Gonzalo
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Germania A 319 Lands In Wrong Runway In LPA

Wed Jan 18, 2012 2:26 pm

Just found this in Simon's site.
Luck was playing a role again, with no traffics in the runway when incident happened.

That is a busy airport this time of the year, could be a mess if some vehicle was crossing the runway at the time.

http://www.avherald.com/h?article=4496ce95&opt=0


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Semaex
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RE: Germania A 319 Lands In Wrong Runway In LPA

Wed Jan 18, 2012 4:24 pm

... even more interesting considering the weather conditions were nowhere near IFR.

My wild guess is a tired crew in a crowded environment.

However, can someone explain this part:
the tower controller told the Germania crew an "ear full", the crew responded "sorry" multiple times.

Is an "ear full" a secret code given by spanish ATCs to german pilots that I'm not aware of??
// You know you're an aviation enthusiast when you look at your neighbour's cars and think about fleet commonality.
 
lhr380
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RE: Germania A 319 Lands In Wrong Runway In LPA

Wed Jan 18, 2012 4:27 pm

Quoting Semaex (Reply 1):

I guess hat should say "gave" the crew an ear full
(The views on this site are my own and no one elses)
 
B747forever
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RE: Germania A 319 Lands In Wrong Runway In LPA

Wed Jan 18, 2012 4:53 pm

Ouch, that is really bad. What happens to the pilot in a situation like this?
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flyingalex
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RE: Germania A 319 Lands In Wrong Runway In LPA

Wed Jan 18, 2012 5:12 pm

Quoting Semaex (Reply 1):
... even more interesting considering the weather conditions were nowhere near IFR.

Who says they were on an IFR approach? Clearances for a visual approach are not uncommon at Canarian airports.

Then all it would have taken would have been for the crew to misunderstand or confuse right and left.

Quoting Semaex (Reply 1):
Is an "ear full" a secret code given by spanish ATCs to german pilots that I'm not aware of??

It's a British idiom, similar in meaning to "he gave them a piece of his mind." In German I would say Er hat Ihnen ordentlich die Meinung gegeigt.
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flyingalex
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RE: Germania A 319 Lands In Wrong Runway In LPA

Wed Jan 18, 2012 5:21 pm

Quoting B747forever (Reply 3):
Ouch, that is really bad. What happens to the pilot in a situation like this?

A coffee with the airline's Chief Pilot, at which they'll get an earful from him. Possibly a fine from the Spanish aviation authority.

Probably not more than that, because luckily nothing happened as a result of their mistake.
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GolfBravoRomeo
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RE: Germania A 319 Lands In Wrong Runway In LPA

Wed Jan 18, 2012 5:27 pm

Quoting flyingalex (Reply 4):
Who says they were on an IFR approach? Clearances for a visual approach are not uncommon at Canarian airports.

[quote=flyingalex,reply=4]Then all it would have taken would have been for the crew to misunderstand or confuse right and left.

One a visual one should always tune in the localizer if there is one. Won't help if they set up for wrong runway but sure can help finding the right one vs. a parallel or taxiway.
 
peterjohns
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RE: Germania A 319 Lands In Wrong Runway In LPA

Wed Jan 18, 2012 7:39 pm

Very interesting
But an easy thing to do. Someone mistook L and R.
Was the landing clearance readback correct? We don´t know.
If something would have happened- the TWR Controller would have to answer some awkward questions as well...
But mistaking L and R is quite a common thing in my experience, it happens every now and then- and I have done it as well.
Mostly- if it is important to have the right RWY, one would check the Radar, or visually.
If a plane is cleared to line-up, one checks the approach sector for traffic. Before an acft lands, the pilot looks out and can see if the rwy is vacant.
It is notable however, how both pilots missed it.
 
wilco737
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RE: Germania A 319 Lands In Wrong Runway In LPA

Wed Jan 18, 2012 7:44 pm

Quoting peterjohns (Reply 7):

Well said. It happens to all of us. But there are systems these days which are helpful. All our LH airplanes have a system calles RAAS. It calls out the runway you are approaching. So in FRA when you are cleared for 25C and appraoch 25L the system calls out "approaching 25L". Then I always double check: "Am I correct here? Were we cleared for 25L?" If not, I NOW have time to react: GO AROUND.
And the ATC guys have an eye on us as well (Thanks for that). If they are not sure, they ask us and double check or remind us on which runway we are cleared.

but even all theses things make such an incident described above possible. We are all human beings and we make mistakes. But we all hope that someone or we ourself see the mistake and correct it...

