Nomik
Topic Author
Posts: 52
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2011 8:00 am

VS To Block IAG

Mon Jan 16, 2012 9:06 am

The FT reports that VS will pull out all the stops regarding IAG's prooposed takeovers:
http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/9c57f...07-00144feabdc0.html#axzz1jbt4d641
http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/e3442...07-00144feabdc0.html#axzz1jbt4d641
This is VS's last-ditch stand that spells its demise as BA really goes for the jugular.
Let the battle commence!
Let VS join SkyTeam to take on the big boys!
 
kiwiandrew

RE: VS To Block IAG

Mon Jan 16, 2012 9:16 am

I have been a fan of VS in the past. However, I feel they are just being silly here, they can't afford BD, they don't want BD, and if they end up with BD the almost certain result is that the combined carrier will go belly up within 6 months under the weight of BD's debt.


While in principal I would prefer a solution other than IAG taking over BD ( and before anyone accuses me of being anti- BA, I also opposed the AZ/AP deal and I would be equally opposed to any attempt by LH to take over Air Berlin, I don't think it is good in any country for the number one player to absorb the number two player) in practice it is the only potentially viable solution that may result in a large number of current BD staff getting to keep their jobs.

At this stage VS almost deserve to have their bluff called, except for the fact that the staff of BD and VS don't deserve the inevitable outcome of a BD/VS deal. Dragging the process out now can only harm the employees of BD, and they deserve better than that.

[Edited 2012-01-16 01:17:39]
 
DTWHKG
Posts: 26
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2010 5:27 pm

RE: VS To Block IAG

Mon Jan 16, 2012 9:19 am

I'd put my money on VS joining *A.
 
AirbusA6
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RE: VS To Block IAG

Mon Jan 16, 2012 9:26 am

BD isn't the UK's Number 2 player. People may be obsessed with LHR, but from other London airports U2 and FR provide the real competition to BA.
it's the bus to stansted (now renamed National Express a6 to ruin my username)
 
mikey72
Posts: 1439
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2009 1:31 pm

RE: VS To Block IAG

Mon Jan 16, 2012 9:35 am

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 1):
While in principal I would prefer a solution other than IAG taking over BD


Why ? When it is so obviously the most beneficial outcome ? It can only be an illogical resentment of IAG.

What could possibly be better for all concerned including LHR and the resulting expansion in BA's network to under served developing economies of the world and thus the British economy ?

I'm ''sure'' the UK authorities will tell VS to 'grow up'...we're not in the 80's anymore.

The UK Government has to make LHR work with the resources it has to best serve the economy....having 10% of the slots tied up in this manner or blocking the most beneficial suitor from purchasing is beyond madness.

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 1):
( and before anyone accuses me of being anti- BA


If it were anyone but you.....i'm afraid you've made your bed on this one......

Heathrow has to be competitive on a GLOBAL level...

That said : -

WHEN is VS going to start CONTRIBUTING again to UK civil aviation instead of desperately trying to hold it back to suit their own ends ?
Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
 
kiwiandrew

RE: VS To Block IAG

Mon Jan 16, 2012 9:45 am

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 4):
Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 1):
While in principal I would prefer a solution other than IAG taking over BD


Why ? When it is so obviously the most beneficial outcome ? It can only be an illogical resentment of IAG.

No, it can actually be about something else, for example, it can be about the number one player at LHR taking over the number two player.

If the number one player at LHR was LH and BA were the number two then I would still not be happy if LH took over BA ( even if I reluctantly had to accept it as the only way to save a large number of jobs that doesn't mean that I would be happy about it) I also opposed TP taking over Portugalia, and AZ taking over AirOne for exactly the same reasons. It has nothing to do with being anti BA/IAG no matter how much you personally try to spin it that way. In this particular case I agree that IAG taking over BD is the only viable option, but that doesn't mean I have to be enthusiastic about it.
 
mikey72
Posts: 1439
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2009 1:31 pm

RE: VS To Block IAG

Mon Jan 16, 2012 9:55 am

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 5):
No, it can actually be about something else, for example, it can be about the number one player at LHR taking over the number two player.
BD is bust..through not fault of IAG....IAG are just buying the 'mess' that's left....not 'taking it over' in some kind of hostile manoeuuvre.

Both LH and employees of BD must be thanking their lucky stars they are !

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 5):
In this particular case I agree that IAG taking over BD is the only viable option, but that doesn't mean I have to be enthusiastic about it.

In this 'particular case' anyone with the smallest degree of business acumen 'would' be enthusiastic otherwise I'm not sure what your point is ?

Nobody really 'cares' whether you are 'happy' about it...that's a ridiculous basis on which to judge a business transaction. Especially one so clear cut as this.

[Edited 2012-01-16 01:59:48]
Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
 
speedmarque
Posts: 310
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2005 8:37 pm

RE: VS To Block IAG

Mon Jan 16, 2012 9:55 am

VS is becoming more and more isolated and more irrelevant to the modern age and they know it. They are behaving like a petulent child "If we can't have it, noone will".

