76er
Topic Author
Posts: 446
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2007 8:04 pm

AF / KL Restructuring

Sat Jan 14, 2012 10:23 am

I'd like to continue the discussion about AFKL restructuring, after the previous thread was closed due to ongoing bickering.

It will we interesting what measures both companies will take in the short and long term to stem further losses and/or improve profitabiliy.

KL's plans seem to be pretty straightforward, with no direct fulltime job losses or paycuts/freezes. The reduction in workforce will be achieved by regular attrition and not renewing temporary contracts. Fleet simplification will be done by accellerating MD11 retirements, as the A333's begin to roll in. That's pretty much it for the short to medium term. In the medium to long run KL will seek concessions from the unions when it comes to work rules. A lot can be gained on longhaul sectors, where KL-crew has a disproportionate amount of time off after returning to base compared to the likes of LH and BA. On short haul, KL FA's are presently not allowed to fly more than three sectors a day, compared to four for pilots. KL would probably prefer the 737 crews to fully adapt the Cityhopper (E-jet and Fokker) workrules, allowing even more productivity. Although that may prove to be a bridge to far at this point.

Anyone any idea what the plans are at AF?
 
mauriceb
Posts: 2150
Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2004 2:50 am

RE: AF / KL Restructuring

Sat Jan 14, 2012 1:06 pm

Don't know what the AF plans are, but i could imagine that the remaining 7474 and A340's might leave the fleet sooner after all. I think a lot depends on how the new regional bases turn out to be profitable.. but i wouldn't be suprised if they will shut down most of the Orly services so they can reduce costs and focus on CDG.

Does anyone know how Cityjet is doing? wouldnt be suprised if they cut one or more of the regional airlines and concentrate at one, again to cut costs..

As for KLM, i understand that the first MD-11 will leave the fleet sooner than 2016, as indeed the A330-300's start rolling in... first frame to be ''replaced'' will be the PH-KCH, Ana Pavlova.. don't know the exact date though.

The F70's are due to leave the fleet in 2016, but again i wouldn't be suprised to see an order very soon, without one on one replacement. A big issue for both airlines in utilization of the current fleet.
 
SR4ever
Posts: 388
Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2010 6:19 pm

RE: AF / KL Restructuring

Sat Jan 14, 2012 1:19 pm

AF and KL have recently stated hat they need to move more upmarket.

But in view of other recent comments, I suspect the move is only gonna apply to longhaul operations, which in my view is a big mistake...
 
sofianec
Posts: 99
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 6:39 am

RE: AF / KL Restructuring

Sat Jan 14, 2012 1:34 pm

Quoting SR4ever (Reply 2):
But in view of other recent comments, I suspect the move is only gonna apply to longhaul operations, which in my view is a big mistake...

Exactly my view. Focusing too much on long-haul is okay however is also heavily dependant on feed into hubs. They need to fix short-haul pronto. Flying from secondary cities direct is a great idea but an expensive one. KLM is well positioned, has always been - their AMS operation is a well-oiled machine. CDG on the other hand is a mixed bad.

---
A350WARP
 
SR4ever
Posts: 388
Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2010 6:19 pm

RE: AF / KL Restructuring

Sat Jan 14, 2012 1:49 pm

Right, but both airlines need to enhance their shorthaul product, not downgrade it to cut a few euros per passanger and please the unions (AF indeeds reportedly eyes trading more flexible working conditions with less on-board staff with lower service standards).
 
Amsterdam
Posts: 169
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2011 12:52 am

RE: AF / KL Restructuring

Sat Jan 14, 2012 2:29 pm

AF won't become stronger if they don't change their mentality.
The main problem of the French is their mentality, everything else comes after that.
But the hardest thing to change is also mentality.

As the people from Rotterdam say: No words, but deeds.
They have to show it, before anyone will believe it.
 
VictorKilo
Posts: 170
Joined: Wed Jul 05, 2006 7:39 am

RE: AF / KL Restructuring

Sat Jan 14, 2012 3:03 pm

What I think is going to be interesting is the role of Delta in the restructured network. DL's diverse, lower-cost fleet could be used to backfill TATL capacity lost due to AF/KL choosing to park the AF 744, AF 340, and/or KL M11 fleets. This is a knob to turn to optimize joint venture profitability, and DL could benefit.

Also, I could see some sort of a deal/joint venture with TN, such that passengers flying CDG-PPT fly CDG-NRT/LAX on AF and then NRT/LAX-PPT on TN.
 
anstar
Posts: 2862
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2003 3:49 am

RE: AF / KL Restructuring

Sat Jan 14, 2012 6:10 pm

Quoting SR4ever (Reply 4):
Right, but both airlines need to enhance their shorthaul product, not downgrade it to cut a few euros per passanger and please the unions

As a AMS-LON regular I much prefer KL over BA on this route. Both off a drink and snack service (ie crisps or biscuit) but the KL planes seems fresher and more modern with friendlier staff.
 
B747forever
Posts: 12855
Joined: Mon May 21, 2007 9:50 pm

RE: AF / KL Restructuring

Sat Jan 14, 2012 6:36 pm

Quoting 76er (Thread starter):
On short haul, KL FA's are presently not allowed to fly more than three sectors a day, compared to four for pilots.

