dependent on connecting traffic -- with perhaps the exception of SIN -- as what you propose for CCS.

MIA's significance comes from the fact that it is the de facto center for business ties between the United States and Latin America/Caribbean nations. While CCS is obviously the key business center for Venezuela, it is not for the rest of South America. They don't even share a language with the largest South American country. And as hubs for travel between the U.S. and Spanish-speaking South America, PTY and BOG probably have better geographic locations.

Quoting United787 (Thread starter):
UIO and MEX also sit very high and they don't have the best geographical location.

Quito isn't the largest city/metro in Ecuador, and GYE does not have an altitude issue.
 
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RE: Caracas (CCS) - The Perfect South American Hub?

Fri Jan 13, 2012 7:25 pm

Quoting ScottB (Reply 9):
While CCS is obviously the key business center for Venezuela, it is not for the rest of South America. They don't even share a language with the largest South American country. And as hubs for travel between the U.S. and Spanish-speaking South America, PTY and BOG probably have better geographic locations.

Tthe original post appears to envision CCS as an optimal connecting location, rather than simply an O&D destination, such as GRU or EZE. CCS as a "copy" of PTY, but with a larger home market could, in some way, work in theory.

Of course, a hypothetical creation does not accomplish much in the real world. The reality is that the existing government in Venezuela is completely hostile to the development of its commercial aviation sector by private interests and foreign investment interests.

The issue is, of course, political. Political meddling plagues this industry, especially in Latin America. Argentina is another unfortunate example.

Nonetheless, in theory, CCS could be developed as a "copy" to PTY, handling banks of flights from important markets in North America that lack non-stop flights to South America, or limited existing connectivity, or vice versa. CM serves important markets in Brasil and deep South America, like CNF, BSB, MVD, COR, etc.

Of course, this business model is already being developed, by CM and others! By the time CCS is finally ready to receive foreign and domestic private investment, PTY, BOG and LIM will have doubled or tripled in size.
 
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RE: Caracas (CCS) - The Perfect South American Hub?

Fri Jan 13, 2012 8:14 pm

Frankly, I wouldn't call LIM a secondary market in South America. If anything, it is the only South American city that handles DAILY non-stop flights to the North American west coast (i.e. LAX & SFO).

That said, CCS's geographic location is just perfect for flights to Europe AND the Caribbean. My grandparents used to fly with VIASA on their trips to Europe back in the day.

[Edited 2012-01-13 17:30:02 by SA7700]
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United787
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RE: Caracas (CCS) - The Perfect South American Hub?

Fri Jan 13, 2012 8:20 pm

Quoting RAGAZZO777 (Reply 12):
Frankly, I wouldn't call LIM a secondary market in South America.

My apologies...you are correct. Maybe more like CUZ-CCS-JFK
 
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RE: Caracas (CCS) - The Perfect South American Hub?

Sat Jan 14, 2012 8:05 pm

Quoting United787 (Thread starter):
1. Geography. It sits at the very northern tip of South America (SA). Primarily, this location allows for fairly direct routing between much of the US and Canada and much of SA. BOG and LIM are too far east for connections to eastern SA and GRU, GIG, EZE and SCL are too far south for connections to northern Brazil, Colombia, Ecuador etc. MIA is too far north for much of the western US, especially if travelling to western and northern South America.

By the time you overfly CCS on the way to Brazil or the US, most people are asleep. Not a good time to have connections.

South American geography plays more against CCS's chance to become a hub than in its favor, IMO.
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RE: Caracas (CCS) - The Perfect South American Hub?

Sat Jan 14, 2012 8:18 pm

any medium range ac can handle deep south to ccs to just about anywhere in the US...it's not THAT far off a europe run to pickup feed especially from far western South America and lower Central America and even the carib. So it could handle both N/S and E/W easily...always a plus.

Let it have trwov...transit without visa to really stimulate growth.

open political climate in the country and cheap fuel could really trigger growth but business won't touch the area due to the current government being prone to nationalize anything and everything...no reason to invest.

while i like the location of ccs down on the water I wonder if an airport back up around the city could work better...sorta an iffy run from town....seems like most 'hubs' need at least about 30-40% local to really work. More space up there to start clean sheet.

South of the normal tropical system routes so that would not be a factor.

with the current political climate it is a non-starter.
 
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RE: Caracas (CCS) - The Perfect South American Hub?