They will be brushed aside like a fly. It's the good and hard working staff I feel sorry for.
 
LHRFlyer
Posts: 686
Joined: Sun Apr 11, 2010 12:50 pm

RE: VS To Block IAG

Mon Jan 16, 2012 9:59 am

I think the reason why Virgin is pressing for the UK competition authorities to review the bid is that, based on current precedent, the remedies required by European competition authorities are likely to involve IAG/BA making available a certain number of slots to any entrants who want to start routes where competition is reduced because the acquisition of bmi, rather than an outright forced disposal of a large number slots. This is of little value to Virgin, unless they are minded to start flying to mid-haul routes like Moscow.

For all Virgin's complaining, whilst LHR slots are not easy to come by, there is still an active market in the trading of slots, and recent evidence has shown they have simply not been acquisitive when they've had the opportunity to be.
 
mikey72
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Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2009 1:31 pm

RE: VS To Block IAG

Mon Jan 16, 2012 10:08 am

Look, it's as simple as this.

BD and VS have been overtaken by developments and events in the airline industry 'globally' not just within the UK.

Alliances, mergers, openskies, anti-trust immunities, low cost carriers, middle eastern giants etc etc

VS can't keep blaming IAG for this...they are just high-lighting their ineptitude.
Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
 
kiwiandrew

RE: VS To Block IAG

Mon Jan 16, 2012 10:13 am

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 6):
Nobody really 'cares' whether you are 'happy' about it...that's a ridiculous basis on which to judge a businees transaction. Especially one so clear cut as this.

(sigh!)
I have already acknowledged that the IAG takeover of BD is the only realistic option, so clearly that wasn't the part of my post you were responding to as we are in agreement on that.

I have also acknowledged that I think VS are just being ridiculous in their challenges for a dubious 'prize' that they clearly don't want and frankly couldn't handle. I don't think that you disagree with that either.

Since we are in agreement on those two points I am forced to conclude therefore that the part of my post you were responding to was my lack of enthusiasm for the deal, and if that is the case then you clearly do care about whether I am 'happy' as that seems to be your sole objection to my post. However, I suspect you are very nearly right.... I am sure that nobody else cares, but I don't see anything in the terms of use for A.Net which state that users can only post opinions which everyone else cares about.... it would be a very quiet site if that were the case.

In any case, I will re-iterate that I think VS are doing this purely as a kneejerk stunt. They don't want BD, they can't afford BD, they wouldn't know what to do with BD if they got it and frankly I think that they would absolutely s__t themselves if IAG decided to call off the deal and LH said 'VS, we happily accept your counter-offer'. That, at least, is something that I think you and I can actually agree on Big grin

[Edited 2012-01-16 02:15:17]
 
mikey72
Posts: 1439
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2009 1:31 pm

RE: VS To Block IAG

Mon Jan 16, 2012 10:23 am

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 10):
Since we are in agreement on those two points I am forced to conclude therefore that the part of my post you were responding to was my lack of enthusiasm for the deal

Yes because how could anyone lack enthusiasm for the only deal on the table that will save at least some UK jobs and is good for the UK overall ?

You can dance around the issues all you want acknowledging that it is the only 'realistic' option but not ONCE do you explain your lack of enthusiasm ??

What does that lead the rest of us to assume ?

You must be anti UK in some way.
Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
 
richardw
Posts: 3131
Joined: Tue May 08, 2001 3:17 am

RE: VS To Block IAG

Mon Jan 16, 2012 10:27 am

Another link http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/9c57fb7e-3...07-00144feabdc0.html#axzz1jcE4WZwk

VS are just saying it is anti-competitive on some routes.

Well, others are saying that as well, not really new.
 
SCL767
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Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2006 6:25 am

RE: VS To Block IAG

Mon Jan 16, 2012 10:32 am

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 6):
In this 'particular case' anyone with the smallest degree of business acumen 'would' be enthusiastic

Some of us here in South America are extremely pleased that BA will eventually be able to expand its regional and long-haul operations at LHR and launch new destinations. It will eventually enable passengers traveling to/from destinations in South America such as LIM and SCL a new option to connect via LHR to destinations not served via MAD; when LAN launches services to LHR. Most LIM and SCL passengers traveling to/from Europe in order to reach other international destinations are tired of having to rely mainly on connections via either AMS and/or CDG on AF/KL.

[Edited 2012-01-16 02:37:04]
 
kiwiandrew

RE: VS To Block IAG

Mon Jan 16, 2012 10:45 am

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 11):
You can dance around the issues all you want acknowledging that it is the only 'realistic' option but not ONCE do you explain your lack of enthusiasm ??