Why do they have this seemingly strange rule? If anything it should be the other way around.
Work Hard, Fly Right
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 15214
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

RE: AF / KL Restructuring

Sat Jan 14, 2012 6:46 pm

Quoting SR4ever (Reply 4):
Right, but both airlines need to enhance their shorthaul product, not downgrade it to cut a few euros per passanger and please the unions

That's a dead end since passengers will not pay for it. Just look across the pond to see where this is headed....

Quoting VictorKilo (Reply 6):
DL's diverse, lower-cost fleet could be used to backfill TATL capacity lost due to AF/KL

AF/KL's costs are tough--if they can't sustain markets like SEA/PHL/EWR/ORD year round but DL can (some of them), it's a good indication that AF/KL's costs are uncompetitive. If they're uncompetitive across the Atlantic, you can bet they're uncompetitive Eastbound as well, compared to major threats from the Gulf, Southeast Asia, and TK.

Quoting SR4ever (Reply 2):
AF and KL have recently stated hat they need to move more upmarket.

That's not a bad idea, whilst simultaneously reducing unit costs. AF/KL's front cabin products really are no longer competitive with just about anyone. And in the back, I'm afraid 10 across in a 777 is going to be the norm, and just the beginning.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
AOMlover
Posts: 1191
Joined: Sun Jul 22, 2001 6:03 pm

RE: AF / KL Restructuring

Sat Jan 14, 2012 7:19 pm

Quoting Amsterdam (Reply 5):
The main problem of the French is their mentality, everything else comes after that.

Care to elaborate ? I'd love to better understand the point you're trying to make.
 
nipoel123
Posts: 236
Joined: Thu Jan 13, 2011 6:23 am

RE: AF / KL Restructuring

Sat Jan 14, 2012 7:30 pm

Quoting AOMlover (Reply 10):
Care to elaborate ? I'd love to better understand the point you're trying to make.

Dutch prejudice against the french. But as they seem to have the highest number of strikes in Europe, I guess there is a sense of truth in there...
one mile of road leads to nowhere, one mile of runway leads to anywhere
 
klmcedric
Posts: 696
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2003 11:19 pm

RE: AF / KL Restructuring

Sat Jan 14, 2012 8:55 pm

Quoting 76er (Thread starter):
In the medium to long run KL will seek concessions from the unions when it comes to work rules. A lot can be gained on longhaul sectors, where KL-crew has a disproportionate amount of time off after returning to base compared to the likes of LH and BA.

May I ask what is your source for this info?

Do yo know about a referendum held by KLM amongst cabin crew many years ago in which they had to choose between
money or time-off. They chose the latter. The results today are indeed that KLM crews have more time-off after each flight,
but the paycheck is also significantly less compared to BA an LH.
 
anstar
Posts: 2862
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2003 3:49 am

RE: AF / KL Restructuring

Sat Jan 14, 2012 9:13 pm

Quoting klmcedric (Reply 12):
but the paycheck is also significantly less compared to BA an LH.

But if you compare the new BA contract then KLM employees receive alot more $$$$ (and time off!)
 
Nomik
Posts: 52
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2011 8:00 am

RE: AF / KL Restructuring

Sat Jan 14, 2012 9:26 pm

Do AF and KL share the same objectives?
They must become one fully integrated company under one brand.
This marriage reminds me of SR's "Hunter Strategy" and the parallels are striking in how to sink an airline.
I can not fathom why KL still fly the MD-11 as It is a gas-guzzler and the the trickiest to land.
When will they axe the treacherous MD-11 for good?
 
mauriceb
Posts: 2150
Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2004 2:50 am

RE: AF / KL Restructuring

Sat Jan 14, 2012 9:45 pm

Quoting Nomik (Reply 14):
I can not fathom why KL still fly the MD-11 as It is a gas-guzzler and the the trickiest to land.
When will they axe the treacherous MD-11 for good?

Good point, but they worked fine for the premium 4 to 10 hours flights... they will be replaced from 2016 (787-9), but there are strong indications that the first one will leave the fleet soon (this year) around march/april, PH-KCH..

[Edited 2012-01-14 13:47:29]

After some research from reliable sources i can tell that both KCH and KCI will most probably leave the fleet in 2012, and will be scrapped.. The MD-11 will be gone in 2014.

There are also rumours that KL will get some AF A330's untill the 787 arrives, but those rumours are... just rumours, the news about the MD-11 is a bit more reliable, although i cant 100% confirm.


[Edited 2012-01-14 23:10:23 by SA7700]
 
raptors
Posts: 162
Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2005 3:30 am

RE: AF / KL Restructuring

Sat Jan 14, 2012 10:29 pm

I have heard that KLM will retire two MD-11's from the summer schedule, these will be scrapped as most parts have to be sourced from FedEX who hold a majority of the spares available and they don't come cheap. Two others will be parked and will be available as standby aircraft, again from the summer schedule. This will leaves six aircraft in the schedule and is obviously the beggining of the end for these lovely birds.