Sat Jan 14, 2012 8:24 pm

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 12):
By the time you overfly CCS on the way to Brazil or the US, most people are asleep. Not a good time to have connections.

That should be able to be fixed by timing the routes differently.
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RE: Caracas (CCS) - The Perfect South American Hub?

Sat Jan 14, 2012 10:30 pm

Quoting FlyingHollander (Reply 14):
That should be able to be fixed by timing the routes differently.

Easier said than done - people like the current schedule so much, airlines park their planes all day to wait for the return flight.

With that said, maybe the few daylight services to MIA could stop in CCS. Could be an efficient use of aircraft, but you do run into potential legal restrictions. . ."not allowed to sell the next leg" or something.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
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RE: Caracas (CCS) - The Perfect South American Hub?

Sat Jan 14, 2012 10:52 pm

Quoting United787 (Thread starter):
MIA is too far north for much of the western US, especially if travelling to western and northern South America.

Hubs are located where there is infrastructure not where its geography is optimal. Caracas is north and east geographically but needs tons of investment and Venezuela doesn't even have an airline to call the airport home. Lan Venezuela could always beborn. Maybe TAP and Lufthansa could use it as Star hub to replace TAM in GRU and start "VeneLuft".

The perfect US east coast hub gepgraphically is Charlotte but Atlanta won the hub contest in the USA's south.
 
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RE: Caracas (CCS) - The Perfect South American Hub?

Sat Jan 14, 2012 11:07 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 16):
Lan Venezuela could always beborn.

As well as Copa Airlines Venezuela...The major priority would be to develop the Venezuelan domestic market; which has a lot of potential to grow in the future.

 
2travel2know2
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RE: Caracas (CCS) - The Perfect South American Hub?

Sun Jan 15, 2012 12:06 am

Quoting hiflyer (Reply 13):
seems like most 'hubs' need at least about 30-40% local to really work

Try telling that to CM's PTY.

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 17):
As well as Copa Airlines Venezuela...The major priority would be to develop the Venezuelan domestic market; which has a lot of potential to grow in the future.

CM faces major problems trying to add new Venezuelan frequencies/destinations. The only new frequencies Venezuela might allow CM now could be to PMV, if that country is still trying to promote the island as a leisure destination.
Remember why CM bought P5 in the 1st place, Colombian domestic routes weren't CM top priority by then.

If Venezuela had the airline (and fleet), the airport infrastructure, a more airline-friendly government... CCS could work well as a hub, except perhaps between Western South America and Central America + Western North America plus Eastern South America and Europe, In the meanwhile PTY and BOG are the perfect South American hubs for South America - Central America / North America / Caribbean traffic...
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RE: Caracas (CCS) - The Perfect South American Hub?

Sun Jan 15, 2012 12:53 am

Quoting United787 (Thread starter):
Let us imagine for a brief moment that Chavez is not in power and the government is somewhat normal...

With due respect, this is the most important single item to overcome on the agenda for Caracas Simón Bolívar airport ever to become a major hub.
Though geography is important, the political and economic environment is of far more consequence. Any discussion on this topic necessarily calls for an airline-friendly government (one that cares about airport infrastructure as well as enabling more foreign operators to fly into the country - both are notoriously lacking at present and the whole place is riddled with absurd regulations and checks that hinder this very activity). The rest is just academic discussion I regret to say.
 
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RE: Caracas (CCS) - The Perfect South American Hub?

Sun Jan 15, 2012 6:53 pm

Quoting cybergus (Reply 5):

Move all the cargo ops to another airport.

as biggest part of the cargo is moved on pax flights, so dont see really how this could work?? also CAO are already moving more and more into VLN where the infrastructure is much better. also the cargo facilitys in CCS are by far the worst in SouthAmerica......... shame on that!

Quoting RAGAZZO777 (Reply 10):
Frankly, I wouldn't call LIM a secondary market in South America. If anything, it is the only South American city that handles DAILY non-stop flights to the North American west coast (i.e. LAX & SFO).

really impressive how LIM developt the last years, also big bunch is coming from the hub ops... on the other side I have to say that the airport is not really good managed see what happend the last days due to the fog, no alternative plan on hand etc...
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SCL767
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RE: Caracas (CCS) - The Perfect South American Hub?