I have already explained my lack of enthusiasm several times. I don't like to see the number one player in a market ( in this case LHR ) take over the number two player.... I also lacked enthusiasm for AZ taking over AP, for AF taking over UT, for TP taking over Portugalia...., none of which, as far as I can see make me anti-Italian, anti-French or anti-Portugese so I fail to see how you manage to interpret my being unenthusiastic about a dominant player in any market taking over the next biggest player in the same market as being anti-uk in some way? Just to clarify, if TG tomorrow announced that they were taking over Bangkok Airways I would be similarly unenthusiastic, I also don't think that Ryanair should have been allowed to buy a big stake in EI, and I don't like the tie-up between MH and AK, the two biggest players in the Malaysian market. If next week AC announced that they were going to buy Westjet I would also be unenthusiastic about that... does that make me anti Thai, anti Irish, anti-Malay and anti-Canadian in your books? I think that I have been quite consistent in what I have posted and not once have I rubbished IAG or BA. I can dislike a transaction, even one that I acknowledge to be necessary, without having to dislike the parties to the transaction.

I am not sure why my lack of enthusiasm for this transaction is so troubling to you? I will remind you of your own words

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 6):
Nobody really 'cares' whether you are 'happy' about it...

It seems odd for someone who doesn't care to spend so much energy trying to convince me that I should be happy. I can only conclude that deep down you do want me to be happy, and, of course, I am suitably greatful for your concern for my wellbeing. Thank you 

Anyway, I am off to bed now, maybe that will give other people their chance to post their thoughts on this thread. Have a pleasant day.
 
UAL777UK
Posts: 2107
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2005 1:16 am

RE: VS To Block IAG

Mon Jan 16, 2012 10:46 am

For stater I think the title of the thread id misleading and should have the words "Will Try" added!

We knew this all along that VS was going to be a thorn in the side of IAG when this deal was announced so nothong new here IMHO.

VS will huff and puff and may get something out of the deal a slot or two or something but whether they like it or not this deal is going to happen and as much as I dont want BD to go the way of the Dodo IAG buying them was in the end the best option for all concerned, some will lose their jobs but a lot more will keep them. I thinmif VS had got their paws on BD that wiould have been the other way around.

Time to move on VS, stop wasting your energy on this and concentrate on the future.
 
skipness1E
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RE: VS To Block IAG

Mon Jan 16, 2012 10:52 am

Good Heavens there's nothing more anti competitve than an Alliance if you take the argument to the next step.The difference between that and a cartel is not something I ever really got my head around but anyway.....

Virgin Atlantic do not have the ability to save what's left of BMI from falling apart in the timeframe required. Branson and co can huff and puff all they like but if they delay matters, BMI might be gone, something which might suit VS more. He's not the sainted man he used to be in the UK, we've seen his money grabbing side too many times of late. Virgin money and Northern Rock anyone?

If VS and BD were to merge the succesfully, something I cannot see, the very next day we'd all be tutting and declaring them too small to remain independent.

[Edited 2012-01-16 03:02:05]
 
lhr380
Posts: 2453
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RE: VS To Block IAG

Mon Jan 16, 2012 11:06 am

Typical response really. Just look at ATI trans Atlantic, VS were so against it, even painting planes with NO WAY BA/AA Slogans, and as soon as BA and AA finally got it, what do VS do, they get it for themselves as well.

They have a big annoying mouth and like to argue when BA do anything, but they have nothing to back it up with.
(The views on this site are my own and no one elses)
 
mikey72
Posts: 1439
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2009 1:31 pm

RE: VS To Block IAG

Mon Jan 16, 2012 11:20 am

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 14):
I don't like to see the number one player in a market ( in this case LHR ) take over the number two player....

The number two player in this market is no longer a going concern nor can it be made one.

IAG are not 'taking it over'.

It has been put up for sale for anyone to bid on.

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 14):
It seems odd for someone who doesn't care to spend so much energy trying to convince me that I should be happy

It's got nothing to do with your happines. Far from it.

Thousands of people read these forums and it is important they are aware of the 'facts' and not your bias 'fiction'

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 10):
I have already acknowledged that the IAG takeover of BD is the only realistic option,

LH at FRA 66% of slots....'Realistic' to compete and serve all markets.

AF at CDG 59% of slots...'Realistic' to compete and serve all markets.

KL at AMS 57% of slots...'Realistic' to compete and serve all markets.

BA at LHR 43% of slots...Unrealsitic to compete and serve all markets.

Blocking BA from buying BD from a bigger and more dominant airline within Europe (LH) just to prevent it from obtaining slots at its OWN base and a still less dominant position than its European rivals at its OWN base....UNREALISTIC

Especially when the company trying to do the blocking has no viable alternative.

??????
Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
 
jfk777
Posts: 5822
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:23 am

RE: VS To Block IAG

Mon Jan 16, 2012 12:45 pm

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 18):
LH at FRA 66% of slots....'Realistic' to compete and serve all markets.

AF at CDG 59% of slots...'Realistic' to compete and serve all markets.

KL at AMS 57% of slots...'Realistic' to compete and serve all markets.

BA at LHR 43% of slots...Unrealsitic to compete and serve all markets.

WHY does every one make this tired argument ? DO the world's leading airline want to fly 3 or 5 times daily to AMS, CDG or FRA the way they want to LHR ? NO. For every flight the Singapores, Cathay, Emirates, Air Canada, AA and SAA's of the world have to Contunental Europe they have tripple or more to LHR, there are only so many times you can fly to Amsterdam. KLM can fil a 777 from AMS to GRU but TAM Can NOT fill a 777 from GRU to AMS. KLM can a 777 to Osaka but JAL can't from Osaka to AMS.