Quoting Nomik (Reply 14):
I can not fathom why KL still fly the MD-11 as It is a gas-guzzler and the the trickiest to land.
When will they axe the treacherous MD-11 for good?

The reason they still operate the MD-11 is because the fuel economy isn't bad (although not as good as the more modern aircraft granted) but the leasing company cannot get rid of them so the lease payments for them are rock bottom thus making it worth while for KLM to carry on with them for as long as they have.

Quoting Nomik (Reply 14):

Do AF and KL share the same objectives?
They must become one fully integrated company under one brand.

Not going to happen any time soon as the French are unlikely to give up on AIRFRANCE and KLM is a strong brand in it's own right. In fact things work out pretty well as the two carriers are opposite and meeting in the middle allows for a good relationship............on the whole.

Quoting SR4ever (Reply 4):

Right, but both airlines need to enhance their shorthaul product, not downgrade it to cut a few euros per passanger and please the unions (AF indeeds reportedly eyes trading more flexible working conditions with less on-board staff with lower service standards).


This is already taking shape, there have been many improvements in the last couple of years including KLM returning to a more spacious short haul Business Class product which includes keeping the middle seat free, this was not the case a couple of years ago.

AIRFRANCE has also upgraded it's Business Class product and offers a class in between Business and Economy which is doing quite well by all accounts. Although these things take time it is certainly a step in the right direction.
SSC/111/146/AR8/AT7/AN3/AB4/6/310/319/20/21/332/3/343/6/703/722/732-9/74L/2/4/F/752/3/772/3/W/E170/190/CR7/9
 
mozart
Posts: 2017
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 12:21 am

RE: AF / KL Restructuring

Sat Jan 14, 2012 10:56 pm

Quoting SR4ever (Reply 4):
(AF indeeds reportedly eyes trading more flexible working conditions with less on-board staff with lower service standards

How can service standards be lowered on AF's domestic, European and longhaul Eco flights? They already are VERY low.

Quoting AOMlover (Reply 10):
Care to elaborate ? I'd love to better understand the point you're trying to make.

1. Realize that they are no longer an elite job
2. Put customers' interests before their own comfort
3. Realize that their attitude is an impediment to the company's well being
4. Work a bit more and - much more important - say bye bye to some absurd clauses in labour agreements

Quoting raptors (Reply 17):
AIRFRANCE has also upgraded it's Business Class product

Really? When? What have they done?

If it is their "new" longhaul business class introduced last year then let me assure that it is a mere variation of the old angled seat that comes in a 2-3-2 configuration on 777s and 2-2-2 on A330/A340. Bigger screen but less comfortable. The rest hasn't changed.

In other news AFKL announces that its loss for 2011 will exceed EUR 500 MM. Source is an article in Les Echos in France (you can find it on their website)
 
SASMD82
Posts: 616
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2007 12:44 am

RE: AF / KL Restructuring

Sat Jan 14, 2012 11:40 pm

Quoting nipoel123 (Reply 11):
But as they seem to have the highest number of strikes in Europe

Based on what? I think Italians and Greeks are on top of those list. I do not have any numbers but as I have many French relatives, the French do better than Spanish, Greek, Italian e.g.

Quoting Amsterdam (Reply 5):
The main problem of the French is their mentality

What is French mentality? Customer Service? This is stigmatising subjective nonsense!! I think it is more an attitude like Mozart perfectly describes in reply 18: realise it is a job like any others (no elite), try to work like the employees of - let's say - SQ, MH e.g. and abandon those amazing benefits in their labour agreements which).

Quoting mauriceb (Reply 15):
they will be replaced from 2016 (787-9

I thought that the A333 will be used to replace four MD-11s?

Quoting mozart (Reply 18):
1. Realize that they are no longer an elite job
2. Put customers' interests before their own comfort
3. Realize that their attitude is an impediment to the company's well being
4. Work a bit more and - much more important - say bye bye to some absurd clauses in labour agreements

You got it right!
 
SR4ever
Posts: 388
Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2010 6:19 pm

RE: AF / KL Restructuring

Sun Jan 15, 2012 12:14 am

Quoting raptors (Reply 17):
This is already taking shape, there have been many improvements in the last couple of years including KLM returning to a more spacious short haul Business Class product which includes keeping the middle seat free, this was not the case a couple of years ago.

AIRFRANCE has also upgraded it's Business Class product and offers a class in between Business and Economy which is doing quite well by all accounts. Although these things take time it is certainly a step in the right direction.

KL has indeed upgrade its Europe Select product in the right way, but AF has unfortunately done the opposite. While one can certainly welcome the introduction of Premum Eco, service standards in Premium Affaires have declined, and are now thos of a Y+ rather than a genuine C Class, not cheap though.

20 yrs ago, AF had a very high-flying product in Le Club class on European flights...

Quoting mozart (Reply 18):
How can service standards be lowered on AF's domestic, European and longhaul Eco flights? They already are VERY low.
Quoting Pihero (Reply 19):
I think that a minimum of references is needed here, and not just hearsay from the girlfriend of the brother-in-law of the uncle of Greta's husband.
That sentence is called "a twaddle", I think.

Not a twaddle, it s been in the press, sadly...