Sun Jan 15, 2012 6:57 pm

Quoting Avianca (Reply 20):

Quoting RAGAZZO777 (Reply 10):
Frankly, I wouldn't call LIM a secondary market in South America. If anything, it is the only South American city that handles DAILY non-stop flights to the North American west coast (i.e. LAX & SFO).

really impressive how LIM developt the last years, also big bunch is coming from the hub ops... on the other side I have to say that the airport is not really good managed see what happend the last days due to the fog, no alternative plan on hand etc...

Perhaps that issue will be mitigated in the future when the ILS III is operational by the end of the month.
 
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RE: Caracas (CCS) - The Perfect South American Hub?

Sun Jan 15, 2012 7:01 pm

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 21):
Perhaps that issue will be mitigated in the future when the ILS III is operational by the end of the month.

it will but Lima is a very foggy place even Jan is the month with the less fog, you need a alternative plan, at least move some immigration officers customs etc to the alternate airports.... shame on them that passengers had to wait upto 12 hours in the aircrafts in alternative airports like Pisco etc...
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Pe@rson
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RE: Caracas (CCS) - The Perfect South American Hub?

Sun Jan 15, 2012 7:04 pm

There is a significant hurdle: "Venezuela is the region's only other market [after Argentina which remains closed." Thus, unless there was a significant government policy change...

Source: http://www.airlineleader.com/this-mo...ion-industry-becomes-a-world-force



[Edited 2012-01-15 11:07:24]
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RAGAZZO777
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RE: Caracas (CCS) - The Perfect South American Hub?

Sun Jan 15, 2012 7:07 pm

Quoting Avianca (Reply 20):
on the other side I have to say that the airport is not really good managed see what happend the last days due to the fog, no alternative plan on hand etc...

I have to agree with you 100%. There's been a total discoordination between LAP and CORPAC. Also, they could have picked a more suitable time of the year, not December and January, to install the ILS III.
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Avianca
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RE: Caracas (CCS) - The Perfect South American Hub?

Sun Jan 15, 2012 7:07 pm

Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 23):
Think repliers are forgetting that "Venezuela is the region's only other market [after Argentia] which remains closed." Thus, unless there was a significant government policy change...
Quoting United787 (Thread starter):
Let us imagine for a brief moment that Chavez is not in power and the government is somewhat normal...

well the starter made it very clear...

Honestly I think CCS would be perfect located for a hub, but even their might come a government change later this year (also I dont think this will happens) it might taking years to get this great country back on track...
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SCL767
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RE: Caracas (CCS) - The Perfect South American Hub?

Sun Jan 15, 2012 7:09 pm

Quoting Avianca (Reply 22):

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 21):
Perhaps that issue will be mitigated in the future when the ILS III is operational by the end of the month.

it will but Lima is a very foggy place even Jan is the month with the less fog, you need a alternative plan, at least move some immigration officers customs etc to the alternate airports.... shame on them that passengers had to wait upto 12 hours in the aircrafts in alternative airports like Pisco etc...

But the problem is that those aren't international airports, (except AQP) and it would be difficult for those officers to even reach those airports under these circumstances.
 
Pe@rson
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RE: Caracas (CCS) - The Perfect South American Hub?

Sun Jan 15, 2012 7:10 pm

Quoting Avianca (Reply 25):

Honestly I think CCS would be perfect located for a hub, but even their might come a government change later this year (also I dont think this will happens) it might taking years to get this great country back on track...

That's good, then.

[Edited 2012-01-15 11:11:20]
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Avianca
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RE: Caracas (CCS) - The Perfect South American Hub?

Sun Jan 15, 2012 7:39 pm

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 26):
But the problem is that those aren't international airports, (except AQP) and it would be difficult for those officers to even reach those airports under these circumstances.

well pisco is located 2.5 to 3 hours from lima... dont see a big logistical problem to organize that...
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SCL767
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RE: Caracas (CCS) - The Perfect South American Hub?

Sun Jan 15, 2012 7:49 pm

Quoting Avianca (Reply 28):
well pisco is located 2.5 to 3 hours from lima... dont see a big logistical problem to organize that...

Some flights were diverted to CIX as well. LAN is taking care of its passengers and is in contact with LAP and the relevant authorities about the situation.
 
Avianca
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RE: Caracas (CCS) - The Perfect South American Hub?

Sun Jan 15, 2012 8:10 pm

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 29):
Some flights were diverted to CIX as well. LAN is taking care of its passengers and is in contact with LAP and the relevant authorities about the situation.

well you know that I am a LAN fan... but in that case I think they did not made a good work...
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SCL767
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RE: Caracas (CCS) - The Perfect South American Hub?