These percentages are the way they are because the European airlines can fill a plane to more foreign destination more frequently then a foreign airline can. Would any US airline try to fly from LAX to CDG double daily like Air France, no way.
 
skipness1E
Posts: 3368
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 9:18 am

RE: VS To Block IAG

Mon Jan 16, 2012 12:55 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 19):
WHY does every one make this tired argument ?

It's not a tired argument it's the best possible comparison. Are you saying that BA ought to be constrained more at it's home base because FRA, AMS and CDG are somehow less popular internationally? It's not right that European competition has a different set of rules to the British, this is of course how the EU works, the French for example obeying the rules they want to and expressing astonishment at why this annoys the British.

VS want to prevent BA getting onto a level playing field with Lufthansa and Air France / KLM so that the interests of VS are protected. The sheer number of competing airlines on key routes is indicative of existing and healthy competition. Indeed the presence of VS on that route proves it. VS have had ample opportunity to organically grow their slot portfolio and continue to build their airline against BA however they have been in a cul-de-sac of a stagnating route network and product of late with LHR slots being leased you. There are few major routes out of LHR that don't have a high level of competition.
 
mikey72
Posts: 1439
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2009 1:31 pm

RE: VS To Block IAG

Mon Jan 16, 2012 1:03 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 19):
Quoting mikey72 (Reply 18):
LH at FRA 66% of slots....'Realistic' to compete and serve all markets.

AF at CDG 59% of slots...'Realistic' to compete and serve all markets.

KL at AMS 57% of slots...'Realistic' to compete and serve all markets.

BA at LHR 43% of slots...Unrealsitic to compete and serve all markets.

WHY does every one make this tired argument ?

It is not an argument.

These statistics are just simply a way of showing the kind of access an airline 'needs' to its main base in order to achieve a reasonable operation these days.

It's not just a European phenomena. Look at the U.S.A

UA has 75% of slots at IAH and 72% at IAD...it's the same the world over.

The UK chancellor has just announced today greater links with China etc IAG should be able to serve new markets without sacrificing others. It is not at all unreasonable when you consider the above.

BD went bust, LH bought it..it's still bust...jeez let's just let IAG have it and benefit all concerned like they should have in the first place.

The competiiton authorities in the UK should just tell VS to stop wasting everyone's time !
Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
 
antonovman
Posts: 426
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2001 12:45 pm

RE: VS To Block IAG

Mon Jan 16, 2012 1:04 pm

If the UK competition authorities get a hold of this, it will take months maybe years before they make a decision.
By that time BMI will have gone bust altogether as I cant see LH throwing any more money at it.
 
LGWGate49
Posts: 96
Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2009 6:45 pm

RE: VS To Block IAG

Mon Jan 16, 2012 1:04 pm

I believe these actions by VS could simply play into IAG's hands.

I understand that currently the price IAG will pay LH has been negotiated as being dependent on BD's 2012 Q1 results. These will hardly be helped by the continued uncertainty over BD's future, and could end up with IAG paying less as a result.

Quoting speedmarque (Reply 7):
It's the good and hard working staff I feel sorry for.

   I completely agree.
Look for the ridiculous in everything, and you will find it
 
staralliance85
Posts: 181
Joined: Sat Jul 02, 2011 3:29 am

RE: VS To Block IAG

Mon Jan 16, 2012 1:36 pm

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 18):

LH at FRA 66% of slots....'Realistic' to compete and serve all markets.

AF at CDG 59% of slots...'Realistic' to compete and serve all markets.

KL at AMS 57% of slots...'Realistic' to compete and serve all markets.

BA at LHR 43% of slots...Unrealsitic to compete and serve all markets.

Blocking BA from buying BD from a bigger and more dominant airline within Europe (LH) just to prevent it from obtaining slots at its OWN base and a still less dominant position than its European rivals at its OWN base....UNREALISTIC



I personally wanted BD to go to VS but May the Best Man Win!! IAG should Not be blocked by acquiring BD because they will Not be too dominant at LHR. With the takeover, they will have around 50% of the slots. They need to grow to compete with AF/KL and LH.

Quoting Nomik (Thread starter):
m to take on the big boys!

Let VS join SkyTeam to take on the big boys!


I totally disagree. VS is better off with *A than ST , in order to compete with IAG. Don't forget SQ owns 49% of VS and they have friendly relationships with many *A carriers. VS will have to concentrate on being a long distance airline and expand their network to BKK, SIN, PEK and YYZ. They should heavily rely on N American traffic (via LHR) to Africa, India and SE Asia. The bulk of their N American network are to *A hubs and should have a Very Strong agreements with UA and AC.
brad Fitzpatrick
 
richardw
Posts: 3131
Joined: Tue May 08, 2001 3:17 am

RE: VS To Block IAG

Mon Jan 16, 2012 2:03 pm

Yes VS needs to join the *A, and pretty quick. It is the only way forward for them and SQ.