As far as French mentality is concerned, I don't see any problem here. Defunct Air Littoral and TAT would provide a pretty good service, with a "hands-on" minded staff.
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 15214
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

RE: AF / KL Restructuring

Sun Jan 15, 2012 12:20 am

Quoting SASMD82 (Reply 20):
Quoting mozart (Reply 18):
1. Realize that they are no longer an elite job
2. Put customers' interests before their own comfort
3. Realize that their attitude is an impediment to the company's well being
4. Work a bit more and - much more important - say bye bye to some absurd clauses in labour agreements

You got it right!

And as soon as we're done with that, we'll break for coffee and then fix the Middle East quickly  
Quoting SR4ever (Reply 21):
20 yrs ago, AF had a very high-flying product in Le Club class on European flights...

20 years ago it cost an arm and a leg to hop around Europe, and then half that to continue across the Atlantic.

Quoting mozart (Reply 18):
How can service standards be lowered on AF's domestic, European and longhaul Eco flights? They already are VERY low.

Comment dit-on "buy on board"?
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
anstar
Posts: 2862
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2003 3:49 am

RE: AF / KL Restructuring

Sun Jan 15, 2012 8:20 am

Quoting Nomik (Reply 14):
I can not fathom why KL still fly the MD-11 as It is a gas-guzzler and the the trickiest to land.
When will they axe the treacherous MD-11 for good?

Given the MD fleet is not being fully utilised - I'd say they should (if they really had the desire) be able to retire them by the end of 2012 - esp given the newer deliveries this year and also the 747 fleet not being fully utilised to its max potential.
 
goldorak
Posts: 1353
Joined: Sat Sep 09, 2006 5:29 am

RE: AF / KL Restructuring

Sun Jan 15, 2012 9:38 am

Quoting mauriceb (Reply 1):
but i wouldn't be suprised if they will shut down most of the Orly services so they can reduce costs and focus on CDG

There is no way AF will shut down operations at ORY. That would be a HUGE mistake.
 
lexer
Posts: 135
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2005 10:21 pm

RE: AF / KL Restructuring

Sun Jan 15, 2012 9:53 am

Quoting goldorak (Reply 22):
There is no way AF will shut down operations at ORY. That would be a HUGE mistake.

Why?
 
nantoine
Posts: 28
Joined: Fri Apr 16, 2004 2:36 pm

RE: AF / KL Restructuring

Sun Jan 15, 2012 10:20 am

Quoting Amsterdam (Reply 5):
The main problem of the French is their mentality, everything else comes after that.

Wow, talk about painting with a broad brush.
I wonder if the large number of Dutch happily living in southern France agree with you?

No-one would tolerate this kind of comment for another country... yet it has somehow become socially acceptable (even fashionable?) to bash on the French.

Please focus on Air France, and not "the French".
 
SR4ever
Posts: 388
Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2010 6:19 pm

RE: AF / KL Restructuring

Sun Jan 15, 2012 10:57 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 20):
Quoting SR4ever (Reply 21):
20 yrs ago, AF had a very high-flying product in Le Club class on European flights...

20 years ago it cost an arm and a leg to hop around Europe, and then half that to continue across the Atlantic.

No, AF Business class on European flights was cheaper than it is now, and of better content.
 
AirGAbon
Posts: 676
Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2003 10:37 pm

RE: AF / KL Restructuring

Sun Jan 15, 2012 11:17 am

Quoting nantoine (Reply 24):
Wow, talk about painting with a broad brush.
I wonder if the large number of Dutch happily living in southern France agree with you?

No-one would tolerate this kind of comment for another country... yet it has somehow become socially acceptable (even fashionable?) to bash on the French.

Please focus on Air France, and not "the French".

You are 100% right! If the same would have been said about Indian "mentality" or any other country, it would have been quickly deleted.

I know that many people like to compare France with Soviet Union and France = strikes but again, look at the major top French companies, if they were always on strike I don't think there would be among the leader in the world in their sectors.

In fact in France, it is not the private which is striking, it is mostly the unions of the public sectors in particular trains and urban transports in Paris (public company) and national education. That's why it has a huge impact and people feel it strongly.

Otherwise, never heard of Carrefour, L'Oreal, LVMH, Sanofi-Aventis or Total on strike.

Air France, at a lesser extent, I agree, has a particular situation, with some strong pilots unions (old times when the airline was still public 20 years ago). So there is still this existing MINORITY of pilots, cabin crews and employees who are "hard" to move and always say "no". But again it is a minority.

Knowing many young crew (both pilots and cabin crew), I promise you that they are very motivated to do their job well, proud when they receive congratulations from passengers for the service, and ready to work hard to achieve good results for the global image of the company and the financial results. Nobody is again more productivity to save the situation.

And all, which is normal, are fluent in English, and many times in a third language for the cabin crews, so there is NO discrimination between French and "foreign" passengers! This is a urban legend! As an airline based on hub model at CDG, all know very well that more than of 50% of the clients are foreigners.
 
Nomik
Posts: 52
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2011 8:00 am

RE: AF / KL Restructuring

Sun Jan 15, 2012 11:33 am

Bring back good old ATLAS and KSSU!
 