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B747forever
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RE: Germania A 319 Lands In Wrong Runway In LPA

Wed Jan 18, 2012 7:56 pm

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 8):
Well said. It happens to all of us

Yes it might happen, but it should not be acceptable at all. It is quite worrying if you as a pilot cannot land on the correct runway.
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wilco737
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RE: Germania A 319 Lands In Wrong Runway In LPA

Wed Jan 18, 2012 8:03 pm

Quoting B747forever (Reply 9):
Yes it might happen, but it should not be acceptable at all. It is quite worrying if you as a pilot cannot land on the correct runway.

Oh, note to myself: "never make a mistake again". Will I be successful? No.

Of course mistakes shouldn't happen, but we are no machines, we are human beings and we make mistakes...
I did not excuse that mistake at all, they made a mistake and I am sure at least within the company it will have consequences.

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B747forever
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RE: Germania A 319 Lands In Wrong Runway In LPA

Wed Jan 18, 2012 8:11 pm

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 10):
Of course mistakes shouldn't happen, but we are no machines, we are human beings and we make mistakes...

Yes, but such a blatant mistake should not even happen. Pilots go through so rigorous training, yet simple mistakes like these happens. Similarly I dont understand how one could even land/takeoff from a taxiway. But I guess mistakes happens in every profession...
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peterjohns
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RE: Germania A 319 Lands In Wrong Runway In LPA

Wed Jan 18, 2012 8:12 pm

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 8):
Well said.

Thanks Wilco
As it happens- I work at FRA ATC! thats why we understand each other!
But I work in the Area Control Centre- meaning I sometimes advise a/c to TURN L or R.
Sometimes they turn the wrong way... Just have to keep an eye on them- a lot like little children thinking about it...!!

Quoting B747forever (Reply 9):

You miss the problem. The pilots were believing to land on the right (the correct) RWY. Why did they mix up L and R?
Or did they? Did the controller give the correct RWY?
this is how it happens- The left one is blocked- don´t give him the left one -use the other one than left- Cleared to land on left...
 
wilco737
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RE: Germania A 319 Lands In Wrong Runway In LPA

Wed Jan 18, 2012 8:14 pm

Quoting peterjohns (Reply 12):
Just have to keep an eye on them- a lot like little children thinking about it...!!

Yes please   Always have an eye on us. The safer we all are.

Quoting peterjohns (Reply 12):
You miss the problem. The pilots were believing to land on the right (the correct) RWY. Why did they mix up L and R?
Or did they? Did the controller give the correct RWY?
this is how it happens- The left one is blocked- don´t give him the left one -use the other one than left- Cleared to land on left...

True. So many things can go wrong. And Spanish ATC is not easy for non Spanish speaking pilots as the locals all speak Spanish, so you don't have a clue what is going on around you... It is difficult.

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flyingalex
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RE: Germania A 319 Lands In Wrong Runway In LPA

Wed Jan 18, 2012 8:48 pm

Quoting B747forever (Reply 11):

Yes, but such a blatant mistake should not even happen. Pilots go through so rigorous training, yet simple mistakes like these happens. Similarly I dont understand how one could even land/takeoff from a taxiway. But I guess mistakes happens in every profession...

Landing on a taxiway rather than on a runway is a lot bigger mistake than landing on 21L rather than 21R. I'm not trying to excuse what happened, but I can quite easily understand how it could happen.