Sun Jan 15, 2012 8:31 pm

Quoting Avianca (Reply 30):
well you know that I am a LAN fan... but in that case I think they did not made a good work...

It's more of an internal issue with the local authorities in Perú. LAN is investing in Perú by developing new RNP approaches at different airports in Perú, including LIM, with GE Aviation Services.
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DesertAir
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RE: Caracas (CCS) - The Perfect South American Hub?

Sun Jan 15, 2012 8:34 pm

It seems to me that the success of COPA and their Hub of the Americas in Panamá has all of the ingredients that Caracas lacks. A strong national airline, modern infrastructure and a stable political situation.
 
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United787
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RE: Caracas (CCS) - The Perfect South American Hub?

Sun Jan 15, 2012 10:24 pm

Quoting civilav (Reply 19):

With due respect, this is the most important single item to overcome on the agenda for Caracas Simón Bolívar airport ever to become a major hub.
Though geography is important, the political and economic environment is of far more consequence. Any discussion on this topic necessarily calls for an airline-friendly government (one that cares about airport infrastructure as well as enabling more foreign operators to fly into the country - both are notoriously lacking at present and the whole place is riddled with absurd regulations and checks that hinder this very activity). The rest is just academic discussion I regret to say.

I agree that the political situation is the biggest obstacle...but it is also the one thing that can change very quickly. You can't change a city's geographical position or it's elevation. You also can't create a large oil reserve. You can create a stable political situation, a strong "national" airline and modern airport infrastructure but they just need time and a change at the top to create the environment.
 
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RE: Caracas (CCS) - The Perfect South American Hub?

Mon Jan 16, 2012 12:42 am

I have carefully read all the above contributions and I agreed that their contenders have already surpassed CCS in many ways.
We cannot establish that CCS would be the perfect regional hub ignoring what happens in the surrounding environment.
For example, the boom experienced at PTY is by far better than any possible technical attempt at CCS.
The following route map is rather short to clarify the level of development that PTY handles nowadays.



Formerly, it was discussed that CCS could build a second airstrip for the extra development in their operations. PTY is currently studying the possibility of building a third runway, along with the expansion of a new stage related to the terminal building and placed on the southbound. In the coming days, the north pier will be opened.
One weekly flight on AA DFW-CCS and the launch of flights to Damascus are not any parameters to assume that CCS might experience CCS any progress on the development of its commercial aviation.
I give credit to the existence of TP LIS-CCS as neither Ecuador, Peru, Colombia nor Central America have no regular services of the Portuguese airline.
My final conclusion is that it's too late to assume that CCS would be the perfect South American hub.

Regards.
"Goin' up to the spirit in the sky"
 
SCL767
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RE: Caracas (CCS) - The Perfect South American Hub?

Mon Jan 16, 2012 2:20 am

Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 34):
The following route map is rather short to clarify the level of development that PTY handles nowadays.

What about the LIM and BOG hubs?

Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 34):
I give credit to the existence of TP LIS-CCS as neither Ecuador, Peru, Colombia nor Central America have no regular services of the Portuguese airline.
TP operates into CCS due to VFR traffic between the two countries. TP links CCS with FNC, LIS, and OPO.

TP currently operates:
CCS-FNC-LIS weekly
CCS-LIS weekly
CCS-OPO weekly

During the Summer, TP operates:
CCS-FNC-LIS 3x weekly
CCS-LIS 2x weekly
CCS-OPO weekly


LIMA:


[Edited 2012-01-15 19:09:37]
 
SJOtoLIR
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RE: Caracas (CCS) - The Perfect South American Hub?

Mon Jan 16, 2012 2:51 am

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 35):
What about the LIM and BOG hubs?


I don't have any doubt concerning to their planning improvements.
However, LIM might be slightly far from being the proposed key hub due to its geographical location in the middle of South America.
On the other hand, just looking the route map posted in reply 34, BOG is not getting many non-stop services as compared with the current level of service supplied at PTY.




.

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 35):
TP operates into CCS due to VFR traffic between the two countries. TP links CCS with FNC, LIS, and OPO.

TP currently operates:
CCS-FNC-LIS weekly
CCS-LIS weekly
CCS-OPO weekly



Few weekly operations in order to promote CCS as the potential key transferring center for South America.
As you pointed out above, these flights are rather justified due to the VFR traffic.

Regards.
"Goin' up to the spirit in the sky"
 
PPVRA
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RE: Caracas (CCS) - The Perfect South American Hub?