How important are the leisure long hauls from LGW and MAN to their profits?
 
mikey72
Posts: 1439
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2009 1:31 pm

RE: VS To Block IAG

Mon Jan 16, 2012 2:16 pm

Quoting antonovman (Reply 22):
If the UK competition authorities get a hold of this, it will take months maybe years before they make a decision.

The thing is I cannot believe IAG and LH would of progressed to this level without being sure of the deal being allowed.

Let's not forget that VS are not only up against IAG but also LH too and no airline in the EU has more influence than LH.

The timing for VS is also far from great, no authority in the UK is going to make a decision at capacity restricted LHR that is going to hinder the UK economy with all that is going on in the world economy.

Delaying will just also increase the risk of job losses.

VS should hang their heads in shame.
Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
 
skipness1E
Posts: 3368
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 9:18 am

RE: VS To Block IAG

Mon Jan 16, 2012 2:29 pm

Quoting staralliance85 (Reply 24):
VS will have to concentrate on being a long distance airline and expand their network to BKK, SIN, PEK and YYZ. They should heavily rely on N American traffic (via LHR) to Africa, India and SE Asia. The bulk of their N American network are to *A hubs and should have a Very Strong agreements with UA and AC

OKAY...where to start. Can I ask do you work in a commercial role for STAR? I don't see how any of what you want makes sense.
BKK is not one of BA's better routes so standard VS cherry picking won't apply. If you want a point to point terminator then they're up against STAR Alliance partner Thai in their own market on a prime route. Not the best way to start odd in a new alliance I would say.
SIN. well not while 49% owner Singapore Airlines has any say in it, those A380s don't fill themselves.
PEK good potential but again, it's not a goldmine just yet for anyone.
YYZ - dropped after 9-11 with ORD and unlike ORD never came back again. Strong competition with Air Canada and BA from LHR and Air Transat at the lower end everywhere else in the UK.

You say Virgin should have strong agreements with United and Air Canada but on one level they are looking to poach their passengers. I do not see Air Canada welcoming VS onto LHR-YYZ somehow and the idea that United needs VS is comic. What do they need them for?
American need BA to feed their LHR hub into Europe, the same does not apply to UA and VS. I think we are now seeing Alliance fans as well air airline fans on here. You guys need to understand that alliances are competitive internally and do not function as a cohesive and structural organisation. Each airline would be nuts to put the interests of a partner over it's own. Virgin has been slowly marginalised that it's hard to see what it would add to STAR beyond what's already in place. They're certainly not needed on the North Atlantic.
 
shankly
Posts: 1194
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2000 10:42 pm

RE: VS To Block IAG

Mon Jan 16, 2012 2:29 pm

So when is VS getting it's A380's???

VS should consider buying into "kindred spirit" Kingfisher to form the perfect basket case airline
L1011 - P F M
 
commavia
Posts: 9641
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:30 am

RE: VS To Block IAG

Mon Jan 16, 2012 2:39 pm

To be expected, of course. Virgin has made whining and blame-shifting part of its corporate strategy for years - this appears to be merely a continuation of the trend. As others have already discussed, Virgin has - once again - been left behind as the industry and the market evolve, and are now blaming BA for it. Sad, really.

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 1):
While in principal I would prefer a solution other than IAG taking over BD ( and before anyone accuses me of being anti- BA, I also opposed the AZ/AP deal and I would be equally opposed to any attempt by LH to take over Air Berlin, I don't think it is good in any country for the number one player to absorb the number two player) in practice it is the only potentially viable solution that may result in a large number of current BD staff getting to keep their jobs.

I don't see why it's all that big a deal if BA/IAG controls 55%+ of the slots at Heathrow, nor if the U.K. only has one true global airline. The same goes for Alitalia in Italy, Lufthansa in Germany, etc. The reality is that all of these European markets are - in context - quite small, and it seems perfectly logical to me that each of Europe's largest countries (demographically and economically) have one big airline, plus a few of the crossborder low-fare carriers (Ryanair, EasyJet, etc.).

Quoting speedmarque (Reply 7):
VS is becoming more and more isolated and more irrelevant to the modern age and they know it. They are behaving like a petulent child "If we can't have it, noone will".

So well-put.

Quoting LHRFlyer (Reply 8):
I think the reason why Virgin is pressing for the UK competition authorities to review the bid is that, based on current precedent, the remedies required by European competition authorities are likely to involve IAG/BA making available a certain number of slots to any entrants who want to start routes where competition is reduced because the acquisition of bmi, rather than an outright forced disposal of a large number slots. This is of little value to Virgin, unless they are minded to start flying to mid-haul routes like Moscow.

Very astute observation. Virgin wants to shape the outcome of this as much as possible, and since they know that they have already been beaten financially and strategically, their next best shot is to try and steer the competitive review so that it either: (a) unravels the deal, or (b) helps Virgin as much as possible. The last thing Virgin wants is for BA/IAG to be forced to give up Heathrow slots, and then have the slots be reallocated to new entrants and other carriers wishing to inject additional competition at Heathrow. That is anathema to Virgin's interests, which - of course - are (despite their rhetoric) for as restricted, closed, and non-competitive a Heathrow as possible.