There's a saying in German: "He who works, makes mistakes. He who works a lot makes a lot of mistakes. He who makes no mistakes is a lazy bum." Germania's pilots made a mistake that was easy to make, and as I said before, luckily it had no further consequences. Rest assured it's a mistake that these two pilots are unlikely to make again - they'll double- and triple-check from now on.
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LGWflyer
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RE: Germania A 319 Lands In Wrong Runway In LPA

Wed Jan 18, 2012 9:09 pm

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 13):
True. So many things can go wrong. And Spanish ATC is not easy for non Spanish speaking pilots as the locals all speak Spanish, so you don't have a clue what is going on around you... It is difficult.

Interesting I always thought it was just France that spoke they're own language to the "locals". Is Germany just out of interest all English speaking or...?
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JRadier
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RE: Germania A 319 Lands In Wrong Runway In LPA

Wed Jan 18, 2012 9:24 pm

I'm not going to guess what happened here, but I would like to hear the radio tapes. I have been on the jumpseat for an approach at LPA where we were cleared for 03L, but when switching to tower they told us we should be approaching 03R. While performing a sidestep we were informed that 03L was available.... After crossing the threshold a TUIfly 737 got permission to cross 03L and line-up 03R. The JetairFly 737 behind us on approach (on 03R) then rightfully questioned this clearance, after which it was offered 03L. All in all not a solid performance by ATC at that time and I am wondering it a similar thing might have been involved here.
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flyingalex
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RE: Germania A 319 Lands In Wrong Runway In LPA

Wed Jan 18, 2012 9:27 pm

Quoting LGWflyer (Reply 15):
Interesting I always thought it was just France that spoke they're own language to the "locals". Is Germany just out of interest all English speaking or...?

I'd say mostly English-speaking. At smaller aerodromes, German will be spoken on frequency. Clearances and the like will almost always be in English at larger airports, but there might be some chatter in German.

In general though, any country anywhere can speak with its locals in its local language. I did part of my flight training in Croatia, and there were plenty of pilots on frequency who only spoke to the controllers in Croatian and vice-versa.
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Gonzalo
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RE: Germania A 319 Lands In Wrong Runway In LPA

Wed Jan 18, 2012 10:25 pm

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 13):
Spanish ATC is not easy for non Spanish speaking pilots as the locals all speak Spanish, so you don't have a clue what is going on around you... It is difficult.

Very true, same in CDG. The problem is, this affects the situational awareness of non local pilots who don't understand the local language, there are things happening around them and they are not sure about who is doing what. Not a good thing in an airport IMHO.

Quoting JRadier (Reply 16):
I'm not going to guess what happened here, but I would like to hear the radio tapes. I have been on the jumpseat for an approach at LPA where we were cleared for 03L, but when switching to tower they told us we should be approaching 03R. While performing a sidestep we were informed that 03L was available.... After crossing the threshold a TUIfly 737 got permission to cross 03L and line-up 03R. The JetairFly 737 behind us on approach (on 03R) then rightfully questioned this clearance, after which it was offered 03L. All in all not a solid performance by ATC at that time and I am wondering it a similar thing might have been involved here.

This show how busy can be LPA in January. Precisely this makes the incident so serious, although I agree with Wilco, this things happens. In fact, according to IATA analysis for 2011 ( Re Safety /Accidents ) , Runway Incursions is again at the top of the list of safety issues, three years in a row.

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RE: Germania A 319 Lands In Wrong Runway In LPA

Thu Jan 19, 2012 8:09 am

Quoting B747forever (Reply 9):
Yes it might happen, but it should not be acceptable at all. It is quite worrying if you as a pilot cannot land on the correct runway.