Mon Jan 16, 2012 2:58 am

Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 34):
My final conclusion is that it's too late to assume that CCS would be the perfect South American hub.

Tell you what CCS can do and very well. . . be what Miami is for the Caribbean, but for South America. Perhaps even for Europe, Africa and the Middle East.


trivia: did you know that the distance between DXB-MIA is the exact same distance as DXB-CCS? At least according to great circle mapper. . .
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SJOtoLIR
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RE: Caracas (CCS) - The Perfect South American Hub?

Mon Jan 16, 2012 3:29 am

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 37):
Perhaps even for Europe, Africa and the Middle East.


Most of the South American countries already have healthy non-stop services to Europe. There's no need for any layover at CCS.
Related to the traffic coming from Africa and the Middle East, perhaps only deep South America is suitable to operate these flights sustainably. Once again, there's no need for any stopover at CCS regarding EK DUB-GRU, JJ GRU-JNB, SA JNB-GRU, MH EZE-CPT-KUL and so forth.

Regards.
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SCL767
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RE: Caracas (CCS) - The Perfect South American Hub?

Mon Jan 16, 2012 3:45 am

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 35):
LIMA:

Forgot to add ATL-LIM.

Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 38):
Once again, there's no need for any stopover at CCS regarding EK DUB-GRU, JJ GRU-JNB, SA JNB-GRU, MH EZE-CPT-KUL and so forth.

EK operates DXB-GRU and DXB-GIG-EZE, also QR operates DOH-GRU-EZE. TAM does not operate GRU-JNB and MH will soon discontinue the KUL-CPT-EZE route.
 
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RE: Caracas (CCS) - The Perfect South American Hub?

Mon Jan 16, 2012 3:48 am

Neither BOG nor CCS are much different than PTY in geographical location. The most under served cities with high demand are located in Northern Brazil.

Perhaps a better new hub location would be Belem, Sao Luis or Fortaleza. From those locations, a lot of large cities could have much better routing for pax coming from the northern hemisphere than they do now. Now you go all the way down south to GRU first, connect, and then go back north for hours, like a yoyo.
 
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RE: Caracas (CCS) - The Perfect South American Hub?

Mon Jan 16, 2012 5:45 pm

Quoting robffm2 (Reply 4):
I don't think CCS is that well located for flights from South America to Europe.
Quoting tommytoyz (Reply 40):
Perhaps a better new hub location would be Belem, Sao Luis or Fortaleza. From those locations, a lot of large cities could have much better routing for pax coming from the northern hemisphere than they do now. Now you go all the way down south to GRU first, connect, and then go back north for hours, like a yoyo.
Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 38):
Most of the South American countries already have healthy non-stop services to Europe. There's no need for any layover at CCS

Well, i have a different view about how South America is serviced to Europe. It's a fact that only major cities (GIG and GRU) and the capitals got some level of service to Europe. Other markets have in general 1 daily flight to Europe and thanks to TP.
Same applies when we think about North America-South America.

In my view a point in the Caribbean as well as in Northeast Brazil (FOR or NAT) could become a hub for North America-South America traffic and Europe-South America.
But this could become interesting only if they are able to connect not only MIA or MAD, but more markets.
I believe a 752 fleet can be used for some NAT-Italy/Spain/Portugal, and the 738/739/320/319/321 can be used for a Caribbean hub connecting from Canada to Argentina/Chile.
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PPVRA
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RE: Caracas (CCS) - The Perfect South American Hub?

Mon Jan 16, 2012 6:03 pm

Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 38):

I meant as a hub for people going to the Caribbean.
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PAB
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RE: Caracas (CCS) - The Perfect South American Hub?

Tue Jan 17, 2012 1:20 am

Brazil's Gol kinda uses CCS as a doorway to the Caribbean. Its Varig-branded services make GRU-CCS-AUA and GRU-CCS-PUJ. Since they are a 737s-only operator, they could easily launch other destinations in the region via a Venezuelan hub.
 
SJOtoLIR
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RE: Caracas (CCS) - The Perfect South American Hub?

Tue Jan 17, 2012 4:17 am

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 42):
I meant as a hub for people going to the Caribbean.