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 26):
Let's not forget that VS are not only up against IAG but also LH too and no airline in the EU has more influence than LH.

That is one dynamic of this I will be interested to watch. Lufthansa is desperate to offload BMI as soon as possible. With Virgin apparently preparing to throw so much sand in the gears of the deal and prevent Lufthansa from getting BMI off its books, is Virgin poisoning the well for any future strategic activity with Lufthansa?
 
mikey72
Posts: 1439
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2009 1:31 pm

RE: VS To Block IAG

Mon Jan 16, 2012 2:45 pm

Quoting shankly (Reply 28):
So when is VS getting it's A380's???

Probably at about the same time they convince Airbus to start supporting Concorde again.
Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
 
richardw
Posts: 3131
Joined: Tue May 08, 2001 3:17 am

RE: VS To Block IAG

Mon Jan 16, 2012 3:00 pm

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 27):
the idea that United needs VS is comic. What do they need them for?

Codeshare LHR-JFK? MAN/LGW-LAS? LHR-BOS? LHR-MCO?

Retention of CO code LHR-MIA?

Codeshare LHR-HKG and HKG-SYD?

[Edited 2012-01-16 07:02:12]
 
superjeff
Posts: 667
Joined: Fri Feb 05, 2010 2:14 am

RE: VS To Block IAG

Mon Jan 16, 2012 3:06 pm

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 1):

I fully agree. All you have to do is look at what happened with the AA/TW acquisition in the U.S. in 2000. Almost all of the TWA staff eventually lost their jobs, and only a handful of pilots remained (mostly very senior TWA personnel who had flown international trips relegated to short haul domestics - from 747's to DC9's.
 
UAL777UK
Posts: 2107
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2005 1:16 am

RE: VS To Block IAG

Mon Jan 16, 2012 3:08 pm

Quoting richardw (Reply 25):
Yes VS needs to join the *A, and pretty quick. It is the only way forward for them and SQ.

I just dont see what VS brings to the Star table.

Quoting richardw (Reply 31):
Codeshare LHR-JFK? MAN/LGW-LAS? LHR-BOS? LHR-MCO?

Retention of CO code LHR-MIA?

If thats all it is then good luck VS. I think they would be better off in ST myself
 
richardw
Posts: 3131
Joined: Tue May 08, 2001 3:17 am

RE: VS To Block IAG

Mon Jan 16, 2012 3:12 pm

VS needs to join an alliance and do more partnering, it is the only way forward for them.

Would Delta welcome VS into SkyTeam with open arms?

Would SQ divest before VS joined SkyTeam?

[Edited 2012-01-16 07:19:53]
 
luganopirate
Posts: 48
Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2010 3:43 pm

RE: VS To Block IAG

Mon Jan 16, 2012 3:27 pm

Just Branson bleating like he always does when he can't get his way. It would have been a great deal for VS and provided non UK feeder traffic, but they blew it.

He had his chance to put up and couldn't, so now he should shut up.
 
jfk777
Posts: 5822
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:23 am

RE: VS To Block IAG

Mon Jan 16, 2012 3:30 pm

Quoting richardw (Reply 34):
Would Delta welcome VS into SkyTeam with open arms?

Would SQ divest before VS joined SkyTeam?

Why is everyone so concerned for Singapore Air, they know they own 49% and not 51%. Its time for Virgin to join something and move on from the parallysis that has been the SQ 49% investment. Delta would make a decent partner since VS flies from many cities to LHR that DL doesn't and a JFK-LHR type shuttle could be done too. By joining an alliance doesn't mean an investment will be made by Delta or another group into VS, ownership between the Virgin group & SQ doesn't have to change.
 
avek00
Posts: 3155
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 5:56 am

RE: VS To Block IAG

Mon Jan 16, 2012 3:30 pm

Quoting richardw (Reply 34):
VS needs to join an alliance

The question is whether VS ought to join an alliance, but rather which alliance would offer an invitation for them to join.
Live life to the fullest.
 
speedmarque
Posts: 310
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2005 8:37 pm

RE: VS To Block IAG

Mon Jan 16, 2012 3:32 pm

Quoting avek00 (Reply 37):

They are worthless to an alliance. No unique routes or feeder traffic.
 
skipness1E
Posts: 3368
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 9:18 am

RE: VS To Block IAG

Mon Jan 16, 2012 3:52 pm

Quoting speedmarque (Reply 38):
They are worthless to an alliance. No unique routes or feeder traffic.

This is it in a nutshell. Commercially, what does Virgin offer STAR that they haven't already got? Same goes for SkyTeam.
 
timf
Posts: 428
Joined: Wed Mar 05, 2003 8:36 am

RE: VS To Block IAG

Mon Jan 16, 2012 4:15 pm

I previously thought VS would lean towards joining Star Alliance, but if in fact the deal between LH and IAG for BD closes, I can't help but think there will be bitter blood between VS and founding Star Alliance member LH that would preclude VS from wanting to join Star. This isn't to say they will join SkyTeam as I could still see them partnering with other independent airlines, but I think it stands a better chance following this deal than if VS had been the winning bidder.
 