Nomik
Posts: 52
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2011 8:00 am

RE: AF / KL Restructuring

Sun Jan 15, 2012 11:36 am

AF will launch an HV equivalent and merge budget ops with KL into one brand for European routes.
 
User avatar
shamrock604
Posts: 2087
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2007 11:27 pm

RE: AF / KL Restructuring

Sun Jan 15, 2012 2:23 pm

Quoting AirGabon (Reply 26):

Agree completely. In fact, even at AF, industrial action has been rare over the last few years - it's usually ATC, ground handlers, security and other service providers at CDG who do strike!
 
76er
Topic Author
Posts: 446
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2007 8:04 pm

RE: AF / KL Restructuring

Sun Jan 15, 2012 3:33 pm

Quoting klmcedric (Reply 12):


Quote:

Quoting 76er (Thread starter):

In the medium to long run KL will seek concessions from the unions when it comes to work rules. A lot can be gained on longhaul sectors, where KL-crew has a disproportionate amount of time off after returning to base compared to the likes of LH and BA.

May I ask what is your source for this info?

Do yo know about a referendum held by KLM amongst cabin crew many years ago in which they had to choose between
money or time-off. They chose the latter. The results today are indeed that KLM crews have more time-off after each flight,
but the paycheck is also significantly less compared to BA an LH.


I can assure you, I'm not making this up, but can't recall where I've read the exact numbers. My apologies.
 
notaxonrotax
Posts: 964
Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2011 2:29 pm

RE: AF / KL Restructuring

Sun Jan 15, 2012 5:13 pm

Quoting mauriceb (Reply 15):

After some research from reliable sources i can tell that both KCH and KCI will most probably leave the fleet in 2012, and will be scrapped.. The MD-11 will be gone in 2014.

There are also rumours that KL will get some AF A330's untill the 787 arrives, but those rumours are... just rumours, the news about the MD-11 is a bit more reliable, although i cant 100% confirm.

Your sources seem to be on the ball!
What great details.

What did mother Theresa and Anna Pavlova do to be downgraded to "spare parts"??
Are they higher cycled?

Would they be parted out in Holland?

What a shame, I guess I flew them all; definitely those 2 girls!!

No Tax On Rotax
For anybody that happens to be wondering:"yes, owning your own aircraft is a 100% worth it!"
 
JRadier
Posts: 3943
Joined: Mon Sep 27, 2004 11:36 pm

RE: AF / KL Restructuring

Sun Jan 15, 2012 7:12 pm

[/quote]

Quoting Nomik (Reply 27):
Bring back good old ATLAS and KSSU!

ATLAS, yes please! KSSU, please junk that shit!!!
For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and ther
 
Viscount724
Posts: 18834
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: AF / KL Restructuring

Sun Jan 15, 2012 7:33 pm

Quoting AirGabon (Reply 26):
And all, which is normal, are fluent in English, and many times in a third language for the cabin crews, so there is NO discrimination between French and "foreign" passengers!

In my experience, AF pilots and cabin crew have a much lower standard of English than KL, LX, LH, SK, AY, OS, among other carriers from countries where English is not the native language. I have been on several AF flights where you can barely understand the English announcements from both the cockpit and cabin crew. That is never a problem on KLM and the other carriers I mentioned.

There are of course exceptions, but I think it must be reflect the way English is taught in French schools. Living near GVA I also notice a much lower standard of English in the French-speaking part of Swtzerland than the larger German-speaking region.

[Edited 2012-01-15 11:34:35]
 
mauriceb
Posts: 2150
Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2004 2:50 am

RE: AF / KL Restructuring

Sun Jan 15, 2012 8:02 pm

Quoting notaxonrotax (Reply 31):

Your sources seem to be on the ball!
What great details.

What did mother Theresa and Anna Pavlova do to be downgraded to "spare parts"??
Are they higher cycled?

Would they be parted out in Holland?

What a shame, I guess I flew them all; definitely those 2 girls!!

No Tax On Rotax

They are actually 2 of the younger frames (1997 and 1995 i think) but they are up for D-checks, and KL isnt willing to invest so much money into them, and since they are younger frames, theire parts are more valuable!

Quoting SASMD82 (Reply 18):
I thought that the A333 will be used to replace four MD-11s?

Initial plan was that the 787 would replace them, but KL decided to indeed replace the first four with A330's, as they don't need the extra capacity (77W and A333 where orderd for expension)

Quoting goldorak (Reply 22):
There is no way AF will shut down operations at ORY. That would be a HUGE mistake.

Well, isn't it much more money saving when u just concentrate on one airport? I don't know the details about AF as u guys do, but that was what popped to mind. Im clearly not blaming AF or KL, both need great changes to become profitable.
 
md11dude
Posts: 128
Joined: Fri May 14, 2004 8:03 am

RE: AF / KL Restructuring

Mon Jan 16, 2012 2:45 am

Quoting mauriceb (Reply 1):
Quoting raptors (Reply 16):
ave heard that KLM will retire two MD-11's from the summer schedule, these will be scrapped

Oh? And the your source for this info is?