I think every pilot is capable of landing on the right runway. And pilots is a professional group in our society that make very few mistakes compared to other less monitored professions. I would be more surprised if such mistakes never happened. And there are systems and procedures to prevent mistakes like this.
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flyinTLow
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RE: Germania A 319 Lands In Wrong Runway In LPA

Thu Jan 19, 2012 10:30 am

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 8):
Quoting peterjohns (Reply 7):
All our LH airplanes have a system calles RAAS. It calls out the runway you are approaching. So in FRA when you are cleared for 25C and appraoch 25L the system calls out "approaching 25L". (...)
wilco737

Not correct. It is not installed on the A320 family, and as far as I know not on the A330/340 either.
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wilco737
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RE: Germania A 319 Lands In Wrong Runway In LPA

Thu Jan 19, 2012 10:32 am

Quoting flyinTLow (Reply 20):

Oh really? Thought all airplanes received it by now. Got a wrong information then. Sorry.

wilco737
  
 
r2rho
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RE: Germania A 319 Lands In Wrong Runway In LPA

Thu Jan 19, 2012 12:32 pm

For those unfamiliar with the airport, LPA 's two runways are only about 200m / 700ft apart, and there is no taxiway between them. On the west side you have the civil airport, on the east the military airbase. I can see how there can be a confusion under IFR, but if visibility is good there shouldn't be any problem, sounds like a communication problem between crew and ATC.
 
JRadier
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RE: Germania A 319 Lands In Wrong Runway In LPA

Thu Jan 19, 2012 1:37 pm

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 18):
This show how busy can be LPA in January.

To be fair it was July last year, but still shows how ops at LPA can be....
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thrufru
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RE: Germania A 319 Lands In Wrong Runway In LPA

Thu Jan 19, 2012 1:53 pm

Having flown several years now during the summer holiday season operating for Transavia and ArkeFly between Amsterdam and many of the airports in the Canary Islands, I can assure everyone of two things:

1. The controllers in the Canary Islands have a more than adequate command of English, both on a conversational level, but more importantly in regards to using standard aviation phraseology.

2. It is very common in my experience at LPA to be cleared for an approach to 3L/21R and at a very low altitude to be instructed to side-step to 3R/21L. I've actually never landed on or departed from 3L/21R.

I'd be more inclined to believe that the crew, through previous experience at LPA, probably expected the side-step to 21L, and to avoid maneuvering at low altitude just lined up with 21L, wasn't given the side-step, and simply forgot they were actually cleared to 21R.

Familiarity with any particular airport or airspace can actually lead to more mistakes. When we've become accustomed to expect the same thing over and over again and then we get something different, we often have a challenge integrating/implementing the new instructions.

How many of us have ever played those word games where we've been so conditioned to give a certain response that when the final question is asked, we respond to that simple/obvious question automatically and without thinking, incorrectly, of course.
 
GolfBravoRomeo
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RE: Germania A 319 Lands In Wrong Runway In LPA

Thu Jan 19, 2012 5:26 pm

Quoting thrufru (Reply 24):
2. It is very common in my experience at LPA to be cleared for an approach to 3L/21R and at a very low altitude to be instructed to side-step to 3R/21L. I've actually never landed on or departed from 3L/21R.

I'd be more inclined to believe that the crew, through previous experience at LPA, probably expected the side-step to 21L, and to avoid maneuvering at low altitude just lined up with 21L, wasn't given the side-step, and simply forgot they were actually cleared to 21R.

In cases where the clearance is for something relatively uncommon the controller can really be helpful in the way he delivers that clearance. Rather than just "Clear to land 21R" something like "Clear to land 21R, 22L is unavailable because.....". Even "Clear to land 21R. That's right side today" can go long way.
 
LGWflyer
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RE: Germania A 319 Lands In Wrong Runway In LPA

Thu Jan 19, 2012 8:06 pm

Quoting flyingalex (Reply 17):

I'd say mostly English-speaking. At smaller aerodromes, German will be spoken on frequency. Clearances and the like will almost always be in English at larger airports, but there might be some chatter in German.

In general though, any country anywhere can speak with its locals in its local language. I did part of my flight training in Croatia, and there were plenty of pilots on frequency who only spoke to the controllers in Croatian and vice-versa.

Ahh right I see, thanks for answering.  
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