TeamintheSky
Posts: 290
Joined: Fri Apr 08, 2011 10:18 am

RE: VS To Block IAG

Mon Jan 16, 2012 4:19 pm

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 39):
This is it in a nutshell. Commercially, what does Virgin offer STAR that they haven't already got? Same goes for SkyTeam.

And it seems like DL even approached VS for a tie-up but VS valued itself to highly. I wonder if that will change now....
Since 2010: DL, KL, AF, WX, IG, FR , FL, U2, AK, BA, OK, UX, VS, VN, K6, AT, US, AY, BE, EI, LG, AZ, 9W, SG, AA, JL, W6
 
AIR MALTA
Posts: 1733
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2001 6:45 am

RE: VS To Block IAG

Mon Jan 16, 2012 4:28 pm

I the following article, it is said that BMI has cash enough until March.

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/424c7...0-3b9b-11e1-a09a-00144feabdc0.html

This means the deal should be closed before that or BMI will go bust as I do not see LH injecting more money. This does not exclude the fact that IAG might inject money (as they did already) into BMI against a guarantee in form of LHR slots.
Next flights : BRU-ZRH-CAI (LX)/ BRU-FCO-TLV (AZ)
 
staralliance85
Posts: 181
Joined: Sat Jul 02, 2011 3:29 am

RE: VS To Block IAG

Mon Jan 16, 2012 4:57 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 36):

Why is everyone so concerned for Singapore Air, they know they own 49% and not 51%. Its time for Virgin to join something and move on from the parallysis that has been the SQ 49% investment. Delta would make a decent partner since VS flies from many cities to LHR that SA)">DL doesn't and a JFK-LHR type shuttle could be done too. By joining an alliance doesn't mean an investment will be made by Delta or another group into VS, ownership between the Virgin group & SQ doesn't have to change.


Back in the Summer of 2011, SA)">DL and AF/KL gave VS a great offer! I would be suprised if VS chooses ST over *A. VS already has good relationships with *A carriers such as SA) and Svea Flyg (Sweden)">SI,Air China, ANA, SA)">CO and SA. VS does Not have a partnership with one ST carrier. ST Does Not offer VS much significance except SA)">DL's hub at JFK. VS has a much broader network at *A hubs in North America (EWR, ORD, IAD, SFO LAX and YVR(Summer 2012)). VS is nowhere to be found at ATL, DTW, MSP and SEA. HAving *A backing to compete with IAG and OW is so much better than ST!!!
brad Fitzpatrick
 
mikey72
Posts: 1439
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2009 1:31 pm

RE: VS To Block IAG

Mon Jan 16, 2012 4:59 pm

Quoting speedmarque (Reply 38):
They are worthless to an alliance. No unique routes or feeder traffic.

When 11 of of your total 18 daily LHR departures are to the U.S.A and on all of 'them' you compete aginst BA/AA and the frequency they offer ?

VS is vastly out-gunned in this market so what do they offer to an alliance ?

It's like a small airline trying to take on LH/UA at FRA. Or KL/DL at AMS. (Or BA/AA at LHR (There seems to be a pattern))

Nobody is stupid enough to waste their money trying.

Well not after this latest fiasco with LH and BD and before that SQ's doomed equity stake in VS.

£600M...ouch.

[Edited 2012-01-16 09:01:18]
Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
 
VictorKilo
Posts: 170
Joined: Wed Jul 05, 2006 7:39 am

RE: VS To Block IAG

Mon Jan 16, 2012 5:17 pm

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 39):
This is it in a nutshell. Commercially, what does Virgin offer STAR that they haven't already got? Same goes for SkyTeam.

Virgin only has 21 daily flights from LHR.

JFK x 3
LAX x 2
EWR x 2
ACC
BOS
CPT
DEL
DXB
HKG-SYD
IAD
JNB
LOS
MIA
NBO
NRT
PVG
SFO

Nine of these are to Star Alliance Hubs (LAX x 2, EWR x 2, SFO, IAD, CPT, JNB, NRT). Nine of the 21 are to SkyTeam hubs or to locations DL serves from LHR (BOS, MIA, LAX x 2, JFK x 3, PVG, NBO). DL can also use one of the other slots to move over DL's ATL-LGW service, and US could use one of the other slots to do the same for CLT-LGW.

I think VS can be leveraged by either SkyTeam or Star Alliance to complement each alliance's existing long-haul services from its hubs located outside of Europe to LHR. But with only 21 flights, this is a niche role, and reduces the urgency by which either alliance will be moving to seal the deal.
 
UAL777UK
Posts: 2107
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2005 1:16 am

RE: VS To Block IAG

Mon Jan 16, 2012 5:44 pm

Quoting richardw (Reply 34):
Would SQ divest before VS joined SkyTeam?

Why would they need to?