IWhy the heck would you scrap a useful aircraft. Its odd that these aircraft are really not that old, and they get scrapped while there are still DC-3's flying around!...I was under the impression that this aircraft was in relatively high demand for freight hauling airlines ??

And are these a/c not owned? I thought that would be a more attractive feature to hold on to them.

Well I tell ya, if i had the money...these planes would be saved.  
CP979
 
goldorak
Posts: 1353
Joined: Sat Sep 09, 2006 5:29 am

RE: AF / KL Restructuring

Mon Jan 16, 2012 6:51 am

Quoting lexer (Reply 23):
Why?
Quoting mauriceb (Reply 34):
Well, isn't it much more money saving when u just concentrate on one airport? I don't know the details about AF as u guys do, but that was what popped to mind. Im clearly not blaming AF or KL, both need great changes to become profitable.

Of course, concentrating on one airport makes you save money at first instance, but if AF leaves ORY, then you can be sure that U2 will fill the gap (and U2 could even leave CDG to concentrate in ORY) and it's the end of domestic ops for AF and AF would lose a lot of market shares.
ORY is a slot-constrained airport and AF has a lot of them and this is a very important asset. They are so precious, that when AF is reducing frequencies to a domestic destination (due to TGV competition by example), they are adding a flight to somewhere (e.g. BCN) to avoid to have an unused slot that will go to a competitor. ORY is also the preferred airport for many pax, as it is slightly closer to Paris and not as giant as CDG meaning that ops are more efficient (minimal walking distance, very short taxi time for aircrafts and no wait before take-off - you have never more than 2 aircraft before you for take-off). For these reasons, the shuttle concept (La Navette) to NCE, TLS, BOD and MRS would be hard to implement in an efficient way in CDG.
With the crazy road traffic we have in Paris, somebody who is living in the south of Paris will never go to CDG to take a domestic or European flight from CDG just to fly AF, if there are flights from ORY.
So if AF leaves ORY, most of their local business will go to the competition.
 
User avatar
Polot
Posts: 4587
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

RE: AF / KL Restructuring

Mon Jan 16, 2012 2:12 pm

Quoting md11dude (Reply 35):
IWhy the heck would you scrap a useful aircraft. Its odd that these aircraft are really not that old, and they get scrapped while there are still DC-3's flying around!...I was under the impression that this aircraft was in relatively high demand for freight hauling airlines ??

If parts are expensive and hard to find then it makes sense to scrap some of the fleet. While demand was relatively high for MD-11s, it has softened as the recession hit and most have already been placed with cargo carriers. Last January, for example, FedEx bought 4 MD-11Fs for $68 million. That is only $17 million per an aircraft. Then consider that you would have to convert the KL MD-11s, which costs money, and the option to scrap the aircraft becomes more favorable.
 
varig md-11
Posts: 1112
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2000 7:17 pm

RE: AF / KL Restructuring

Mon Jan 16, 2012 3:09 pm

Quoting mozart (Reply 17):
1. Realize that they are no longer an elite job
2. Put customers' interests before their own comfort
3. Realize that their attitude is an impediment to the company's well being
4. Work a bit more and - much more important - say bye bye to some absurd clauses in labour agreements

Merci Mozart
I would add as recommendations to AF staff before any restructuration starts
1- give a reason to customers to buy AF over QR EK EY eastbound and over U2 in Europe
2- don't believe your customers are so "different" because your competitors recruit them everyday (see the pace of QR and EK @CDG)
3- going upward in customer service means suppress the 10 Y abreast, not developp it (see the numerous bad marks on skytrax because of that)
4- no, customers are not a nuisance and exasperated attitude from the 80's is not a positive sign to revenue pax

Quoting 76er (Thread starter):
Fleet simplification will be done by accellerating MD11 retirements, as the A333's begin to roll in.

So, KL, the entity of AF/KL making benefits, see it as wise to simplify the fleet but some on this forum tell me I don't understand a thing when I say AF should simplify it's fleet?
It's not a source of savings to keep mini fleets of A340 and 747 against 50 something 777 + a handfull of A380
At any rate it's not like AF was that rich to keep this excentric behavior
AF TW AA NW DL UA CO BA U2 TP UX LH SK AZ MP KL SN VY HV LS SS TK SQ PC RG IW SE LI TN
 
SASMD82
Posts: 616
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2007 12:44 am

RE: AF / KL Restructuring

Mon Jan 16, 2012 6:51 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 20):
And as soon as we're done with that, we'll break for coffee and then fix the Middle East quickly
[quote=shamrock604,reply=29]Agree completely. In fact, even at AF, industrial action has been rare over the last few years - it's usually ATC, ground handlers, security and other service providers at CDG who do strike!

True, very true.

Quoting varig md-11 (Reply 38):
So, KL, the entity of AF/KL making benefits, see it as wise to simplify the fleet but some on this forum tell me I don't understand a thing when I say AF should simplify it's fleet?
It's not a source of savings to keep mini fleets of A340 and 747 against 50 something 777 + a handfull of A380

A fleet of 10 B744 and 15 A343 is not a mini fleet. Replacing them with second hand B772 or newly build A333 (more fuel efficient than the B772) makes sense.