In that case, my former point is even valid taking into account the current transferring center to the Caribbean through Panama City:

PTY-NAS 6x weekly
PTY-HAV 35x weekly
PTY-KIN 2x weekly
PTY-MBJ 2x weekly
PTY-PAP 2x weekly
PTY-SDQ 36x weekly
PTY-STI 7x weekly
PTY-PUJ 24x weekly
PTY-SJU 14x weekly
PTY-POS 7x weekly
PTY-ADZ 5x weekly
PTY-SXM 3x weekly
PTY-AUA 7x weekly
PTY-CUR 2x weekly [DAE apparently isn't flying that route anymore]

More than 150 weekly flights to the Caribbean and allowing in-transit passengers coming Europe, Central America, North America and South America. A very well served market !
I didn't mention PTY-CUN, PTY-CTG and PTY-BAQ.




.

Quoting PAB (Reply 43):
Its Varig-branded services make GRU-CCS-AUA and GRU-CCS-PUJ. Since they are a 737s-only operator, they could easily launch other destinations in the region via a Venezuelan hub.


Very limited weekly frequencies for the time being:

G3 GRU-CCS-AUA 2x weekly
G3 GRU-CCS-PUJ 5x weekly

BOG, LIM and especially PTY are already taking advantage in this market.
As a result, I still don't visualize if is there any room for CCS as a potential transferring center.

Regards.
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CO777DAL
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RE: Caracas (CCS) - The Perfect South American Hub?

Tue Jan 17, 2012 6:27 am

CCS is not that far from POS. Might as well be POS as the hub. They could offer easy connections to all over the Caribbean from South America. They have the infrastructure, terminal, good airline, economy, stable government, and Europeans go to Tobago for vacation. If they could stop all the bacchanal and get someone good to run BW, they could build a massive hub at POS. They could also take a page from EK and use fuel subsidy to help grown the hub.
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RE: Caracas (CCS) - The Perfect South American Hub?

Tue Jan 17, 2012 1:30 pm

Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 34):
The following route map is rather short to clarify the level of development that PTY handles nowadays.

Forgot ATL and HEL (well it's a charter but the Tourist Authority is trying to turn it into a scheduled once per week flight).

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 41):
I believe a 752 fleet can be used for some NAT-Italy/Spain/Portugal, and the 738/739/320/319/321 can be used for a Caribbean hub connecting from Canada to Argentina/Chile.

Sorry to disappoint you but none of those air-crafts has range to fly FOR-MIA/NYC/YYZ.

Quoting CO777DAL (Reply 45):
CCS is not that far from POS. Might as well be POS as the hub. They could offer easy connections to all over the Caribbean from South America. They have the infrastructure, terminal, good airline, economy, stable government, and Europeans go to Tobago for vacation. If they could stop all the bacchanal and get someone good to run BW, they could build a massive hub at POS. They could also take a page from EK and use fuel subsidy to help grown the hub.

It's not only the management bacchanal BW has, the airline has some apprehension to fly to exotic unfamiliar destinations (for Trinis/BW that means Latinamerican except CCS). Add to that BW management/owners believe the airline is there to mostly fly passengers between POS/GEO/KIN and MIA/FLL/JFK/YYZ.
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Avianca
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RE: Caracas (CCS) - The Perfect South American Hub?

Tue Jan 17, 2012 7:19 pm

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 31):
It's more of an internal issue with the local authorities in Per
[quote=PAB,reply=43]Brazil's Gol kinda uses CCS as a doorway to the Caribbean. Its Varig-branded services make GRU-CCS-AUA and GRU-CCS-PUJ. Since they are a 737s-only operator, they could easily launch other destinations in the region via a Venezuelan hub.

do they have full 5 freedom out of CCS?
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cybergus
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RE: Caracas (CCS) - The Perfect South American Hub?

Tue Jan 17, 2012 10:33 pm

Quoting Avianca (Reply 47):
do they have full 5 freedom out of CCS?

Yes they do.
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SJOtoLIR
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RE: Caracas (CCS) - The Perfect South American Hub?

Wed Jan 18, 2012 1:36 am

Quoting CO777DAL (Reply 45):
CCS is not that far from POS. Might as well be POS as the hub


POS has many advantages over CCS, in terms of the connectivity to the rest of the Caribbean.




.

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 46):
Forgot ATL and HEL (well it's a charter but the Tourist Authority is trying to turn it into a scheduled once per week flight).


FRA wasn't also mentioned because it isn't served as non-stop flight.
DE [FRA-SDQ-PTY] 1x weekly will be seasonally upgraded to 2x weekly from June 25th till October 22nd.


Regards.
"Goin' up to the spirit in the sky"