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 36):
Why is everyone so concerned for Singapore Air, they know they own 49% and not 51%.

Exactly. SQ are not in a position to dictate where or what VS does, they have mnade it clear before that they want out if someone gives them the right money.

Quoting VictorKilo (Reply 45):
But with only 21 flights, this is a niche role, and reduces the urgency by which either alliance will be moving to seal the deal.

I can see the big boys looking down on VS, watching like vultures. VS needs them more than they need VS. If any alliance "wants" them I think its ST, I really do not see what threy bring top the table with Star. Perhaps thaey will all just watch VS get squeezed until they themselves have to sell out?
 
anstar
Posts: 2862
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2003 3:49 am

RE: VS To Block IAG

Mon Jan 16, 2012 5:59 pm

Quoting lhr380 (Reply 17):
Typical response really. Just look at ATI trans Atlantic, VS were so against it, even painting planes with NO WAY BA/AA Slogans, and as soon as BA and AA finally got it, what do VS do, they get it for themselves as well.

Who do Virgin have ATI with???

Quoting LGWGate49 (Reply 23):
I understand that currently the price IAG will pay LH has been negotiated as being dependent on BD's 2012 Q1 results. These will hardly be helped by the continued uncertainty over BD's future, and could end up with IAG paying less as a result.

This is what Virgin's bid was built up on. Go with a cheaper offer from us or face months and perhaps years of uncertainty with a higher IAG bid.

Quoting staralliance85 (Reply 24):
I totally disagree. VS is better off with *A than ST , in order to compete with IAG.

*A seem to be shunning VS more and more.. LH with the BMI takeover and CO/UA terminating the codeshare FF agreeement.

Quoting richardw (Reply 25):
How important are the leisure long hauls from LGW and MAN to their profits?

Quite - I believe they are just as important as LHR busness routes - esp in a downturn.

Quoting commavia (Reply 29):
To be expected, of course

And wouldnt you do the same if you were in the same spot? it would be stupid not to!
 
mikey72
Posts: 1439
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2009 1:31 pm

RE: VS To Block IAG

Mon Jan 16, 2012 6:27 pm

Quoting anstar (Reply 47):
And wouldnt you do the same if you were in the same spot? it would be stupid not to!

To what end ?

The entire landscape has changed dramatically since VS started operations. They have not adapted at all.

In that time their nearest rival BA has joined an alliance, embarked upon anti-trust immunities and merged with another carrier.

'Interestingly' BA's nearest rivals in Europe also joined alliances, embarked upon anti-trust immunities and merged with other carriers.

Funny that.

VS is the only scheduled full service carrier in EUROPE not to have embarked upon 'any' of these advancements let alone all 3.

Yet VS will quite happily attempt to do business with LH who have acted just as BA have in adapting to a changing environment. The competition authorities should consider that fact in this ridiculous attempt to block.

Even after all these failings they still have the 'gall' to paint BA as the villain.

So to answer your question 'no' I wouldn't do the same. I'd be asking my team why the hell we allowed ourselves to get backed into this corner.
Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
 
kiwiandrew

RE: VS To Block IAG

Mon Jan 16, 2012 6:39 pm

Quoting anstar (Reply 47):
And wouldnt you do the same if you were in the same spot? it would be stupid not to!

While that is true up to a point it ignores the fact that the employees of BD end up being 'hostages' to this process.

If VS were presenting a genuine, workable offer for BD that would be one thing, but sadly, I believe that they are just indulging in 'spoiler' tactics to make life more difficult for the winning* bidder, IAG. While that may be good business sense it is a pretty heartless thing to do with so many jobs hanging in the balance.

* ( and 'winning' is arguable, in my opinion, while IAG stand to gain some slots which they have desperately wanted for a very long time they are also accepting a pretty large risk in taking this on. At a time of high fuel prices, insane taxes, and economic uncertainty, they are proposing to spend a considerable sum of money taking on the remnants of a failing/failed business. While I will be very sad to see BD disappear I feel it has to be acknowledged that IAG are not being given a gift of a viable business on a platter for a knockdown price here, they are going to have do a lot of very hard work in a very short time to have a chance of transforming this deal into something which justifies the investment made. I am sure that there must have been at least a few voices within BA pointing out that left to itself BD would disappear complete in a matter of months giving BA the chance to grab at least some of their slots in a depressed market without having to make the risky investment of acquiring BD)

The IAG offer is, in my opinion, the only one with any prospect of saving the jobs of a reasonable portion of the current BD workforce, but the clock is ticking, the airline is losing money at an unsustainable rate, and if VS muddy the waters enough to delay this deal BD could run out of money, or IAG could run out of patience. Either case would have the same result, thousands of BD staff out of jobs, and, at the end of it, having had their moment in the spotlight as a result of this publicity stunt, VS will just wash their hands of the matter and walk on to the next photo-op/ sound bite.

If anyone can offer any evidence to show that VS are making a genuine offer which they have the means and will to follow through on I would be interested to see it. If I were an employee of BD I think I would be pretty pissed off at VS right now.