Quoting varig md-11 (Reply 38):
At any rate it's not like AF was that rich to keep this excentric behavior

LH is very profitable even though their fleet is very excentric:
Long haul: A380, B744, A346, A343, A333
Short haul: A321, A320, A319, B733, B735
Domestic: CR9, CR7, Avro RJ85, Dash 8Q-100/300/400, ERJ195,
Cargo: MD-11, B777

Not to add SK, OS, SN and LX to this list.
 
varig md-11
Posts: 1112
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2000 7:17 pm

RE: AF / KL Restructuring

Mon Jan 16, 2012 10:07 pm

Quoting SASMD82 (Reply 39):
A fleet of 10 B744 and 15 A343 is not a mini fleet. Replacing them with second hand B772 or newly build A333 (more fuel efficient than the B772) makes sense.

Its not a mini fleet indeed but it's clumsy.
On one hand a 450 seats (400 of which Y) 744 , on the other hand 15 A343 and what it implies...
Standardize with the newest 300 seat versions of A330 combined with 77W for MIA HAV, like it was done on GIG.

Quoting SASMD82 (Reply 39):
LH is very profitable even though their fleet is very excentric:
Long haul: A380, B744, A346, A343, A333
Short haul: A321, A320, A319, B733, B735
Domestic: CR9, CR7, Avro RJ85, Dash 8Q-100/300/400, ERJ195,
Cargo: MD-11, B777

Yes, but LH are far more serious in their Arbeit, therefore the fleet standardization gains can be overlooked.
LH cabins in the 744 for example is really premium compared to AF: so LH has other sources of incomes which AF has not in the first place
AF TW AA NW DL UA CO BA U2 TP UX LH SK AZ MP KL SN VY HV LS SS TK SQ PC RG IW SE LI TN
 
76er
Topic Author
Posts: 446
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2007 8:04 pm

RE: AF / KL Restructuring

Tue Jan 17, 2012 8:19 am

Okay, we're 40 posts on, but I still have not read what AF is going to DO to restructure. Apart from freezing wages.
 
frigatebird
Posts: 1146
Joined: Thu Jun 05, 2008 7:02 pm

RE: AF / KL Restructuring

Tue Jan 17, 2012 12:17 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 33):
Quoting AirGabon (Reply 26):And all, which is normal, are fluent in English, and many times in a third language for the cabin crews, so there is NO discrimination between French and "foreign" passengers!
In my experience, AF pilots and cabin crew have a much lower standard of English than KL, LX, LH, SK, AY, OS, among other carriers from countries where English is not the native language. I have been on several AF flights where you can barely understand the English announcements from both the cockpit and cabin crew.

My girlfriend was on an AF flight to JNB 2 weeks ago. As it was an A380 flight, I was very interested in how she experienced in comparison with a flight she took to JNB with a VS B747, 2 months ago. In short:
- She had the idea the crew thought almost everyone aboard spoke French, with everything announced in French first and only a very brief announcement in English afterwards;
- the plane had a rather cramped interior with less legroom than the VS 747;
- was disappointed with the service during the night, with all flight attendants chatting happily in the galley, but looking rather disturbed when she came to fetch herself a glass of water.
- She did like the cameras looking out of the plane on the A380.

If it was up to her, she would prefer VS: she liked the professionalism and service of the crew a lot better, they went at length to please the passengers, were proud of the special edition of the 747 with a large bar area and cosy seats and some kind of special livery (though I have no idea which one that may be). And the food was also better.

Have to say as well that I booked an exit seat on the upper deck for her, but on check-in it was changed to a seat on the lower deck (not at the exit of course). And the system didn't allow any changes ("technical difficulties", was the explanation). I'm on the same flight on the 26th of this month, booked the same seat, so I'm very curious how I will experience it myself.


Quoting SASMD82 (Reply 39):
A fleet of 10 B744 and 15 A343 is not a mini fleet. Replacing them with second hand B772 or newly build A333 (more fuel efficient than the B772) makes sense.

They've already ordered 787's to replace the A343's, 77W's to replace the 744, and A350's to replace the 772's. Investing in interim replacements will cost more money than it saves.
146,318/19/20/21,AB6,332,343,345,388,722,732/3/4/5/G/8,9,742,74E,744,752,762,763,772,77E,773,77W,AT4/7,ATP,CRK,E90,F50/7
 
jetlag73
Posts: 74
Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2011 8:20 am

RE: AF / KL Restructuring

Tue Jan 17, 2012 1:28 pm

Hi Frigatebird,

Thanks for the feedback of AF A380.

While I think AF J is far below competition, I also think AF Y is most of the times above competition (I mean from other EU and US airlines only, sadly).

I can hardly see how 10 aside on A380 with 32' pitch on AF could be more tight than 10 aside on a 744 on VS.
Of course the 10 aside Y on 777s is a different matter.
I fly A380s quite a lot, albeit on SQ, and seat width/pitch is the same as AF. I can't say I'm more tight than on a 744, on the contrary (and I'm 6'3).

Also, catering on AF Y is generally good, including free flow of Champagne (not sparkling wine). SQ is better, but not that far, I fell (talking about Y food, here).
VS catering is "fun", with many freebees, but the main meal quality is very average, for my own experience.
Still I like VS's fun and young concept.
For AF, I think Y is OK, J and F are just not good enough.

We'll know more about your own experience soon, I guess. My a TR if possible, that would be nice.

Enzo
 
mozart
Posts: 2017
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 12:21 am

RE: AF / KL Restructuring

Tue Jan 17, 2012 1:43 pm

Quoting frigatebird (Reply 42):
with everything announced in French first and only a very brief announcement in English afterwards;

Err... she *did* realise that she was flying with Air *FRANCE*, right?

I find it funny how some English native speakers accuse other countries/companies/people for giving more "prominence" to their own language when in their own environment. I think it's that "why doesn't English come first" attitude that smacks of cultural egocentricity.

Sorry, an aside to the topic, but it struck me as odd.
 
notaxonrotax
Posts: 964
Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2011 2:29 pm

RE: AF / KL Restructuring

Tue Jan 17, 2012 2:04 pm

Quoting mozart (Reply 44):
Err... she *did* realise that she was flying with Air *FRANCE*, right?

I agree with you mister Mozart.
KLM does the same, so does Lufthansa etc etc etc.
It is their prerogative...........

However, I think he didnt mean the order of languages so much. More the fact that AF uses French first, but the n followed by a much shorter English version......in questionable English.

That is my experience with AF anyway!


No Tax On Rotax

[Edited 2012-01-17 06:16:44]
For anybody that happens to be wondering:"yes, owning your own aircraft is a 100% worth it!"
 
Paul787
Posts: 35
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2011 1:57 pm

RE: AF / KL Restructuring

Tue Jan 17, 2012 2:12 pm

Quoting notaxonrotax (Reply 45):

However, I think he didnt mean the order of languages so much. More the fact that AF uses fRench first, but the n followed by a much shorter English version......in questionable English.

When I flew KL on AMS-WAW-AMS segment, the announcements were made in Dutch (obviously I didn't understand a word), English, and there was a short announcement in Polish once we landed.
320/321/333/343/388/733/737/738/739/752/763/772/CR9/DH8/ER3/ER4/E75/M82
 
B747forever
Posts: 12855
Joined: Mon May 21, 2007 9:50 pm

RE: AF / KL Restructuring

Tue Jan 17, 2012 2:24 pm

Quoting notaxonrotax (Reply 45):
More the fact that AF uses fRench first, but the n followed by a much shorter English version......

That is not only isolated to AF. About a week ago I flew SFO-AMS and after takeoff the pilot spoke in Dutch for a VERY long time. After a short pause he spoke a few words in English, and that was it. It was kind of comical as the announcement in Dutch was so much longer and (English speaking) PAX around me found it weird too.
Work Hard, Fly Right
 
tff
Posts: 79
Joined: Mon May 09, 2011 3:33 pm

RE: AF / KL Restructuring

Tue Jan 17, 2012 2:48 pm

Quoting SASMD82 (Reply 39):
A fleet of 10 B744 and 15 A343 is not a mini fleet.

I agree. And it's not even a fleet of 15 A343s, but a fleet of 30 A332s+A343s.

Quoting varig md-11 (Reply 40):
Its not a mini fleet indeed but it's clumsy.
On one hand a 450 seats (400 of which Y) 744 , on the other hand 15 A343 and what it implies...
Standardize with the newest 300 seat versions of A330 combined with 77W for MIA HAV, like it was done on GIG.

I'm not sure what a "clumsy fleet" would be, but the discussion before was focused on aircraft types, rather than on aircraft configurations. Of course you could gain some operational flexibility by standardising the same configuration in all aircraft of the same type, but I would think that any gains the airline would have there would be merely marginal.

Quoting frigatebird (Reply 42):
They've already ordered 787's to replace the A343's, 77W's to replace the 744, and A350's to replace the 772's. Investing in interim replacements will cost more money than it saves.

  

[Edited 2012-01-17 06:59:25]
Remove before flight
 
notaxonrotax
Posts: 964
Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2011 2:29 pm

RE: AF / KL Restructuring

Tue Jan 17, 2012 2:50 pm

Quoting B747forever (Reply 47):
That is not only isolated to AF. About a week ago I flew SFO-AMS and after takeoff the pilot spoke in Dutch for a VERY long time. After a short pause he spoke a few words in English, and that was it. It was kind of comical as the announcement in Dutch was so much longer and (English speaking) PAX around me found it weird too.

Oh sure, you´ll find all sorts.

A year ago, I was woken in the middle of a MD-11 red-eye because the KLM captain hit a certain amount of flight hours that particular moment. (I´m gonna say "a million" ??, whatever)........anyway, the crew had big fun running up and down the aisles with the happy captain.
I didn´t mind.......but it was a little weird. NOT the norm of KLM though; that is my point.

I think the large majority will agree that KLM is a fully bilingual airline........and I think AF struggle with their English a little at times. Or so it seems.........

No Tax On Rotax
For anybody that happens to be wondering:"yes, owning your own aircraft is a 100% worth it!"